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Who is the most powerful dragon boss (lore-wise)?


Most Powerful Dragon Boss (Lore-Wise)  

61 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is the most powerful dragon boss (lore-wise)?

    • Dheginsea
      9
    • Medeus
      4
    • Idenn
      0
    • Grima
      20
    • Morva
      0
    • Loptyr
      9
    • Mannu
      0
    • Anankos
      19
    • Jahn
      0
    • Garon
      0
    • Khozen
      0
    • Ein
      0
    • Ena
      0
    • Gareth
      0
    • Nasir
      0
    • Kurthnaga
      0


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6 hours ago, asdfasdfasdf said:

I have never played Tokyo Mirage Sessions, but is it canon with all the other Fire Emblem games. Isn't a crossover?

T.M.S. could be considered canon as Heroes confirms Earth to be an FE outrealm, and the future past confirms that a) there are parallel universes in FE and b) you can flee to the outrealms if your world gets destroyed, at the risk of losing your memories.

If you don't count T.M.S. my ranking becomes:

1) Anankos

2) Medius

32) Grima

Everyone else doesn't even rate.

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Grima. Anankos' got nothing on Grima. Grima would just eat Anankos for breakfast. His sheer size dwarfs an entire nation. Anankos only takes the size of a large castle at best. 

Not to mention that Grima is the only villain that truly did win in that in the original timeline, no one could stop him. Naga ended up resorting to time travel to stop him, and the only reason Grima lost is more for unforeseen circumstances. 

But Anankos does come as a close second, since he displayed some great powers as well, rivaling the likes of even Naga. 

On 3/15/2017 at 8:15 PM, Slumber said:

FE4/5 set it up like without Naga/Julia, the world would have just been completely fucked forever, and this is just to beat Loptyr's vessel, not Loptyr himself. Who the hell would have known what would have happened if Loptyr actually showed up in a physical form, rather than just channeling himself through Julius with the Book of Loptyr.

I actually disagree with this. The entire case of the blood pact is for a human to use the weapon that allows the human to have full access to the dragon's power itself. Meaning that the 17 generations of Galle and then Julius, were all humans that had Loptyr's full might. 

On 3/16/2017 at 1:14 AM, Interdimensional Observer said:

I think this begs the question- why Loptyr didn't bother just coming over to Jugdral instead of a soul transmission via blood infusion? Naga and her cohorts are obviously fighting the Earth Dragons during Loptyr's ascendance in Jugdral, and might still be doing so during the playable events of Genealogy. But I wouldn't think the Earth Dragons would be as united and that Loptyr would consider just sailing to Jugdral with Galle and abandoning the fight for Archanea. As the only not-wyvern dragon in Jugdral, he'd be pretty powerful. Does Loptyr's body even exist anymore?

I believe it was said that Loptyr performed the blood pact for 2 reasons:

  1. The war with the Divine Dragons was lost and the Earth Dragons would lose. 
  2. If he uses Galle to the non-dragon inhabited Jugdral, he could exact a much longer reign of terror against humanity.

As for his corporeal body, it like was destroyed or sealed away along with the Earth Dragons. The tome contains all of his power and will after all. So he exists through possession now. 

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

 actually disagree with this. The entire case of the blood pact is for a human to use the weapon that allows the human to have full access to the dragon's power itself. Meaning that the 17 generations of Galle and then Julius, were all humans that had Loptyr's full might.

Julius needs the book and to actively use it to use Loptyr's power. Julius also has a human body, and does not have many of the benefits(Like flight) that a full blown dragon would have.

Loptyr in the flesh would have been a much bigger threat. Still would have gotten slapped around by Naga, but it would have been much crazier than Julius.

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Just now, Slumber said:

Julius needs the book and to actively use it to use Loptyr's power. Julius also has a human body, and does not have many of the benefits(Like flight) that a full blown dragon would have.

Loptyr in the flesh would have been a much bigger threat. Still would have gotten slapped around by Naga, but it would have been much crazier than Julius.

Human body, sure, but because of the tome of Loptyr, which Julius obviously wouldn't abandon due to Loptyr's influence, Julius can essentially be unable to be harmed by virtually anything. Forseti even mentioned that only the tome that held Naga's power could beat him.

Loptyr in his dragon form would just be a giant dragon that is destructive. But that wouldn't actually make Loptyr stronger really. Because like Medeus, any major injuries and such that "kills" them would result in them reviving with much more limited power. Medeus was unable to unleash his power outside of his castle in the War of Shadows, and in the War of Heroes, he still hadn't completely revived. 

But the Blood Pact ensures that so long as Loptyr has a vessel with Major Loptyr Blood, his spirit can always come back at full strength through them.

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13 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

But the Blood Pact ensures that so long as Loptyr has a vessel with Major Loptyr Blood, his spirit can always come back at full strength through them.

Okay, but ask yourself:

Would Loptyr have bound himself to humans(A race he was trying to subjugate and exterminate) if it wasn't necessary to effectively "stay in" the war against the dragons while still flexing his powers? Earth Dragons were physically and mentally degenerating and losing the war.

If Loptyr could have maintained full power in his physical form, I guarantee he would have done that as opposed to making a pact with Galle, which should say a lot. Loptyr wasn't a dumb dragon, he knew what was best to stay in the fight, even if that thing meant limiting his own abilities.

Making a pact with Galle allowed him to last longer, but a full-fledged Loptyr raging about probably would have been similar to Grima's rampage in the Awakening's future. Both at their height are nigh invulnerable to anything not related to Naga(Hell, Grima's personal skill is the exact same passive ability granted to people using the Book of Lopto). Differences being: Grima had the opportunity to take out Naga, and he took it. Loptyr was at risk of physically and mentally degrading, Grima wasn't, Grima just needed long naps.

A body builder with cancer who goes through chemotherapy will probably live longer than not, but I guarantee it doesn't make the body builder physically stronger than they were before.

Edited by Slumber
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Just now, Icelerate said:

Only Ena was. The others you can fight but they weren't the boss of the chapter. 

Yeah, but you do fight them more or less. I'm just guessing here.

2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Okay, but ask yourself:

Would Loptyr have bound himself to humans(A race he was trying to subjugate and exterminate) if it wasn't necessary to effectively "stay in" the war against the dragons while still flexing his powers? Earth Dragons were physically and mentally degenerating and losing the war.

If Loptyr could have maintained full power in his physical form, I guarantee he would have done that as opposed to making a pact with Galle, which should say a lot. Loptyr wasn't a dumb dragon, he knew what was best to stay in the fight, even if that thing meant limiting his own abilities.

Making a pact with Galle allowed him to last longer, but a full-fledged Loptyr raging about probably would have been similar to Grima's rampage in the Awakening's future. Both at their height are nigh invulnerable to anything not related to Naga(Hell, Grima's personal skill is the exact same passive ability granted to people using the Book of Lopto). Differences being: Grima had the opportunity to take out Naga, and he took it. Loptyr was at risk of physically and mentally degrading, Grima wasn't, Grima just needed long naps.

A body builder with cancer who goes through chemotherapy will probably live longer than not, but I guarantee it doesn't make the body builder physically stronger than they were before.

Of course Loptyr would never have chosen to perform a blood pact if he had any choice in the matter, since he despised humans for their mere existence. But the blood pact was his only way of actually maintaining all of his power without fear of degeneration. Plus, Galle came from Jugdral, a place that no dragon exists in aside from wyverns. An entire continent with no Divine Dragon to interfere? It was all too good for Loptyr. And thus went 200 years of uninterrupted reign before Naga finally took notice. 

However, even if he had his body, it would make him none the more powerful than if he was possessing a human with his tome. He would just be in a new shape is all. 

That's cause Grima isn't a true dragon. He's a draconic homunculus. There is no degeneration for him to suffer. As for the rampage you mentioned, that did happen. The Earth Dragons went insane, they attacked the humans, and the humans were on the brink of extinction on Archanea. And all those Earth Dragons are now in the belly of Grima (or so I theorize).

I have no idea what to make of the last thing you just said. 

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25 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, but you do fight them more or less. I'm just guessing here.

Of course Loptyr would never have chosen to perform a blood pact if he had any choice in the matter, since he despised humans for their mere existence. But the blood pact was his only way of actually maintaining all of his power without fear of degeneration. Plus, Galle came from Jugdral, a place that no dragon exists in aside from wyverns. An entire continent with no Divine Dragon to interfere? It was all too good for Loptyr. And thus went 200 years of uninterrupted reign before Naga finally took notice. 

However, even if he had his body, it would make him none the more powerful than if he was possessing a human with his tome. He would just be in a new shape is all. 

That's cause Grima isn't a true dragon. He's a draconic homunculus. There is no degeneration for him to suffer. As for the rampage you mentioned, that did happen. The Earth Dragons went insane, they attacked the humans, and the humans were on the brink of extinction on Archanea. And all those Earth Dragons are now in the belly of Grima (or so I theorize).

I have no idea what to make of the last thing you just said. 

Yeah, they hang in Archanea when they're in the human side of things, but to suggest that they couldn't just pop on down to Jugdral is silly. They actually do this to make the blood pacts, then leave the humans to sort shit out for themselves. If I recall, Holsety flat out says he would have helped the humans and could have dealt with the situation, but Naga specifically told him not to interfere, because they didn't want the continent to get torn apart in another dragon war and get ravaged like Archanea. Seliph's final words on Holsety/Lewyn confirm this. We know that the dragons can go to Jugdral if they want. Loptyr out in plain sight would have stopped the situation from being 90% a human problem, and would have turned into a full blown dragon problem. So the dragons didn't hang around to the clean up, but they showed up to gave the human janitors the tools to do it.

You keep pointing out that Loptyr is using a human without seemingly acknowledging what this means. Humans are nowhere near what dragons are physically. Divine and Earth dragons are essentially that world's version of gods and demons, with the other dragons being lesser gods. A human channeling a dragon's powers is going to be nothing compared to a full-blown dragon using dragon powers. Case-in-point: Every other holy blood and holy weapon wielder. They're miles above normal humans, but they're nothing compared to what we know of proper dragons(Duma and Mila being able to just passively influence the environments around them, for example). They're probably stronger than manaketes as well, but manaketes took a massive blow to their power in order to live stable existences. Any time a full-blown dragon shows up proper in the Archanea world, it's generally a huge "Holy shit!" moment, whereas the reaction to Julius and holy weapon wielders is more "Wow, don't mess with those guys". Julius is still a human, even when he's completely controlled by Loptyr. He's still limited in many ways as a human that Loptyr as a dragon wasn't.

And yes, I know what Grima is and why he got to avoid degredation.

The last bit is a hamfisted metaphor on what Loptyr was compared to his old self. Loptyr through Julius is a body builder going through cancer treatment. He lives on, but his power isn't what it was, and it will likely never, ever be what it was. I guess the simple way of putting it would be "Just because he was able to live on doesn't mean he is just as strong as he was before", which is the point I've been trying to get at here.

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31 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Hell, Grima's personal skill is the exact same passive ability granted to people using the Book of Lopto)

Not correct. Dragonskin halves damage. The Book of Loptyr halves Attack.

If I have 50 Attack and the enemy has 30 Defense and the enemy has Dragonskin, I'm dealing (50-30)/2 damage, or 10. If I'm fighting the same enemy with the Book of Loptyr, its 50/2 -30, which equals 0 since 50/2 is 25. The Loptyr effect is much stronger than Dragonskin, but I think the reason they abandoned Attack halving is because it is too strong and makes the player too reliant on the special weapon to kill the final boss. Medeus in FE3 also had Atk halving.

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8 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Yeah, they hang in Archanea when they're in the human side of things, but to suggest that they couldn't just pop on down to Jugdral is silly. They actually do this to make the blood pacts, then leave the humans to sort shit out for themselves. If I recall, Holsety flat out says he would have helped the humans and could have dealt with the situation, but Naga specifically told him not to interfere, because they didn't want the continent to get torn apart in another dragon war and get ravaged like Archanea. We know that the dragons can go to Jugdral if they want. Loptyr out in plain sight would have stopped the situation from being 90% a human problem, and would have turned into a full blown dragon problem. The dragons didn't hang around to the clean up, but they showed up to gave the human janitors the tools to do it.

No no no no no. Allow me to correct you. Naga said that it was "silly" to stay with the humans. 

Also, I think Naga had no way of knowing that there was a bloodline that she had missed. I mean, it was by chance that Saint Maira ended up allowing the Loptyr bloodline to survive. 

8 minutes ago, Slumber said:

You keep pointing out that Loptyr is using a human without seemingly acknowledging what this means. Humans are nowhere near what dragons are physically. Divine and Earth dragons are essentially that world's version of gods and demons, with the other dragons being lesser gods. A human channeling a dragon's powers is going to be nothing compared to a full-blown dragon using dragon powers. Case-in-point: Every other holy blood and holy weapon wielder. They're miles above normal humans, but they're nothing compared to what we know of proper dragons(Duma and Mila being able to just passively influence the environments around them, for example). They're probably stronger than manaketes as well, but manaketes took a massive blow to their power in order to live stable existences. Any time a full-blown dragon shows up proper in the Archanea world, it's generally a huge "Holy shit!" moment, whereas the reaction to Julius and holy weapon wielders is more "Wow, don't mess with those guys". Julius is still a human, even when he's completely controlled by Loptyr. He's still limited in many ways as a human.

Ehhh... not necessarily. See, here's the thing. Duma and Mila are powerful Divine Dragons, so I wouldn't say that it is a good comparison to make. Frankly, Divine and Earth Dragons are the strongest Dragons in Archanea. However, the blood pact seems to be more or less a more forbidden. 

See, you keep mentioning human, but what exactly could harm Julius if the power of Loptyr literally gives him a state of 'invincibility' that Earth Dragons have? He's human in regards to lifespan, sure, but that's about it. Also, Manaketes seal all their power into the dragonstone. They don't actually get weaker by becoming Manaketes. Its just a method to keep the degeneration in check. So the Manakets taking dragon form is the actual dragon power itself, but with higher risk of growing mad. There was no indication saying that dragons becoming Manaketes made them any weaker as dragons. But their new human bodies were more frail is all. 

You are correct that if someone sees a dragon, it would be a "Holy shit" moment, since the dragons are just much larger creatures. But the blood pact essentially allows the human to have the powers the dragon had as well. Kaga even said in an interview that the blood pact means that those with Major Loptyr blood is a human born with Loptyrs strength. No indication that they are any weaker. 

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Oh right. One thing I had forgotten to add. 

Another case on the blood pact is that it isn't actually the dragon that is fully manifested here. Loptyr's powerful will and hatred influences and corrupts the human, but it isn't actually full body possession. Julius shows a lot of his own personality, including a love for Ishtar and a hatred for Reinhardt. This is because that while Loptyr has great influence over Julius, he isn't fully controlling him. So that's another thing here. 

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

No no no no no. Allow me to correct you. Naga said that it was "silly" to stay with the humans. 

Also, I think Naga had no way of knowing that there was a bloodline that she had missed. I mean, it was by chance that Saint Maira ended up allowing the Loptyr bloodline to survive. 

Fair enough, but it's not really relevant to this discussion. Naga was still against interfering past making blood pacts, which still is pretty hands-off for dragons.

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Ehhh... not necessarily. See, here's the thing. Duma and Mila are powerful Divine Dragons, so I wouldn't say that it is a good comparison to make. Frankly, Divine and Earth Dragons are the strongest Dragons in Archanea. However, the blood pact seems to be more or less a more forbidden. 

See, you keep mentioning human, but what exactly could harm Julius if the power of Loptyr literally gives him a state of 'invincibility' that Earth Dragons have? He's human in regards to lifespan, sure, but that's about it. Also, Manaketes seal all their power into the dragonstone. They don't actually get weaker by becoming Manaketes. Its just a method to keep the degeneration in check. So the Manakets taking dragon form is the actual dragon power itself, but with higher risk of growing mad. There was no indication saying that dragons becoming Manaketes made them any weaker as dragons. But their new human bodies were more frail is all. 

You are correct that if someone sees a dragon, it would be a "Holy shit" moment, since the dragons are just much larger creatures. But the blood pact essentially allows the human to have the powers the dragon had as well. Kaga even said in an interview that the blood pact means that those with Major Loptyr blood is a human born with Loptyrs strength. No indication that they are any weaker. 

The ONLY other dragons said to even remotely come close to Divine Dragons are Earth Dragons. If two Divine Dragons(One going through degeneration) are altering the environment of a whole continent by simply existing there, it should stand to reason that a full-blown Earth Dragon trying to actively exert his influence would do something similar, no? Yet we don't see that with the hundreds of years that Galle and the Lopto blood flourished that anything like this ever happened. No mention of "Oh yeah, crops got kinda shitty" or anything.

Julius has nigh-invulnerability, but he can't fly, he can't span a whole continent in like, a day(Well, he can, but through Warp Staves, not through any dragon involved means), and if he's not ACTIVELY using the Book of Loptyr, he's not really any different from any other Holy Blood descendant. All of these things would be passive to a normal Loptyr. He'd be a high-flying, death breathing catastrophe, like we saw of Grima when his full body came out, as opposed to an insanely strong teenager who has to wait for his problems to come to him and can't do much without his book.

I mean, I guess if Kaga said it I'll have to accept it, but it seems... off with the presentation of FE4 and 5 and how they treat the holy blood children. They're treated as big deals, but not some religion-inspiring figures like dragons in Archanea are. The cult of Lopto don't worship Galle and his descendants, they worship the dragon itself. There has to be SOME reason that the dragons were given orders to not act in Jugdral beyond giving their blood. If humans with dragon blood are just as powerful as dragons(And in somebody like Reinhardt's case, somebody without dragon blood being just as strong as those with dragon blood, and thus being just as strong as a dragon), then why would Naga worry that dragons fighting in Jugdral would cause the same problems that plagued Archanea? It seems like these questions would be answered pretty quickly if it boiled down to the humans with dragon blood having a fraction of the power that actual dragons have.

25 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Not correct. Dragonskin halves damage. The Book of Loptyr halves Attack.

If I have 50 Attack and the enemy has 30 Defense and the enemy has Dragonskin, I'm dealing (50-30)/2 damage, or 10. If I'm fighting the same enemy with the Book of Loptyr, its 50/2 -30, which equals 0 since 50/2 is 25. The Loptyr effect is much stronger than Dragonskin, but I think the reason they abandoned Attack halving is because it is too strong and makes the player too reliant on the special weapon to kill the final boss. Medeus in FE3 also had Atk halving.

Also yeah, I overlooked that detail.

I also remembered Medeus had the same ability and that it's an Earth Dragon specialty, but figured it was too late in the argument for it to matter.

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To you guys who've played Warriors, where would you rank Velezark? Obviously not as powerful as Grima, but is he as strong as Medeus is? Or as strong as Mila and Duma?

Edit: The poll needs to be updated if possible to include Mila, Duma, and Velezark.

Edited by Hylian Air Force
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5 hours ago, Slumber said:

Fair enough, but it's not really relevant to this discussion. Naga was still against interfering past making blood pacts, which still is pretty hands-off for dragons.

Oh no, I was just joking about how stupid this was of Naga to say. To say that it was silly is rather weird, in my opinion. Then again, despite Naga's love for humans, she seems to have a firm belief that dragons and humans can never coexist peacefully. 

5 hours ago, Slumber said:

The ONLY other dragons said to even remotely come close to Divine Dragons are Earth Dragons. If two Divine Dragons(One going through degeneration) are altering the environment of a whole continent by simply existing there, it should stand to reason that a full-blown Earth Dragon trying to actively exert his influence would do something similar, no? Yet we don't see that with the hundreds of years that Galle and the Lopto blood flourished that anything like this ever happened. No mention of "Oh yeah, crops got kinda shitty" or anything.

Julius has nigh-invulnerability, but he can't fly, he can't span a whole continent in like, a day(Well, he can, but through Warp Staves, not through any dragon involved means), and if he's not ACTIVELY using the Book of Loptyr, he's not really any different from any other Holy Blood descendant. All of these things would be passive to a normal Loptyr. He'd be a high-flying, death breathing catastrophe, like we saw of Grima when his full body came out, as opposed to an insanely strong teenager who has to wait for his problems to come to him and can't do much without his book.

I mean, I guess if Kaga said it I'll have to accept it, but it seems... off with the presentation of FE4 and 5 and how they treat the holy blood children. They're treated as big deals, but not some religion-inspiring figures like dragons in Archanea are. The cult of Lopto don't worship Galle and his descendants, they worship the dragon itself. There has to be SOME reason that the dragons were given orders to not act in Jugdral beyond giving their blood. If humans with dragon blood are just as powerful as dragons(And in somebody like Reinhardt's case, somebody without dragon blood being just as strong as those with dragon blood, and thus being just as strong as a dragon), then why would Naga worry that dragons fighting in Jugdral would cause the same problems that plagued Archanea? It seems like these questions would be answered pretty quickly if it boiled down to the humans with dragon blood having a fraction of the power that actual dragons have.

Yes, there are possibilities of there being various other powers along with the tome of Loptyr that Julius had. But the issue is less on the belief that Loptyr is more powerful when he's in dragon form, and more on what I had added on. Julius might have all of Loptyr's powers, and so did all the previous generations of Galles. But they were still mostly human in mind. Loptyr was only influencing on their thoughts and actions. But the mind that still remained relatively human only acted in methods a human would act. Creating a cult, conquer the continent, and so on. 

Julius showed a love for despair and wanting to inflict pain to humans, but there were cases where his love for Ishtar actually allowed him to be a bit more lenient, just cause Julius' own feelings for her overrode some of Loptyr's will. So the human side prevents the entire desire for rampage and just destroy everything in sight, which Loptyr in his dragon form would have done. This is possibly the reason why. And you aren't wrong, the sheer size and mass would allow Loptyr to be far more destructive. But in terms of power, Julius would in fact be on the same level as Loptyr himself. 

Also, Loptyr can't fly actually. Earth Dragons aren't known to be able to fly at all. Though Loptyr's sprite in the game seems to indicate that he can fly, that really isn't the case when you look at the shape of the body we see, in which his body was more serpentine. 

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3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Oh no, I was just joking about how stupid this was of Naga to say. To say that it was silly is rather weird, in my opinion. Then again, despite Naga's love for humans, she seems to have a firm belief that dragons and humans can never coexist peacefully. 

Yes, there are possibilities of there being various other powers along with the tome of Loptyr that Julius had. But the issue is less on the belief that Loptyr is more powerful when he's in dragon form, and more on what I had added on. Julius might have all of Loptyr's powers, and so did all the previous generations of Galles. But they were still mostly human in mind. Loptyr was only influencing on their thoughts and actions. But the mind that still remained relatively human only acted in methods a human would act. Creating a cult, conquer the continent, and so on. 

Julius showed a love for despair and wanting to inflict pain to humans, but there were cases where his love for Ishtar actually allowed him to be a bit more lenient, just cause Julius' own feelings for her overrode some of Loptyr's will. So the human side prevents the entire desire for rampage and just destroy everything in sight, which Loptyr in his dragon form would have done. This is possibly the reason why. And you aren't wrong, the sheer size and mass would allow Loptyr to be far more destructive. But in terms of power, Julius would in fact be on the same level as Loptyr himself. 

Also, Loptyr can't fly actually. Earth Dragons aren't known to be able to fly at all. Though Loptyr's sprite in the game seems to indicate that he can fly, that really isn't the case when you look at the shape of the body we see, in which his body was more serpentine. 

Loptyr can fly. We literally see him fly out of the castle with two great big wings when you defeat Julius. He may have been an Earth Dragon originally, but he's undergone the same vague process as Medeus to become a Shadow Dragon.

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I suppose it would depend on the type of power we're talking about:

For sheer physical/magical power, it would either be Anankos or Grima. Both have massive undead armies loyal to only them; the difference being that Anankos' minions have just a little more sentience (at least, the ones to which he had given more of his power). But Anankos also created what seemed like a black hole, can manipulate the landscape through dragon veins, and quite a few other abilities. I would say Anankos is stronger though for being able to perform a lot more magical feats than Grima.

I suppose Medues could come into the running if, in Shadow Dragon form, he could command the maddened Earth Dragons. But I don't think there was anything suggesting that he could. Besides, the Shield of Seals was able to repel them anyway.

For political power: Medeus is the ruler of a tyrannical Manakete-Supremacist empire, while Loptyr was able to rule an entire continent for a few years through the possessed Julius. Dheginsea ruled a small, isolationist kingdom. In this case, I would say that Medeus is the most powerful of the three if only because his empire overall lasts longer than Loptyr's, and manaketes flock to him and help him rebuild his empire every time he comes back, so it can always return so long as Medeus can come back. Loptyr, however, depends on a human host and needed the empire to be all but built already.

For sheer... resilience (for lack of a better word), Dheginsea has Ashera's blessing to make him immune to damage from all non-blessed attacks, but any blessing from Ashera or Yune can negate that, and there are at least two Ashera-blessed weapons in existence. Loptyr and Medeus both retain their power as former Earth Dragons to half damage from all but a few enemy attacks. The difference: Medeus was able to keep coming back (something Earth Dragons seem able to), while Loptyr needed to put his mind and power in a spellbook to stay alive. Anankos, while having that same having damage ability, seems otherwise completely mortal; taking damage and being able to be completely destroyed the one time by anyone. Grima has the halving damage ability, and the always returning thing that Medeus had, but taken up to 11 in that only his intended host can truly destroy him. No magic sword or divine dragon can truly destroy him; only put him to sleep for a millennia. Overall, in sheer difficulty to bring down once and for all, I would say Grima is the most powerful, even if I doubt even he has the power to negate the blessing Dheginsea has.

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4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Loptyr can fly. We literally see him fly out of the castle with two great big wings when you defeat Julius. He may have been an Earth Dragon originally, but he's undergone the same vague process as Medeus to become a Shadow Dragon.

I literally mentioned that. 

Quote

Also, Loptyr can't fly actually. Earth Dragons aren't known to be able to fly at all. Though Loptyr's sprite in the game seems to indicate that he can fly, that really isn't the case when you look at the shape of the body we see, in which his body was more serpentine. 

When we see Loptyr's attack animation done from Julius, Loptyr clearly shows that his body has no wings. And when we look at Book of Naga that has similar animation, Naga DID have wings. So no, in actuality, Loptyr has no wings and cannot truly fly. They just made the sprite animation do that for some reason. 

5 hours ago, Morswo said:

A flying Loptyr would be strong as Grima, but we don't know if Loptyr can fly, so Grima would be the most powerful dragon.

 

3 hours ago, Morswo said:

I forgot this, so Loptyr is stronger.

Not really. See, the case is that Grima shows to have incredible power to the point that Naga even confessed that she can never kill him. Grima is unkillable as the only one that can kill Grima is himself. Not only that, but Grima is not bound by the limitations that Loptyr is bound via blood pact. See, whereas Loptyr can be killed for good if there are no one left that holds his blood, either minor or major, Loptyr can never revive.

However, there's strong evidence in that Grima can revive himself even if his bloodline happens to get killed. In Echoes, even when the party defeated Grima, it's said that though he was defeated, Grima's presence was still there, showing that his spirit was very much alive. Naga also makes no mention that ending Grima's bloodline would do anything either. And there's been several mention that as the seal becomes undone after 1000 years, Grima would awaken again. So if there was no host, what would happen? This would imply that Grima would just create a new blodline.

Someone on Serenes made a good explanation about how Grima's sealing and revival works, but I can't remember who:

Quote

I'd guess Grima has their soul, their power, and their body. The body is the bloodline that carries the soul in the most optimal way, but the soul can be transmigrated to create a new bloodline in another body. The power is what gets sealed away, and is necessary for bringing the soul and body of Grima to a full blossoming of Fell Dragon godliness. It's a little like what happened to Dracula post-1999 in Castlevania. His power in the form of his castle got sealed in an eclipse, but his soul and traces of his power survived unsealed. 

It still impresses me how simple the explanation was. It was such a good explanation that I saved it.

3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

For sheer physical/magical power, it would either be Anankos or Grima. Both have massive undead armies loyal to only them; the difference being that Anankos' minions have just a little more sentience (at least, the ones to which he had given more of his power). But Anankos also created what seemed like a black hole, can manipulate the landscape through dragon veins, and quite a few other abilities. I would say Anankos is stronger though for being able to perform a lot more magical feats than Grima.

Anankos does seem to show incredible magical gifts and feats. 

3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I suppose Medues could come into the running if, in Shadow Dragon form, he could command the maddened Earth Dragons. But I don't think there was anything suggesting that he could. Besides, the Shield of Seals was able to repel them anyway.

He was called the Dragon Emperor by then, despite how he was the Earth Dragon Prince before. And in the bad ending of New Mystery, it was said that Medeus revived and launched another war that Marth took part in. Of course Marth likely died here since he had no Falchion this time, nor the Shield of Seals. 

And the Shield of Seals was designed to keep the Earth Dragons in eternal sleep. So it makes sense. 

3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

For political power: Medeus is the ruler of a tyrannical Manakete-Supremacist empire, while Loptyr was able to rule an entire continent for a few years through the possessed Julius. Dheginsea ruled a small, isolationist kingdom. In this case, I would say that Medeus is the most powerful of the three if only because his empire overall lasts longer than Loptyr's, and manaketes flock to him and help him rebuild his empire every time he comes back, so it can always return so long as Medeus can come back. Loptyr, however, depends on a human host and needed the empire to be all but built already.

Well, in this one, I would actually give the edge more to Loptyr than Medeus in terms of political power.

See, Loptyr actually ended up doing something very smart in that by possessing Galle and going to Jugdral, he effectively went to a continent with no dragons (except wyverns), and no Naga to intervene. Jugdral was literally ripe for the picking for Loptyr. And it wasn't for another 200 years before Naga finally took notice of Loptyr. And even then, the war took 16 years with the 12 Crusaders, because at that time, Loptyr's political influence was so great that he kept the war dragging for a long time. As Julius, Loptyr had invoked a longstanding rule, but more from behind the shadows as people believed that Arvis was the one that was now ruling as a tyrant. Arvis ended up being the puppet ruler for Julius, who was the crown prince. So it was several years of ruling here, but Loptyr's political influence was not as powerful as when he was ruling as the 17 generations of Galle, hence why when Seliph finally got involved, Julius died in around a year or so.

Medeus though had a different case in that he invoked a war to rule the continent, and in this case, there were those that fought back. Artemis placed a curse on the Emblem (Least on the remake story in Shadow Dragon) that would ensure that Cartas would win the war. And for the most part, he was. Until Medeus got involved. But then Anri arrived with Falchion, a blade for the sole purpose of defending the humans from dragons. So whereas Loptyr had no one to oppose him until much later, Medeus always had someone to fight against him. This also includes the War of Shadows. 

Also, while Loptyr is dependent on the bloodline, Medeus also has issues. After his first defeat in the War of Liberation, his revival ended up not being fully complete, and he was unable to utilize his power outside the castle. Medeus never actually "died" per se in either War of Liberation or War of Shadows. Gotoh explains that Medeus only goes into a deep slumber because Earth Dragons have an abnormally long lifespan. His revival is to make him wake up, but in both cases of revival, it wasn't perfected, as the second one required Medeus to devour the 4 purehearted clerics. I don't get this really, but meh.

3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

For sheer... resilience (for lack of a better word), Dheginsea has Ashera's blessing to make him immune to damage from all non-blessed attacks, but any blessing from Ashera or Yune can negate that, and there are at least two Ashera-blessed weapons in existence. Loptyr and Medeus both retain their power as former Earth Dragons to half damage from all but a few enemy attacks. The difference: Medeus was able to keep coming back (something Earth Dragons seem able to), while Loptyr needed to put his mind and power in a spellbook to stay alive. Anankos, while having that same having damage ability, seems otherwise completely mortal; taking damage and being able to be completely destroyed the one time by anyone. Grima has the halving damage ability, and the always returning thing that Medeus had, but taken up to 11 in that only his intended host can truly destroy him. No magic sword or divine dragon can truly destroy him; only put him to sleep for a millennia. Overall, in sheer difficulty to bring down once and for all, I would say Grima is the most powerful, even if I doubt even he has the power to negate the blessing Dheginsea has.

No one knows how Grima would have fared against the blessings. For all we know, he might actually corrupt and defile those blessings. Of course, I highly doubt that even Grima can defeat Ashera and by extension, Ashunera. 

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well, in this one, I would actually give the edge more to Loptyr than Medeus in terms of political power.

See, Loptyr actually ended up doing something very smart in that by possessing Galle and going to Jugdral, he effectively went to a continent with no dragons (except wyverns), and no Naga to intervene. Jugdral was literally ripe for the picking for Loptyr. And it wasn't for another 200 years before Naga finally took notice of Loptyr. And even then, the war took 16 years with the 12 Crusaders, because at that time, Loptyr's political influence was so great that he kept the war dragging for a long time. As Julius, Loptyr had invoked a longstanding rule, but more from behind the shadows as people believed that Arvis was the one that was now ruling as a tyrant. Arvis ended up being the puppet ruler for Julius, who was the crown prince. So it was several years of ruling here, but Loptyr's political influence was not as powerful as when he was ruling as the 17 generations of Galle, hence why when Seliph finally got involved, Julius died in around a year or so.

Medeus though had a different case in that he invoked a war to rule the continent, and in this case, there were those that fought back. Artemis placed a curse on the Emblem (Least on the remake story in Shadow Dragon) that would ensure that Cartas would win the war. And for the most part, he was. Until Medeus got involved. But then Anri arrived with Falchion, a blade for the sole purpose of defending the humans from dragons. So whereas Loptyr had no one to oppose him until much later, Medeus always had someone to fight against him. This also includes the War of Shadows. 

Also, while Loptyr is dependent on the bloodline, Medeus also has issues. After his first defeat in the War of Liberation, his revival ended up not being fully complete, and he was unable to utilize his power outside the castle. Medeus never actually "died" per se in either War of Liberation or War of Shadows. Gotoh explains that Medeus only goes into a deep slumber because Earth Dragons have an abnormally long lifespan. His revival is to make him wake up, but in both cases of revival, it wasn't perfected, as the second one required Medeus to devour the 4 purehearted clerics. I don't get this really, but meh.

Yeah; I suppose you have a point there. But I still think Medeus has the greater political power.

Unlike Loptyr, Medeus wasn't just a tyrant: he was an emblem (no pun intended) of an ideology (manakete supremacy). He had lots of people who wanted to be part of the Dohlr Empire: specifically manaketes; fed up with how they were being treated by humans in Archanea at the time. Whenever he revived, there would be enough to rebuild Dohlr not just because of a scheming mage (Gharnef in Medeus' case, Manfroy in Loptyr's), but because Medeus had people under him who wanted the empire. 

Not only that, but, as you pointed out, Medeus had enemies from the very get-go, and beat every single one. Once Cartas started winning, he showed up personally, and Cartas started losing. It was only once Anri showed up with the Falchion that he lost. Even then, his loss was only temporary. He woke up, and essentially rebuilt the Dohlr Empire from scratch, and succeeded to conquer almost everyone yet again. As you said, there was always someone to fight against Medeus, but Medeus crushed them every time until a Falchion-wielder appeared. Whereas for Loptyr, the empire pretty much already existed when he returned; he just claimed it when he possessed Julius.

Also, Artemis' Curse on the Fire Emblem in Shadow Dragon, if I recall correctly, had nothing to do with Medeus; it was simply a curse that whoever in the Archanean royal family passed down the Emblem to a hero, would suffer a tragic romance, because Artemis and Anri were in love, but, despite Anri saving the continent, they couldn't be married because he was a peasant. The nobility of Archanea then forced Artemis to marry Cartas: the guy who got beaten by Medeus, and Anri died alone and childless (Marth is descended from Anri's brother). So yeah; the curse had nothing to do with Medeus. 

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

For sheer... resilience (for lack of a better word), Dheginsea has Ashera's blessing to make him immune to damage from all non-blessed attacks, but any blessing from Ashera or Yune can negate that, and there are at least two Ashera-blessed weapons in existence. Loptyr and Medeus both retain their power as former Earth Dragons to half damage from all but a few enemy attacks. The difference: Medeus was able to keep coming back (something Earth Dragons seem able to), while Loptyr needed to put his mind and power in a spellbook to stay alive. Anankos, while having that same having damage ability, seems otherwise completely mortal; taking damage and being able to be completely destroyed the one time by anyone. Grima has the halving damage ability, and the always returning thing that Medeus had, but taken up to 11 in that only his intended host can truly destroy him. No magic sword or divine dragon can truly destroy him; only put him to sleep for a millennia. Overall, in sheer difficulty to bring down once and for all, I would say Grima is the most powerful, even if I doubt even he has the power to negate the blessing Dheginsea has.

I wouldn't say you need Yune's blessings or bust to defeat Dheginsea, or Ashera who is powering him. Yune can penetrate Ashera's blessings because she is pure Chaos, the opposite of Ashera who is pure Order. If one was able to accrue sufficient Chaos in another way, they should in theory be able to break through Ashera's blessings.

 

7 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Dheginsea is as powerful as an actual god rather then just a powerful dragon so I'm guessing he's the strongest. 

I can't find that one line I'm certain exists saying something akin to Ashera being impressed by Dheg's power/him being possibly even stronger than her.

Still, I'd consider him the weakest of the dragon enemies, for he lacks timespace shenanigans and a horde of ugly minions and whatnot. No denying that he is by far the best written though. He tramples on Anankos though he were a gnat in this regard. 

 

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

His revival is to make him wake up, but in both cases of revival, it wasn't perfected, as the second one required Medeus to devour the 4 purehearted clerics. I don't get this really, but meh.

He didn't actually devour the clerics, just somehow siphon energy off them or something- only if you kill him without recruiting the maidens first does he eat his Bluefin, Yellowtail, Red Snapper, and... Salmon? There is no explanation why the clerics are special though.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Someone on Serenes made a good explanation about how Grima's sealing and revival works, but I can't remember who:

Quote

That was mine, but I wouldn't call it that good. It was just a guess, and I didn't back it with a search for textual evidence.

 

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

So no, in actuality, Loptyr has no wings and cannot truly fly.

Well it depends, what does his full body look like? I only know his head image that pops up when the tome is used. If the body to which said head is attached is your standard quadrupedal one, then him being able to fly I'd doubt. If however his body is purely serpentine, then he could be like an East Asian dragon, which fly without needing wings- they're magical like that. 

9 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Oh no, I was just joking about how stupid this was of Naga to say. To say that it was silly is rather weird, in my opinion. Then again, despite Naga's love for humans, she seems to have a firm belief that dragons and humans can never coexist peacefully. 

Well Dheginsea also did the same thing by taking the Dragon Laguz to Goldoa (the artbooks state this).

In his case, his people are extremely powerful and live extremely long lives vis a vis the Beorc and the rest of the Laguz. However, they number incredibly few and reproduce at a glacial pace comparatively.

The dragons are so powerful, they could crush everyone in an instant, and the stats prove this in both Tellius games. Nasir should be taken at his word when he says they'd have razed Tellius to the ground if Dheg had gotten involved in the Mad King's War. So keeping them away is fairer and safer for everyone else.

However, the Dragon Laguz are also very fragile! For Goldoa has such a tiny population, if you can fit most of it inside part of a giant tower, you know you are a small group. This is a group that also takes more than ~20 years to make a baby (thanks for the lesson Ena), versus the 9 months for a Beorc and probably not far too much longer for the other Laguz. Therefore, the death of 1 Dragon, is far far greater a population decline percentage-wise than the death of 1 of anything else.

Now mix the Dragon Laguz with ordinary people from other races. If one Dragon dies in a stupid angry drunken bar fight each year, that would be very bad. And if a Dragon won said bar fight, there would be no bar, nor owner and patrons left. Now if Dragons desired power or got in a war, they'd win easily and everyone would tremble in fear. If people started persecuting Dragons, it'd require very little effort to commit a genocide if the Dragons refused to fight back (or if they targeted the vulnerable- the elderly and the children). 

Now in Dheg's case, not only does he have to worry about all this, but if he doesn't have full control over his people, they might fight and them fighting would contribute significantly to potentially awakening Ashera- a death sentence for the world.

So why did I go over all this? Because Archanean Dragons share practically the same set of issues, except replace the judgement with feral decline as its unique issue. Therefore, I would say Naga has grounds for her liking of humans (Dheg loved everyone not just his own people), whilst still finding it in the best interest of all to keep them and her kind apart.

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28 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I can't find that one line I'm certain exists saying something akin to Ashera being impressed by Dheg's power/him being possibly even stronger than her.

Still, I'd consider him the weakest of the dragon enemies, for he lacks timespace shenanigans and a horde of ugly minions and whatnot. No denying that he is by far the best written though. He tramples on Anankos though he were a gnat in this regard. 

Its his battle conversation with Neasalla who says that even Ashera would hesitate to fight Dhegi. 

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