What are the Best and Worst units in Conquest

[Shadow Mir]

43 minutes ago, Deltre said:

You're being absolutely ridiculous. Everything you've typed can be construed as "I don't like him" which is fine, but doesn't have any bearing on statistical fact. If you're really going to make me go through the game and point out how many instances Silas is capable of doubling, then I really don't know what to tell you other than to possibly re-evaluate your own abilities at this game. If "attack with Silas before I heal" is too complex then it's honestly a personal issue.

The three ways I outlined are very organic in nature and are going to happen whether you plan for it or not, end of story. If you're paying even slight attention to Corrin's health, and Silas can safely attack something, then you can use his skill. 

Furthermore, even if I was wrong about his speed (which I'm not considering you're the only one still on this point), it would be up to you to provide proof that he isn't, not the other way around. Either way, my "statistical backing" is the game itself, which I assume you must have access to as well as I if you're really this insistent on arguing this. Turn on the game and do the math. 

I never said I don't like him, so don't put words in my mouth. And why the hell are you singling me out when I'm hardly the only one who thinks Silas has speed issues?

[ruruo]

1 hour ago, Extrasolar said:

Silas is reliable in my opinion, but definitely not one of the better units in Conquest. He's a very bog-standard cavalier: He won't necessarily struggle, but he's also not anything special. I think the experience used to train him can be better used on a more useful unit, personally.

At the very least, Keaton is better at tanking mages than Xander; despite having bad resistance, it's not quite as paper as Xander's. Not to mention, his better speed means that he doubles some of the time, whereas Xander doubling is a very rare event (not that he needs to most of the time, and both are good units in my book). And he's got Better Odds, while Xander doesn't have a comparable healing skill, meaning that you won't really have to waste staff uses on Keaton unless it's a real emergency.

I like Silas because he's bog standard and reliable. I know what to expect out of him, Shelter is nice, he's good for ferrying people around, and arrive early enough to get good weapon ranks. I don't think he needs to entirely rely on VoF either, as lots of people has mentioned.

With all due respect, though I brought up the mage thing in the first place, I meant it more in the way of "I don't want to have another low resistance unit on the field" as opposed to "Xander can tank mages". Ideally neither of them should be tanking mages lol. 

Also I think when it comes to doubling, there's units that's great for that, like Mozu, Kaze, Niles, Haitaka, swordsmaster!Odin to name a few. I don't understand why Silas is being judged on if he can double or not, since personally when I use him, he not someone I rely to do so anyway (and neither Xander; cavs never had that sort of game breaking speed in fe anyway). 

[Extrasolar]

4 minutes ago, komasa said:

I like Silas because he's bog standard and reliable. I know what to expect out of him, Shelter is nice, he's good for ferrying people around, and arrive early enough to get good weapon ranks. I don't think he needs to entirely rely on VoF either, as lots of people has mentioned.

With all due respect, though I brought up the mage thing in the first place, I meant it more in the way of "I don't want to have another low resistance unit on the field" as opposed to "Xander can tank mages". Ideally neither of them should be tanking mages lol. 

Also I think when it comes to doubling, there's units that's great for that, like Mozu, Kaze, Niles, Haitaka, swordsmaster!Odin to name a few. I don't understand why Silas is being judged on if he can double or not, since personally when I use him, he not someone I rely to do so anyway (and neither Xander; cavs never had that sort of game breaking speed in fe anyway). 

Yeah, I'm not saying he can't be useful, but in a question of "which units are the best in Conquest," I think that Silas just plain doesn't make the cut, especially in comparison to people like Xander.

Fair enough. Just bringing up that Keaton has a much better chance of surviving a mage attack than Xander, with a better stat spread in speed.

The majority of Conquest units can't double, so I agree that doubling shouldn't be something that marks down Silas. But again, I definitely don't see him as one of the best units.

[Deltre]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I never said I don't like him, so don't put words in my mouth. And why the hell are you singling me out when I'm hardly the only one who thinks Silas has speed issues?

I'm not singling you out for saying he has speed issues, something I brought up as a possibility from the start mind you, I'm doing it because asking me to play through a 20+ hour game and record benchmarks to prove myself is a ridiculous request when you haven't done anything to refute the fact that it's a non-issue early game. I've been saying since the beginning that he has a possibility of falling off late game. I mistook your intentions and I take responsibility for that, but it really feels like you're arguing to argue here, that was more my point.

I just checked and I do happen to have a save file at C9 Lunatic on hand so let's look at some numbers since I don't have to go out of my way really. 

Spoiler

L8 Silas- 22 HP 12 STR 0 MAG 11 SKL 9 SPD 9 LCK 12 DEF 6 RES

Bold = Above Average

Italics = Below Average

With these stats he can ORKO every Archer on the map (who have 8 SPE each) with Speed Tonic + Arthur Pairup, a feat that no one else can claim besides Corrin and Jakob if reclassed. Similarly, he's the only unit you have that can take a Spear Fighter hit, take the Defense Seal, and then take another hit if you give him an HP tonic, once again excluding Corrin and Jakob. Effie can as well, but she demands both Pair-Up and Speed Tonic if she wants to face the paired-up Spear Fighters, since they'll double her at less than 9 Speed, and at the very least a Speed Tonic/Pair-Up to take on the single Spear Fighters.

Basically, besides your God units, he's really the only one who can get anything done on Enemy Phase in the early game. Effie is worth mentioning too but she demands more resources (in this case, a pair-up in order to simply survive) or slower playstyle to make it happen, hence Silas is the better unit. 

I didn't even bring up Elbow Room, but that basically makes him 3-12 points stronger than most of your other guys depending on the situation. In the early game, that can be up to half of an enemy's health right there, without even factoring in Silas's own strength and weapon power. It snowballs very, very quickly if you have a good Silas, and remains very useful even if you only have an average one. 

TL;DR He's good during a time when most of your units suck. He might fall off late game but by then Xander and friends are rolling over everything so it doesn't matter and even then he's still pretty aight. 

Edited March 3, 2017 by Deltre

[ruruo]

@Extrasolar I agree that Silas isn't the god a lot of people make him out to be. I still use him on every run due to reliability and utility. If I wanted another Cav to go with Xander, out of the choices I have, I'd take him over Peri or GK!Effie.

Xander is almost the Seth of Fates. A lot of units pale in comparison to him.  If I were asked to make a choice over either only Keaton or only Xander, I'd take Xander. Even though I do agree that Keaton is a good unit in his own right. Dropping Keaton on my Lunatic run wasn't a easy decision, since I had a very good impression of him from my Hard run. 

Other than Xander, I think Niles is pretty neat for Conquest. I also like archer!Mozu a lot but don't want to be involved in a debate over whether she's god or poop. Each to their own in her case ;)

In terms of bad units I don't know... There's units I'd never touch like Nyx, Arthur, or Charlotte. Can't really make a proper judgement on units I don't use. It's hard imo to pinpoint a truly a terrible unusable unit in fates, since if someone wanted to salvage a unit, it's entirely possible. We're not in the days where we had to sieve out utter rubbish.

[Frenzify]

I came in here expecting people to say Nyx is presumably the worst, and it appears that that's the case with a lot of people. Doesnt change the fact that she's still my favourite unit to use. She really didn't seem bad to me. She had amazing magic, and high enough speed to usually double and kill units in one turn, if I remember my conquest run right. I guess I just never overextended her much for her squishiness to be a real issue.

And if I'm remembering right, I think Keaton ended up being one of my more difficult units to keep alive. In some maps I think he was the one I was overextending, which is probably why, so it's hard to judge if he was bad, or I was just using him badly. And the more I try to remember, the more I remember him being given pretty good, but I was making some pretty stupid decisions.

While I don't know about the best I will say Charlotte is a really good unit if you level her up and give her the right skills, because she'd very likely be a crit monster, and one round most enemies. Survivability-wise she wasn't great, but pairing her with Benny helped a little. Somewhat related to her, Benny was probably my best tank in my conquest run, so I would have to say he was one of my best units. I don't know about Effie, since I didn't use her, but Benny served me perfectly well.

I did also like Xander's bulkiness, but I think I tried not to just leave tanking and destroying everything up to him. But yeah, he's without a doubt one of the better units in the game. I used Peri for a large portion of the game, I think, as well as Silas, and Xander was clearly the best cavalier... Don't ask why I was using three cavaliers.

One more unit I found did exceptionally well was Felicia. She tanked mages pretty damn well, and give her a flame shuriken and she'd put out good damage, too, doubling a lot of the time. I think I remember her being good at taking out armour units with that.

[Qilin]

I don't know if my Odin was getting screwed by the RNG or what, but I actually put in effort to train him and still needed to give up him. Nyx ended up being my go-to magic attacker and was more durable than Odin too, somehow. Arthur was benched as well, but at least he proved himself useful in the chapters I had him, removed gamble as soon as he learned it and he was good to go again. Arthur got benched when better units showed up to fill the roster, Odin on the other hand was actively removed because that's just how bad he got in my lunatic run...

[DoesntKnowHowToPlay]

Which one was holding the Nosferatu tome? It takes some extreme RNG screwage for Nyx to get fatter than Odin.

[joshcja]

Nyx averages 30/12/23 @ 20/20 in sorc.

Odin averages 29/12/11 at 20/0 (unpromoted)

Both will cap Mag because it's conquest and everyone who uses mag caps mag in conquest. (Nyx in Sorc does not hit any relevant benchmarks with her slight capped mag lead)

So yes that's nigh impossible RNG screwage unless you just blatantly fucked up by not throwing Odin into the largest groups of enemies on the map with Nos superglued to his hands (Odin should be 10+ at Nyx's join with comparable mag/speed in even the strictest possible settings on any lunatic run using Odin). Or you just fed Nyx over and over with PP kills and fed her boosters.

Edited March 4, 2017 by joshcja

[Dark Holy Elf]

20/15 Sorc Odin averages 26 Mag. His cap is 36. He most certainly does not cap Mag on average.

[Extrasolar]

1 hour ago, joshcja said:

Both will cap Mag because it's conquest and everyone who uses mag caps mag in conquest. (Nyx in Sorc does not hit any relevant benchmarks with her slight capped mag lead)

So yes that's nigh impossible RNG screwage unless you just blatantly fucked up by not throwing Odin into the largest groups of enemies on the map with Nos superglued to his hands (Odin should be 10+ at Nyx's join with comparable mag/speed in even the strictest possible settings on any lunatic run using Odin). Or you just fed Nyx over and over with PP kills and fed her boosters.

Throwing Odin into a gigantic group of enemies, even with Nosferatu, is the quickest way to get him killed. He simply doesn't have enough tankiness or avoid to survive, nor does he deal all that much damage. He'll at best three-round an enemy with decent resistance.

5 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

20/15 Sorc Odin averages 26 Mag. His cap is 36. He most certainly does not cap Mag on average.

This. Not sure where @joshcja is getting their error-filled stats from.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Extrasolar

[joshcja]

48 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

20/15 Sorc Odin averages 26 Mag. His cap is 36. He most certainly does not cap Mag on average.

I didn't say he capped naturally, that would be ignorant as all hell. I said any unit that uses mag in conquest will probably cap magic, this is completely true.

Kinda like Xander has a tenancy to run around with a fucknormous res stat.

Edited March 4, 2017 by joshcja

[DoesntKnowHowToPlay]

yeah odin has shit bulk and no avoid and can't pierce res, terrible unit would never recommend ever dies to any sort of pressure

(this is lunatic, that's him holding leo at the bottom)

[Extrasolar]

8 minutes ago, joshcja said:

I didn't say he capped naturally that would be ignorant as all hell. I said any unit that uses mag in conquest will probably cap magic.

Kinda like Xander has a tenancy to run around with a fucknormous res stat.

...You just contradicted yourself. You say that any unit that uses magic in Conquest caps magic...and then just said that Odin doesn't cap magic. What. Unless you mean after stuffing him full of magic-raising items?

...And Xander's resistance is very low. Am I in some sort of opposite dimension right now?

 

3 minutes ago, DoesntKnowHowToPlay said:

yeah odin has shit bulk and no avoid and can't pierce res, terrible unit would never recommend ever dies to any sort of pressure

(this is lunatic, that's him holding leo at the bottom)

What? It's an image of the minimap? What does that prove? Not to mention, it's just a bunch of dots. It's impossible to tell which unit is which.

[DoesntKnowHowToPlay]

Do you not recognize what map that is?

[Extrasolar]

Just now, DoesntKnowHowToPlay said:

Do you not recognize what map that is?

I recognize it. The Faceless chapter where you have to have all your units escape. So? They have a long haul to get to the top and escape with the rest. I mean, that's what it proves.

[joshcja]

Yes, you're in a magical land where stat boosters do not exist. (Doesn't is allergic to stat boosters btw so that may be base Odin)

Edited March 4, 2017 by joshcja

[Extrasolar]

Just now, joshcja said:

Yes, you're in a magical land where stat boosters do not exist. (Doesn't is allergic to stat boosters btw so that may be base Odin)

...Except literally every unit can be good if you shove a ton of stat boosts down their throat. Like, I'm not sure how this makes Odin a good unit on principle. We're speaking on base units here. Base Odin is nowhere near capping magic on average.

Just falling back on "not worth shoving a ton of stat boosters into him with the limited resources that you get in Conquest, when you have much better base units that don't require a ton of money funneling."

[DoesntKnowHowToPlay]

It proves that I was able to just leave Odin in the face of unlimited constant staircase hell reinforcements for 50 turns, which kind of goes against this:

Throwing Odin into a gigantic group of enemies, even with Nosferatu, is the quickest way to get him killed. He simply doesn't have enough tankiness or avoid to survive, nor does he deal all that much damage. He'll at best three-round an enemy with decent resistance.

(if you weren't aware, those guys have grisly wound and wary fighter on lunatic, and yes that is without any boosters)

[Extrasolar]

7 minutes ago, DoesntKnowHowToPlay said:

It proves that I was able to just leave Odin in the face of unlimited constant staircase hell reinforcements for 50 turns, which kind of goes against this:

 

 

(if you weren't aware, those guys have grisly wound and wary fighter on lunatic, and yes that is without any boosters)

Even though there's no way of knowing which units are actually there considering you're not highlighting them with your cursor. You're essentially just saying we have to take your word for it. I'll believe you, but it's not exactly the best evidence, is what I'm saying.

Odin and Leo, by your account, taking advantage of Pair Up stats, extra attacks, the shield block, and what have you. As Leo is naturally much tankier than Odin, with higher magic, and even Odin gets the Dark Knight healing thing (assuming you promoted him to Dark Knight) for him to scrape out HP as well as healing from a Nosferatu tome if he's equipped. I can see how he'd be able to scrape by. Pre Dark Knight, though, he's relatively squishy and cannot tank multiple strong enemies, even with Nosferatu.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Extrasolar

[joshcja]

19 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

...Except literally every unit can be good if you shove a ton of stat boosts down their throat. Like, I'm not sure how this makes Odin a good unit on principle. We're speaking on base units here. Base Odin is nowhere near capping magic on average.

Just falling back on "not worth shoving a ton of stat boosters into him with the limited resources that you get in Conquest, when you have much better base units that don't require a ton of money funneling."

No, you're speaking on base units, with no boosting, no reclassing, and no thread of common sense or logic whatsoever. I'm speaking on the way the game actually works outside of bizzaro land.

A common strat to cure Odin of his bases is to have him straight up solo invasion 1. Then have him facedive CH9, then you have him solo half the map on CH10. This trend continues until he shatters the games exp curve and walks into Leo's join between 20-2 and 20-6 with vantage, this is without dusts. He then snowballs even more absurdly out of control.

Odin is straight up immune to death even without dusts (Ok this is a lie, but anything that can kill Nos+Vantage Odin can kill every other unit in the game not named Ophelia 3 times over.). When dusted and given LoD he has a 80-90% chance of ORKOing final takumi with the forged lightning. This much higher than any non-ophelia mage because past "chapter dependent benchmark" mag is a useless stat until you hit "Ophelia's benchmark". It's not the 100% kill of dracozerk, arbitrary superstack GK corn, or Ophy but it's still top tier damage output.

Edit: are we banning pairup, guard gauge, and all non-base class skills now?

Edited March 4, 2017 by joshcja

[DoesntKnowHowToPlay]

I mean, if you want to assume I'm lying, then go ahead...

Leo is not tankier than Odin. He has incredible Res, but it turns out Res isn't nearly as important as Defense, which Odin has more of.

On average, 20/2 Sorc Odin will have 15.2 Defense to --/2 Sorc Leo's 13 Defense. Couple that with Odin's higher personal Def growth rate and he's always going to be sturdier, since Nosferatu access makes max HP mostly irrelevant (and they're extremely close anyway; less than 2 point average difference at Leo's join and Odin eventually takes the lead)

Lifetaker is mostly irrelevant at this point in the game by virtue of requiring you to hit 20/15 to learn it, which nobody reached in that run until Odin got Bowbreaker while devouring the great wall.

Edited March 4, 2017 by DoesntKnowHowToPlay

[Extrasolar]

14 minutes ago, joshcja said:

No, you're speaking on base units, with no boosting, no reclassing, and no thread of common sense or logic whatsoever. I'm speaking on the way the game actually works outside of bizzaro land.

A common strat to cure Odin of his bases is to have him straight up solo invasion 1. Then have him facedive CH9, then you have him solo half the map on CH10. This trend continues until he shatters the games exp curve and walks into Leo's join between 20-2 and 20-6 with vantage, this is without dusts. He then snowballs even more absurdly out of control.

Odin is straight up immune to death even without dusts (Ok this is a lie, but anything that can kill Nos+Vantage Odin can kill every other unit in the game not named Ophelia 3 times over). When dusted and given LoD he has a 80-90% chance of ORKOing final takumi with the forged lightning.

Edit: are we banning pairup, guard gauge, and all non-base class skills now?

Sigh. I don't think you're understanding the point of it all. Literally any unit in the game can be made viable by taking advantage of shenanigans, from reclassing, to stat boosts, and what have you. Literally. Every. Unit. But when we're talking just good units, good units don't need to fall back on those to be good/usable, like Odin does, for example. Effie, for example, will always be a great unit on the Conquest path, simply because she doesn't need to be babied, doesn't rely on being Paired Up, doesn't rely on some cheesy strat to train her into usability, doesn't need to be reclassed, doesn't need to be stuffed full of stat-raising items, or any of that, to be effective.

No, Pair Up and all that isn't banned. But having to rely on it to be considered good does not a good unit make. Good units like Effie don't need any of that to be successful (and more than that, pretty much carrying the game).

13 minutes ago, DoesntKnowHowToPlay said:

I mean, if you want to assume I'm lying, then go ahead...

Leo is not tankier than Odin. He has incredible Res, but it turns out Res isn't nearly as important as Defense, which Odin has more of.

On average, 20/2 Sorc Odin will have 15.2 Defense to --/2 Sorc Leo's 13 Defense. Couple that with Odin's higher personal Def growth rate and he's always going to be sturdier, since Nosferatu access makes max HP mostly irrelevant (and they're extremely close anyway; less than 2 point average difference at Leo's join and Odin eventually takes the lead)

Lifetaker is mostly irrelevant at this point in the game by virtue of requiring you to hit 20/15 to learn it, which nobody reached in that run until Odin got Bowbreaker while devouring the great wall.

When you're arguing you have to present good evidence. I'm not "assuming" anything. The burden of proof rests on you. I could just as easily say "there's absolutely no proof that it's Odin down there, so your argument is moot." I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Extrasolar

[joshcja]

9 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

When you're arguing you have to present good evidence.

You have never done this.

I'm pretty sure Effie is low mid or mid tier on the vast majority of lists because her early move requires constant micromanagement and babysitting and her limited re-class pool forbids strong 1-2 and flight in the midgame. While I may disagree with the idea of majority correctness you do not.

Didn't read the entire post because my brain shuts off when you type.

Edited March 4, 2017 by joshcja

[Extrasolar]

21 minutes ago, joshcja said:

You have never done this.

Alright, let's talk mediocre units.

Odin's growth rates are as follows.
 

Quote

HP 55
STR 35
MAGIC 30
SKILL 55
LUCK 60
SPEED 35
DEFENSE 40
RESISTANCE 20


So there are a ton of problems right off the bat. Speaking of averages, Odin's growths are subpar in the areas that he needs the most (magic, resistance, and if reclassed, strength, with speed also lagging behind).

He's got an terrible magic growth for a unit which starts off using magic and will primarily be using magic sans reclassing (and speaking purely of base units here; let's compare it, for example, to Nyx's 50% MAG growth and Leo's 55% MAG growth). His speed is awful as well, but that's sort of a given for Conquest units. His resistance is absolutely awful, especially on a magic-using unit. Even his Strength is subpar, so he won't be altogether useful when wielding physical weapons either if promoted to a Dark Knight. Granted, Leo has the same Strength problem, but Leo far excels in magic and resistance. He only loses a 10% growth in defense when compared to Odin, but is almost naturally tankier just speaking on base stats than a trained Odin of a similar level.

Without the aforementioned cheese strats and stat-raising items, he's of very little real use.
 

EDIT:

Quote

I'm pretty sure Effie is low mid or mid tier on the vast majority of lists because her early move requires constant micromanagement and babysitting and her limited re-class pool forbids strong 1-2 and flight in the midgame. While I may disagree with the idea of majority correctness you do not.

Didn't read the entire post because my brain shuts off when you type.

Uh. No. You must be confused, or not playing the same game. Effie is one of the highest units on Conquest tier lists, friend, because she doesn't rely on reclassing and stat-raising spamming like Odin does. Her movement isn't much of a hindrance because you can just stuff her into the middle of a horde of enemies and watch her destroy them, or use her to block a chokepoint. Her enormous strength decimates enemies, she's tanky enough to take no damage from most things, if anything, and even her lower resistance isn't as bad as Xander's.

And no, you didn't finish reading it because you know you have a niche opinion and can't stand it when people correct you with facts. And when so many people are saying "x character in x game is amazing because [reasons]," you can't just plug your ears and fall back on "lol they're wrong" because it contradicts your own opinion. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Extrasolar