The Lucina of this game.

[IMCasual]

Clearly one of the reason why Awakening is so popular is because there are a lot of fan favored characters. But among these characters one particular stand out, of course I am talking about Lucina. Seeing the success of Lucina, they tried again with Azura in Fates. This time they pushed for her more. While she is a popular character she is nowhere near the juggernaut that is Lucina. If they wanna do it again, what could IS done for the people that disliked Lucina to like the Switch FE's "Lucina"? Or do you dislike IS for having bias for these characters and pushing these characters down to you? 

Edit: I should clarified, what I meant to create another "Lucina" is:

1- Created to be universal appealing

2- Prominent in the story/Leading character status 

3- Pushed by IS 

 

Edited March 12, 2017 by IMCasual

[Light Strategist]

Honestly, I feel that Fates took too much of what made Awakening successful and butchered it. Since Corrin was made the "Lord" but was also the Avatar, Azura basically was forced to have certain traits that Corrin didn't have from Robin's and Chrom's dynamic relationship. She has an opposite sex (to herself) offspring that has no possible hair colour variations. She's also apparently a Tactical genius for some reason when she has no apparent study of tactics behind her and basically coerces Corrin into most of the decisions that are made down the line.

She's not really like Lucina very much at all in that regard.

If Intelligent Systems want to make more characters like Lucina, I'm all for it, since Lucina seems to be a combination of Eirika and Lyn from what I've seen, as well as my reason for loving this franchise. I just don't like how Azura was presented since she basically took power away from the player and to the same extent, in my opinion, Corrin's character.

Yes, Azura had a lot to offer.

No, I don't think she was utilized as best as she could have been.

[The DanMan]

I think the fact that they tried to mimic Lucina's appeal with Azura only for reception to be much more muted means that there won't be one.

[Augestein]

I dislike the bias for characters on the account that I want different ones each time. The appeal of Lucina was probably more in the fact that she was an enigma in the trailers when we first saw her, she then is revealed to basically be "female Marth" in a world that actually *lost*. She actually has an interesting bit of lure behind her. Meanwhile Azura cannot have the crazy amount of intrigue that Lucina can on the account that Azura has no reason to be "mysterious" like Lucina did. Lucina was trying to not alter the timeline while fixing things to stop the future from occurring. Azura, even with plot curse, doesn't have a good enough reason for being "mysterious." "Traumatic past" doesn't really work here, because all things considered, it wasn't *that* bad and she just comes across as needlessly aloof. 

It's sort of like this: I like Marth, but I do NOT want a character to act exactly like Marth constantly as a lord. 

[Extrasolar]

Wait, Azura was their attempt at making a Lucina? Uh, I don't really see any similarities there at all. Lucina and Azura are different in personality and role within the game for the most part.

My biggest problem with Azura was that she was there, but you didn't find out exactly why she was relevant or what the purpose of her existence was until the very end of Revelation. Her very understated, quiet personality certainly didn't help that, and her most standout moments were the scenes where she sang (and because of the vocal performance more than the character herself).

I get they were trying to go for a "mysterious waif" character, but she just seemed so otherworldly and out of touch that I just couldn't get attached to her the same way I could get behind a young woman from a post-apocalyptic future desperately trying to change it, against all odds, so that she and her friends and family don't suffer.

I get that Azura's secrecy and mystery is given an in-story explanation in Revelation, but it still doesn't reverse the fact that I just didn't care much for her at all in both Birthright and Conquest. And then they reveal that she's got a familial connection to Corrin in another attempt at attaching the player to her... Eh. at this point, it was too little too late. I just...I could take her or leave her.

Her death scene at the end of Birthright and her slipping away unnoticed in Conquest was...badly done, imo. IS meant to set them up as huge tear-jerkers, but again, Azura failed to establish herself as a character I could get attached to, so a lot of the effect was lost on me. It was more of a "Why the hell is she vanishing into the aether?" than "Oh no, Azura is dead."

Mysterious and waifish characters can work, but they need something grounding them in the conflict to help the player get invested. Azura was embroiled in the conflict just because...she happened to be there.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Extrasolar

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

I like Azura a lot as a character. Married her all three routes and whatnot. But the story chapters don't do her justice.

I think part of why people like Lucina more than Azura is that, while Azura is present throughout the entire game and talks a lot more, her scenes and dialogue were not done well in story chapters. In Birthright and Conquest, when Azura talks, she doesn't really interact imo; she just says "we need to do this and that" most of the time. When there is a plot-important scene related to her, she either tells us nothing, or just a half-truth. While Revelation is supposed to basically be Azura's route, most of the time, important things are shown to us instead of told (which is actually good), but that just shafts Azura's importance again.

Compare this to Lucina. She appears and talks in far fewer scenes compared to Azura (partly because she doesn't join the party until much later), but when she does, she's always being important. She was secretive and distant when posing as Marth and before revealing her identity, but she also has many scenes with strong feels, such as when she tells Chrom her identity, and when she tries to kill Robin. These all left a lasting impression on many people.

Speaking of killing Robin, none of Azura's scenes actually change regardless of whether or not you married her. That was a bit lazy of IS imo. When your wife slips away to disappear into bubbles, you don't just go "huh, alright" and go party with your Nohrian buddies. You go looking for her. This is far from the important touch that Fates' story needs in the first place, but it's these little things that turn a game from a good one to a great one. It also definitely affects people's attachment to her character; if the game is trying to make me Corrin, but Corrin doesn't even care, why should I care?

Edited March 12, 2017 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Cute girls cosplaying as Marth really get me going.

But I don't think Lucina is something that they actively try to recreate. Lucina is more three dimensional character than character trope, and you'll never get far making imitations of the original. I'm having a hard time boiling down Azura to find explicit similarities though. Lucina and Azura both show up and clearly know things they shouldn't. But Azura just sort of gives up on her people while Lucina lived as an inspiration to her kingdom before the time warp. If they met each other, they'd probably find little common ground.

 

[Anacybele]

Lucina isn't really a main character or prominent in her game's story though. Most of her role is in her Marth disguise and when she isn't playable... Awakening's main characters are definitely Chrom and Robin. Lucina plays second fiddle.

I really don't know why Lucina is popular. Maybe it's her Marth cloney-ness in her design, or her time traveling or something. I don't want anymore Lucinas, I don't like her and think she's too boring and unoriginal.

We need more characters like Ike. I mean more lords that aren't nobles or royals. And more like Ephraim. Who aren't blue-haired sword wielders (Ephraim's hair color definitely leans more toward green). I also think we need a female lord that doesn't get eclipsed by a male. I don't know why IS insists that women need men to look good. They can do great on their own. Lyn had potential in her story, I just felt she was hampered too much by the tutorialness and her dropping out of importance entirely after that. She's just "there" in Eliwood's and Hector's stories.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Anacybele

[saisymbolic]

I personally think they shouldn't go out of their way to make a character fitting the role of a "Lucina." Instead of trying so hard to duplicate the success of a prior character, they should focus more on creating well-written characters that can stand on their own merits. Popularity is the last thing that should be taken into account when attempting to create a good character, in my opinion.

I feel that a lot of Fates' problems stemmed from this i.e. trying to recapture the success of Awakening. In the end, they were so focused on trying to do so, they completely neglected the other, more important story elements that could have made Fates the next best game in the series. Granted, the game apparently sold enough, and I did have my fun with Fates, but the number of missed opportunities and "WTF??//?/??" moments that are present really bring down the expectations some people have for this upcoming game.

[Dandy Druid]

Azura is also more bland than Lucina. Her personality isn't as interesting as the tomboyish, determined, fashion disaster that is Lucina. Lucina is more relatable than Azura was. It's like Azura had all the makings to be a popular character (singing scene, huge story involvement, etc.), but I don't feel like we really get to know her despite all her screentime.

[Anacybele]

Yeah, one of my biggest problems with Fates is the forced popular stuff. Bringing back three of the Awakening kids and cloning three of the first gen Awakening people, seriously? Wtf... If I want to see these characters again, I'll go play Awakening or hope for a sequel that includes them. Fates was meant to have no relation to other FE worlds, and then they shoehorn Awakening characters right into it. This is stupid. I wouldn't even want Ike to be thrown into a game this way. And this is coming from someone that also likes Inigo, Severa, Cordelia, and Gaius.

EDIT: At least Azura isn't a female version of an existing male character... Her design is her own look, not somebody else's. I thought she was better than Lucina character-wise too.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Anacybele

[Extrasolar]

Also agreeing on Fates trying way too hard to be Awakening. The hamfisted and odd way they shoved the children into Fates because the mechanic was popular back in Awakening is proof of that alone...but they missed the fact that the entire plot of Awakening, the bad future and trying to avert it, lends itself well to kids from the future, rather than the "Deeprealms" nonsense that they came up with. When Fates didn't even worldbuild enough to develop (or even name) the continent it was on, it's definitely questionable as to just how much they were trying to give this game its own identity.

I also disliked the returning characters...but at the very least, they gave a story reason why Inigo, Owain and Severa are in Fates world. Meanwhile Tharja and Gaius are "reincarnations"? What? Why not just have them be the same characters as well? It would be a lot less insulting.
 

1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

Lyn had potential in her story, I just felt she was hampered too much by the tutorialness and her dropping out of importance entirely after that. She's just "there" in Eliwood's and Hector's stories.

I feel like part of this was the posthumous writing. Lyn wasn't mentioned anywhere in Binding Blade because she wasn't created yet, and Caelin itself is part of Ostia. There's not a whole lot they honestly could have done with her as far as plot relevance past her own self-contained story and not leave people scratching their heads as to where Lyn was, or why, if she had more relevance, she wasn't being mentioned at all. But yeah, it's a real shame.

But yeah, 100% agree on more female lords that aren't shoved into the background by a male lord. Micaiah was almost this...until the spotlight stealing squad Greil Mercenaries showed up. I love those guys but damn, you guys had your game already!

Edited March 12, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Anacybele]

Just now, Extrasolar said:

I feel like part of this was the posthumous writing. Lyn wasn't mentioned anywhere in Binding Blade because she wasn't created yet, and Sacae itself is part of Ostia. There's not a whole lot they honestly could have done with her as far as plot relevance past her own self-contained story and not leave people scratching their heads as to where Lyn was, or why, if she had more relevance, she wasn't being mentioned at all. But yeah, it's a real shame.

But yeah, 100% agree on more female lords that aren't shoved into the background by a male lord. Micaiah was almost this...until the spotlight stealing squad Greil Mercenaries showed up. I love those guys but damn, you guys had your game already!

Yeah, I guess so, but then maybe they shouldn't have made Lyn.

And I know, right? As a big fan of Ike and his group and a hater of Micaiah, I do agree that they should've shared the spotlight more equally. I might have liked Micaiah more if this had been the case.

[Magical Glace]

21 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Sacae itself is part of Ostia.

Did you mean Caelin?  Sacae's a whole other country, and quite far from Ostia.

As for Lyn's relevance... yeah, I agree that it's likely due to her being created after FE6.  FE7 is meant to be a game about Roy and Lilina's fathers, both characters in 6 (though they were both relatively minor NPCs in 6 itself).  I do think they shouldn't have let that really hold her back so much.

I'd say the closest a female lord came to keeping the show is Eirika, actually.  If you don't pick Ephraim, he's still a main character for the last couple of chapters, but it's ultimately Eirika's story more than his on her route, from start to finish.  Except 5x, I guess.

[Augestein]

35 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, one of my biggest problems with Fates is the forced popular stuff. Bringing back three of the Awakening kids and cloning three of the first gen Awakening people, seriously? Wtf... If I want to see these characters again, I'll go play Awakening or hope for a sequel that includes them. Fates was meant to have no relation to other FE worlds, and then they shoehorn Awakening characters right into it. This is stupid. I wouldn't even want Ike to be thrown into a game this way. And this is coming from someone that also likes Inigo, Severa, Cordelia, and Gaius.

EDIT: At least Azura isn't a female version of an existing male character... Her design is her own look, not somebody else's. I thought she was better than Lucina character-wise too.

I honestly didn't mind the idea of the Awakening kids if they were used well with the Outerrealm gate. I mean they had already traveled time, dimension hopping at that point doesn't seem *too farfetched. The children being Awakening characters was just stupid though. Ike being in another game actually wouldn't bother me too much to be honest. Especially if they gave him a REASON he left the continent, Mist, his family, and didn't come back. If he got roped into helping someone else that had some serious issues, I'd be done for Ike appearing again, and this is coming from someone that doesn't like Ike. 

I'm not partial to Lucina or Azura, but Azura just rubs me the wrong way about her role in the plot. 

 

And yeah, female lords need to be treated with more respect. Eirika is the only one that gets that. She gets her own path from start to finish and Ephraim doesn't take over the story once he comes on the scene. 

Edited March 12, 2017 by Augestein

[Anacybele]

10 minutes ago, Augestein said:

I honestly didn't mind the idea of the Awakening kids if they were used well with the Outerrealm gate. I mean they had already traveled time, dimension hopping at that point doesn't seem *too farfetched. The children being Awakening characters was just stupid though. Ike being in another game actually wouldn't bother me too much to be honest. Especially if they gave him a REASON he left the continent, Mist, his family, and didn't come back. If he got roped into helping someone else that had some serious issues, I'd be done for Ike appearing again, and this is coming from someone that doesn't like Ike. 

I'm not partial to Lucina or Azura, but Azura just rubs me the wrong way about her role in the plot. 

 

And yeah, female lords need to be treated with more respect. Eirika is the only one that gets that. She gets her own path from start to finish and Ephraim doesn't take over the story once he comes on the scene. 

Yeah, I do think the return of those Awakening kids would've been done better if there was more story and Outrealm stuff behind it. As for Ike, yeah, that's pretty much what I did for him in my fanfic. He originally traveled away because of personal issues (this is a headcanon, RD didn't give any real reason for him to leave. >_>), but he met a new friend who got him to open up to her (she's the story's lord), and he decides to help her in a big situation that she gets roped into in return for her friendship. Ironically, this lord (whose name is Azura... But I made her waaaay before Fates was ever a thing) is a woman that thrives on the idea of independence, particularly from men, but she's not one to ignore someone who looks like they're having problems. She's a mercenary, so helping people is her thing. She saw that Ike looked down and asked him if he was okay and one thing led to another.

Eirika still had Ephraim sharing the spotlight in some way though, even if it's just a second optional path of the game. I mean a female lord that has NO male lords sharing the game with her. Meaning she is the only lord in the game. Well, unless she has another female lord with her. I'd be fine with that too.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Anacybele

[Lord Tullus]

I personally never enjoyed Azura or Lucina, but I see why people like her.  Trying to recreate any character based on their popularity that isn't a sequel or a direct reason to be there (like the Lazy Fan service of fate's awakening trio) is just poor, and they put too much hope and time into recreating appeal rather than trying to appeal in different ways with new characters.  Azura is completely forgettably in my eyes, aside from the good voice work in the localization.

As for female characters that don't piggyback off of a male character's spotlight, I'd say that it is very difficult to do.  When you think about it, there are VERY few FE games that have the main lords doing things on their own, without the "piggyback effect" either with duel lords, or plot important characters.  (The Jagens and advisers such as merlinus and Jagen don't count in my opinion.  Let me use a few examples: 

FE 1 and 11 had Princess Nyna, Path of Radiance had Queen/Princess Elincia. The games with duel/multiple protagonists are obvious, FE 8 and 7 and 13.  Binding Blade Had Guinivere, and To an extent, FE 4 had Julia. FE 3 and 5 are really the only ones that come to mind that give the protagonist time to shine and develop as a whole.  Trying to build a single character with little interaction or second or third "Crutch" is something that the series has little experience with.  

The reason Sacred stones worked with the crutch, is because it didn't feel like it was just the duel lords handeling things.  There were side characters like Innes and Duessel who's roles in the game were impactful, and had a part in the story, so the main lords weren't reduced to each other as a crutch.  And furthermore, Eirika and Ephraim worked well in the crutch department because their routes were split, and the minor characters would put in their effort.  More specifically, duessel in Ephraim's route, and Inness in Eirika's.  When they joined together, they had become more of a single entity, rather than two contrasting characters piggybacking off of each other.  This was made possible, in my opinion, because they were siblings who realized the same goal in the end, and had time to develop before the end of the game.  

Does this mean that we should have characters and protagonists that try to hold their own in a story without any kind of crutch and we should do so instantly?  No, I'm simply stating that it would be difficult for FE to do so, especially with a main Female lead, because it's been done with males in the past, and few FE protagonists rely on a crutch. 

I may be saying something completely stupid, but I think that FE should make it so that like in sacred stones, that the female lead is brought into the light first, and given more time to develop, or at least play the bigger role.    Maybe kill off the male crutch?  I've had a plot in my head for a while now, but I can't think of it in any way that a female lead could take the reigns of protagonist on her own.

[Extrasolar]

18 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Did you mean Caelin?  Sacae's a whole other country, and quite far from Ostia.

Oh, yup, my mistake. Typo. Thanks for catching it. Gonna go back and edit it.
 

15 minutes ago, Augestein said:

I honestly didn't mind the idea of the Awakening kids if they were used well with the Outerrealm gate. I mean they had already traveled time, dimension hopping at that point doesn't seem *too farfetched. The children being Awakening characters was just stupid though. Ike being in another game actually wouldn't bother me too much to be honest.

Same. I actually like the idea of the Outerrealm gate connecting all of the FE universes/worlds and its use as the explanation for why x reference or y reference is there, and I think their including three of the five Awakening characters for fanservice reasons was actually done pretty well (even If i dislike the idea to begin with) with the Outerrealm's existence and the DLC map explaining what the deal was...which is why it's baffling they went with the flimsy "they're sort of reincarnations or something" for Asugi and Rhajat. Like...you literally just did it better with the trio....



 

[Interdimensional Observer]

16 minutes ago, Augestein said:

I honestly didn't mind the idea of the Awakening kids if they were used well with the Outerrealm gate. I mean they had already traveled time, dimension hopping at that point doesn't seem *too farfetched.

I was thinking they could have been integrated in a lighthearted manner. At the end of the end of Awakening, the children characters hold hands and leap into the Outrealm Gate to leave this world now that the mission is accomplished for another world where they can begin anew or something. During the jump, something goes wrong and Inigo, Severa, and Owain get split from all the rest. Depending on who you ask (its split amongst the supports) what happened was either: Inigo put his hand on some girl's rear and got slapped/punched, Owain gets a little too over-the-top (magical jump into the infinity of worlds!), or, Severa gives some attitude (no reason). Ending up near the Dragon's Gate in Nohr about 1-3 years prior to the game's start, the trio get their bearings and decide to spend a little time in this world before departing once again to find their friends, as herculean a task as that will be.

[Slumber]

Don't try to recreate Lucina. Just do something new. My philosophy for the 3DS games(Awakening in particular) is that the more you keep in those games, and the less you bring forward into future games, the better. And I don't mean this as a slight against Awakening or Fates, since I think they'll look better in retrospect if they kind of remain unique. They're odd ducks in a lot of ways. Some people loved 'em, some people really didn't, and I think putting a wall around them and doing something new/different with the story-telling conventions and core game mechanics will make more people appreciate them. 

[Etrurian emperor]

On 12-3-2017 at 2:05 AM, Anacybele said:

I really don't know why Lucina is popular. Maybe it's her Marth cloney-ness in her design, or her time traveling or something. I don't want anymore Lucinas, I don't like her and think she's too boring and unoriginal.

 

I think that Lucina's popularity stems for there being reasons to like her while there isn't anything controversial enough about her to bring those positive traits down. There's little that could swing the popular perception of Lucina towards the negative end of the spectrum. She's a good unit no matter what you do, she's pretty without relying on the more shameless aspects of fanservice and none of her support have any slip ups that damaged her character.

But as for the comparisons...I never quite understood them. Lucina and Azura are both female and have an air of mystery about them but that's were the similarities end. Their personalities are nothing alike. Both are a little aloof but in different ways. Lucina is stoic but Azura's aloofness isn't stoicism, its being withdrawn and shy.

Their designs aren't alike either. Lucina's rather masculine clothing has no similarity with Azura's feminine and slightly exposed dress.

Their role isn't quite the same either. Lucina is portrayed as a fighter, both lore wise and as a unit while Azura is practically a non combatant. Lucina is more of a co lord to Chrom whereas Azura fills the role of the lord's adviser. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Etrurian emperor

[Anacybele]

48 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think that Lucina's popularity stems for there being reasons to like her while there isn't anything controversial enough about her to bring those positive traits down. There's little that could swing the popular perception of Lucina towards the negative end of the spectrum. She's a good unit no matter what you do, she's pretty without relying on the more shameless aspects of fanservice and none of her support have any slip ups that damaged her character.

Pretty is subjective and opinionated though. I personally find many other FE females to be far prettier than her and they're females who don't look sexualized or anything (and honestly, Lucina does look better than characters like Camilla and Charlotte, imo). But if other people think Lucina is pretty, well, that's them, I guess.

[IMCasual]

On 3/12/2017 at 0:45 AM, Slumber said:

Don't try to recreate Lucina. Just do something new. My philosophy for the 3DS games(Awakening in particular) is that the more you keep in those games, and the less you bring forward into future games, the better. And I don't mean this as a slight against Awakening or Fates, since I think they'll look better in retrospect if they kind of remain unique. They're odd ducks in a lot of ways. Some people loved 'em, some people really didn't, and I think putting a wall around them and doing something new/different with the story-telling conventions and core game mechanics will make more people appreciate them. 

This is my feeling too toward the Switch FE, what I want really a conventions breaking FE game similar to what Breath of Wild did to Zelda. FE in general is getting extreme stale with virtually no changes in gameplay since FE1. I felt too much is limited by the current style of FE and with the power of the Switch, IS has no excuses sticking to the old formula. The more daring the better. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by IMCasual

[De Geso]

On 3/11/2017 at 6:28 PM, IMCasual said:

Clearly one of the reason why Awakening is so popular is because there are a lot of fan favored characters. But among these characters one particular stand out, of course I am talking about Lucina. Seeing the success of Lucina, they tried again with Azura in Fates. This time they pushed for her more. While she is a popular character she is nowhere near the juggernaut that is Lucina. If they wanna do it again, what could IS done for the people that disliked Lucina to like the Switch FE's "Lucina"? Or do you dislike IS for having bias for these characters and pushing these characters down to you? 

Edit: I should clarified, what I meant to create another "Lucina" is:

1- Created to be universal appealing

2- Prominent in the story/Leading character status 

3- Pushed by IS 

 

1 - I don't think Lucina was created with universal appeal in mind, it just worked well in her favor that she ended up being hugely popular. 

Which is where Azura fell short. She was made to be everyone's favorite character...which never works. Ever. 

[smash-brethren]

I agree with a lot of people here that the mentality IS had while making the game was a big part of it's downfall. When considering their lack of major financial success, IS decided that awakening would probably be the last FE game, and wanted to make it the best. So they drew upon aspects of all of the previous installments (ex children from fe4, world map from gaiden, same universe as marths games) in addition to adding an original flavor with story and characters. It felt like they were earnestly trying to make the most universally appealing FE, using the best of each game, to if not save the series, go out with a bang. Whereas when making fates they only really drew inspiration from awakening, and didn't put as much thoughts into things like character interaction and development. Part of the reason I feel none of fates cast had the mass appeal of lucina were because they didn't have a good mix of plot relevance, serious personality traits/character development, and endearing traits. I think one big flub they made with Azura was the lack of interaction between her and the siblings outside of supports. For example you'd think she'd be as conflicted with Corrin over siding with or against one family, but we never experience family drama from her end (er....keep in mind I've only played BR and CQ so if I'm missing something from R im sorry). Nobody really has a big reaction to her death either, not Corrin or the siblings. Everyone in awakening had something to say if robin sacrificed themselves but Azura? Nah.