Grand Hero Battle Before Dawn: Ursula

[TheTuckingFypo]

14 hours ago, Kiran said:

@TheTuckingFypo You could do it with Reinhardt, Frederick (at least 33 def, might need more or less depending on health growth), Lissa (with Rehabilitate), and F!Robin (needs to have 31 atk)

Turn 1: Get Robin to OHKO Ursula, Reinhardt in the little bottom corner to bait the bottom dagger and Lissa on top of him. Frederick should be top-right diagonal to the healer

Turn 2: Robin moves and attacks the knight from across the wall, Lissa heals Rein. Fred moves to prevent the knight from moving and Rein stay to bait the bottom dagger.

Turn 3: Robin kills the knight, Fred attacks dagger, Rein baits again, Lissa heals Rein. 

Fred kills top dagger, Rein keeps baiting until bottom dagger dies, Cav will come next turn.  Get Rein to get rid of Cav.

Actually, if possible I'd like to see a visual. That or describe placement like the level was a battleship map. Please and thanks

[Sentinel07]

Ugh, I FINALLY got past the 4* battle half an hour ago, after at least a dozen attempts and lots of grinding.

Nino needed Eirika’s buffing to double and kill Ursula in the first round, while Setsuna took out the Ninka. Then Catria took out the Cavalier and tanked one hit from the top Ninja. Thankfully, at that point, the Ninja and Knight never moved to another spot, leaving them as easy targets for Nino and Catria.

[LordFrigid]

31 minutes ago, TheTuckingFypo said:

Actually, if possible I'd like to see a visual. That or describe placement like the level was a battleship map. Please and thanks

Edit: Refer to his below.

 

Battleship maps are lettered on the rows right? In that case, I think what he's going for is:

T1: Reinhardt to E1, F!Robin to D3, Healer to D1, Frederick to C2. EP: Ursula suicides on F!Robin, Thief attacks Reinhardt, gets drawn back by the Cavalier (who's just super Draw-Back-happy).

T2: Frederick to D4 (sandwiching the Knight between Frederick and the enemy Thief), F!Robin to C2, attack Knight. Heal Reinhardt. Note: no Frederick variant bar some flavor of merged 5* will ORKO that Knight. However, F!Robin and Frederick together might be able to take him down? If that's the case, don't have F!Robin attack the Knight, because the Thief will murder her after the Knight kills himself on Frederick.

T3: F!Robin finishes the Knight off from C2. Frederick to C4, attack Thief. Heal Reinhardt.

Eventually the bottom Thief will kill himself on Reinhardt, and Frederick will finish off the top Thief. Once the bottom Thief dies, the Red Cav will go break a wall now that there's nothing more to Draw Back. At that point, Reinhardt trots over to D3 and nukes him.

Edited March 12, 2017 by LordFrigid

[Kiran]

29 minutes ago, TheTuckingFypo said:

Actually, if possible I'd like to see a visual. That or describe placement like the level was a battleship map. Please and thanks

Spoiler

Turn 1

 

Turn 2:

Turn 3:

I won't illustrate the rest, but Fred finishes off top dagger, Rein keeps baiting the bottom dagger until it dies

After Rein kills off the bottom dagger, the cav should come next turn. Use Rein to finish off cav

Hopefully this is clear enough. If not, I'll be happy to answer any questions. Sorry for potato quality

Edited March 12, 2017 by Kiran

[Kotg Everest]

4 hours ago, Finn1412 said:

Hi! For all those having problems you should see this video:

All you need as a minimum is:

3* Sukabi (+Def)

3* Robin/Nino

3* Olivia

3* Lissa

 

 

Thanks i did this exacly and worked.
Luck my Subaki was level 40

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

6 hours ago, Finn1412 said:

Hi! For all those having problems you should see this video:

All you need as a minimum is:

3* Sukabi (+Def)

3* Robin/Nino

3* Olivia

3* Lissa

 

 

Wow, that Lissa only had Reconcile too, lol.

I hope in the future, there'll be a Grand Hero Battle where debuffing Staves like Gravity will find use. That'd make for some cool strategy.

[eclipse]

Just told Ursula to get lost.  Used Frederick (-Def), Subaki, Olivia, and F!Robin.

Subaki can 2RKO the sword cavalier, and even with the -Def, Frederick can survive in the top corner for most of the round.  Olivia needed to tank a hit from the knight.

[Skids]

So I been having trouble with the lunatic version of this fight and need the wisdom of the board to help out.  Been trying to get a good team to fight win this but due to mainly having infantry character the two thieves just have my number. Like with the bottom one just one hit KO a 5* LV40 Takumi.  So thoughts of good team comp I can make to do this and what position I should be doing.  

My resources. LV40 5* Female Robin, Male Robin, Lucina, Takumi(not sure on their IV)

LV40 4* Cain, Lilina, Fae, Wrys, Azuma

4* Cherche LV38, $8 Chrom Lv 38, 4* Felicia lv37,  3* Shanna LV32, and 3* Olivia Lv31

and other character I have is too low level 1-20 or low star 2-3.  Where my only armor character is LV 20 3* Draug

So any recommendations on team comp and moving them as puzzle pieces for this.  Female Robin is a given given how she can defeat Ursula with ease. Cherche I been power leveling her to increase her stats to have that defense wall against the thieves.  But the other two characters for team comp have been a pain to figure out who works best or not kill by, their all rush that one character.

[eclipse]

2 minutes ago, Skids said:

So I been having trouble with the lunatic version of this fight and need the wisdom of the board to help out.  Been trying to get a good team to fight win this but due to mainly having infantry character the two thieves just have my number. Like with the bottom one just one hit KO a 5* LV40 Takumi.  So thoughts of good team comp I can make to do this and what position I should be doing.  

My resources. LV40 5* Female Robin, Male Robin, Lucina, Takumi(not sure on their IV)

LV40 4* Cain, Lilina, Fae, Wrys, Azuma

4* Cherche LV38, $8 Chrom Lv 38, 4* Felicia lv37,  3* Shanna LV32, and 3* Olivia Lv31

and other character I have is too low level 1-20 or low star 2-3.  Where my only armor character is LV 20 3* Draug

So any recommendations on team comp and moving them as puzzle pieces for this.  Female Robin is a given given how she can defeat Ursula with ease. Cherche I been power leveling her to increase her stats to have that defense wall against the thieves.  But the other two characters for team comp have been a pain to figure out who works best or not kill by, their all rush that one character.

Cain might be able to take on the red cavalier, while Cherche cools her heels in the corner.  Give Cherche, Cain, Olivia, and F!Robin a shot.

[red-and-soulless]

Well, after around 5 stamina potions and a lot of grief (roughly half of those stamina potions were wasted on exhaustion fueled misplays), I beat it on Lunatic.

My team consisted of:

• 5* Lvl 38 Hector (+Hp, -Atk) - The nature didn't make too much of a difference, as I only needed Hector to a) quickly eliminate Ursula + the thieves and b) provide Spur Attack buffs, and +Atk wouldn't have sped up the kill on Ursula any.
• 4* Lvl 40 Effie (+Def, - Res) - The nature helped with Effie's tanking a bit, but anything that was not -Atk likely would have worked.
• 4* Lvl 35 Olivia (+HP, -Atk) - Solely for dance support and Hone Attack.
• 4* Wrys Lvl 36 (+HP, - Spd) - Lissa might have sped things up a little with her Kindled-Fire Balm, but it is entirely possible that Imbue + Rehabilitate was a necessity for some of the close shaves.

The fundamental game plan was to let Hector loose to destroy some fools, but alas, the red cavalier one-rounded Hector, so some creativity was required...

A slightly overblown run-through of the game.

Spoiler

Turns 1 - Turn 2: These were set-up turns, as maneuvering 2 armored units in a tight corridor is not the most pleasant experience in the world.  Thanks to some clutch dancing from Olivia, this went relatively smoothly.

Turn 3:  Again after some dancing, Hector situated himself on the very edge of Ursula's attack range and Effie placed herself right behind him to aggro the bottom dagger.  During the enemy phase, Ursula suicided into Hector and the bottom dagger valiantly tried (and failed) to damage Effie.

Spoiler

 

Turn 3 positioning

Turn 4:  Effie shifted up into the alcove, ready for action next turn, and Hector moved back into Effie's old spot.  Wryse took the opportunity to heal Hector to not quite full HP.  During the enemy phase, both daggers suicided onto Hector.

Turn 5:  Hector shifted back to safety and Effie slid back into Hector's spot to stem the advancing tide.  Olivia and Wrys moved into position, with Olivia situated above Hector and Wrys situated above Effie, in order to healing Effie back to full and simultaneously proc Imbue.  During the enemy phase, the Green armor attacked Effie for 35 damage (and received 1 damage back) and the cavalier drew back the armor.

Spoiler

 

The field after concluding the enemy phase of turn 5.

Turn 6 - Turn n:  There are two different versions of how these turns went down.  In the initial iteration, the only thing I did each turn was heal Effie back to full with Wrys (if Imbue was procced, one heal was sufficient - if not, Olivia danced Wrys to allow for a second heal).  During the enemy phase, the armor knight again attacked Effie for 35 damage (receiving 1 damage in exchange), and this cycle repeated ad nauseam, chipping the armor for 1 damage every turn.  In the updated iteration of these turns, with some fancy manipulating of Olivia and Hector, I was able to get both Hone and Spur Attack applied at once, allowing for Effie to do 11 damage spread between the player and enemy phase (7 during the player phase, 4 during the enemy phase), which saved a significant  amount of time, although it required a) an enemy phase where Effie did 0 damage and b) Wrys being constantly double-danced to allow Effie to survive attacking during the player phase.  The majority of my stamina-sapping screw-ups occurred here.

Spoiler

 

The intermediate position required for the improved strategy.

Turn n + 1 - Conclusion: Eventually the armor knight got whittled down to the point where one round of player phase combat finished him off.  Had this occurred during the enemy phase, it is possible Effie would not have been able to survive the cavalier's counter-attack, so the player phase is pretty essential.  After that happened, Wrys healed Effie back to full, and the cavalier suicided into Effie over the next two turns.

In hindsight, I would have been better off just pairing Hector with someone who could safely one-round the red cavalier from range (maybe Robin-M or Young-Tiki might suffice, I'd have to look into it), but eh, this just barely worked, so I can't complain too much.

Edited April 13, 2017 by red-and-soulless
Due to running out of Attachment space, all the relevant Grand Hero Battle pictures live here: http://imgur.com/a/oClwW

[Ryuke]

2 hours ago, Skids said:

So I been having trouble with the lunatic version of this fight and need the wisdom of the board to help out.  Been trying to get a good team to fight win this but due to mainly having infantry character the two thieves just have my number. Like with the bottom one just one hit KO a 5* LV40 Takumi.  So thoughts of good team comp I can make to do this and what position I should be doing.  

My resources. LV40 5* Female Robin, Male Robin, Lucina, Takumi(not sure on their IV)

LV40 4* Cain, Lilina, Fae, Wrys, Azuma

4* Cherche LV38, $8 Chrom Lv 38, 4* Felicia lv37,  3* Shanna LV32, and 3* Olivia Lv31

and other character I have is too low level 1-20 or low star 2-3.  Where my only armor character is LV 20 3* Draug

So any recommendations on team comp and moving them as puzzle pieces for this.  Female Robin is a given given how she can defeat Ursula with ease. Cherche I been power leveling her to increase her stats to have that defense wall against the thieves.  But the other two characters for team comp have been a pain to figure out who works best or not kill by, their all rush that one character.

Such a nice team.

1. 5* Female Robin to blow up Ursula first (See page 13 or 14[if not earlier] ... that JPN video)

2. Cain should take up the Cavalry Spot.

3. Male Robin to attack the Axe Cav (Note: He MUST survive one hit from a Thief... I had a lv40 5* Tharja... I think MRobin will work-do the math.. I have an avg DEF Tharja and a +SPD BOON)

4. Use Olivia to dance and pull out/attack whenever necessary.

A)If you can take out the Cav fast with Cain ... I dont think you need Cherche... Since Cain can hopefully one shot the BOTTOM thief.

B)If you cant; Take Cherche in... Rather use her to block the spot of the Axe General ... So the Axe General cannot pull out while ... you have your MRobin (or Lilina) spam ... Beware once the Axe General is dead. you have to move in Cherche (I believe Cherche has a really high def... hopefully it helps)

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Ryuke

[TheTuckingFypo]

5 hours ago, Kiran said:

  Hide contents

Turn 1

 

Turn 2:

Turn 3:

I won't illustrate the rest, but Fred finishes off top dagger, Rein keeps baiting the bottom dagger until it dies

After Rein kills off the bottom dagger, the cav should come next turn. Use Rein to finish off cav

Hopefully this is clear enough. If not, I'll be happy to answer any questions. Sorry for potato quality

Oh! Thank you! This actually makes ton of sense! Now I see how you got Freddy to where he was; Wings of Mercy. This is a big help. Thank you!

Now all I gotta do is get my peeps to a sufficient level and fight.

[Skids]

Woohoo final got her 4*.  Ty Eclipse, Ryuke, and everyone for the help with this.  I do appreciate it. End up going with Cherche, Olivia, Female Robin, and Male Robin. I tried a few runs with Cain but the enemy Cav just slaughters him.  I tried looking up his IV and with Rating of 146.  He was worst then theirs lows. So he was drop(may level the new one I got since he seems decent in IVs).

Turn 1

So in order Robin F one shot Ursula.  When Ursula attack.  Cherche took a hit to the face by bottom thief who enemy Cav move afterwards.  Rest of team stay safe.

Turn 2

Robin F did a hit and run on Knight. With Olivia dancing her to safety. Robin M went top to take a hit from the top theif.  While Cherche kept bottom thief and Cav in the hit and run look they do.

Turn 3

Robin M Kills Top theif. Olivia dances him to get him in a better position as I move troops.  I move Cherche to get enemy Cav ready to hit wall. Enemy cav hits wall. Bottom thief position himself to kill soon.

Turn 4

This part become a bit of blur. They come in but just outside of my hit range.  Final preparation of who should be were on my team.

Turn 5

Robin M kills Enemy Cav.  Had to dance him with Olivia to do it but worth it.  Cherche moves into position to prevent bottom thief from hitting anyone else.  Bottom thief hits Cherche

Turn 6-8

Cherche has been taking 8 damage from bottom thief.  At this point she has 23 health. She is in clear range of him with no enemies to save him.  Cherche hunts him done with Minerva and Minerva has a wonderful feast as Ursula joins my team.

 

[mochibird]

Decided to do something crazy and unequip the Brave Lance+ from Hinoka and gave her a Steel Lance. It solved all my problems with the third turn because the cavalier could no longer double Hinoka :)

My team consisted of Camilla 5*, Hinoka 5*, Nino 4* and Olivia 3*.

Quick rundown:

Spoiler

First turn: Placed Nino on the corner where the knight would move down to her range next turn. Olivia should be on Nino's left and Hinoka stays at the tile above Olivia. Placed Camilla within Ursula's range; had her tank the hits from Ursula. Cavalier drags Ursula back and the rest of the enemies close in.

Second turn: Had Olivia dance for Nino to take out the knight with four shots. Camilla moves in to kill the ninja on the upper side. Ursula attacks Camilla again, gets dragged back.

Third turn: Camilla takes out Ursula. Nino drags Camilla back. Moved Hinoka to the tile Nino was previously at and had Olivia dance for her to move at the chokepoint, in front of Camilla. Hinoka takes hits from the cavalier and the ninja, but lives without the -5 spd from her Brave Lance dragging her down.

Fourth turn: Clean up with Nino and Camilla.

 

[PowerVZ]

Okaaaaaay, finally i managed to get that 4* Ursula.. after using my 5 energy potions that is.

My team was consisting of 5* Takumi, 4* Clarine, 4* FRobin, and 4* lvl26 Olivia. (Others are all lvl40).

So FRobin take Ursula out the first turn, and then is useful to take out the green armored knight later, as Takumi acts as a tank and shoots the ninjas down without worrying to take too much damage since they don't double him. Clarine works as a bait for ninjas, qs they don't ORKO her, thus reducing their atk stat, then heals a lot thanks to her skill. Olivia is vital in this map because bad positioning can cost you the game, plus, she allows Takumi to shoot more people without getting in their range, and Clarine to heal even more while recovering herself thanks to her skill.

General strategy, it's all about taking out Ursula right away, then the armored knight, while constantly have an eye on the top ninja who is deadly, and be sure to have somebody which can take on the red cavalier as he's strong and mobile.

Edited March 13, 2017 by PowerVZ

[Infinite Dreams]

On 3/11/2017 at 1:32 PM, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

What's your Kagerou's Bane/Boon again? It was +HP/-Def, right? If so, make sure Cherche has at least Fortify Def 1.

Put your team as Tiki/Cherche/Kagero/F!Robin in that order.

If you haven't figured it out yet, here's a guide (I used Young Tiki because my Adult Tiki is untrained, but same results really):

Turn 1:

  Hide contents

At the start of the turn, Cherche should have handed out Fortify Def. Move Kagerou one square down to bait the lower Thief, who she will manage to tank with 2 HP left I believe. Then, move Tiki down to where Kagerou started; you'll need her later.

The square below F!Robin also works for this bait, but I personally prefer to use this square for the Thief.

Also, note that my Kagerou is carrying Reprisal (2-count), not Retribution. That's because my Kagerou can kill the Thief in one hit, which means Reprisal will be charged for the second Thief. However, yours should only do 38 damage. Shurikenbreaker lets you double, which means you'll hit twice for the kill. This is why you need Retribution, not Reprisal; otherwise, it'll be wasted on the first Thief.

Turn 2:

  Reveal hidden contents

On the enemy phase, the Thief will kill itself on you, and Kagerou should have Retribution charged up. The enemies start closing in, and Ursula should break the left wall. Move Robin down one square to bait Ursula, and Cherche one square up, so you have space to send Tiki and Kagerou back out of the danger zones. It's important that Cherche moves up instead of having Tiki move back to her starting position.

Turn 3:

  Reveal hidden contents

Ursula should kill herself on Robin.That exchange should leave Robin's Glowing Ember (if you bought it) count at 1, which is great. By now, the Thief should be snipe-able by Kagerou over the wall:

Your Kagerou should still be doing 38 damage, but Retribution comes to the rescue. You suffered 30 damage after Fortify Def 1, so 30% of that should be 9. 38 + 9 = 47, so you should one-shot the Thief. After that, move Tiki in to cover Kagerou. You don't need to move F!Robin at all, but I did for really no reason.

Turn 4:

  Reveal hidden contents

The Armor's Threaten Def will go off, but Tiki is bulky, so who cares. The Cavalier will be walled by Tiki, but neither of you will kill each other. The Armor is likely to teleport below the Cavalier, but the only thing it achieves is this:

 

Your first hit will be tanked by Aegis, but then the second hit will trigger Glowing Ember for that delicious damage. Not that it matters much at this point; clean-up should be quick and painless.

This strategy only really needs 3 people; Cherche is the flexible spot, depending on your needs. If you didn't need the Fortify Def, you could have brought Olivia to speed up turn 3. If you have Setsuna instead of Kagerou, then this spot should be taken by a healer, or some fodder to Reciprocal Aid with.

Hope this helps.

 

@silverserpent How did you Limit Break your 4* Robin? Also, if you feel like playing the level again for no reason, Eirika/Elise/Setsuna/F!Robin can beat the level with the strategy in this post, but Takumi won't work.

Yay!  I finally beat the map on Lunatic all thanks to this strategy!  Your instructions were so clear and helpful.  I did everything the same, except I substituted Tiki with Laslow, and it worked out perfectly (finally a use for my favourite character, hehe)!  I was just about to give up on it too, but I figured I'd take a peek in this thread first.  So glad I did.   

(My team was LV37 4* Female Robin, LV38 4* Kagero, LV34 3* Cherche, and LV40 4* Laslow.)

[Ewwgene]

omg....Julia can't ohko her. Time to roll for robin(F) or nino...

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

Just now, Ewwgene said:

omg....Julia can't ohko her. Time to roll for robin(F) or nino...

You can't pull F!Robin from any of the gachas, though. Actually, there is a way to beat Ursula with Julia, and the strat is...somewhere in this thread. I think it's only one or two pages back. What other Heroes do you have, though?

[Ewwgene]

3 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

You can't pull F!Robin from any of the gachas, though. Actually, there is a way to beat Ursula with Julia, and the strat is...somewhere in this thread. I think it's only one or two pages back. What other Heroes do you have, though?

Azura, Julia, Sanaki and Effie

I was so close to winning but..because i can't one shot Ursula and that assasin kept healing her that's why my effie died in the end.

and Julia is -hp +res... darn it

Edited March 13, 2017 by Ewwgene

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

3 minutes ago, Ewwgene said:

Azura, Julia, Sanaki and Effie

I was so close to winning but..because i can't one shot Ursula and that assasin kept healing her that's why my effie died in the end.

Azura is good, but Sanaki won't help you much on this map, as even Tharja struggles. Any other usable units you have?

Also, no problem, @Infinite Dreams.

Edited March 13, 2017 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[eclipse]

4 minutes ago, Ewwgene said:

Azura, Julia, Sanaki and Effie

I was so close to winning but..because i can't one shot Ursula and that assasin kept healing her that's why my effie died in the end.

and Julia is -hp +res... darn it

Swap Azura with Olivia, if you have her.  Hone Atk might give you the boost needed to OHKO Ursula with Julia.

And swap Sanaki for a tanky non-infantry, so you can distract a thief for free.

Edited March 13, 2017 by eclipse

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

Swap Azura with Olivia, if you have her.  Hone Atk might give you the boost needed to OHKO Ursula with Julia.

And swap Sanaki for a tanky non-infantry, so you can distract a thief for free.

Actually now that I think about it... Ewwgene just started playing today, didn't he? He asked which account he should keep.

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Actually now that I think about it... Ewwgene just started playing today, didn't he? He asked which account he should keep.

Maybe?  If so, then that's going to REALLY suck, because I'm positive a level 40 Julia with the proper attack boosts can OHKO Ursula.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

12 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Maybe?  If so, then that's going to REALLY suck, because I'm positive a level 40 Julia with the proper attack boosts can OHKO Ursula.

Actually, she really can't; she needs to reach 67 Atk to OHKO Ursula, and +Atk Julia only goes up to 52. The 15-point gap is impossible to bridge, as far as I know.

However, if you have a +Spd Julia, then you can use Rally/Hone Spd + Spur Spd to reach 38 Spd, allowing you to double Ursula and ORKO. I don't think Ewwgene has those resources, though.

And his Julia isn't +Spd. RIP.

Edited March 13, 2017 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[azurrys]

Whew, okay. Despite going through a lot of the advice in the thread, I still can't beat the Lunatic map, so time to ask for help.

Here are my noteworthy resources:
 

Spoiler

 

5*
Lvl 40 Reinhardt (+ATK -SPD)
Lvl 37 Camilla (+RES -ATK)
Lvl 37 Tharja (+ATK -DEF)
Lvl 37+1 Cordelia (boon unknown, -HP)
Lvl 36 Sakura (boon/bane unknown)

4*
Lvl 21 Olivia (from Hero Battle; neutral)
Lvl 20 Lissa (boon/bane unknown)
Lvl 18 Beruka (boon/bane unknown)

Untrained
4* Stahl (boon/bane unknown)
4* Jagen (+SPD -HP)
4* Setsuna (+DEF -SPD)
3* Nino (+HP -SPD)
3* Frederick (+SPD -ATK)
3* Gunter (+RES -DEF)

I don't have F!Robin, by the way, I started playing after her event ended. I also only have ~14k feathers and can't boost anyone to 5*.

 

I've been trying to tackle this with a team of Reinhardt, Camilla, Tharja and Olivia using the strategy outlined on Page 4 by Raven, and came incredibly close except for the top Ninja screwing up my plans every single time because my -ATK Camilla can't one-round him (and will never be able to even if I boost her to level 40 iirc). If she attacks him, he uses Escape Route to teleport and kill someone; if she doesn't attack him or there's nobody in range to kill, he'll still kill someone on Turn 3.

Here's a visual of how things look at the beginning of Turn 3 player phase:

Spoiler

I was too lazy to label everything, so quick legend:
blue = Reinhardt, pink = Olivia, red = Tharja (2 health), green = Camilla (17 health), grey = Ninjas, orange = sword Cav

Tharja doesn't actually need to be danced (she one-rounds the Axe Armour on Turn 2), so Reinhardt and Olivia's positions are more flexible

Is the strategy insalvageable and should I rush to train someone new, or can anyone offer some insight?