Skill Inheritance Discussion.

[Ice Dragon]

52 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

So skills with a negative effect (can't, cannot, etc) override those with a positive effect (allows, enables, etc). That does make more sense.

If that's the case, then it would definitely prevent counterattacks from the 1-2 range counter skills, which would be huge, considering teams don't have to worry as much about being forced into a trade with Hector or Nowi. No way of telling for sure until Friday comes around, ultimately.

Actually, it's more based on the fact that the Sweep skills negate counterattacking completely whereas the wording of the Counter skills focuses on the removal of the range restriction.

[MrSmokestack]

4 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Actually, it's more based on the fact that the Sweep skills negate counterattacking completely whereas the wording of the Counter skills focuses on the removal of the range restriction.

My reading comprehension skills could use a refresher in that case.

In all seriousness though, reading into it that way is akin to splitting hairs. Now I can't wait for the banner drop to see how these predictions turn out.

Edited April 12, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[mcsilas]

@ILikeKirbys My bad, Killer axe+ doesn't KO Lucina back with Bonfire, you actually have to use Ignis instead to defeat Neutral Lucina (even LoD variants, assuming neutral Attack). It also defeats neutral Ogma, Karel, Ryoma, Lyn, Raven, Eirika, Fir and Frederick to name a few.

Thanks for the input though! Also Galeforce sounds neat but the opportunity cost is iffy for me since I have Lyn which is my only good Sword unit and willl never part or that means I will have a Cordelia, which outdoes Hinoka anyway. I might as well use Blazing Wind if we're talking about 5 charge specials for cheapness, she'll miss out on 1 less first battle fights without Luna (Hawkeye) but it means she'll decimate somone on the next turn with Blazing Wind (92 wins with Death Blow).

Edited April 12, 2017 by mcsilas

[DehNutCase]

34 minutes ago, Kaden said:

@ILikeKirbys, Setsuna's neutral speed is 37, 1 higher than Gaius who also boasts high speed. The second fastest archers are Niles and Rebecca with 34 neutral speed. With a +Spd boon, Setsuna would have 40 speed. Darting Blow 3 would give her 46 speed if she attacks. That's probably overkill for any unit who is not an NPC-only needed up unit in GHBs and such. Of course, this comes with having fairly average attack and defenses.

It's under-kill for most units.

The problem with Setsuna is that even quad-hitting doesn't fix her 28 base atk. Takumi, Klein, and Jeorge all have better coverage than Setsuna when running the same set she does, this is because heroes fast enough to only take 2 hits from a L&D Brave-Bow die from those 2 hits if TKJ are using them:

=Setsuna gets 73 kills with Luna, L&D, Brave-Bow+.

=Klein gets 76. (Takumi gets 79, Jeorge gets 76.)

+Spd/=Atk Setsuna gets 88 kills.

+Spd/=Atk Klein gets 84. (Takumi gets 88, Jeorge gets 85.)

+Atk/=Spd Setsuna gets 87 kills.

+Atk/=Spd Klein gets 90 kills. (Takumi gets 93, Jeorge gets 90)
 

Takumi is literally better in every possible situation with the same IV.

Jeorge and Klein are nearly identical, and both prefer more Atk over more Spd.

+Spd Setsuna is better than +Spd Klein and Jeorge, but +Atk Klein and Jeorge beats both +Spd AND +Atk Setsuna.

 

Edit: And these numbers are before Fury 3 is taken into account. After Fury 3, +Atk Setsuna beats out +Spd Setsuna at 56 kills versus 52.

(+Atk TKJ get: 59 for Takumi, 58 for Klein, 53 for Jeorge. Jeorge falls off hard since he has only 32 speed rather than K&T's 33.

+Spd TKJ get: 57 for Takumi, 51 for Klein, 55 for Jeorge. Klein falls off hard since he only has 31 Atk rather than J&T's 32.

 

Interestingly, this means that, after Fury 3 is factored in, Jeorge and Setsuna end up about the same. Takumi is obviously superior, and Klein just restates how much he loves being +Atk over +Spd)

Edited April 12, 2017 by DehNutCase

[Ice Dragon]

4 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

It's under-kill for most units.

The problem with Setsuna is that even quad-hitting doesn't fix her 28 base atk. Takumi, Klein, and Jeorge all have better coverage than Setsuna when running the same set she does, this is because heroes fast enough to only take 2 hits from a L&D Brave-Bow die from those 2 hits if TKJ are using them:

=Setsuna gets 73 kills with Luna, L&D, Brave-Bow+.

=Klein gets 76. (Takumi gets 79, Jeorge gets 76.)

+Spd/=Atk Setsuna gets 88 kills.

+Spd/=Atk Klein gets 84. (Takumi gets 88, Jeorge gets 85.)

+Atk/=Spd Setsuna gets 87 kills.

+Atk/=Spd Klein gets 90 kills. (Takumi gets 93, Jeorge gets 90)
 

Takumi is literally better in every possible situation with the same IV.

Jeorge and Klein are nearly identical, and both prefer more Atk over more Spd.

+Spd Setsuna is better than +Spd Klein and Jeorge, but +Atk Klein and Jeorge beats both +Spd AND +Atk Setsuna.

As much as those numbers are nice, it would also be good to mention specific characters that individual builds succeed or fail to kill.

As much as one-round killing three quarters of the game is nice, I want to be sure i'm one-round killing the three quarters of the game that I actually care about.

[Kaden]

@DehNutCase, I kind of meant that having 46 speed with +Spd and Darting Blow 3 is overkill not that she as a +Spd Setsuna would be overkill. I'm gonna have to check later -- on a bus right now --, but I doubt 46 speed is practical. And like I said, her raw speed comes at a cost of having average-ish attack and defenses.

 

Edited April 12, 2017 by Kaden

[May]

Is there any skills other than Desperation 3 and Moonbow to make my Lucina a little bit more differentiated? She's Spring Lucina and currently sitting at 1100 SP. LOL. She's -Def and +Res. Is there any other skills I can put on her? 

[DehNutCase]

47 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

As much as those numbers are nice, it would also be good to mention specific characters that individual builds succeed or fail to kill.

As much as one-round killing three quarters of the game is nice, I want to be sure i'm one-round killing the three quarters of the game that I actually care about.

Well, I'm going to use only +Atk IV except for Jeorge, who's +Spd, neutral everything else, versus Fury 3 on everyone:

Losses:

Setsuna dies against Cecilia and Setsuna (lol Bow-Breaker, everyone else is strong enough to just 2HKO, she doesn't die to Ryoma because she's fast enough not to get doubled).

Jeorge dies to Cecilia. (He doesn't kill Ryoma, but has the speed to survive because I used +Spd nature for him, or else his match-ups get way too hard.)

Klein dies to Ryoma. (He kills Cecilia, but needs to triple-hit, taking 1 counter down to 4 HP.)

Takumi dies to Ryoma and Ceilia. (He can 2HKO Ryoma with a +4 Atk buff, no one else comes close to killing Fury 3 =Ryoma without a special---everyone kills Ryoma with a Luna or better special. He also triple-hits Cecilia to death with a 3 res buff.)

Note that Cecilia dies to everyone so long as they can survive, Setsuna needs +1 res, Jeorge needs +2, Klein doesn't need anything, and Takumi needs +3.

Hector Notes:

=Hector counter-kills Setsuna no matter what she does, but +Atk TKJ kills him after 4 hits.

Draws:

+Atk Setsuna fails to KO:

Spoiler

Anna

Bartre

S!Chrom

F!Corrin

M!Corrin

Draug

Effie

Eirika

Eldigan

Eliwood

Fir

Frederick

Gaius

Gwendolyn

Hana

Hector (Lol Fury 3 Hector)

Henry

Hinata

Jaffar

Jakob

Jeorge

Karel

Lon'qu

Lucina

Lyn

Marth

Matthew

Merric

Navarre

Ninian

Oboro

Odin

Olivia

Peri

Raven

M!Robin

Roy

Ryoma

Saizo

Selena

Sharena

Sheena

Sully

Takumi

Tharja

A!Tiki

Y!Tiki

Virion

S!Xander

 

+Spd Setsuna fails to KO:

Spoiler

Alfonse (Above all, the mission!)

Anna

Azura

Barst

Bartre

Chrom

F!Corrin

Donnel

Draug

Effie

Eirika

Eldigan

Ephraim

Fir

Frederick

Gaius

Gordin

Gunter

Gwendolyn

Hana (That feeling when even Hana doesn't die to you)

Hector

Henry

Hinata

Jaffar

Karel

Lon'qu

Lucina

S!Lucina

Lyn

Marth

Matthew

Navarre

Ninian

Nowi

Oboro

Olivia

Peri

Rebecca

M!Robin

Ryoma

Saizo

Selena

Seliph

Sheena

Stahl

Sully

Takumi

Tharja

A!Tiki

Y!Tiki

S!Xander

Looking at Setsuna's list, it's almost like: If the character is S-tier, she doesn't KO them. Haha.

Basically: 

+Atk KOs Alfonse, Azura, Barst, Chrom, Donnel, Ephraim, Gordin, Gunter, S!Lucina, Nowi, Rebecca, Seliph, and Stahl over +Spd.

+Spd Kos S!Chrom, M!Corrin, Eliwood, Jakob, Jeorge, Merric, Odin, Raven (Raven lives if he picks up a different weapon, obviously), Roy, Sharena, and Virion over +Atk.

Takumi:

+Atk Takumi fails to KO:

Spoiler

Abel

Arthur

Barst

Cain

S!Chrom

F!Corrin

M!Corrin

Draug

Effie

Eirika

Fae

Fir

Gwendolyn

Hector (Yeah, Fury 3 Hector survives the one-rounding. But then you have a Fury 3 Hector)

Henry

Jaffar

Jakob

Karel

Laslow

Lon'qu

Lucina

Lyn

Marth

Matthew

Merric

Nowi

Oboro

Odin

Ogma

Olivia

Raven

F!Robin

M!Robin

Roy

Saizo

Selena

Sharena

Stahl

Sully

Takumi

Y!Tiki

Virion

S!Xander

 

+Spd Takumi fails to KO:

Spoiler

Anna

Arthur

S!Chrom

F!Corrin

M!Corrin

Draug

Effie

Eirika

Eliwood

Fir

Frederick

Gaius

Gwendolyn

Hana

Hector (Lol Fury 3 Hector)

Henry

Hinata

Jaffar

Jakob

Jeorge

Karel

Lon'qu

Lucina

Lyn

Marth

Matthew

Merric

Navarre

Ninian

Odin

Ogma

Olivia

Raven

F!Robin

M!Robin

Roy

Ryoma

Saizo

Selena

Sharena

Sheena

Sully

Takumi

Tharja

Y!Tiki

Virion

Basically: +Atk kills Anna, Eliwood, Frederick, Gaius, Hana, Hinata, Jeorge, Navarre, Ninian, Sheena, and Tharja over +Spd.

+Spd kills Abel, Barst, Cain, Fae, Laslow, Nowi, Oboro, Stahl, and S!Xander over +Atk.

Comparison:

+Atk Setsuna KOs over +Atk Takumi:

Abel, Arthur, Barst, Cain, Fae, Laslow, Nowi, Ogma, Olivia, F!Robin, and Stahl.

Of which only Nowi is notable.

+Atk Takumi KOs over +Atk Setsuna:

Anna, Bartre, Eldigan, Eliwood, Frederick, Gaius, Hana, Hector (If it's Fury 3, Hector lives, and, uh, so does Setsuna), Hinata, Jeorge, Navarre, Ninian, Olivia, Peri, Sheena, Tharja, and A!Tiki.

Good thing you never see Dancers, Hectors, Ryoma (if you can buff Takumi slightly), Tharja, or A!Tiki in arena, am I right?

Edited April 12, 2017 by DehNutCase

[ILikeKirbys]

@Kaden Ah, yeah, that's quite a bit of overkill on the SPD front. Darting Blow might not be worthwhile after all...

@mcsilas The thought process behind putting Galeforce on Hinoka was that, after combat with a lancer (who she doubles, thanks to Lancebreaker), Hinoka would have hit the 5 actions needed to activate Galeforce (assuming they survive to the fifth hit and Hinoka survives the counterattack(s), which I think there's a decent chance of vs a lancer), thus giving Hinoka another turn to do whatever you want her to, whether that's running away, finishing her foe or attacking another enemy. Of course, in hindsight, this is probably not very practical (I'm not sure how many lancers survive 4 hits from Hinoka and don't also kill her in one shot, or how common they are), it was just a thought.

[mcsilas]

50 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

@Kaden Ah, yeah, that's quite a bit of overkill on the SPD front. Darting Blow might not be worthwhile after all...

@mcsilas The thought process behind putting Galeforce on Hinoka was that, after combat with a lancer (who she doubles, thanks to Lancebreaker), Hinoka would have hit the 5 actions needed to activate Galeforce (assuming they survive to the fifth hit and Hinoka survives the counterattack(s), which I think there's a decent chance of vs a lancer), thus giving Hinoka another turn to do whatever you want her to, whether that's running away, finishing her foe or attacking another enemy. Of course, in hindsight, this is probably not very practical (I'm not sure how many lancers survive 4 hits from Hinoka and don't also kill her in one shot, or how common they are), it was just a thought.

Fair enough I appreciate the input anyway, I was just thinking out loud myself :)

just did a quick investigation and with Death Blow, the only Lance unit she doesn't beat is Gwendolyn (and Nowi, Robin and Odin if we are extending to other Blue units). If she was neutral Attack then it's only Nowi and she beats all Lance units.

Dang Atrack banes :(

[eclipse]

1 hour ago, Aera said:

Is there any skills other than Desperation 3 and Moonbow to make my Lucina a little bit more differentiated? She's Spring Lucina and currently sitting at 1100 SP. LOL. She's -Def and +Res. Is there any other skills I can put on her? 

Swordbreaker for guaranteed doubles against some pretty common units.  R Tomebreaker if Tharja is giving you grief.

Ardent Sacrifice + Wings of Mercy for a mobile healer that can hit back.

[ILikeKirbys]

30 minutes ago, mcsilas said:

Fair enough I appreciate the input anyway, I was just thinking out loud myself :)

just did a quick investigation and with Death Blow, the only Lance unit she doesn't beat is Gwendolyn (and Nowi, Robin and Odin if we are extending to other Blue units). If she was neutral Attack then it's only Nowi and she beats all Lance units.

Dang Atrack banes :(

Wait wait wait

Your Hinoka beats Effie? I'm kind of amazed, I would've assumed she'd just do a sizable chunk of chip damage, probably break Wary Fighter, but not kill.

So, which Sacred Seal are you gonna use for your Hinoka? I think ATK +1 might help you a little, since yours is -ATK, but HP +3 might help if you need to live longer.

Edited April 13, 2017 by ILikeKirbys

[ExKalibur]

4 hours ago, BANRYU said:

Righto, here's my best stab at an analysis for @eclipse's boy Raigh. Don't/didn't have as much time as I'd have liked to do a more in-depth writeup so hope y'all can forgive bullets and stuff. 

  Hide contents

Raigh - 41 HP / 32 Atk / 29 Spd / 22 Def / 29 Res

Goods: 

• same Atk as Tharja
• pretty good Res and a decent Speed tier
• received when starting the game, so guaranteed to obtain
• has a decent kit to begin with in terms of passives and assist

Notso-goods:

• bad default weapon (unless Horse Emblem becomes substantially more popular) and thus has to inherit better ones
• has trouble standing out compared to the other red mages who either have more Res or more Spd

Suggested Build:

• Atk+, HP-
• Raudrblade+
• Rally Atk / Reciprocal Aid / whatever
• Draconic Aura / Luna
• Darting Blow 3 (Atk+) / Swift Sparrow 2 (neutral)
• Swordbreaker 3
• Threaten Res 3

Out of all the sets and variations I ran calcs on, this one got the best results. Atk boon and Darting Blow are slightly better than neutral and Swift Sparrow but the differences are relatively minor. 

With Darting Blow, a neutral (AKA the one you get at the start) Raigh can safely initiate the attack on any vanilla chars in the game without being killed by anyone except Kagero and +Spd Jaffar & Linde, while the listed nature of Raigh lands significantly more kills but is vulnerable to being killed by +Spd Setsuna. Toss Eirika's boosts on top of this, and he only loses to Kagero, though having a +4 boost to Atk or a rally in Def or Res lets him OHKO her, and mostly only misses out on ~40% of blues + the Res-happy greys. 

Procs are chosen for power since Raudrblade slows the special counter, and can be used after 2 rounds of doubling something that can't counterattack to nuke anything that might be left (though he'll probably need healing to last long enough to use it unless he's nuking 1-range reds/greens). 

TBQH Tharja still mostly does this better (I tried, but was unable to find a set where he can perform better than Tharja OTL), with the only real differences being Raigh's ability to avoid being killed by Leo and Odin when initiating. All things said he's not that bad, just has a bit of trouble standing out... 

Nice write-up / analysis on Raigh; I appreciate it :).  Just a few things to note though...

Raigh naturally has 36 HP (41HP is with his base skill).  Also, instead of +Atk/Darting blow (which gives Raigh 48 Atk / 29+6), (+Spd/-Def) + Fury 3 might be better as it gives him 48 Atk / 35 spd on both offense and defense.  His bulk also becomes 36/22/32, which allow him to survive neutral ATK vanilla Reinhardt's dire Thunder.

Edit: I'm starting to question whether +Atk/Darting blow is even worth using over +Spd/Fury 3 for any sets in general... (other than not having that particular IV variant).

Edited April 13, 2017 by Kalibur

[BANRYU]

24 minutes ago, Kalibur said:

Nice write-up / analysis on Raigh; I appreciate it :).  Just a few things to note though...

Raigh naturally has 36 HP (41HP is with his base skill).  Also, instead of +Atk/Darting blow (which gives Raigh 48 Atk / 29+6), (+Spd/-Def) + Fury 3 might be better as it gives him 48 Atk / 35 spd on both offense and defense.  His bulk also becomes 36/22/32, which allow him to survive neutral ATK vanilla Reinhardt's dire Thunder.

Edit: I'm starting to question whether +Atk/Darting blow is even worth using over +Spd/Fury 3 for any sets in general... (other than not having that particular IV variant).

oh poop I thought I remembered his HP being lower, that's my bad ~__~ Silly mistake. 

TBH Fury crossed my mind once or twice given that he has some decent magic bulk already, though I didn't think to test with it for whatever reason... Thanks for the interest and input! I'll look into some further stuff if/when I get the chance.

Ahh yeah... Darting Blow is hard to find uses for, it's true. I guess it's more of like a B-class / filler skill type deal... I WAS kinda surprised that, out of all the options between Spd+ natures, Death Blow, and Swift Sparrow Darting Blow was actually the most effective in terms of total kills earned. Even if Fury gets him fewer though it might still be worth investing in, since special bulk IS like the one thing Raigh has on Tharja... and is probably speedier than Lil/Sanaki, so... that might be something. 

[Kaden]

Y'know, as someone who doesn't care much about arena, I wonder how much my opinions on unit building would differ from others. Brave Bow Setsuna is awesome even if she's pointless when 4 others, Gordin, Jeorge, Klein, Takumi, do it better... maybe 7 others, adding in possibly Faye, Rebecca, and Virion. Has anyone tried making a different build for her that the others can't do as well? Pretty sure almost everyone can do her default skills better than her if you wanted a dedicated anti-thief archer or an anti-archer archer which Klein and Takumi do with their normal sets. Maybe she'll never get away from being a second-rate archer, but at least she's not Odin...

[mcsilas]

1 hour ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Wait wait wait

Your Hinoka beats Effie? I'm kind of amazed, I would've assumed she'd just do a sizable chunk of chip damage, probably break Wary Fighter, but not kill.

So, which Sacred Seal are you gonna use for your Hinoka? I think ATK +1 might help you a little, since yours is -ATK, but HP +3 might help if you need to live longer.

According to the calc it does. Brave lance ignores Wary Fighter, Lancebreaker does double and Luna procs. Hinoka lives with 14 HP against neutral Effie (in comparison, Cordelia lives with only 10 HP if that's her boon. Otherewise neutral HP is 7 HP).

i think i'll go Attack+1 since even with Death Blow, she currently misses out on Seliph, Eldigan and Draug. The extra point KOs Seliph while Eldigan lives with 1 HP with the Attack bane.

 

[DehNutCase]

10 minutes ago, mcsilas said:

According to the calc it does. Brave lance ignores Wary Fighter, Lancebreaker does double and Luna procs. Hinoka lives with 14 HP against neutral Effie (in comparison, Cordelia lives with only 10 HP if that's her boon. Otherewise neutral HP is 7 HP).

i think i'll go Attack+1 since even with Death Blow, she currently misses out on Seliph, Eldigan and Draug. The extra point KOs Seliph while Eldigan lives with 1 HP with the Attack bane.

 

It's lance-breaker that negates Wary Fighter, actually.

Cannot double and always double effects negate each other, causing normal spd calculation to take place. (It doesn't remove it for Effie, in this case, however. Even if Effie had 100 Spd she wouldn't double, although Hinoka would fail to double her back.)

[Ice Dragon]

13 minutes ago, mcsilas said:

According to the calc it does. Brave lance ignores Wary Fighter, Lancebreaker does double and Luna procs. Hinoka lives with 14 HP against neutral Effie (in comparison, Cordelia lives with only 10 HP if that's her boon. Otherewise neutral HP is 7 HP).

i think i'll go Attack+1 since even with Death Blow, she currently misses out on Seliph, Eldigan and Draug. The extra point KOs Seliph while Eldigan lives with 1 HP with the Attack bane.

Brave weapons' special effect is separate and distinct from the follow-up attack mechanic. Nothing that affects follow-up attacks affects Brave weapons and Brave weapons don't affect follow-up attacks.

Lancebreaker and Wary Fighter negate each other. You are not guaranteed a follow-up attack. You need to out-speed the opponent by 5 points in order to perform a follow-up attack in that match-up.

[mcsilas]

Oh okay, I just went with what I saw from the calculator (just started using the calc a few days ago)

For what it's worth, Hinoka is faster than Effie (27 vs. 22)

• Hinoka gains 6 attack by initiating combat [Death Blow 3].
• Hinoka attacks. 13 damage dealt. 
  Effie HP: 50 → 37
• Hinoka attacks again immediately [Brave Lance+]. 13 damage dealt. 
  Effie HP: 37 → 24
• Effie counter-attacks. 30 damage dealt. 
  Hinoka HP: 44 → 14
• Hinoka makes a follow-up attack, while canceling any follow-up attack from the opponent [Lancebreaker 3]. Opponent's defense and resistance lowered by 50% [Luna]. 29 damage dealt. 
  Effie HP: 24 → 0

[ILikeKirbys]

@Kaden Eh, I don't really care about Arena building right now either (I built a cavalry team with Reinhardt for all my feather-getting needs), I mostly just think in a vacuum of probably-wouldn't-be-practical-but-wouldn't-it-be-so-cool-if and trying to make units I like work.
Although, how does Gordin do better with a Brave Bow than Setsuna?

@mcsilas I'm kinda suprised. I honestly thought Hinoka would get killed on the counterattack here. Guess I overestimated Effie (were you using neutral-ATK or +ATK Effie tho?).

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

I'm kinda suprised. I honestly thought Hinoka would get killed on the counterattack here. Guess I overestimated Effie (were you using neutral-ATK or +ATK Effie tho?).

Neutral Effie has 55 Atk with her default weapon. Neutral Hinoka has 25 Def.

Effie's dangerousness comes mostly from naturally having Death Blow, which doesn't activate on a counterattack.

[Kaden]

8 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

@Kaden Eh, I don't really care about Arena building right now either (I built a cavalry team with Reinhardt for all my feather-getting needs), I mostly just think in a vacuum of probably-wouldn't-be-practical-but-wouldn't-it-be-so-cool-if and trying to make units I like work.
Although, how does Gordin do better with a Brave Bow than Setsuna?

I figure if you just need a unit to burst someone down with one attack from Brave Bow, Gordin does it well. He won't be able to follow-up like Jeorge, Klein, Niles, Rebecca, Setsuna, Takumi, or maybe Virion, though. That and being physically tanky which is one of the reasons why he was considered very useful on Lunatic Navarre's map. Setsuna can negate a follow-up indefinitely, but she's still taking a lot of damage while Gordin can do a ton of damage and not take as much damage even if he gets doubled. His style of Brave Bow is different, however, so it's not entirely fair to say he does Brave Bow completely better than Setsuna. Niles, for example, could do a similar Brave Bow style that Gordin does, but against mages. Setsuna's more of Klein's style.

I'm just frustrated at not having Setsuna and gaining my only non-Virion archer, Niles, in my 21st summon only to be given Niles again for free. You do not know the pain of not having any freaking archers for 21 summons straight knowing full well that Gordin, Niles, and Setsuna can be summoned as 3*. Virion showed up in one summon and that was like 15 summons ago, but it was Virion, the archer you start out with.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Kaden

[MonkeyCheez3K]

Is there any character who can reliably use Close Counter besides Takumi? I have a spare one and I can't seem to find any worthy successor... Merging with my other Takumi feels wrong as Takumi lost a lot of his appeal with SI and I am content with having an efficient one, where the +2 stats wouldn't matter. I wanted to give it to my Spring Festival Lucina (as she is fairly bulky in comparison to Linde and a lot faster than Robin), but I got a -DEF/+RES one and I don't think I'll get a second one, unfortunately (which is a shame, I kinda wanted a Spring Lucina to replace my Robin as the Blarraven mage).

So just in general, what unit could actually benefit from Close Counter? I just don't see any.

Edited April 13, 2017 by MonkeyCheez3K

[ILikeKirbys]

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Neutral Effie has 55 Atk with her default weapon. Neutral Hinoka has 25 Def.

Effie's dangerousness comes mostly from naturally having Death Blow, which doesn't activate on a counterattack.

Ah, so that was neutral-ATK Effie then.

No wonder I thought Effie was such a monster when I was training her up... I was always the one attacking, so Death Blow was always active. And I can definitely see DB making her a monster, after what DB2 did to my Reinhardt (good god the thought of 55-ATK Reinhardt is terrifying, even Triangle Adept 3 Greens are probably still taking decent-size chunks of damage from that). Thanks for pointing that out, Ice Dragon.

Now I'm kinda wondering if Effie would possibly be able to run Life And Death and Quick Riposte over Death Blow and Wary Fighter... it would give her extra power all the time (not quite as much as Death Blow, but it would still be in effect on Enemy Phase), and I think she has the defenses to eat the -5 DEF/RES, and with auto-doubling on defense, Effie might just have the power to finish off anyone who attacks her. And throw Draconic Aura on her too, for occasional massive-er damage (Effie has I think 57/60/63 ATK after Life And Death 3, and only 24/28/31 DEF after LAD3, so I think Draconic Aura might be a bit better than Bonfire here). You'd probably have to run a Reciprocal Aid-er or Ardent Sacrifice-er with this Effie, but I think it could work.

@Kaden Yeah, I think I posted a Niles build a while back in the thread (dunno where exactly, sorry) that was basically just a mage-tank that could kill stuff with Killer Bow + Iceberg (and thanks for reminding me that I need to train up that free Niles we got today, I completely forgot to do that). And yeah, Setsuna with a Brave Bow would be more along the lines of Klein from what I've seen of both of them... Not that I've seen much of Klein, since I've never pulled him and I have Reinhardt bring THUNDER'S FIST down on him before he can do anything when I see him in the arena, but still.

[Ice Dragon]

16 minutes ago, MonkeyCheez3K said:

Is there any character who can reliably use Close Counter besides Takumi? I have a spare one and I can't seem to find any worthy successor... Merging with my other Takumi feels wrong as Takumi lost a lot of his appeal with SI and I am content with having an efficient one, where the +2 stats wouldn't matter. I wanted to give it to my Spring Festival Lucina (as she is fairly bulky in comparison to Linde and a lot faster than Robin), but I got a -DEF/+RES one and I don't think I'll get a second one, unfortunately (which is a shame, I kinda wanted a Spring Lucina to replace my Robin as the Blarraven mage).

So just in general, what unit could actually benefit from Close Counter? I just don't see any.

You want an archer or mage with good Def that can successfully land counter kills without dying. I've been having success with my Close Counter Quick Riposte Robin (M).