Skill Inheritance Discussion.

[Ice Dragon]

14 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

That's... interesting. 

Although according to my numbers, Blarblade Olwen is even better than that .3. Compared DT / Death Blow / Atk boon / Atk SS to Blade / LaD / Desp / Atk boon / Atk SS and Blade takes it by a significant margin. 

Be that as it may... yeah, Olwen might be outright better than Reinhardt on dedicated cavalry teams. It's too bad the one I pulled is +Spd/-Atk =u=

Olwen should be running Life and Death, not Death Blow, so that she can avoid losing her amazing Spd stat. Her HP is low enough that even at +10, she can use Ardent Sacrifice to safely activate Desperation if she needs to, which also synergizes well with Eldigan's and Xander's popular Fury builds.

Also Draconic Aura for anything that survives the first 3 hits of Dire Thunder.

[DehNutCase]

1 hour ago, BANRYU said:

If you give her Blarblade instead though she's actually really freaking fast?? Basically she becomes mounted Linde (but stronger, after Hone Cav) and is really solid in general as long as she gets rid of Dire Thunder and stops trying to be her bro. Like... she has less Atk compared to Ursula, but 2 more speed at neutral AND has the benefit of actually being able to have differing natures, letting her hit 37 Spd with a boon in that or beat Ursula's Atk by 1 if she has a boon in that (while also still being faster). 

Linde with +4/+4 buffs actually beats out Olwen with +6/+6 even counting 4 extra attack from -Blade tome bonuses---Linde's spread is just that good. Hone Cavalry being Cavalry only also soft locks Olwen into a horse team. (Once Olwen gets +6 to all stats she finally pulls ahead, but that's more Bladetome being good than Olwen herself.)

That said, Dire thunder is a very good tome, even for a horse team Olwen. (+Atk buffs have double effect just like for Blade-tomes, double hit means specials charge faster, and Olwen has the speed to follow up with the +Spd boni, further speeding special charge and netting KOs. I would personally run Galeforce on Olwen over Draconic, she loses some 1RKOs but gains a very reliable second turn after 2 combats---Olwen would be part of a 2 horse pair in that case, with dancer and bonus unit filling out the rest of the team.)

 

She's pretty good, but Rein has a higher floor----needs far less support to shine---is 4* base, and has actual bulk. (He gets doubled by everything, but breakers prevent tons of 1RKOs due to his high single hit bulk, and, sitting on a fort, he's bulky enough to survive the weaker doubles.) In an ideal world Olwen would beat out Rein (she pulls ahead with buffs since +Spd buffs actually does things for her), but for people with limited resources, Rein is more likely to turn out good than Olwen. (Even -Atk Rein is usable because he has so damn much of it, but -Atk or -Spd ruins Olwen. Not to mention the fact that you have more chances to pull Rein, meaning more chances for a decent bane.)

[Ice Dragon]

29 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Linde with +4/+4 buffs

Getting +4 Atk and +4 Spd on an infantry unit either requires support from 2 units or comes at the cost of one unit's turn, whereas +6 Atk and +6 Spd on a cavalry unit requires support from 1 other unit. When it comes to team-building and unit placement, Olwen is actually less restricting.

 

31 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

I would personally run Galeforce on Olwen over Draconic,

Galeforce cannot be taught to units with ranged or magical attack.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Which is super lame, because that means future Dark Fliers are cut off from their signature ability.

[DehNutCase]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Galeforce cannot be taught to units with ranged or magical attack.

That's... interesting.

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Getting +4 Atk and +4 Spd on an infantry unit either requires support from 2 units or comes at the cost of one unit's turn, whereas +6 Atk and +6 Spd on a cavalry unit requires support from 1 other unit. When it comes to team-building and unit placement, Olwen is actually less restricting.

Linde with +3/+4 is still superior to +6/+6 Olwen, admittedly, that needs either Eirika or Ephraim, but if 'placement' is an issue, 'team-building' can compensate for Linde.

That said, I don't quite see how being forced to run 2 Cavalry units is 'less restricting' than Linde who can just be dumped into a team with a pair of Hones, which could come from fliers, cavalry, infantry, or armored. If Olwen doesn't have another cavalry or two to support her, she no longer has any stat advantages. Yes, positioning is easier, but team-building, hardly, since you need Olwen + another useful cavalry just to make her the better choice over Linde. 2 Cavalry also gives a big case of 4 unit slot syndrome, in that, if your bonus unit isn't a cavalry, you only have 1 slot left for a utility unit like a dancer, full time buff-bot (third horse since its Olwen), or specialist (Klein to counter Flier emblem, Ruby Sword Selena because you really hate greens, etc.).

[Ice Dragon]

11 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

That said, I don't quite see how being forced to run 2 Cavalry units is 'less restricting' than Linde who can just be dumped into a team with a pair of Hones, which could come from fliers, cavalry, infantry, or armored. If Olwen doesn't have another cavalry or two to support her, she no longer has any stat advantages. Yes, positioning is easier, but team-building, hardly, since you need Olwen + another useful cavalry just to make her the better choice over Linde. 2 Cavalry also gives a big case of 4 unit slot syndrome, in that, if your bonus unit isn't a cavalry, you only have 1 slot left for a utility unit like a dancer, full time buff-bot (third horse since its Olwen), or specialist (Klein to counter Flier emblem, Ruby Sword Selena because you really hate greens, etc.).

Being forced to run one of any of the available cavalry units as support is less restricting than being forced to run one of Eirika or Ephraim and is less restricting on positioning than being forced to end your turn next to two other units.

You say this like there isn't a large pool of useful cavalry units to use.

 

19 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

I don't quite see how being forced to run 2 Cavalry units

Only one. Using Olwen doesn't count against using Olwen. Only the support unit is forced, and she only needs one support unit.

 

15 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

full time buff-bot (third horse since its Olwen)

Olwen has zero use for Fortify Cavalry. Zero. If you're using your third slot for a cavalry buffer, they'd be there to buff your Hone Cavalry unit, not to buff Olwen because Olwen doesn't need it.

Two infantry and two cavalry (or two cavalry and two fliers) is a very normal team build.

[Clogon]

31 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Olwen has zero use for Fortify Cavalry. Zero. If you're using your third slot for a cavalry buffer, they'd be there to buff your Hone Cavalry unit, not to buff Olwen because Olwen doesn't need it.

Two infantry and two cavalry (or two cavalry and two fliers) is a very normal team build.

Agreed. Sadly, my Erika is +3. This is legit the only reason why my team options are very limited as she gives me lots of Arena points.

Edit:

I dislike Olwen because she is much more expensive than Reinhardt. Not only is she locked to 5*, LaD is as well.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Clogon

[DehNutCase]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Only one. Using Olwen doesn't count against using Olwen. Only the support unit is forced, and she only needs one support unit.

*Shrugg* The thing is, Olwen needs that support to outperform Linde. That is, Linde without Erika or Ephraim has better stats than Olwen without a Cav buffer, and Linde with Eph/Erika has better stats than Olwen with a cav buffer. Basically: Linde has the higher floor and a very similar ceiling. (Full Cav buffed Olwen is marginally better than Eirika buff-botted Linde---that is, Hone, Rally, Hone seal, and Prf. A difference of 1 or two wins.)

Linde doesn't need Erika or Ephraim at all---she's a top tier offensive mage with just L&D (over 100 wins with +Atk, and over 80 if enemies all have Fury 3). Olwen is around 85 with just L&D, and around 61 if enemies all have fury 3. It's still quite good, offensively, but she needs her cavalry backback to have a reason to be on the team---85 wins is Alfonse tier, I'm not even kidding, he has 82 wins with 20 hp, brash, and his Prf buff up---whereas Linde can just slot herself into any team and be competent.

They end at the same place, but Linde starts closer to it---this means that the only time Olwen overtakes is when 'power-spikes' happen, that is, +6/+6 versus no buffs for Linde (+4/+0 Linde is about 5 wins worse than Olwen. 6 if both are using blade tomes, a drop in the bucket since they're both over 110 wins at that point. And of course, Linde overtakes again if she manages to get a speed buff or Erika and Ephraim.)

To put it another way: I just don't see how 'only' needing one support unit is better than needing 0 to be competent, and easier on team-building. Same reason why I prefer Rein over Olwen---Olwen outperforms with +4/+4, but not every team has 2 buffs, much less a dedicated horse buffer. 'Only' needing 1 buffer is a minus, not a plus.

3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

You say this like there isn't a large pool of useful cavalry units to use.

Physical cavalry that can outperform physical flier/infantry in raw combat stats don't exist. Horse mages are excellent due to cav buffs and -blade tomes, but you don't always want to lock yourself into two horse mages right off the bat. There's a large pool of usable cavalry, certainly, but that 'large' pool is a drop in the ocean compared to the sheer amount of excellent fliers and infantry---for every Eldigan there's a Chrom, a Seliph, and a Laslow, for every Frederick there's a Cherche, a Bartre, and a Michalis, for every Peri there's a Cordelia, a Hinoka, and Sharena.

A Olwen & Physical horse combo has better mobility, but less combat stats than a Linde & physical unit combo. A Olwen & magical horse combo is two horse mages already---the setup is so biased that the optimal picks up become 'make the team horse emblem already.'

 

I can buy that Olwen has a higher Ceiling than Linde, she has mobility and cavalry buffs on her side. But easier on team building? No.

[fatboyjam]

@MrSmokestack (or whoever else feels like weighing in): wanted to ask a quick question before I start my epic Xander build 

I'm looking at taking both my Xanders, leveling and building them up in different directions, then merging to create a 5* monster that allows me to play offensively and defensively, depending on team (I don't just want to run him in Horse Emblem, but as a Ryoma/Ike-type red w/ my infantry team) 

Looking at your write-up and quite a few other posts, I'm thinking of these splits: 

- Offensive: Bonfire/Fury3/Vantage3
- Defensive: Ignis/Def+3/QR2

Thoughts on those skill sets...or any different direction you'd take either of those builds?

 

[Lyrai]

8 minutes ago, fatboyjam said:

- Offensive: Bonfire/Fury3/Vantage3
- Defensive: Ignis/Def+3/QR2

Thoughts on those skill sets...or any different direction you'd take either of those builds?

The offensive build is a great idea as the overall build just suits well for him. But as for the Defensive one...

Def+3 is a bad idea imo. He's already so bulky physically, so he doesn't need it. How about taking HP+5 or Res+3 instead if you really wanna go defensive?

[fatboyjam]

7 minutes ago, Lyrai said:

The offensive build is a great idea as the overall build just suits well for him. But as for the Defensive one...

Def+3 is a bad idea imo. He's already so bulky physically, so he doesn't need it. How about taking HP+5 or Res+3 instead if you really wanna go defensive?

I leaned towards Def+3 as a way to possibly hold onto QR for another turn. Triangle Adept or Attack+3 were my other two considerations for the defensive A skill. Attack/Defense +2 would have been perfect if I had a Spring Chrom, but alas...

[Lyrai]

3 minutes ago, fatboyjam said:

I leaned towards Def+3 as a way to possibly hold onto QR for another turn. Triangle Adept or Attack+3 were my other two considerations for the defensive A skill. Attack/Defense +2 would have been perfect if I had a Spring Chrom, but alas...

There's always an Ardent Sacrifice in case you really need to hold onto QR's threshold  :3

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Galeforce cannot be taught to units with ranged or magical attack.

Darn. Surely that's something I do not know myself. It's a shame I can't inherit it to my ranged units... :<

Edited May 26, 2017 by Lyrai

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

11 hours ago, BANRYU said:

Has anyone talked about Olwen at all? Because uhh. I saw one in the rankings for the Voting Gauntlet who wasn't running Dire Thunder and it occurred to me that the reason she's considered bad next to Reinhardt is because people try to make her Reinhardt 2.0... (though granted she also doesn't come with a great default kit, admittedly) 

If you give her Blarblade instead though she's actually really freaking fast?? Basically she becomes mounted Linde (but stronger, after Hone Cav) and is really solid in general as long as she gets rid of Dire Thunder and stops trying to be her bro. Like... she has less Atk compared to Ursula, but 2 more speed at neutral AND has the benefit of actually being able to have differing natures, letting her hit 37 Spd with a boon in that or beat Ursula's Atk by 1 if she has a boon in that (while also still being faster). 

 

Theres not much to talk about her tbh

"She's the best unit in the game" just about sums it up. Its also funny since Horses normally had a huge advantage in playing supporting role, and Olwen STARTS with the required skill to do it

Funny enough her case is essentially a reverse Takumi

Edited May 26, 2017 by JSND

[MrSmokestack]

@fatboyjam @Lyrai Leave it to the guy who wrote the analysis, please

After a good deal of discussion in this thread with other users as well as my own personal experience using Xander in Arena, there are generally 3 A Passives you want to consider: Fury, Triangle Adept, or Speed +3.

Fury is my personal choice because of how well it improves Xander's bulk all around, though Triangle Adept turns him into a solid green check that can tank some of the most powerful -Blade boosted attacks in the game, even without a defensive tile. Speed +3 is mostly a budget option to prevent a few doubles, which are more likely to dent Xander than a single isolated hit, whether physical or magical. However, it falls flat against Fury + Moonbow variants of base 34+16's like Lucina and Ryoma without a defensive tile.

More physical bulk is never a bad thing, and on the other hand Xander's Res isn't exactly fixable. He sits at an impressive 44 / 40 / 20 with Fury, and on a defensive tile that becomes 44 / 52 / 26. Overall it's a weak point that can't really be fixed without Triangle Adept. But the same can be said for the vast majority of units in the Arena meta.

Vantage and Quick Riposte are inherently defensive skills, and there are other red cavalry like Eliwood and Leo that are better suited to going on the offensive than Xander. Don't make him into something he's not.

Between Ignis and Bonfire, Ignis tends to fare worse because it won't proc in a single round of combat, even against units that double Xander. Even with a killer weapon to accelerate the special trigger, Ignis still misses out on KO's simply because it never procs in the first place. I'd advise against using it.

Hope this helps.

[Lyrai]

3 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

@fatboyjam @Lyrai Leave it to the guy who wrote the analysis, please

Overall it's a weak point that can't really be fixed without Triangle Adept. But the same can be said for the vast majority of units in the Arena meta.

It kind of hurts me a little to hear that, but I'll be fine. Just wanted to help out. Still, you make the best analysis in the end. I guess low RES isn't really a fixable thing in the arena, but I'm still thinking about its viability to my Nino, as +3 RES did saved her life a few times on my side.

5 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Vantage and Quick Riposte are inherently defensive skills, and there are other red cavalry like Eliwood and Leo that are better suited to going on the offensive than Xander.

Do you mean Leo's proccing QR / Savage Blow in the enemy phase kind of offensive, or a Blade tome Leo?
As for Eliwood, as I'm an Eliwood user myself, I agree his Durandal makes him the hardest hitting sword user of the bunch.

[fatboyjam]

49 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

@fatboyjam @Lyrai Leave it to the guy who wrote the analysis, please

After a good deal of discussion in this thread with other users as well as my own personal experience using Xander in Arena, there are generally 3 A Passives you want to consider: Fury, Triangle Adept, or Speed +3.

Fury is my personal choice because of how well it improves Xander's bulk all around, though Triangle Adept turns him into a solid green check that can tank some of the most powerful -Blade boosted attacks in the game, even without a defensive tile. Speed +3 is mostly a budget option to prevent a few doubles, which are more likely to dent Xander than a single isolated hit, whether physical or magical. However, it falls flat against Fury + Moonbow variants of base 34+16's like Lucina and Ryoma without a defensive tile.

More physical bulk is never a bad thing, and on the other hand Xander's Res isn't exactly fixable. He sits at an impressive 44 / 40 / 20 with Fury, and on a defensive tile that becomes 44 / 52 / 26. Overall it's a weak point that can't really be fixed without Triangle Adept. But the same can be said for the vast majority of units in the Arena meta.

Vantage and Quick Riposte are inherently defensive skills, and there are other red cavalry like Eliwood and Leo that are better suited to going on the offensive than Xander. Don't make him into something he's not.

Between Ignis and Bonfire, Ignis tends to fare worse because it won't proc in a single round of combat, even against units that double Xander. Even with a killer weapon to accelerate the special trigger, Ignis still misses out on KO's simply because it never procs in the first place. I'd advise against using it.

Hope this helps.

It does, thanks. I'll go with the Bonfire/Fury/Vantage build I planned and hold off on any variants for now. I can always bring in TriAdept/QR later on if I get wrecked by green/blade attacks. I'm excited to 5* him...I haven't been getting any defensive arena wins lately and his distant counter should help change that.

[Ice Dragon]

5 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

To put it another way: I just don't see how 'only' needing one support unit is better than needing 0 to be competent, and easier on team-building. Same reason why I prefer Rein over Olwen---Olwen outperforms with +4/+4, but not every team has 2 buffs, much less a dedicated horse buffer. 'Only' needing 1 buffer is a minus, not a plus.

Needing 1 support unit is obviously a demerit compared to not needing a support unit at all, but needing 1 support unit out of a pool of 21 units (almost all of whom are combat viable simply due to 2-cavalry synergy) to hit ceiling by far beats out needing 1 support unit out of a pool of 2 units to hit ceiling (1 of whom is of only passable combat worth).

Furthermore, Olwen and her support unit have synergy with each other in that they both give each other considerable buffs without need for additional units. On the other hand, Linde isn't going to be much help to whichever unit you're using to buff her.

 

5 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

There's a large pool of usable cavalry, certainly, but that 'large' pool is a drop in the ocean compared to the sheer amount of excellent fliers and infantry---for every Eldigan there's a Chrom, a Seliph, and a Laslow, for every Frederick there's a Cherche, a Bartre, and a Michalis, for every Peri there's a Cordelia, a Hinoka, and Sharena.

One sixth of the entire pool of characters is hardly a drop in the ocean, and the proportion of mediocre infantry is significantly higher than the proportion of mediocre cavalry, which closes the gap even more.

 

5 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

A Olwen & Physical horse combo has better mobility, but less combat stats than a Linde & physical unit combo. A Olwen & magical horse combo is two horse mages already---the setup is so biased that the optimal picks up become 'make the team horse emblem already.'

In order for Linde to beat Olwen's combat stats, Linde's support unit must forfeit their turn. In terms of match-up performance, Linde with only the start-of-turn Renais buffs is no better than Olwen's.

Furthermore, the two-cavalry team composition in no way makes the optimal picks another two cavalry units. A third cavalry unit doesn't give a noticeably larger benefit to your team compared to an infantry or flying unit, and the synergy of the third and fourth units with each other is more important than the synergy between the two halves of your team.

[DehNutCase]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Needing 1 support unit is obviously a demerit compared to not needing a support unit at all, but needing 1 support unit out of a pool of 21 units (almost all of whom are combat viable simply due to 2-cavalry synergy) to hit ceiling by far beats out needing 1 support unit out of a pool of 2 units to hit ceiling (1 of whom is of only passable combat worth).

That's the thing, though, Olwen needs to ceiling to be viable as a pickup, Linde's floor is high enough that nobody else is needed. L&D, +Atk with Aura, her default tome, is already 103 wins.

Olwen's 88 wins with L&D, +Atk, and Dire Thunder is respectable, of course, but not spectacular enough to be worth investment. Especially considering +Atk, DB 3 Rein sits at 99 wins.

With +6/+6, Olwen jumps to 116 with Dire Thunder, 122 with Blade tome. (Reinhardt, incidentally, also goes to 116 with +6/+6 with Dire Thunder, 115 with Blade tome, while staying bulkier due to DB rather than L&D.)

With +4/+0, Linde goes up to 116 with Blade tome. (With +3/+4 she goes up to 122 with Blade tome.) +4/+0 is something literally every single unit can give, and it gives comparable results to Cav buffed Olwen. You don't need to ceiling if your floor is most people's ceilings.

This means: For around 15 matchups, Linde has less positioning requirements than Olwen (103 - 88, since she doesn't need a buff for those people). For around 13 matchups, Linde has slightly stricter positioning requirements compared to Olwen (116 = 116. +6/+6 versus +4/+0 buffs, slight advantage to Olwen being Horse). For around 6 matchups, Olwen has a positioning and teambuilding advantage (122-116, positioning because Olwen is horse, teambuilding because there's 2 Restoration L's but lots of 'passable' cavalry.)

15 advantage, 19 disadvantage assuming running a second horse is costless. (Of course, it goes to Linde's advantage if we assume running restoration L's is costless.)

Also, Olwen v. Reinahrdt: 11 advantage for Rein (buffless state, 99 - 88), 17 tied (116 - 99), and 6 disadvantage for Rein (122 - 116), since he can't really win those 6 matchups without a fortify and blade tome build.

11 advantage Rein, 6 advantage Olwen. Not exactly a pretty picture for Olwen.

28 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Furthermore, Olwen and her support unit have synergy with each other in that they both give each other considerable buffs without need for additional units. On the other hand, Linde isn't going to be much help to whichever unit you're using to buff her.

Linde can give +4 buff to a single stat, just like every single unit. Linde goes to 116 with +4/+0, so it's safe to assume there are units out there with comparable performance to whatever horse Olwen decides to partner with---Linde can partner with every single other unit in the game, even horses, because they can also run Hone Atk 3 rather than Hone Type, Olwen needs to partner with another horse. 116 is Olwen's Dire Thunder ceiling. It's also basically the 'freebie' zone for -Blade Linde, given that any unit can give +4/+0.

Notably, Linde can give +4 buff to a single stat for multiple units, since Hone 3 is classless. Whereas Olwen in a horse-pair can only buff the other half. (This is why a dual horse pair heavily favors transitioning into Horse emblem, because there are two units outside the buff synergy otherwise. A horse pair also heavily favors not running Eirika or Ephraim, because other units can use their buffs better.)

35 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

One sixth of the entire pool of characters is hardly a drop in the ocean, and the proportion of mediocre infantry is significantly higher than the proportion of mediocre cavalry, which closes the gap even more.

Linde has access to the entire group of characters, including horses, if she wanted a buffer. You don't need to be infantry to give infantry buffs, Cordelia can pack Hone Atk 3.

38 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

In order for Linde to beat Olwen's combat stats, Linde's support unit must forfeit their turn. In terms of match-up performance, Linde with only the start-of-turn Renais buffs is no better than Olwen's.

In order for Linde to beat Olwen's combat stats: neither unit has a buffer, Linde advantage. This is the least positioning dependent scenario, and happens in around 15 matchups. (The ones that non-buffed Linde can grab but non-buffed Olwen can't.)

Linde is then tied with just +4/+0 compared to Dire thunder's +6/+6. And she loses by 6 compared to +6/+6 blade tome Olwen. (+3/+4 catches up again, so this is a either a matchup advantage or teambuilding advantage for Olwen, assuming the horse partner is significantly better than Eirika or Ephraim. And assuming no one else on the team likes the Restoration L's buffs. Running a Horse pair and a Restoration L is, of course, a joke, even though the twins are amazing in most teams.)

Also, don't forget about Sanaki as a buff option---TA 3, Hone Spd, Prf Sanaki can give +4/+4 with perfect positioning. It also neatly cover's Linde's green weakness. It's also the kind of buffer that Olwen simply doesn't want to use, because she's not min-maxed enough to use lesser buffers better than Linde.

38 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

In order for Linde to beat Olwen's combat stats, Linde's support unit must forfeit their turn. In terms of match-up performance, Linde with only the start-of-turn Renais buffs is no better than Olwen's.

Furthermore, the two-cavalry team composition in no way makes the optimal picks another two cavalry units. A third cavalry unit doesn't give a noticeably larger benefit to your team compared to an infantry or flying unit, and the synergy of the third and fourth units with each other is more important than the synergy between the two halves of your team.

A third cavalry gives noticeably larger benefit to your team because neither Olwen nor her Partner can buff the other units on the team otherwise, due to using class buffs. You say Linde can't benefit her buffer, and then turn around and forget everyone has Hone Atk/Spd access, while Hone Class type only buffs the class type. There are no horse dancers, no horse archers yet, and no horse fliers, meaning certain unit types simply can't be supported by Olwen or her partner.

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

With +6/+6, Olwen jumps to 116 with Dire Thunder, 122 with Blade tome. (Reinhardt, incidentally, also goes to 116 with +6/+6 with Dire Thunder, 115 with Blade tome, while staying bulkier due to DB rather than L&D.)

Is that with or without Draconic Aura? There's literally no reason not to give Olwen a 3-cooldown offensive special considering every enemy that can be double attacked (which is nearly everyone) is either dead or gets hit by her special.

Also put Desperation on both her and Linde and have it active. As much as it can be argued to be situational, with the prevalence of Fury, the setup needed to activate Desperation is nearly trivial.

There are a total of 7 match-ups against neutral vanilla +10 enemies that +10 Olwen with Hone Cavalry does not win (as of Spring Festival) (Arthur, Sheena, Minerva, Julia, Nino, Robin (F), and Felicia), 9 (+Spd Peri and +Spd Niles) if you include other nature vanilla +10s.

 

10 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

A third cavalry gives noticeably larger benefit to your team because neither Olwen nor her Partner can buff the other units on the team otherwise, due to using class buffs. You say Linde can't benefit her buffer, and then turn around and forget everyone has Hone Atk/Spd access, while Hone Class type only buffs the class type. There are no horse dancers, no horse archers yet, and no horse fliers, meaning certain unit types simply can't be supported by Olwen or her partner.

No, it doesn't. Adding a Fortify Cavalry unit doesn't help Olwen at all, meaning it would only help Olwen's support. Adding a Hone Cavalry unit doesn't help either of them at all because a 2-cavalry pair is already running Hone Cavalry on both units. You are better off picking a unit that covers the cavalry pair's match-up deficiencies rather than limiting your choice to another cavalry unit.

Linde's benefit to her buffer is no different than what any other unit would be able to do. In fact, having a single stat Hone or Fortify is the default situation, not an exception, which means Linde isn't doing anything special.

[Kaden]

Dumb idea: Olwen with 3 stacks of Goad Cavalry. +Atk Olwen with Dire Thunder and L&D3 gets 125 wins, 1 loss, and 4 draws with +12 to attack and speed through Goad Cavalry. Add in Draconic Aura and she moves up to 127 wins, 1 loss, and 2 draws. Desperation puts her into 128 wins, 0 losses, and 2 draws.

It's late at night and my phone needs to be charged -- too lazy to post with my computer. Anyway, just curious since Spur skills weren't mentioned as far as I know.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Kaden

[DehNutCase]

25 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Is that with or without Draconic Aura? There's literally no reason not to give Olwen a 3-cooldown offensive special considering every enemy that can be double attacked (which is nearly everyone) is either dead or gets hit by her special.

With Draconic Aura Olwen gets 2 more wins, bumping her up to 118. Note: I test with +0s, since that's closer to what I face in the arena, as well as being marginally faster to input. (Since I don't have to click the 'set everything to +10' button.)

25 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Also put Desperation on both her and Linde and have it active. As much as it can be argued to be situational, with the prevalence of Fury, the setup needed to activate Desperation is nearly trivial.

With desperation Olwen gains 2 wins from her former losses. With desperation Linde gains 1 win from her former losses (Blade, +Atk, +4/+0). Desperation usually doesn't matter too much in matchup comparison, since it only affects the numbers when you get one-shotted on the counter and you could 2HKO.

25 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Linde's benefit to her buffer is no different than what any other unit would be able to do. In fact, having a single stat Hone or Fortify is the default situation, not an exception, which means Linde isn't doing anything special.

Olwen and her horse partner fail to provide the 'default situation.' They provide better if more units on their team are horses, but worse if no other units are horses. The third horse doesn't have to pack fortify or hone, but it does have to be a horse to be buffed by Olwen and her partner, that's what I'm getting at. Fliers, armors, infantry and dragons don't get buffed by Olwen, meaning there would only be one unit who can provide the 'default' situation to half of your team. (Since units can't buff themselves.)

Hone Cav doesn't provide +4/+0 if an infantry is sitting next to the cavalry.

Edit:

23 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Dumb idea: Olwen with 3 stacks of Goad Cavalry. +Atk Olwen with Dire Thunder and L&D3 gets 125 wins, 1 loss, and 4 draws with +12 to attack and speed through Goad Cavalry. Add in Draconic Aura and she moves up to 127 wins, 1 loss, and 2 draws. Desperation puts her into 128 wins, 0 losses, and 2 draws.

It's late at night and my phone needs to be charged -- too lazy to post with my computer. Anyway, just curious since Spur skills weren't mentioned as far as I know.

Rein with +6 to all stats (far easier on positioning than 3 Goads), blade tome, L&D, +Atk/-Res has 128 wins, 2 draws. He also only has 4 losses on defense. Both of the draws are also melee, so he takes 0 counter damage from his draws. (In fact, Rein is so ridiculous that everyone except Hector and Julia is one-shotted, so he only takes counter damage from 2 units at all.) Olwen has 1 less win with the same build (+Atk/-Nothing), and dies to 1 unit on the counter without a bane, and dies to a bunch during EP. (24 units)

Rein is a freak of nature, Olwen... not so much.

Edited May 26, 2017 by DehNutCase

[Ice Dragon]

5 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Note: I test with +0s, since that's closer to what I face in the arena, as well as being marginally faster to input. (Since I don't have to click the 'set everything to +10' button.)

Since I'm almost always facing high merges, +10 opponents are always my worst-case scenario, and it's always a bleaker picture there because all units effectively have 4 more HP.

 

18 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Olwen and her horse partner fail to provide the 'default situation.' They provide better if more units on their team are horses, but worse if no other units are horses. The third horse doesn't have to pack fortify or hone, but it does have to be a horse to be buffed by Olwen and her partner, that's what I'm getting at. Fliers, armors, infantry and dragons don't get buffed by Olwen, meaning there would only be one unit who can provide the 'default' situation to half of your team. (Since units can't buff themselves.)

Hone Cav doesn't provide +4/+0 if an infantry is sitting next to the cavalry.

By this argument, the best third and fourth units to add to a 2-cavalry base are actually two fliers.

While a third cavalry unit does benefit more from the existing two units' buffs, it also has its negatives compared to a non-cavalry unit.

First off, a cavalry unit simply has the disadvantage of needing those buffs to barely exceed the stats on a non-cavalry unit with the same weapon. A non-cavalry unit with a single stat Hone buff is effectively equivalent to a cavalry unit with a Hone Cavalry buff, with the only exception being Litrblade cavalry.

Second, running exactly three cavalry units leads to awkward positioning problems. The single non-cavalry unit has trouble keeping up, and the cavalry units are forced to move in a blob of 3. In effect, this really means that the optimal team compositions are one of 2-2, 3 with a dancer, or 4 cavalry.

[DehNutCase]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

By this argument, the best third and fourth units to add to a 2-cavalry base are actually two fliers.

Two fliers would be better than two infantry, yeah, considering they have the same stats and better buffs---it's not like anyone else was going to buff those two anyway. That said, I don't see how 2 fliers would be better than 2 more horses when you have 2 horses already.

 

[MrSmokestack]

3 hours ago, Lyrai said:

Do you mean Leo's proccing QR / Savage Blow in the enemy phase kind of offensive, or a Blade tome Leo?
As for Eliwood, as I'm an Eliwood user myself, I agree his Durandal makes him the hardest hitting sword user of the bunch.

My Nino runs Fury anyway.

I meant -Blade Leo. I should have clarified that, thanks.

Oh don't worry, no harm done. I appreciated your input on Jam's question regardless.

Edited May 26, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

Two fliers would be better than two infantry, yeah, considering they have the same stats and better buffs---it's not like anyone else was going to buff those two anyway. That said, I don't see how 2 fliers would be better than 2 more horses when you have 2 horses already.

Two fliers has the obvious advantage of having the same stats as infantry with much better buffs. Two cavalry has the advantage of better availability of Litrblade, access to Brave magic, and higher mobility, which compensates for their lower stats. The disadvantage is more rigid positioning where you're stuck moving the cavalry together as a pair and the fliers together as a pair, and can't mix and match. On the other hand, which buffs you have on which units is always the same.

Four cavalry all with Hone Cavalry has the obvious advantage of being able to mix and match your pairs as needed. You get versatility and mobility as a trade-off for not being able to have Fortify Cavalry and having barely equivalent stats to single-buff infantry.

Four cavalry with half Hone Cavalry and half Fortify Cavalry have the obvious advantage of being able to have +6 to all stats on demand and having extremely powerful Litrblade users, but comes with more strict positioning and less versatility if you need to split into pairs.

I don't think any of these compositions is significantly better than the other two.