Skill Inheritance Discussion.

[BANRYU]

(sorry for late responses ;; )

@ILikeKirbys Yeah I agree Dx the anti-armor weapons have the misfortune of being pretty useless now that Skill Inheritance is a thing. I can see them MAYBE being useful eventually if full-armor arena teams become prevalent at all, but given how costly it is to do so, I don't expect it to become remotely common (same with Wolf tomes though to a lesser extent, since full cav seems not only easier to make but quite deadly as well). As far as Res-happy armors go, there IS Sheena, who tanks magic hits for days, though she's pretty good on both defenses as I recall. 

@Kaden I have a hard time imagining how Knock Back could be useful myself, but that doesn't mean it's out of the question... I can see it being used to restrict movement of enemy teams by filling in a spot that another unit would want to occupy on approach or something. Gluing Leo with Brynhildr to a melee Knock Back unit is another interesting idea. So yeah man go for it! xD The internet needs people like us to look into the lesser-used stuff; in my experience, more often than not the case with that stuff is that its niche is overlooked or unknown, as it seems not worth using in favor of stuff that IS known to be good, though really its true potential simply has yet to be breached... (mostly unrelated, but I remember trying to convince people that Aggron was better than most people thought in the Gen 4 competitive Pokemon scene and him suddenly getting popular when he got Head Smash, and only then did people start to recognize his other benefits on a wider scale lol...)

@PowerVZ That's a cool team, it's neat that you're making use of Draug haha. One thing you could do is give Hone Speed or Threaten Def to Draug; I know savage blow is cool and all but if you think the speed would help, I think he's the best candidate to give it since, as you said, Fortify Res helps the other teammates a lot, and Draug being a frontliner means he'll have the best opportunities to have his Threaten be useful (Threaten skills aren't as useful on ranged units unless they can tank a hit or two IMHO). Also don't despair over your Nowi's IVs; as of the april update you can transfer them over to another Nowi via merging if you get a better one! (...I think?? correct me if I'm wrong on that, someone)

 

[PowerVZ]

3 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

@PowerVZ That's a cool team, it's neat that you're making use of Draug haha. One thing you could do is give Hone Speed or Threaten Def to Draug; I know savage blow is cool and all but if you think the speed would help, I think he's the best candidate to give it since, as you said, Fortify Res helps the other teammates a lot, and Draug being a frontliner means he'll have the best opportunities to have his Threaten be useful (Threaten skills aren't as useful on ranged units unless they can tank a hit or two IMHO). Also don't despair over your Nowi's IVs; as of the april update you can transfer them over to another Nowi via merging if you get a better one! (...I think?? correct me if I'm wrong on that, someone)

 

So we're now getting on the serious part : building my Draug haha.

Giving him Threaten Defense 3 over Savage Blow 3 seems like a good idea, especially because my team is all about tanking and OHKOing foes. (Kagero/Lilina duo in the near future). But right now i'll wait to pull a 4* Peri since I don't want to get rid of my 5* Raven to get the skill. (He's my Brave Axe+ skill fodder)

Also would you advise me to replace Renewal 3 by Quick Riposte ? Because if Kagero is getting Ardent Sacrifice, and Lilina is getting Breath of Life 3 then I'll have a pseudo healers that can keep my tanks alive.. !

[BANRYU]

Yeah, that sounds pretty good about QuickRip > Renewal. QR is definitely one of the best skills in the game, no doubt. 

Threaten Atk is also a great skill for tanks and works on both physical and magic units ~3o In case you don't get that Def-threatener soon enough. 

[PowerVZ]

Unfortunately I don't have any Threaten Atk 3 users neither. I guess i'll stick with what I have for now :p

[ILikeKirbys]

I second that give-Draug-QR, it'll be great on him if you can keep his HP up, which it sounds like you can.

And now, somewhat of a spoilery thing that spoils something on the next banner and thus will be discussed in a spoiler tag:

Spoiler

We're getting a new bow with the next banner: The Firesweep Bow, which prevents all counterattacks, both by the user and by enemies targeted by the user. This interests me, since I don't think we have a weapon that can just ignore the possibility of taking damage during Player Phase, and I wonder if there are any archers who would desire such a weapon.

I'm thinking a faster Archer (on my phone at the moment, so I can't look up who that would be for myself) might want to run the Firesweep as a Player Phase pseudo-Brave Bow (trading lower SPD for the inability to counter, which really only hurts against mages and other archers, so I don't think it's too bad unless you give a Firesweeper Quick Riposte and Close Counter for some reason), but I'm not sure what skills to run with this. I'm thinking Death Blow or Swift Sparrow could be good for the A Slot, and C Slot is flexible as always (but could run Threaten SPD to double foes, or Threaten DEF if the Firesweep ends up being a low-Might weapon), but I'm not sure on the B Slot. You can't really use Quick Riposte or Vantage on a weapon that doesn't let you counterattack, and I don't see any reason to run Desperation either. Brash Assault might not work either, if the counterattack-prevention prevents Brash Assault from working when attacking archers/daggers/staves/mages/Distant Counter-ers. Maybe a Breaker skill would be best here?

I'm at a loss here, so any input would be appreciated... As would keeping your input in spoilers so we don't spoil anything for people who don't want to know about the next banner.

 

[Kaden]

@ILikeKirbys and @PowerVZ, there was a recent thread on Draug: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/70503-draug-the-gentle-giant/. The OP doesn't mention Quick Riposte, but a following post does.

Also, to ILikeKirbys, that assumes the new bow is inheritable like the Wo Dao and not like Jaffar's random personal Deathly Dagger.

[ILikeKirbys]

@Kaden I dunno if the new no-counter bow will be inheritable, but until I get my hands on a Faye (with any luck, that'll be Friday), I'm gonna assume it can be passed to other archers, and thus I'm gonna look now for archers who might benefit from never eating counterattacks.

I'm thinking maybe Rebecca (she has a lot of SPD, yeah? So she could double without eating a counter between hits, while using a B Skill that isn't Desperation) or Niles (whose high RES could let him tank hits on Enemy Phase so he can safely hit mages who Attack him with whatever Threaten he has equipped (I recommend DEF, but SPD works too) before he attacks them with no fear of being countered), but maybe someone else could work too?

[MrSmokestack]

7 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

@Kaden I dunno if the new no-counter bow will be inheritable, but until I get my hands on a Faye (with any luck, that'll be Friday), I'm gonna assume it can be passed to other archers, and thus I'm gonna look now for archers who might benefit from never eating counterattacks.

I'm thinking maybe Rebecca (she has a lot of SPD, yeah? So she could double without eating a counter between hits, while using a B Skill that isn't Desperation) or Niles (whose high RES could let him tank hits on Enemy Phase so he can safely hit mages who Attack him with whatever Threaten he has equipped (I recommend DEF, but SPD works too) before he attacks them with no fear of being countered), but maybe someone else could work too?

It can be inherited, since datamines reveal that it has a + version, like Wo Dao+

Let the theorycraft commence.

Brash Assault only procs when your unit is attacking, by the way.

[Kaden]

@MrSmokestack, oh, cool then. 

Hmm, I wonder if Setsuna would like it? It would basically be her default bow, but extended to all units who can counter back. She's also naturally fast... I think I just have a Setsuna bias. :P

If only she would show up in a summon.

[ILikeKirbys]

7 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

It can be inherited, since datamines reveal that it has a + version, like Wo Dao+

Let the theorycraft commence.

Brash Assault only procs when your unit is attacking, by the way.

Ah, that's neat. So I wasn't theorycrafting for nothing. Let's get down to business then!

Doesn't Brash Assault require that your foe be able to counterattack you? Because if it does, I'm not sure the no-counter bow will be able to be used with it, since it prevents counterattacking.

Also, I wonder if this weapon might work better than a Brave Bow for faster archers? Since it would let them double without fear of reprisal while leaving their higher SPD untouched. Not being able to counter on Enemy Phase might hurt, but I'm sure that could be worked around.

@Kaden It actually just prevents all counterattacks, it doesn't guarantee that you double when attacking.

Though Setsuna's pretty fast, so she might appreciate a bow that prevents counterattacks so she won't have to take hits (it's been a while since I used Setsuna, but her defenses aren't that good, right? So not eating counterattacks might help her longevity).

Edited April 12, 2017 by ILikeKirbys

[Kaden]

@ILikeKirbys, that's what I meant. She would be able to freely damage units who cannot counterattack because of the bow. Her natural speed just lets her double.

[MrSmokestack]

9 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Ah, that's neat. So I wasn't theorycrafting for nothing. Let's get down to business then!

Doesn't Brash Assault require that your foe be able to counterattack you? Because if it does, I'm not sure the no-counter bow will be able to be used with it, since it prevents counterattacking.

Also, I wonder if this weapon might work better than a Brave Bow for faster archers? Since it would let them double without fear of reprisal while leaving their higher SPD untouched. Not being able to counter on Enemy Phase might hurt, but I'm sure that could be worked around.

We don't know the Mt values for the Firesweep Bow / + yet, though my guess is 8 / 11 Mt due to how Wo Dao / + was treated. Also, the question of whether or not Brash Assault could work with Firesweep depends on how you interpret the wording; the way I see it, a foe that can counter isn't quite the same as a foe that is able to counter, if you get what I'm saying. I think the wording for Brash Assault suggests that it only works against units with the same attacking range as the unit attacking them, which would make a counter possible.

 

Given how Wary Fighter was found to interact with Weaponbreakers and Quick Riposte, I would try testing Firesweeper's relevant interactions out when it gets released, though,

Edited April 12, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[Zero1k]

Would Ardent Sacrifice be a good assist for a neutral HP Vantage Takumi? Since his HP caps at 40, one Ardent Sacrifice would be enough to get into Vantage range. If not, which other assists would be useful? My current skill fodder has Pivot, Draw Back, Smite, Swap, Reposition and All rallies except resistance.

[BANRYU]

@Zero1000 Ardent Sacrifice would work for that Takumi, otherwise I think it really just depends on your tastes-- the differences between skills like Pivot, Swap, and Reposition are all really kinda minute and particular and I don't know if many people have quite figured out what the ideal differentiation is yet. Draw Back is another decent one, since you can pull allies out of the line of fire after they snipe something, but I think it depends on your team. 

 

Righto, here's my best stab at an analysis for @eclipse's boy Raigh. Don't/didn't have as much time as I'd have liked to do a more in-depth writeup so hope y'all can forgive bullets and stuff. 

Spoiler

Raigh - 41 HP / 32 Atk / 29 Spd / 22 Def / 29 Res

Goods: 

• same Atk as Tharja
• pretty good Res and a decent Speed tier
• received when starting the game, so guaranteed to obtain
• has a decent kit to begin with in terms of passives and assist

Notso-goods:

• bad default weapon (unless Horse Emblem becomes substantially more popular) and thus has to inherit better ones
• has trouble standing out compared to the other red mages who either have more Res or more Spd

Suggested Build:

• Atk+, HP-
• Raudrblade+
• Rally Atk / Reciprocal Aid / whatever
• Draconic Aura / Luna
• Darting Blow 3 (Atk+) / Swift Sparrow 2 (neutral)
• Swordbreaker 3
• Threaten Res 3

Out of all the sets and variations I ran calcs on, this one got the best results. Atk boon and Darting Blow are slightly better than neutral and Swift Sparrow but the differences are relatively minor. 

With Darting Blow, a neutral (AKA the one you get at the start) Raigh can safely initiate the attack on any vanilla chars in the game without being killed by anyone except Kagero and +Spd Jaffar & Linde, while the listed nature of Raigh lands significantly more kills but is vulnerable to being killed by +Spd Setsuna. Toss Eirika's boosts on top of this, and he only loses to Kagero, though having a +4 boost to Atk or a rally in Def or Res lets him OHKO her, and mostly only misses out on ~40% of blues + the Res-happy greys. 

Procs are chosen for power since Raudrblade slows the special counter, and can be used after 2 rounds of doubling something that can't counterattack to nuke anything that might be left (though he'll probably need healing to last long enough to use it unless he's nuking 1-range reds/greens). 

TBQH Tharja still mostly does this better (I tried, but was unable to find a set where he can perform better than Tharja OTL), with the only real differences being Raigh's ability to avoid being killed by Leo and Odin when initiating. All things said he's not that bad, just has a bit of trouble standing out... 

Edited April 12, 2017 by BANRYU

[Ice Dragon]

8 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

We don't know the Mt values for the Firesweep Bow / + yet, though my guess is 8 / 11 Mt due to how Wo Dao / + was treated. Also, the question of whether or not Brash Assault could work with Firesweep depends on how you interpret the wording; the way I see it, a foe that can counter isn't quite the same as a foe that is able to counter, if you get what I'm saying. I think the wording for Brash Assault suggests that it only works against units with the same attacking range as the unit attacking them, which would make a counter possible.

Given how Wary Fighter was found to interact with Weaponbreakers and Quick Riposte, I would try testing Firesweeper's relevant interactions out when it gets released, though,

My assumption based on what we know about existing skills is that the Firesweep Bow and Windsweep skill will completely negate all counterattacks regardless of skills.

Here's my reasoning:

Quick Riposte grants you an automatic follow-up attack, but only when you can counterattack in the first place. For example, vanilla Subaki cannot activate Quick Riposte against a ranged attacker because he cannot counterattack at all.

I think Firesweep Bow and Windsweep will work similarly. The opponent cannot counterattack in the first place so any modifiers that affect the number of times they can attack don't matter.

Based on existing skill interactions, I expect Brash Assault to be unable to activate when attacking with Firesweep Bow or Windsweep (assuming conditions are met for Windsweep to activate).

The only interaction that is 50/50 is their interaction with Close Counter and Distant Counter. Based on the wording of "enable counterattack" versus the stronger "cannot use counterattacks", I'm predicting that the Sweep skills will override the Counter skills.

[ILikeKirbys]

22 minutes ago, Kaden said:

@ILikeKirbys, that's what I meant. She would be able to freely damage units who cannot counterattack because of the bow. Her natural speed just lets her double.

Ah, but that's not how her Assassin's Bow works. That thing just has built-in Daggerbreaker. This is a completely different (and possibly better) effect, so I kinda got confused. Sorry.

@MrSmokestack Huh, that would actually make Firesweep + Brash Assault a pretty great combo on slower archers, since they could double enemies without having to eat a counter in between. That's actually pretty cool, nice catch mate. Unless @Ice Dragon is right here, like I had initially assumed. Then we're back to speedy archers being the primary recipients of the new bow, I think.

@Zero1000 That could work, actually. You'd have to wait for someone to get hurt, but once that happens, Takumi'll become quite a bit more intimidating thanks to Vantage.

Edited April 12, 2017 by ILikeKirbys

[MrSmokestack]

6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

My assumption based on what we know about existing skills is that the Firesweep Bow and Windsweep skill will completely negate all counterattacks regardless of skills.

Here's my reasoning:

Quick Riposte grants you an automatic follow-up attack, but only when you can counterattack in the first place. For example, vanilla Subaki cannot activate Quick Riposte against a ranged attacker because he cannot counterattack at all.

I think Firesweep Bow and Windsweep will work similarly. The opponent cannot counterattack in the first place so any modifiers that affect the number of times they can attack don't matter.

Based on existing skill interactions, I expect Brash Assault to be unable to activate when attacking with Firesweep Bow or Windsweep (assuming conditions are met for Windsweep to activate).

The only interaction that is 50/50 is their interaction with Close Counter and Distant Counter. Based on the wording of "enable counterattack" versus the stronger "cannot use counterattacks", I'm predicting that the Sweep skills will override the Counter skills.

So skills with a negative effect (can't, cannot, etc) override those with a positive effect (allows, enables, etc). That does make more sense.

If that's the case, then it would definitely prevent counterattacks from the 1-2 range counter skills, which would be huge, considering teams don't have to worry as much about being forced into a trade with Hector or Nowi. No way of telling for sure until Friday comes around, ultimately.

Edited April 12, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[Kaden]

@ILikeKirbys, now I'm confused.

I was talking about Setsuna with the new bow and how it prevents counters which is similar to her default bow which prevents follow-ups from dagger users, but this is arguably better which makes me wonder what the catch is. I'm betting the HP threshold is much higher than her Assassin's Bow, any -breaker skills, etc. Probably around Quick Riposte's.

[GaleforceAbuse]

1 minute ago, Kaden said:

@ILikeKirbys, now I'm confused.

I was talking about Setsuna with the new bow and how it prevents counters which is similar to her default bow which prevents follow-ups from dagger users, but this is arguably better which makes me wonder what the catch is. I'm betting the HP threshold is much higher than her Assassin's Bow, any -breaker skills, etc. Probably around Quick Riposte's.

The catch is that you can't counterattack. The datamine didn't reveal an HP threshold.

[MrSmokestack]

2 minutes ago, Kaden said:

@ILikeKirbys, now I'm confused.

I was talking about Setsuna with the new bow and how it prevents counters which is similar to her default bow which prevents follow-ups from dagger users, but this is arguably better which makes me wonder what the catch is. I'm betting the HP threshold is much higher than her Assassin's Bow, any -breaker skills, etc. Probably around Quick Riposte's.

Assassin's Bow has no HP threshold for its innate ability. It also guarantees a follow-up attack against said dagger users while Firesweep is dependent on the unit's speed. Though in Setsuna's case, she's likely doubling them anyway.

 

EDIT: @ILikeKirbys that too.

Edited April 12, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[ILikeKirbys]

3 minutes ago, Kaden said:

@ILikeKirbys, now I'm confused.

I was talking about Setsuna with the new bow and how it prevents counters which is similar to her default bow which prevents follow-ups from dagger users, but this is arguably better which makes me wonder what the catch is. I'm betting the HP threshold is much higher than her Assassin's Bow, any -breaker skills, etc. Probably around Quick Riposte's.

An, crap. I meant that the new bow prevents all counterattacks regardless of weapon type and doesn't guarantee a double, while the Assassin's Bow only prevents follow-up attacks from and guarantees doubling against a specific weapon type. Neither of them appears to have an HP threshold (and given that the Assassin's Bow is basically Daggerbreaker without an HP threshold, I see no reason to assume Firesweep will have one). I think we're on the same page here, yeah?

You're definitely on the right track giving this to Setsuna tho, since her high SPD does let her double with the Firesweep (add Darting Blow or Swift Sparrow for better results), and doing so with no fear of eating a counterattack would be quite a boon for her. Not sure what other skills she would want with that tho.

Also, since we're getting a free Niles, could he benefit from Firesweep?

[Kaden]

15 minutes ago, GaleforceAbuse said:

The catch is that you can't counterattack. The datamine didn't reveal an HP threshold.

Oh, yeah, forgot about that. Well, that answers it.

15 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Assassin's Bow has no HP threshold for its innate ability. It also guarantees a follow-up attack against said dagger users while Firesweep is dependent on the unit's speed. Though in Setsuna's case, she's likely doubling them anyway.

Really? Man, this is what happens when you don't summon any archers until the last, 21st summon where you get Niles who just became a free unit with the new quests. Dammit, game! I just want Setsuna. Everyone's like Quadsuna and stuff and I'm just like I want another archer, particularly the goofball one.

Edit: @ILikeKirbys, Death Blow, Seal Attack or Speed, and Threaten Attack or Speed also come to mind. Death Blow for more power as Firesweep is an initiate-only weapon, Seal Attack or Threaten Attack to lower the damage if she's forced into a situation where she has to take a hit, similar case with Seal or Threaten Speed, but that can also make it so she can double if for some reason she can't. Seal Defense and Threaten Defense could work too.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Kaden

[ILikeKirbys]

8 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Edit: @ILikeKirbys, Death Blow, Seal Attack or Speed, and Threaten Attack or Speed also come to mind. Death Blow for more power as Firesweep is an initiate-only weapon, Seal Attack or Threaten Attack to lower the damage if she's forced into a situation where she has to take a hit, similar case with Seal or Threaten Speed, but that can also make it so she can double if for some reason she can't. Seal Defense and Threaten Defense could work too.

Hm. I could see Seal ATK and Threaten DEF working pretty well here. Seal ATK would probably let Setsuna survive on Enemy Phase if she can't score a kill, while Threaten DEF lets Setsuna get kills on enemies who attack her when it's her turn again. I could see Threaten SPD working instead of DEF tho, to get doubles on faster flrs, but I think DEF will be more useful in general.

And I hadn't considered Death Blow. If Setsuna is fast enough to double frequently with just her normal SPD, then that's a good idea too.

[BANRYU]

I picked a terrible time to finally decide to finish / post my Raigh analysis lmao. 

I don't have a whole lot to say about the new stuff except that I'm interested in the possibilities, though personally I'm not big on conjecture until I have all the facts. Am hoping that the Sweep stuff makes Brash Assault more viable since I have a vested interest in that haha. 

[Kaden]

@ILikeKirbys, Setsuna's neutral speed is 37, 1 higher than Gaius who also boasts high speed. The second fastest archers are Niles and Rebecca with 34 neutral speed. With a +Spd boon, Setsuna would have 40 speed. Darting Blow 3 would give her 46 speed if she attacks. That's probably overkill for any unit who is not an NPC-only beefed up unit in GHBs and such. Of course, this comes with having fairly average attack and defenses.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Kaden