Skill Inheritance Discussion.

[Tragonight]

What are some good B and C skills for Tharja? I'm conflicted. Darting Blow and Vengeance are definitely keepers, but I'm not sure about Spur Res.

[BANRYU]

2 minutes ago, Tragonight said:

What are some good B and C skills for Tharja? I'm conflicted. Darting Blow and Vengeance are definitely keepers, but I'm not sure about Spur Res.

For B, my suggestions would be Vantage or a breaker for someone you need her to be able to kill; Bow might be good, for instance. For C, I'd say any Hone Atk/Speed you have access to, or if you can get it, Threaten Res or Speed would be really good IMO. 

[Sunwoo]

6 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

I'd probably go with Alfonse. He already has quite a bit of attack, and his main issue's always been his lack of speed. Axebreaker fixes that somewhat, letting him double and ORKO any axe user (haven't done calcs to see if he can ORKO Hector though), and I think he'd appreciate it more than Sanaki, who, as you say, can usually one-shot most axe users anyways. 

EDIT: Also I just thought of something. Alfonse's main issue is that he has low speed and can't double, but he actually has a solid attack stat and innate Death Blow, yes? How good do you think Alfonse would be with Brave Sword+ as a player phase nuke? Yes, you'd be giving up his Prf weapon, but I still think it could be worth it for how much it adds to his offensive potential on player phase. 

Well, I put the axebreaker on Alfonse and it was worth it. The tenth stratum gave me three axes to immediately test it out on, and he does his job very well on the EP by taking them out.

If you can get brave sword+ on him, I imagine he'd be pretty good yeah.

[Birdy]

2 hours ago, Elieson said:

That's arguably the best Anti-Takumi & Anti-Kagero, really. IMO you should DeathBlow or Fury her, since the damage is amplified nicely.

Just putting what I wrote in the other thread here aswell, since this seems to be the better topic for it and I often see Fury discussed/recommended. (Just taking your comment as an example Elie, no bad intentions ^^ )
 

One thing you need to know about Fury, and this is quite important for everyone thinking about putting this skill on one or multiple of their units, is this:

 

While it can lead you to higher ratings in the Arena, it makes fights so, so much harder. Why you ask? Because those stats increases your base stats, which can increases the amount of points you can get in Arena. However, it also makes you go up against higher enemies. I put Fury 3 on my 40+1 Minerva, 40+1 Lucina and 40 Linde, while already using Eldigan with Fury for the bonus. What happened was, it made me go up against whales. I went from fighting other Lvl40's to fighting Lvl.40+10's because of the increased stats from Fury. However, this made the skill useless, or even worse, a big liability since the stat boost was negated by the enemies increased stats from merging, not to mention that the enemy units actually had a usefull A skill and DON'T get 6 damage after every fight. They also have more skills since they have the bonus SP from being merged a lot of times. Ofcourse, this might be circumvented by having Lvl.40+10's yourself...

 

While I like the challenge (deathless arena runs actually become somewhat boring and expected), it can be quite frustrating, and sometimes even impossible. Just be aware of that. 

[eclipse]

28 minutes ago, InigoPadalin said:

Yo, what about Sophia with Obstruct? I basically was thinking about those chokepoint maps and she can get close counter when I get a pinapple.

If I see a Sophia, my first instinct is to bash her face in, not run past her.  She has a case for Vantage, since she's weirdly bulky.

[InigoPadalin]

Just now, eclipse said:

If I see a Sophia, my first instinct is to bash her face in, not run past her.  She has a case for Vantage, since she's weirdly bulky.

I want to put Swordbreaker on her specifically because of the AI's tendency to attack no matter what. I'm not sure about her with Vantage though, because she is REALLY slow. "Get hit 4 times" slow. 

[eclipse]

2 minutes ago, InigoPadalin said:

I want to put Swordbreaker on her specifically because of the AI's tendency to attack no matter what. I'm not sure about her with Vantage though, because she is REALLY slow. "Get hit 4 times" slow. 

She tanks one hit, then punishes whoever wants to follow-up.  While someone like Ephraim will ruin her day, I think she's capable of surviving doubles off of units who don't slam Atk (at 5*, it takes 48 neutral MT to ORKO her, and reconsider your life choices if you're a green unit).

Edited March 18, 2017 by eclipse

[Ice Dragon]

22 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

I'd probably go with Alfonse. He already has quite a bit of attack, and his main issue's always been his lack of speed. Axebreaker fixes that somewhat, letting him double and ORKO any axe user (haven't done calcs to see if he can ORKO Hector though), and I think he'd appreciate it more than Sanaki, who, as you say, can usually one-shot most axe users anyways. 

Alphonse with Folkvangr and Death Blow has 68 eff. Atk with weapon triangle modifiers. Neutral Hector has 52 HP and 37 Def, so you're dealing 31 x 2 = 62 damage with Swordbreaker for a one-round kill. +Def Hector has 52 HP and 40 Def, so you're dealing 28 x 2 = 56 damage with Swordbreaker for a one-round kill.

Neutral Hector has 42 eff. Atk with weapon triangle modifiers. Alphonse has 43 HP and 32 Def, so Hector deals 10 damage on the counterattack.

[MrSmokestack]

1 hour ago, Birdy said:

 

One thing you need to know about Fury, and this is quite important for everyone thinking about putting this skill on one or multiple of their units, is this:

 

While it can lead you to higher ratings in the Arena, it makes fights so, so much harder. Why you ask? Because those stats increases your base stats, which can increases the amount of points you can get in Arena. However, it also makes you go up against higher enemies. I put Fury 3 on my 40+1 Minerva, 40+1 Lucina and 40 Linde, while already using Eldigan with Fury for the bonus. What happened was, it made me go up against whales. I went from fighting other Lvl40's to fighting Lvl.40+10's because of the increased stats from Fury. However, this made the skill useless, or even worse, a big liability since the stat boost was negated by the enemies increased stats from merging, not to mention that the enemy units actually had a usefull A skill and DON'T get 6 damage after every fight. They also have more skills since they have the bonus SP from being merged a lot of times. Ofcourse, this might be circumvented by having Lvl.40+10's yourself...

 

While I like the challenge (deathless arena runs actually become somewhat boring and expected), it can be quite frustrating, and sometimes even impossible. Just be aware of that. 

I beg to differ, though that 48-stat margin is pretty significant.

 

What types of units do you encounter past the 4500 mark? Depending on how your team is built, ranged units are supposed to be less common while armors like Hector can be found in almost every game.

 

Even so, I'm not fully convinced about Fury being a detriment to arena runs. Nearly all of the A Skills apply only during the turn player's phase, leaving Distant / Close Counter as being the main obstacle on your own turn, which are not found on many units besides Takumi and Hector anyway. In addition, +10 units only (I say "only") have +4 to all stats, which in all honesty doesn't affect too many outcomes versus units that otherwise counter them. 

But that's just me. I'll defer to the player with more experience.

 

EDIT: Bolded. I suck at math.

Edited March 18, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[MaskedAmpharos]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Alphonse with Folkvangr and Death Blow has 68 eff. Atk with weapon triangle modifiers. Neutral Hector has 52 HP and 37 Def, so you're dealing 31 x 2 = 62 damage with Swordbreaker for a one-round kill. +Def Hector has 52 HP and 40 Def, so you're dealing 28 x 2 = 56 damage with Swordbreaker for a one-round kill.

Neutral Hector has 42 eff. Atk with weapon triangle modifiers. Alphonse has 43 HP and 32 Def, so Hector deals 10 damage on the counterattack.

Oh wow, so Alfonse ORKOs all Hectors; that's definitely good information to know. Thanks as always for the calcs, Ice!

Also I think you mean Axebreaker not Swordbreaker

Actually that reminds me: how exactly does Axebreaker interact with Armad's passive, if at all? Would it stop Hector from attacking twice on the counterattack? 

[Fly_or_Die]

3 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

What types of units do you encounter past the 4500 mark? Depending on how your team is built, ranged units are supposed to be less common while armors like Hector can be found in almost every game.

The BST matching actually tends to screw you on this regard. You're either going to be matched with no mages ... or you're going to find +10 Linde (because only +5 and above mages have the BST to be matched with you).

[MrSmokestack]

1 minute ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

Oh wow, so Alfonse ORKOs all Hectors; that's definitely good information to know. Thanks as always for the calcs, Ice!

Also I think you mean Axebreaker not Swordbreaker

Actually that reminds me: how exactly does Axebreaker interact with Armad's passive, if at all? Would it stop Hector from attacking twice on the counterattack? 

I'm pretty sure the -breaker would take precedence, as Hector with Wary Fighter cannot make a follow-up attack either.

[MaskedAmpharos]

5 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

I beg to differ, though that 36-stat margin is pretty significant.

 

What types of units do you encounter past the 4500 mark? Depending on how your team is built, ranged units are supposed to be less common while armors like Hector can be found in almost every game.

 

Even so, I'm not fully convinced about Fury being a detriment to arena runs. Nearly all of the A Skills apply only during the turn player's phase, leaving Distant / Close Counter as being the main obstacle on your own turn, which are not found on many units besides Takumi and Hector anyway. In addition, +10 units only (I say "only") have +4 to all stats, which in all honesty doesn't affect too many outcomes versus units that otherwise counter them. 

But that's just me. I'll defer to the player with more experience.

 

1 minute ago, Fly_or_Die said:

The BST matching actually tends to screw you on this regard. You're either going to be matched with no mages ... or you're going to find +10 Linde (because only +5 and above mages have the BST to be matched with you).

Basically this. At over 4.5k you see a Hector (and often an Effie too) in literally every match whereas you run into almost zero Takumis (barring merged units). But when you DO run into mages they're usually something like +10 Nino or +10 Julia, so that's fun. Luckily the extra stats aren't usually enough to keep me from killing them on player phase with a melee unit, but they're absolutely terrifying on enemy phase. 

[Quintessence]

I'm interested in the Alfonsw discussion. I'm wondering if giving Alfonse Brash Assault 3 or Swordbreaker 3. I'm interested in Swordbreaker as he'll check safely both axe users and would one round most sword units with above 50% hp, plus most sword units are speedy. Thoughts?

[SageOfAnys]

Hey everyone, what would be a good A skill for Julia? I want to keep Breath of Life (it's situational but it's saved me far too many times to count) and I'm going to give her Wings of Mercy from Palla, but Res +3 isn't the best for obvious reasons.

[MrSmokestack]

32 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

 

Basically this. At over 4.5k you see a Hector (and often an Effie too) in literally every match whereas you run into almost zero Takumis (barring merged units). But when you DO run into mages they're usually something like +10 Nino or +10 Julia, so that's fun. Luckily the extra stats aren't usually enough to keep me from killing them on player phase with a melee unit, but they're absolutely terrifying on enemy phase. 

This is my main point. The enemy team isn't actually a threat until it's their turn. And since each arena game always begins on your own turn, I find it hard to believe that there is a team composition that forces you to lose a unit no matter what actions you take, since the turn order is heavily slanted in your favor.

 

Fury gives +3. Merging can give up to +4, which comes out to the enemy team at worst having 24 more stats than yours. Can matches still be difficult? Yes. Are they bad enough that using Fury is a bad idea? Not necessarily.

 

EDIT: Also bolded. This isn't a very good sign.

Edited March 18, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[Birdy]

2 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

I beg to differ, though that 36-stat margin is pretty significant.

 

What types of units do you encounter past the 4500 mark? Depending on how your team is built, ranged units are supposed to be less common while armors like Hector can be found in almost every game.

 

Even so, I'm not fully convinced about Fury being a detriment to arena runs. Nearly all of the A Skills apply only during the turn player's phase, leaving Distant / Close Counter as being the main obstacle on your own turn, which are not found on many units besides Takumi and Hector anyway. In addition, +10 units only (I say "only") have +4 to all stats, which in all honesty doesn't affect too many outcomes versus units that otherwise counter them. 

But that's just me. I'll defer to the player with more experience.

This was from my first battle and it's been all kinds of things like this. Basically, LV.40+10's with all skills filled in and maxed. Since then I've played around 40-50 matches or so and I'd say the most I've fought were Nino + Eirika + Azura + Hector (with Pivot to keep up)/Linde/Takumi (with Vantage ofcourse).

It's not only that they actually have an A skill, it's also that you get 6 damage to you after every battle and that they have all skill options filled and maxed.

+4 to all stats is huge. It keeps you or the enemy from doubling or getting doubled. It takes 4 less damage while dealing 4 more, even more with effective bonusses, and you might even get an extra attack from the increased speed. Please don't look down on it or you'll regret it xD.
 

[MrSmokestack]

1 minute ago, Birdy said:

This was from my first battle and it's been all kinds of things like this. Basically, LV.40+10's with all skills filled in and maxed. Since then I've played around 40-50 matches or so and I'd say the most I've fought were Nino + Eirika + Azura + Hector (with Pivot to keep up)/Linde/Takumi (with Vantage ofcourse).

It's not only that they actually have an A skill, it's also that you get 6 damage to you after every battle and that they have all skill options filled and maxed.

+4 to all stats is huge. It keeps you or the enemy from doubling or getting doubled. It takes 4 less damage while dealing 4 more, even more with effective bonusses, and you might even get an extra attack from the increased speed. Please don't look down on it or you'll regret it xD.
 

I'm terribly sorry, but I kept looking at the Robin, wondering if it's -Atk.

 

But my goodness, it seems my arguement does give merging too little credence after all.

[Ice Dragon]

17 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

Oh wow, so Alfonse ORKOs all Hectors; that's definitely good information to know. Thanks as always for the calcs, Ice!

Also I think you mean Axebreaker not Swordbreaker

Actually that reminds me: how exactly does Axebreaker interact with Armad's passive, if at all? Would it stop Hector from attacking twice on the counterattack? 

I'm too used to typing Swordbreaker due to doing calcs on blue dragons attacking Falchion-users.

 

15 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

I'm pretty sure the -breaker would take precedence, as Hector with Wary Fighter cannot make a follow-up attack either.

I've heard second-hand that Weaponbreaker skills negate Quick Riposte.

I know first-hand that Quick Riposte does activate against Wary Fighter, but possibly only when the first attack reduces the Wary Fighter unit's HP below the activation threshold.

 

8 minutes ago, Birdy said:

This was from my first battle and it's been all kinds of things like this. Basically, LV.40+10's with all skills filled in and maxed. Since then I've played around 40-50 matches or so and I'd say the most I've fought were Nino + Eirika + Azura + Hector (with Pivot to keep up)/Linde/Takumi (with Vantage ofcourse).

It's not only that they actually have an A skill, it's also that you get 6 damage to you after every battle and that they have all skill options filled and maxed.

+4 to all stats is huge. It keeps you or the enemy from doubling or getting doubled. It takes 4 less damage while dealing 4 more, even more with effective bonusses, and you might even get an extra attack from the increased speed. Please don't look down on it or you'll regret it xD.

[+HP, -Atk]. Eww. You'd think with a +10, they might have a better stat roll.

 

2 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

I'm terribly sorry, but I kept looking at the Robin, wondering if it's -Atk.

Yes, yes it is.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[MrSmokestack]

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I've heard second-hand that Weaponbreaker skills negate Quick Riposte.

I know first-hand that Quick Riposte does activate against Wary Fighter, but possibly only when the first attack reduces the Wary Fighter unit's HP below the activation threshold.

If the second part is true, then there must be a different reason then. Maybe Quick Riposte has a higher skill priority? Because I'm fairly certain that skills dependent on HP% check before combat, not during.

[DLNarshen]

Maybe but this is an obvious question but I'm paranoid and feather deficient.  Promoting a unit's rarity doesn't remove their inherited skills, right?  I want to start teaching things to some of my 4* units to give them more of an edge in the arena and would rather not have to wait until they're 5*s in order to do so. 

[MrSmokestack]

Just now, DLNarshen said:

Maybe but this is an obvious question but I'm paranoid and feather deficient.  Promoting a unit's rarity doesn't remove their inherited skills, right?  I want to start teaching things to some of my 4* units to give them more of an edge in the arena and would rather not have to wait until they're 5*s in order to do so. 

It does not.

[DLNarshen]

Just now, MrSmokestack said:

It does not.

Cool, thanks!

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, MrSmokestack said:

If the second part is true, then there must be a different reason then. Maybe Quick Riposte has a higher skill priority? Because I'm fairly certain that skills dependent on HP% check before combat, not during.

Yeah. Either Quick Riposte has higher priority or Wary Fighter is capable of deactivating halfway through a round. All I know is what I saw, and that was my Hector double-attacked Effie on the counterattack for a one-round kill.

Someone should probably try sending Subaki to his doom against Effie to see (at least Subaki is tanky)... Or anyone else with inherited Quick Riposte. I haven't gotten around to figuring out what to do with my full barracks yet.

[Korath88]

12 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Yeah. Either Quick Riposte has higher priority or Wary Fighter is capable of deactivating halfway through a round. All I know is what I saw, and that was my Hector double-attacked Effie on the counterattack for a one-round kill.

Someone should probably try sending Subaki to his doom against Effie to see (at least Subaki is tanky)... Or anyone else with inherited Quick Riposte. I haven't gotten around to figuring out what to do with my full barracks yet.

Someone on Reddit mentioned that breaker skills and wary fighter negate each other, which could be the case for quick riposte as well. It could just be that Hector had 5 speed more than Effie, and simply doubled her naturally due to the skills negating each other.