Who is the most powerful dragon boss (lore-wise)?

[vanguard333]

30 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I wouldn't say you need Yune's blessings or bust to defeat Dheginsea, or Ashera who is powering him. Yune can penetrate Ashera's blessings because she is pure Chaos, the opposite of Ashera who is pure Order. If one was able to accrue sufficient Chaos in another way, they should in theory be able to break through Ashera's blessing

I suppose, but there's no evidence for it in the game. Yune can penetrate Ashera's blessing because they are two halves of the same powerful entity. In an ideal situation, they would have equal power (Yune is weaker in RD because she was weakened and sealed in the medallion, while Ashera got to sleep for 800 years). Grima, while strong, is not at their level.

Also, I was the one who said the paragraph you were replying to, so why does the quote you took say, "omegaxis1 said" instead of "vanguard333 said"?

[omegaxis1]

50 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Yeah; I suppose you have a point there. But I still think Medeus has the greater political power.

Unlike Loptyr, Medeus wasn't just a tyrant: he was an emblem (no pun intended) of an ideology (manakete supremacy). He had lots of people who wanted to be part of the Dohlr Empire: specifically manaketes; fed up with how they were being treated by humans in Archanea at the time. Whenever he revived, there would be enough to rebuild Dohlr not just because of a scheming mage (Gharnef in Medeus' case, Manfroy in Loptyr's), but because Medeus had people under him who wanted the empire. 

You had a point there. Medeus united all the persecuted Manaketes to create the Dolhr Empire, and every Manakete seemed to perfectly want to serve him. Medeus did actually fight for a more reasonable cost. Why did Loptyr harm humans in Jugdral? He hates humans just because they exist. They are insects to him, and the fact that he has to give up the supremacy of the continent because they were degenerating while humans continued on was an insult to his pride. 

He's smart, but he clearly has one of the most pettiest reasons out of the villains. Thanks to Echoes, Grima seems to have been created with evil and perfection in mind, so he'd be akin something like Cell from DBZ.

Anyways, for Medeus, his hatred for humans is out of persecution. After how the Divine Dragons defended them, and how they tried to let humans be peaceful, the humans immediately abused them. Medeus would actually be almost similar to Manfroy. Hatred out of the persecution they endured. Medeus likely didn't experience it, but he must have seen it, since he's been guarding the seal. 

50 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Not only that, but, as you pointed out, Medeus had enemies from the very get-go, and beat every single one. Once Cartas started winning, he showed up personally, and Cartas started losing. It was only once Anri showed up with the Falchion that he lost. Even then, his loss was only temporary. He woke up, and essentially rebuilt the Dohlr Empire from scratch, and succeeded to conquer almost everyone yet again. As you said, there was always someone to fight against Medeus, but Medeus crushed them every time until a Falchion-wielder appeared. Whereas for Loptyr, the empire pretty much already existed when he returned; he just claimed it when he possessed Julius.

Well, even if Medeus was part of the War of Shadows, he was handicapped there. In both War of Shadows and War of Heroes, the mastermind behind those wars was Gharnef. 

43 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Also, Artemis' Curse on the Fire Emblem in Shadow Dragon, if I recall correctly, had nothing to do with Medeus; it was simply a curse that whoever in the Archanean royal family passed down the Emblem to a hero, would suffer a tragic romance, because Artemis and Anri were in love, but, despite Anri saving the continent, they couldn't be married because he was a peasant. The nobility of Archanea then forced Artemis to marry Cartas: the guy who got beaten by Medeus, and Anri died alone and childless (Marth is descended from Anri's brother). So yeah; the curse had nothing to do with Medeus. 

I did say that it was something from the remake. And the curse was both positive and negative. The negative was as you said. But the positive was that those that when the Fire Emblem is handed down, the curse allows the holder of it to be granted victory in the battles in the war. Cartas having it allowed him to push the Manaketes back and have the advantage until Medeus showed up. Nyna gave it to Marth and that can be said that Marth having it helped him win the war. 

This curse is believed to still continue onward to Awakening. Chrom was given the Emblem, but Emmeryn dies and Chrom gets killed by Robin. Lucina gets it, but though she's held out long enough, but the war was lost because Grima was too powerful. 

43 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

He didn't actually devour the clerics, just somehow siphon energy off them or something- only if you kill him without recruiting the maidens first does he eat his Bluefin, Yellowtail, Red Snapper, and... Salmon? There is no explanation why the clerics are special though.

According to Gotoh, the life force of four maidens of pure hearts can hasten the awakening of an Earth Dragon.

43 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

That was mine, but I wouldn't call it that good. It was just a guess, and I didn't back it with a search for textual evidence.

Well, it was a very good guess, and I liked it. It makes the best explanation. 

43 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Well it depends, what does his full body look like? I only know his head image that pops up when the tome is used. If the body to which said head is attached is your standard quadrupedal one, then him being able to fly I'd doubt. If however his body is purely serpentine, then he could be like an East Asian dragon, which fly without needing wings- they're magical like that. 

Here're the pics:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/f/fb/Loptous_fe4.png/revision/latest?cb=20110110112705

And here's Naga:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/c/c6/Naga_fe4_2.png/revision/latest?cb=20130622032421

We can clearly see Naga's wings. 

Also, the long neck is something normal for Earth Dragons, as we see it here:

But there is the chance that they are like Eastern Dragons, so who knows. 

43 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

So why did I go over all this? Because Archanean Dragons share practically the same set of issues, except replace the judgement with feral decline as its unique issue. Therefore, I would say Naga has grounds for her liking of humans (Dheg loved everyone not just his own people), whilst still finding it in the best interest of all to keep them and her kind apart.

Echoes even gives us further insight on this. Naga actually indicated, even before the degeneration started, that the dragons would be led to madness and would face ruin. Naga seems to show to have the power of clairvoyance, hence why she gave the first Falchion to Duma and Mila, so that the humans would be able to fight and kill them when they are led to madness. 

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I suppose, but there's no evidence for it in the game. Yune can penetrate Ashera's blessing because they are two halves of the same powerful entity. In an ideal situation, they would have equal power (Yune is weaker in RD because she was weakened and sealed in the medallion, while Ashera got to sleep for 800 years). Grima, while strong, is not at their level.

While I do agree that even Grima would not likely win a fight against Ashera, but there's no telling what would happen. Grima is the only entity that has destroyed the world. I honestly won't count Anankos to this, though, since Heirs of Fate is beyond stupid.

[Morswo]

So we have Loptyr without wings in the canon, and we don't know if he is able to fly.

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

I'd guess Grima has their soul, their power, and their body. The body is the bloodline that carries the soul in the most optimal way, but the soul can be transmigrated to create a new bloodline in another body. The power is what gets sealed away, and is necessary for bringing the soul and body of Grima to a full blossoming of Fell Dragon godliness. It's a little like what happened to Dracula post-1999 in Castlevania. His power in the form of his castle got sealed in an eclipse, but his soul and traces of his power survived unsealed. 

With this abilities is Grima more powerful than Loptyr, that is true. With his might he is able to reach political goals, he can simple terrorize the hole world and there is his undead army and the grimleal, this has convinced me, I think Grima would be more powerful.

[Interdimensional Observer]

10 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I suppose, but there's no evidence for it in the game. Yune can penetrate Ashera's blessing because they are two halves of the same powerful entity. In an ideal situation, they would have equal power (Yune is weaker in RD because she was weakened and sealed in the medallion, while Ashera got to sleep for 800 years). Grima, while strong, is not at their level.

Also, I was the one who said the paragraph you were replying to, so why does the quote you took say, "omegaxis1 said" instead of "vanguard333 said"?

The same there is no evidence something other than Starlight can penetrate Imhullu, or anything other than the Lightsphere that can penetrate the Darksphere, or the only thing that can negate the Loptyr tome's Atk halving effect is the Book of Naga, or.... . I've made a point that FE has done a "nothing but X can harm Y" thing before, and this is done without regard for the idea of a multiverse where people can fight each other. These statements are made considering the circumstances, but I wouldn't call them perfectly unbreakable. Given enough time, Gotoh could have made a Starlight replacement with the research and resources- but that would decades or centuries when they need Starlight NOW!

And while I'd like to put Ashera/Yune/Ashunera at the top of the power pyramid (admittedly we never see just what Ashunera can do- but Yune at the moment of complete divorce from Ashera managed to flood the entire world- which is very powerful), owing to a lack of timey-wimey tricks on their part, I'm not sure we can truly say this right now. Although I thank Ashera she didn't resort to timespace silliness, for this hurts Anankos from a writing perspective (or rather is part of his writing problem rather than just causing it), if being perfectly fine for Grima, since all he did was travel back one time.

I'm guessing I accidentally took your paragraph from Omega's citing of it by mistake, my bad.

[omegaxis1]

21 minutes ago, Morswo said:

So we have Loptyr without wings in the canon, and we don't know if he is able to fly.

With this abilities is Grima more powerful than Loptyr, that is true. With his might he is able to reach political goals, he can simple terrorize the hole world and there is his undead army and the grimleal, this has convinced me, I think Grima would be more powerful.

When Grima is revived, there are no politics anymore. Grima just raises an army of the dead easily. Lucina even states several times that there are no corner in the entire world that is safe from Grima. He didn't lose mostly because of pride, arrogance, or the typical shounen troupes. Grima only ever lost, because of circumstances that he could never have foreseen, from the case of multiverse theory being a thing, and Robin being able to actually resist him. 

18 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

The same there is no evidence something other than Starlight can penetrate Imhullu, or anything other than the Lightsphere that can penetrate the Darksphere, or the only thing that can negate the Loptyr tome's Atk halving effect is the Book of Naga, or.... . I've made a point that FE has done a "nothing but X can harm Y" thing before, and this is done without regard for the idea of a multiverse where people can fight each other. These statements are made considering the circumstances, but I wouldn't call them perfectly unbreakable. Given enough time, Gotoh could have made a Starlight replacement with the research and resources- but that would decades or centuries when they need Starlight NOW!

And while I'd like to put Ashera/Yune/Ashunera at the top of the power pyramid (admittedly we never see just what Ashunera can do- but Yune at the moment of complete divorce from Ashera managed to flood the entire world- which is very powerful), owing to a lack of timey-wimey tricks on their part, I'm not sure we can truly say this right now. Although I thank Ashera she didn't resort to timespace silliness, for this hurts Anankos from a writing perspective (or rather is part of his writing problem rather than just causing it), if being perfectly fine for Grima, since all he did was travel back one time.

I'm guessing I accidentally took your paragraph from Omega's citing of it by mistake, my bad.

You raise a very good point. It's similar to how some claim that Falchion cannot defeat Loptyr or Falchion cannot penetrate through Imhullu. But in both cases, Falchion never could be used against them. Against Imhullu, Falchion was in Gharnef's possession. And in Loptyr's case, Falchion was never even in Jugdral. 

Yeah, best not to bring Anankos completely, since he is badly written. 

Also, wasn't Ashunera the one that caused the worldwide flood? To be honest, Ashunera does rank top of the pyramid for me. She is a true god, not like Naga, Fuma, and Mila. Naga said that she has neither the ability of making nor unmaking. Ashunera does have such abilities. Well, the making part at least. 

[Morswo]

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

When Grima is revived, there are no politics anymore.

I know, this is what I think, that's why I mentioned the undead army and his sheer power, for his political power. He simply rules with fear, if someone is still alive.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Morswo

[Slumber]

35 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

While I do agree that even Grima would not likely win a fight against Ashera, but there's no telling what would happen. Grima is the only entity that has destroyed the world. I honestly won't count Anankos to this, though, since Heirs of Fate is beyond stupid.

This was based mostly on circumstances, though.

Ashera is a being of order. She doesn't want to destroy the world, that'd be more something that Yune would be capable of doing. But Ashera is malevolent while Yune is benevolent, so their ideologies don't really line up with their roles in the world. But again, Ashera wants order. She wouldn't destroy the world, she'd simply get rid of the things causing turmoil, which is what she does... Fairly easily at the end of part 3 in RD.

Grima, meanwhile, lived in an age when virtually all dragons were gone. The ones that remained has become manaketes, and Naga, the only one capable of stopping him, wasn't really in a position to resist him or act with the full capabilities of her powers(As is pretty typical of Naga for some reason). So Grima, having the opportunity to, killed Naga. Which more or less gave him free reign to do what he wanted, which was cause death and destruction.

I don't think simply saying "Grima destroyed the world" is as big of a deal as it ultimately sounds. At least when it comes to determining how strong these end game forces are. Yes, Grima's super powerful, but his circumstances were a bit more skewed in his favor compared to most, which freed him of restrictions that other villains don't have the pleasure of escaping. He just had the unfortunate side effect of sharing his life essence with Robin.

Ashera's literally unstoppable without Yune's blessing, which is going to be a big problem for anyone who doesn't get on Yune's good side. Grima's also technically unkillable if he doesn't kill himself in a roundabout way, but we know Naga's powers can at least put him to sleep for 1000 years.

[omegaxis1]

7 minutes ago, Slumber said:

This was based mostly on circumstances, though.

Ashera is a being of order. She doesn't want to destroy the world, that'd be more something that Yune would be capable of doing. But Ashera is malevolent while Yune is benevolent, so their ideologies don't really line up with their roles in the world. But again, Ashera wants order. She wouldn't destroy the world, she'd simply get rid of the things causing turmoil, which is what she does... Fairly easily at the end of part 3 in RD.

Grima, meanwhile, lived in an age when virtually all dragons were gone. The ones that remained has become manaketes, and Naga, the only one capable of stopping him, wasn't really in a position to resist him or act with the full capabilities of her powers(As is pretty typical of Naga for some reason). So Grima, having the opportunity to, killed Naga. Which more or less gave him free reign to do what he wanted, which was cause death and destruction.

I don't think simply saying "Grima destroyed the world" is as big of a deal as it ultimately sounds. At least when it comes to determining how strong these end game forces are. Yes, Grima's super powerful, but his circumstances were a bit more skewed in his favor compared to most, which freed him of restrictions that other villains don't have the pleasure of escaping. He just had the unfortunate side effect of sharing his life essence with Robin.

Ashera's literally unstoppable without Yune's blessing, which is going to be a big problem for anyone who doesn't get on Yune's good side. Grima's also technically unkillable if he doesn't kill himself in a roundabout way, but we know Naga's powers can at least put him to sleep for 1000 years.

See, there's some parts I somewhat disagree. Yes, Grima did come at a time most dragons were gone. However, we've seen in various games of how even if there is a powerful being around, the humans have always got the chance to fight back most of the time, best illustrated by Jahn in Binding Blade, in that though the dragons were superior, the humans were just too numerous. Grima isn't just a powerful entity. He basically can create a limitless supply of Risen that can fight for him. The dead are his to command. And anyone living also end up turning to Risen at times, explained by Brady in Death's Embrace. And definitely turn Risen after death. And we've also seen cases where Grima can easily create a devastating release of power that brought everyone to their knees, which Grima calls "flexing muscles", and Basilio calls a literal "catastrophe".

And Naga has been hailed for being the most powerful dragon in Archanea, with very little showing anyone that can truly compete with her. Grima is the only one that declares that he has killed Naga, albeit in Future Past 3. Though it seems that he simply cannot kill the role of Naga, just the Manakete that inherited it. Even with all her power, the best that she can do is put him to sleep for 1000 years, it would be questionable if Ashera can also kill Grima. 

Ashera's powers seems to not be fully capable of working on certain beings. Either beings that are stronger than expected, or are something that was beyond her own creation, in Tellius series case being the Branded. 

Grima is a creation of a madman and includes messing with the dead. And in other cases, Grima is not even from Ashera's world. So just how far can Ashera affect him? If he is beyond the goddess' creations, and not from her world, can she defeat him? 

Maybe she can petrify him, but in which case, would Grima be able to break out? 

Who knows. But the entire case of Grima destroying the world should not just be said to be not a big deal. Loptyr, Medeus, Duma, nor even the Demon King in Sacred Stones managed that. They couldn't even fully take a continent. Grima had underestimated the power of others at first, but 1000 years later when he wakes up, he had effectively won. Naga had to rely on time travel to stop him, and had he known that changing the past wouldn't change the future but just create a new world, Grima wouldn't have gone back in time. Just resumed destroying the world so that he could grow stronger, as Naga said that Grima seeks to only add to his power.

[vanguard333]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Ashera's powers seems to not be fully capable of working on certain beings. Either beings that are stronger than expected, or are something that was beyond her own creation, in Tellius series case being the Branded. 

With the branded, it wasn't that they were beyond her creation; it was that she had no idea the branded existed. She had no idea that there was anything other than Laguz and Beorc, and so her turning-everyone-into-a-statue spell only targeted the Laguz and Beorc.

Remember; Yune was surprised to learn of the existence of Branded. She first learned about the Branded through Micaiah, and, even then, she thought that Micaiah was the only one, and had no idea that branded meant mixed laguz and beorc heritage. When she speaks with Stefan, she is horrified to learn to the Branded are largely treated with disgust by Beorc and Laguz, and even more horrified to hear that "It's said that a union between laguz and beorc is a crime against the goddess." Yune had no idea, and neither did Ashera.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

With the branded, it wasn't that they were beyond her creation; it was that she had no idea the branded existed. She had no idea that there was anything other than Laguz and Beorc, and so her turning-everyone-into-a-statue spell only targeted the Laguz and Beorc.

Remember; Yune was surprised to learn of the existence of Branded. She first learned about the Branded through Micaiah, and, even then, she thought that Micaiah was the only one, and had no idea that branded meant mixed laguz and beorc heritage. When she speaks with Stefan, she is horrified to learn to the Branded are largely treated with disgust by Beorc and Laguz, and even more horrified to hear that "It's said that a union between laguz and beorc is a crime against the goddess." Yune had no idea, and neither did Ashera.

I don't believe that what she fired was just something targeted on specifics, but rather just all living creatures in general. But you could be right. Not like I can be sure of what I'm saying since Tellius has left some questions that were left unanswered.

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

I don't believe that what she fired was just something targeted on specifics, but rather just all living creatures in general. But you could be right. Not like I can be sure of what I'm saying since Tellius has left some questions that were left unanswered.

Well; it didn't seem to turn plants and animals to stone; just laguz and beorc. So it more than likely was targeted on laguz and beorc specifically. 

[omegaxis1]

Just now, vanguard333 said:

Well; it didn't seem to turn plants and animals to stone; just laguz and beorc. So it more than likely was targeted on laguz and beorc specifically. 

Did we actually see any normal animals turn to stone? I don't recall any normal animals being mentioned or seen. I wouldn't actually say that plants would be affected, since while they are living, are not sentient, so they would naturally not be part of chaos. 

[vanguard333]

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Did we actually see any normal animals turn to stone? I don't recall any normal animals being mentioned or seen. I wouldn't actually say that plants would be affected, since while they are living, are not sentient, so they would naturally not be part of chaos. 

Bastian mentions having set aside Renning's old steed from before the Mad King's war, before he set out to find Renning. It's a small detail, but clearly that horse hadn't been turned to stone. All the backgrounds and cinematics at the end of part 3 and in part 4 show everything as normal... except for the people. Not only that, but every time someone talks about what happened, they say things like "turned everyone to stone" and "save the people who were turned to stone".

Anyway; I think the game writers wrote it as if thinking we would naturally think that it happened to beorc and laguz only.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, vanguard333 said:

Bastian mentions having set aside Renning's old steed from before the Mad King's war, before he set out to find Renning. It's a small detail, but clearly that horse hadn't been turned to stone. All the backgrounds and cinematics at the end of part 3 and in part 4 show everything as normal... except for the people. Not only that, but every time someone talks about what happened, they say things like "turned everyone to stone" and "save the people who were turned to stone".

Anyway; I think the game writers wrote it as if thinking we would naturally think that it happened to beorc and laguz only.

Wouldn't necessarily be the first time they did something and just said because. I mean, despite trying to turn beorc and laguz into stone, she failed to do that to anyone. Tibarn believes that its just cause they are strong. 

But... Izuka also did't turn into stone, and he's definitely not strong at all. Nor did his Feral Laguz. And Izuka wasn't unsealed by Ashera since he was with neither side.

It's more of a convenience that party members and other villains just happen to be not petrified just for the sake of plot. 

[vanguard333]

21 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Wouldn't necessarily be the first time they did something and just said because. I mean, despite trying to turn beorc and laguz into stone, she failed to do that to anyone. Tibarn believes that its just cause they are strong. 

But... Izuka also did't turn into stone, and he's definitely not strong at all. Nor did his Feral Laguz. And Izuka wasn't unsealed by Ashera since he was with neither side.

It's more of a convenience that party members and other villains just happen to be not petrified just for the sake of plot. 

I suppose. My original point about the Branded still stands, as the game goes out of its way to say why they were unaffected.

...Maybe we should go back to discussing the dragon villains?

[omegaxis1]

Just now, vanguard333 said:

I suppose. My original point about the Branded still stands, as the game goes out of its way to say why they were unaffected.

...Maybe we should go back to discussing the dragon villains?

Yeah, that would be better. XD

[Slumber]

I had a big 'ol dumb comment typed up, and half of it got deleted when the site went down.

Anyway, since we should probably go back to discussing dragons, anyway...

Anankos is a weird one. He has arguably higher highs than any of the other dragons in terms of feats(Being able to warp time and space being one of them), which leads me to believe he could wipe the floor with just about any other dragon... but then he also has some trouble doing things that it seemed like other dragons were capable of doing pretty casually.

On top of his... uh, "mental" problems, it's really tough to get a feel for him.

 

[omegaxis1]

2 hours ago, Slumber said:

I had a big 'ol dumb comment typed up, and half of it got deleted when the site went down.

Anyway, since we should probably go back to discussing dragons, anyway...

Anankos is a weird one. He has arguably higher highs than any of the other dragons in terms of feats(Being able to warp time and space being one of them), which leads me to believe he could wipe the floor with just about any other dragon... but then he also has some trouble doing things that it seemed like other dragons were capable of doing pretty casually.

On top of his... uh, "mental" problems, it's really tough to get a feel for him.

Yeah. Anankos did seem to be extremely powerful... but Anankos is a lot like Fates as a whole, being that he's terribly written. He had some nice stuff going, but frankly, the fact that he was able to terraform the planet of the original Awakening world just like that seems to be extremely stupid. And though he's actually become a multiverse conquerer in Heirs of Fate... that story was even more horribly written than Fates. 

Not to mention that Anankos stated that Naga is incredibly powerful as well, and is in complete awe in the fact that she could move so many people through time like she did, when such a thing is taboo and cannot be bent so easily. And though this was the weakened human Anankos, he does have full memory of his power in his prime, so he was speaking from experience. 

And though Anankos has the regard in him possessing Garon and Takumi got him to destroy the Yato in the two routes... the Yato is by far one of the most underwhelming legendary weapons ever. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Did we actually see any normal animals turn to stone? I don't recall any normal animals being mentioned or seen. I wouldn't actually say that plants would be affected, since while they are living, are not sentient, so they would naturally not be part of chaos. 

From 4-1:

Ike:
“Amazing. We’ve been traveling for miles now, and there hasn’t been a single moving person.”

Nailah:
“And yet the other plants and animals seem completely unaffected. The only creatures turned to stone were laguz and beorc… A miracle of the goddess, indeed.”

Therefore I am inclined to think Ashera's judgement was done with pinpoint accuracy.

The second judgement, that she was preparing to do prior to being slain by Ike, might not have spared the Branded now that she probably knew that they existed since they weren't petrified, even if she did not understand the details behind them. But we don't know for certain since Flash Stopper Round 2 never happens.

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Ashera's powers seems to not be fully capable of working on certain beings. Either beings that are stronger than expected, or are something that was beyond her own creation, in Tellius series case being the Branded. 

Ashera didn't create the Beorc or Laguz, either Ashunera made the creatures that became the Zunanma, or Ashunera created the Zunanma, RD itself says the former, the artbooks say the latter. Either way, they agree the Beorc and Laguz evolved independently of divine will from the Zunanma. If Ashunera had controlled their evolution, they would have never gotten out of hand I would think, and thus she would never have split in two, since the ultimate cause of that was Beorc-Laguz fighting. (It says something how screwed up the B&L are that a goddess can't peacefully stop their fighting and ends up tearing herself apart over it.)

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Grima is a creation of a madman and includes messing with the dead. And in other cases, Grima is not even from Ashera's world. So just how far can Ashera affect him? If he is beyond the goddess' creations, and not from her world, can she defeat him? 

Probably just a contest of raw power vs. raw power. I'm sure those AoE attacks of her's would hurt you regardless of where you came from. I don't think her powers would suddenly stop working on people from other dimensions, big light explosions are painful. 

And assuming Order and Chaos are fundamental elements of any world, which is fairly reasonable, if Ashera hitched a ride to Ylisse and Valm, what is to say she couldn't soak in some peace there and add it to her present power? Grima of course could usurp stuff from Tellius by the same token- maybe steal Yune and integrate her into its being?

4 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, wasn't Ashunera the one that caused the worldwide flood? To be honest, Ashunera does rank top of the pyramid for me. She is a true god, not like Naga, Fuma, and Mila. Naga said that she has neither the ability of making nor unmaking. Ashunera does have such abilities. Well, the making part at least. 

The artbooks seem to suggest a complex picture of things, which I don't feel I completely grasp even though I may. First, the Laguz and Beorc, before getting those names from Ashunera, start fighting. Then Ashunera fails to peacefully resolve this, and begins to undergo an inner psychological divide. Ashera and Yune form, with Ashera maintaining control of the one body. A combination of desire to end the suffering caused by Laguz-Beorc conflict and Yune's loneliness from being shoved aside internally by Ashera, then causes the Great Flood. The one body of Ashunera caused it, but only the Yune half willed it, if still using the power of both halves. After the Great Flood, Ashera finally banishes Yune from their one body and Ashunera is officially no more at all.

There is this one line from 4-Final-5 which might mean Ashera took her name before the physical split:

Ashunera, the Dawn Goddess… The name your ancestors gave me so long ago. I should like to hear it again.”

Yet there is a 24 year gap between the Great Flood and formation of the Kingdom of Begnion, which presumably happened in the same year of Yune's defeat and the creation of the Covenant just before which this line was spoken. So it is possible that it is just referring to people having stopped calling Ashera Ashunera 24 years ago, and not any further back.

This is also assuming the "innocent, but devastating emotional outburst with her divine power, leading to many losing their lives" is the Great Flood. I'm pretty sure it is, but that they don't direct word it that way leaves a little bit of annoying ambiguity. Sources:

http://i.imgur.com/EC8EV7F.png

http://i.imgur.com/Emxafod.png?1

 

I do agree with you the power to create from nothing/primordial chaos, which Ashunera does, is among the greatest and most powerful powers a deity can have. It is why I put the Golden Goddesses of Hyrule over Hylia in my mythological hierarchy of the Legend of Zelda series. It's just timespace trickery across multiple worlds is very powerful as well. But who is to say Ashunera couldn't try her hand at this? We just don't know.

Ashera (or Sephiran) did say she would start over, as in create new life presumably, once the judgement was complete. And remembering things better, she can make equivalents to the Vallites and Risen. She does this to busy the characters you don't bring in the Tower of Guidance; she just used up the living Begnionites before this and then had the last of them, on top of Spirits and Dragon Laguz, defend her inside it. I was underestimating her here.

4 hours ago, Slumber said:

Ashera's literally unstoppable without Yune's blessing, which is going to be a big problem for anyone who doesn't get on Yune's good side. Grima's also technically unkillable if he doesn't kill himself in a roundabout way, but we know Naga's powers can at least put him to sleep for 1000 years.

I reiterate that Yune's very being is Chaos, and that is why she is able to penetrate Ashera's Orderly blessings. Assuming one not Yune could harvest Chaotic energies and weaponize them, there is little reason for me to think that it would be impossible for them to damage Ashera. Obviously Yune would know how to do this best, but I think Grima or Loptyr could learn how to do this.

Medeus, and Loptyr's final words if killed by Seliph, both say that they will return as long as greed exists in the hearts of men. Not sure how much to trust these cases given the context of being uttered by dying vengeful Shadow Dragons, but it sounds like M&L can use negative emotions for power, which isn't that far removed from being able to utilize Chaos.

 

4 hours ago, Morswo said:

I know, this is what I think, that's why I mentioned the undead army and his sheer power, for his political power. He simply rules with fear, if someone is still alive.

The sense I got from Future Past was much the same- Grima seems to have worked to kill off nearly the entire world, very few sounding to be left among the living. I don't think Grima wants to rule over people, they like exerting their superiority, but they prefer destruction.

 

4 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

And Naga has been hailed for being the most powerful dragon in Archanea, with very little showing anyone that can truly compete with her. Grima is the only one that declares that he has killed Naga, albeit in Future Past 3. Though it seems that he simply cannot kill the role of Naga, just the Manakete that inherited it. Even with all her power, the best that she can do is put him to sleep for 1000 years, it would be questionable if Ashera can also kill Grima. 

You could effectively kill Naga by killing all the Manaketes, and by killing everyone who would serve her. So unless she found a niche in the world of darkness to hide, accrue power, and begin good life anew to fight for her, Grima killing everyone but her would have the same result for the world- a world of the dark, dead, and without hope of better.

 

4 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Naga had to rely on time travel to stop him, and had he known that changing the past wouldn't change the future but just create a new world, Grima wouldn't have gone back in time.

You know, while I do not contest what Future Past did and I acknowledge it as canon, I wonder if it is what the developers originally intended regarding the way the multiverse and the effects of time travel play out.

IIRC, the Wave 2 of Awakening DLC, which FP is a part of, was not originally intended for Awakening. It only happened because the 1st Wave sold very well. If so, and Future Past wasn't on the writing table before they realized they could do a Wave 2 and it would be profitable, then it is possible this delay of several months (six between the Japanese April release of Awakening and October when FP released) meant there could be a disconnect in the writing between FP and the main story of Awakening written months or more beforehand. But I don't know, and I'm not sure if there is evidence for or against what FP suggests in the main game.

For a case of what I mean about a delay leading to writing disconnect, I noticed there is a disconnect in Devil Survivor Overclocked's general tone, style, and portrayals between everything not 8th Day and the 8th Days. There is little to suggest the Shomonkai Founder was anything but a crazed cultist outside of Yuzu's 8th Day, which casts him in a more noble portrayal. The 8th Days were added as part of the 3DS port of the game 2 years later. 

Lucina going back in time, while not senseless, is a little more meaningful if she was truly able to change her own world by going back in time, instead of just saving Chrom's. FP would also make her failure in her world even more tragic.

 

But we should get back to big scary dragons....

[Slumber]

20 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Medeus, and Loptyr's final words if killed by Seliph, both say that they will return as long as greed exists in the hearts of men. Not sure how much to trust these cases given the context of being uttered by dying vengeful Shadow Dragons, but it sounds like M&L can use negative emotions for power, which isn't that far removed from being able to utilize Chaos.

It might be that there's something more going on with Shadow Dragons than we ever really got exposition for. Because as it is, they just seem like really strong Earth Dragons.

But some stuff surrounding Loptyr and Medeus goes beyond just "being strong", and yeah, the idea that Loptyr and Medeus might be quasi-immortal through the darkness of humanity that they both talk about seems like it may have something to do with it. Or it might just be one of those "AS LONG AS EVIL EXISTS, I WIN!" kind of declarations villains tend to use.

This is kind of why I want more games set in the Archanea verse. It has interesting dangling threads in its lore that can be tugged on for content. It'd be cool to see more on things like Shadow Dragons and fully explain them, rather than us getting "Medeus has turned into a Shadow Dragon!" "Oh no, not a Shadow Dragon, we have to stop him before he does Shadow Dragon things!".

As for that kind of stuff being the "utilization of chaos"... It seems different compared to Yune. Yune was able to manipulate and passively generate chaos, not just actively cause it and thrive off of it like Grima and potentially Loptyr and Medeus. Ashera's first act after awakening was to put a stop to beings that she felt were thriving and causing chaos, which lead to her damn near exterminating humanity.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Slumber

[omegaxis1]

11 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I reiterate that Yune's very being is Chaos, and that is why she is able to penetrate Ashera's Orderly blessings. Assuming one not Yune could harvest Chaotic energies and weaponize them, there is little reason for me to think that it would be impossible for them to damage Ashera. Obviously Yune would know how to do this best, but I think Grima or Loptyr could learn how to do this.

Medeus, and Loptyr's final words if killed by Seliph, both say that they will return as long as greed exists in the hearts of men. Not sure how much to trust these cases given the context of being uttered by dying vengeful Shadow Dragons, but it sounds like M&L can use negative emotions for power, which isn't that far removed from being able to utilize Chaos.

Actually, I think they were just saying that it was because of humanity's own evil that they had revived in the first place. Medeus only hated humans because of how humans treated Manaketes. Medeus also only revived because Gharnef let jealousy rule his heart. Loptyr created the blood pact because Galle was consumed with greed and lust for power. And Manfroy had revived Loptyr to have Julius be the vessel out of revenge for how humans persecuted the Lopto Sect. 

So it was the evil of mankind itself that resulted in all these catastrophes in some cases.

Also, something Yune says caught my eye:

Quote

“…Let’s get everyone together. There’s no better time than now. I was hoping to avoid this until we reached Ashera… Actually, I hoped not to have to do it at all… But she’s left me with no choice. I will give you the blessings of Yune, goddess of chaos and freedom. In their natural state, the attacks of mortal creatures have no effect on divine beings.”

This also reminds me on something regarding Ashnard. Despite having armor like the Black Knight's, blessed by the goddess, he is able to be harmed by the other blessed weapons, but also the Laguz Kings as well, and one being the shadow of a Laguz King. Either way, it seems like certain cases allows other beings to still harm those that are blessed by the goddess. 

In that regard, it could very well indicate that other beings could also have the potential to inflict harm to Ashera as well.

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 minutes ago, Slumber said:

As for that kind of stuff being the "utilization of chaos"... It seems different compared to Yune. Yune was able to manipulate and passively generate chaos, not just actively cause it and thrive off of it like Grima and potentially Loptyr and Medeus. Ashera's first act after awakening was to put a stop to beings that she felt were thriving and causing chaos, which lead to her damn near exterminating humanity.

You have a point. Everyone comments that Ashera cleared the air of chaos, to the point that Reyson could save Renning without help. And even factoring in the chaos created by fighting the Disciples of Order, Yune would have had very little chaos to use for promoting Ike, Sothe, Micaiah, and then blessing everyone inside the Tower of Guidance, before lending all her strength to Ike to subdue Ashera. Being able to generate her own, and she constantly complains of just having awakened (Ashera just awoke too, but presumably she slept with a much greater store of power), would explain how she can do what she does.

 

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

This also reminds me on something regarding Ashnard. Despite having armor like the Black Knight's, blessed by the goddess, he is able to be harmed by the other blessed weapons, but also the Laguz Kings as well, and one being the shadow of a Laguz King. Either way, it seems like certain cases allows other beings to still harm those that are blessed by the goddess. 

It is possible the blessing on the BK armor and Ashnard's are weaker than that bestowed by Ashera on herself and her highest servants. Either Sephiran made the blessings on the armor, or they are blessings from ~800 years ago placed on the armor of those who fought for Yune (she did bless soldiers according to the Japanese script). Assuming Yune went for the "quantity over quality" approach as Ashera does with the Disciples, and factoring in 800 years of decay, this could explain the relative weakness of the Ashnard and BK armor.

[Slumber]

13 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

This also reminds me on something regarding Ashnard. Despite having armor like the Black Knight's, blessed by the goddess, he is able to be harmed by the other blessed weapons, but also the Laguz Kings as well, and one being the shadow of a Laguz King. Either way, it seems like certain cases allows other beings to still harm those that are blessed by the goddess. 

In that regard, it could very well indicate that other beings could also have the potential to inflict harm to Ashera as well.

I mean, Yune flat-out says mortals can't harm Ashera. Artifacts blessed by her are likely much weaker than she is. So if literally one of the strongest beings on the known planet like Giffca could barely put a dent in Ashnard, I don't expect he'd be able to scratch Ashera in full without Yune's blessing.

On the high high HIGH end like Dheginsea, yes, he might be able to harm Ashera without a God's blessing, but Dheginsea is the most powerful mortal in Tellius by a wide margin, and damn near up there with some of the strongest full-on dragons in the franchise, and similar to Grima, is capable of bringing people to their knees just by announcing his presence.

I mean--

Wait, we're not supposed to be comparing Ashera to the dragons. This thread is about the dragons.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Slumber

[omegaxis1]

LOL XD We keep getting off topic. 

But mostly because Dheginsea is also among one of the most powerful dragons, and his power is used because he can pose a fight against even Ahsera. 

Apart from him, the remaining dragons that I feel are truly up there in power are Grima and Anankos, the only two dragons that can rival with Naga, the strongest dragon that's known in Archanea. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

12 hours ago, Slumber said:

I mean, Yune flat-out says mortals can't harm Ashera. Artifacts blessed by her are likely much weaker than she is. So if literally one of the strongest beings on the known planet like Giffca could barely put a dent in Ashnard, I don't expect he'd be able to scratch Ashera in full without Yune's blessing.

 

"Barely put a dent" might be understating it. Assuming the BK had the same quality of blessed armor as that he gave to Ashnard, and that the BK and Ashnard are of comparable strength (we never find out who is stronger), then we have a little line from Chapter 7 PoR.

Black Knight:
“You will not continue? Then I will finish…”

Black Knight:
“…So close.Now is not the time for me to deal with him. Hmph. You get to keep your head today, boy.”

What the script here on SF doesn't indicate is that there was a roar between these two lines. Said roar is later admitted by Caineghis to have been his. So rather than kill Ike and Greil, the BK fled from Caineghis. He suggests Caineghis would have been a nuisance he could have killed easily, but let us be honest, if Caine was only that, the BK would have stayed there. He left because the Red Lion King most likely was strong enough to threaten his life.

The whole reason the BK later waits to capture Leanne, is because he doesn't want to fight Tibarn. Well partly this is because of the warp powder strength drain, but I'd also think Tibarn even if the BK was at full power would be too much his equal to try a kidnapping with him present.

 

Getting back to comparing dragons, the one issue with Dheginsea is that unlike Naga, Grima, and Anankos, he displays no magical powers beyond that little AoE attack. Naga can bless and craft weaponry and travel through time, Grima can make undead legions, Anankos can defecate new abilities with every passing day. Dheg has just raw strength, which both Grima and Anankos have as well. Naga... well we never actually see her in battle mode, the closest we get is the incomplete resurrection that is Nagi (who statistically if Tiki is trained ends up being inferior, for whatever this is worth in lore) and the Naga tome.