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What do you think about the reclass feature?


Extrasolar
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Do you like the reclass feature?  

60 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you like the reclass feature?

    • Yep, it's cool.
      35
    • Nope, not at all.
      13
    • I'm on the fence about it.
      12
  2. 2. Do you think introducing reclass was a good thing for the Fire Emblem series?

    • Yes!
      39
    • Nope.
      11
    • Meh. I ignore it either way.
      10
  3. 3. Do you want to see the ability to reclass in future games?

    • Yes, I'd like it to be included.
      33
    • No, thanks. Don't include it.
      13
    • I'm okay if they go either way.
      14
  4. 4. Which of the games with reclass is your favorite version of reclass?

    • Shadow Dragon/New Mystery of the Emblem
      14
    • Awakening
      8
    • Fates
      38


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So Shadow Dragon introduced a huge new mechanic in the reclass feature, which let characters switch classes.

So what do you think in general about the reclass feature? Do you like it or not, and why? Do you tend to use it or ignore it and why? Do you think introducing the mechanic was a good thing/good design decision for the series as a whole, or a bad one? And of all the games with reclass, which game has your favorite version of it and why?

Personally, I'm not a fan of reclass. To me, a lot of a unit's personality is contained within their starting class. Like, Soren is Soren partly because he's a wind mage/wind sage, and turning him into (for example) a myrmidon...it just wouldn't feel right, even if it would bolster his strength growth mechanically. Not to mention, I see a unit's class as an investment of time, study and energy into a certain field. For example, a cavalier who's trained for years for mounted combat...and then they can suddenly jump right into casting as a mage or a bishop. Sure, they start with E ranks in everything, but, eh, the idea that they can just jump right into battle never having picked up a tome/staff/lance/sword/axe before bothers me.

Speaking purely mechanically, I know a lot of people like using it to 'edit' the stats of a unit as they see fit, which I'm not the biggest fan of. Each unit has his or her strengths and weaknesses, and the gameplay is based around utilizing what you have and your resources rather than simply changing them. I know that it helped out certain supbar/'bad' characters so that they saw some use, and more often helped equalize the playing field between units, but...eh, I'm just not really feeling it. We've always had units that were superior to others in various ways

I ignored it completely in Shadow Dragon, and didn't use it in Awakening, and used it only sparingly in Fates (and all I did was change Azama to an Apothecary after I realized how amazing his strength growth is).

How about you guys?

Edited by Extrasolar
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I pretty much agree with you completely, so I don't have a whole lot to add.

I picked SD as my "favorite", because while there is re-classing, there are no skills that makes re-classing extra stupid. Skills themselves are extra stupid in the past few games, and honestly re-classing/support min-maxing/skill grinding are my least favorite things about FE, and the main reason I'm not as fond of the newer ones. Complexity should not exist for complexities sake.

I choose to ignore all of that stuff the best that I can.

Edited by ChibiToastExplosion
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I don't like reclassing.

 

Firstly, I like the characters starting/original class fine enough. 

Secondly, I hate to choose which class would fit better for units, and then it takes me a millenia on whether to decide a unit should be a Myrmidon or Cavalier.

For me, reclassing sucks.

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Going off of which is my "favorite" version of reclass (I don't like any, to be honest), I'd definitely give it to Fates. Not only were options limited, but most of the time they made sense based on the unit in question's starting class and/or story through the use of Heart Seals, Friendship Seals and Partner Seals; for example, I'm okay with Takumi being able to reclass into a samurai, when he was previously a swordfighter who gave it up for a bow so that he wouldn't be in Ryoma's shadow. Plus, the nod of his samurai outfit being inspired by Sumeragi is pretty cool too.

Shadow Dragon/New Mystery throwing logic to the wind and saying "sure, your cavalier can become a priest despite never showing any aptitude or interest in the profession before"...yeah, wasn't a fan.

Plus, it may be a minor thing to some people, but it annoys me how the portraits always stay the same no matter what the class is. Like, Cain's portrait by default has him wearing his trademark red cavalier armor...and then if you reclass him to priest, his sprite isn't updated. Blah. Inconsistencies. I know it would be hassle to draw a Cain portrait for every available class, but dammit, I want consistency! :l
 

41 minutes ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

and honestly re-classing/support min-maxing/skill grinding are my least favorite things about FE, and the main reason I'm not as fond of the newer ones. Complexity should not exist for complexities sake.

I feel you on this one. I miss the simpler days... When a conversation about a raising/using a unit wasn't "just reclass them into x and and then reclass them into y."

Edited by Extrasolar
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16 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Could you...expand on this? For the purposes of the thread discussion?

Sure.

 

The series is finally starting to embrace it's RPG elements in a new and exciting way. Characters can now be whatever class the player wants, allowing them to minmax in new and exciting ways, which also adds in a lot of replayability to the games, as you now have more of an incentive to replay the game and give a character a whole new skillset.

 

It's almost as great as the children mechanic, IMO.

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I enjoy reclassing. It's not perfect, but it's fun to mess around with. The main thing I like about is that it's entirely optional. You never have to reclass. It's just something for fun, and in some cases challenge.

While I prefer the Fates style, there are a few stupid things. I dislike how long it takes to get access to more than a few Heart Seals. I also feel they could've given the classes out better, but most make at least some sort of sense, and I like how S and A+-Support worked with sharing classes as well.

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6 minutes ago, Dragonage2ftw said:

Sure.

 

The series is finally starting to embrace it's RPG elements in a new and exciting way. Characters can now be whatever class the player wants, allowing them to minmax in new and exciting ways, which also adds in a lot of replayability to the games, as you now have more of an incentive to replay the game and give a character a whole new skillset.

 

It's almost as great as the children mechanic, IMO.

I... Honestly kind of agree with this. It's an interesting dynamic for making characters a bit different outside of "myrmidon with MORE SPEED" or "I have 10% more res growth which you'll never even notice under any sane circumstances." 

The children are a good mechanic, even if from the story they are terrible. 

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18 minutes ago, Dragonage2ftw said:

Characters can now be whatever class the player wants, allowing them to minmax in new and exciting ways, which also adds in a lot of replayability to the games, as you now have more of an incentive to replay the game and give a character a whole new skillset.

From this point of view, though, don't characters lose what's unique about them with this approach? What set FE apart from other strategy games in the first place was the fact that all of your units were unique in stats and appearance. When your character can be "anything you want" or do anything you want, what's the purpose of having a unique character in the first place?

Not to mention, why bother giving the characters a starting class if it's not going to mean anything in the long run? Might as well go with classless, nameless units that you can customize to your benefit...and that would be a shame, because that wouldn't be the unique FE that I love and what set it apart.
 

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I really don't like it and hardly use it at all. My thoughts on it pretty much line up with OP, I feel like it takes away from the characters and just leads to a lot of min-maxing which I am not fond of.

What I do like is branching promotions though and I wouldn't mind this being expanded on. Like let me promote a unit to any class within their "type", maybe have their base class even reflect on it. Like make clerics/mages/shaman be able to promote into any promoted magic based class, but always keep their base weapon type + whatever is new. Or keep it with the normal branch where you have two options, but bring back third tiers (or a zero tier) to expand on the branches.

I just feel like often the reclassing feels arbitrary and the sets doesn't always make much sense. I'd probably feel better about it if it was stricter, which is probably why the version I liked best was Fates system, even if I didn't really use it. 

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8 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

From this point of view, though, don't characters lose what's unique about them with this approach? What set FE apart from other strategy games in the first place was the fact that all of your units were unique in stats and appearance. When your character can be "anything you want" or do anything you want, what's the purpose of having a unique character in the first place?

On my very first play through of FE ever (7), I let Sain die. I re-started eventually, because damn if having two mounties isn't nice as hell, and didn't Dorcas kinda blow ass. I guess in modern FE I could just re-class Dorcas to be a social knight and fix just about everything wrong with him, right?

I didn't just lose Sain, I lost a social knight. And I couldn't make up my bad play by pulling a scrub off the bench to make more social knights. If I lost Cherche in early game Awakening, I could just re-class Lon-qu or Panne or hell the avatar and just have wyverns for days. Some like that, and I can see why that accessibility is nice, but where is the punishment in a strategy (first) game?

I do want to say that I'm a huge fan of branching promotions, because that's choice I can get behind. But once you pick, you stick with it.

Edited by ChibiToastExplosion
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30 minutes ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

I re-started eventually, because damn if having two mounties isn't nice as hell, and didn't Dorcas kinda blow ass. I guess in modern FE I could just re-class Dorcas to be a social knight and fix just about everything wrong with him, right?

Yeah, I actually like my units to have weaknesses (crazy as that sounds) that can't be fixed completely - and that's a big part of the "strategy" aspect of the game as well. Part of what endears me to a unit and makes them stand out in my mind isn't just what they're good at and when they're out there kicking ass, but what they're bad at and when they get destroyed on the battlefield themselves.

I mean, I'll always remember Soren for his horribad strength growth meaning that you stuck with the basic Wind tome with him through POR or else his AS went to shit, or Xander's pitiful resistance meaning that anytime a mage got the drop on him, he was screwed.

I feel like it's more satisfying when you triumph using the not-perfect units that you have, whether then just manipulating stats to make them as close to perfect as you can.

30 minutes ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

Some like that, and I can see why that accessibility is nice, but where is the punishment in a strategy (first) game?

Agreed with this too. I mentioned resource management back in the OP being a big part of FE imo; you only get x cavaliers, x mages, and x armor knights to work with, with a limited amount of experience to make each one work. Just creating more is a cheap way to get past this limitation in my opinion.

36 minutes ago, Eleanore said:

What I do like is branching promotions though and I wouldn't mind this being expanded on. Like let me promote a unit to any class within their "type", maybe have their base class even reflect on it. Like make clerics/mages/shaman be able to promote into any promoted magic based class, but always keep their base weapon type + whatever is new.

Agreed on this point. Branching promotions need to be a bigger thing in FE. They always make more sense for physical units - a cavalier could easily become a holy knight (Paladin) and resistance tank, or a regular defensive knight (Great Knight), and there's not a drastic change there.

Though...it is a little odd to have a dark mage promoting to a bishop, just lorewise. I can see a priest/cleric turning into a sage or a mage turning into a bishop...even though the latter would access to anima magic on the way, while a priest doesn't lose any weapon types, since sages can use staves as well. Archanea had a lot of overlap between the two, though...

Edited by Extrasolar
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I didn't like it at first, mainly because reclassing was terribly in FE11/12, but I really like it now and hope it sticks around the way it's done in Fates. Maybe make it a bit more limited (no way of getting infinite seals until post-game), but I do like the option of being able to try new things with the characters.

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1 minute ago, Extrasolar said:

Yeah, I actually like my units to have weaknesses (crazy as that sounds) that can't be fixed completely - and that's a big part of the "strategy" aspect of the game as well. Part of what endears me to a unit and makes them stand out in my mind isn't just what they're good at and when they're out there kicking ass, but what they're bad at and when they get destroyed on the battlefield themselves.

I mean, I'll always remember Soren for his horribad strength growth meaning that you stuck with the basic Wind tome with him through POR or else his AS went to shit, or Xander's pitiful resistance meaning that anytime a mage got the drop on him, he was screwed.

I feel like it's more satisfying when you triumph using the not-perfect units that you have, whether then just manipulating stats to make them as close to perfect as you can.

I prefer reclass because it allows for some extra tidbits about the character. IE, a character  used to work in the church when they  were a kid, but as they got older, they went into a different vocation, but were still a follower of the religion. Thus the  reclass options are cavalier and cleric. Versus their good old pal red social knight doesn't believe in god and was raised on the streets before someone acknowledged that he was a good fighter and helped him clean up his act. Thus he can reclass to thief because even if he turned away from being one, that doesn't mean that he doesn't know how to do it. Take someone like Selena, she has Pegasus Knight as her reclass, which is because she knows how to fight on a Pegasus, she just chooses not to. Thus, you can make the red and green social knights have more differences between them aside from "this social knight has slightly higher speed versus this one having slightly higher power but otherwise they are virtually the same."  The best part is that you don't have to use reclass if you don't want to. Combine personal skills, and even if Ryoma and Hana had the same exact stats, their reclass options and personal skills would make them different units. For instance, Ryoma can't get Shrine Maiden class outside of Corrin, so you'd have to make your Corrin be a SM to get him CounterMagic (outside of buying skills which isn't quite the same thing here). 

And it'd be hilarious to be able to change Soren into a Paladin to see him use magical weapons while riding a horse and procing adept... It'd also be fun and rewarding for a person dedicated enough to try. 

You still get that here. I worked hard to make my Felicia a competent Hero one playthrough. It was highly rewarding. Just in a different way. 

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I'm not a fan of it. For a lot of characters their identity is tied in some form to their class. Most mounted units have a tight bond with their mount so its weird to have them fight without it and with mages being generally children, skinny teenagers or the elderly it wouldn't fit for most of them to swing weapons around.

I can tolerate it when the reclass options are strictly regulated in order that the new classes still fit the personality of the units involved. 

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I don't like it. There are a lot of tweaks they could make to make it less obtrusive, though:

- There needs to be stricter limitations on how classes affect growth rates. I always felt like a character's growth rates reflected their character, with characters being explained as slow and strong being slow and strong. Effie's supposed to be a bulky, ripped, wall of meat. Her main stat is strength, but by default, her second class is the Troubadour. Suddenly, her speed become her main stat, with her luck being very high and her skill being about the same as her strength, but people keep mentioning how ripped and strong she it, while saying nothing about her speed, skill or luck. Similarly, Arthur's whole gimmick is how unlucky he is, with the lowest base growth in the whole game. But as a Cavalier, he gets a Luck boost because the Cavalier/Paladin classes are the luckiest normal class in the game, and while his Luck won't be anything worth writing home about, it becomes much better than the joke that his persona is based around. These kinds of things just seem really off for characters, and on top of this, this also undermines the roles that each character is built for from a gameplay perspective.

- Continuing off of that last point, if you're going to make characters be able to be multiple classes, give the characters class sets that make sense. Why in the world does Effie have Troubadour as her secondary class? Any use you could get out of her will be very circumstantial. She has 0 Magic growth, and won't be able to make any use of her Strength growth. It's dumb, and similarly dissonant with the writing. Really liking Elise is not a good motivation for this incredibly strong woman to want to be something that doesn't utilize the strength she's so proud of and forces her to be in the back, healing.

- No taking classes from other characters.

- No being able to take skills from other classes.

Of the ones that have done it, SD/NM did it best(SD put way more emphasis on class growths, so it falls into that first point I made, but NM buffed character growths so that class growths didn't mean quite as much), even though it's clearly the version that had the least amount of effort put into it. Even then, its main purpose is to round out bad stats, which is way more tedious and just breaks the flow of the game. As it stands, I don't think any games have done it well. Awakening's probably the worst, with SD/NM being the best, and Fates in between. If they could come up with a good way to implement it, I'd be fine, but this is Fire Emblem. It's inherently more structured than other SRPGs like Disgaea and FFT, where reclassing actually makes sense in those games.

Oh, and characters not getting unique battle sprites when they reclass is always going to bother me.

Edited by Slumber
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2 hours ago, Augestein said:

prefer reclass because it allows for some extra tidbits about the character. IE, a character  used to work in the church when they  were a kid, but as they got older, they went into a different vocation, but were still a follower of the religion. Thus the  reclass options are cavalier and cleric. Versus their good old pal red social knight doesn't believe in god and was raised on the streets before someone acknowledged that he was a good fighter and helped him clean up his act. Thus he can reclass to thief because even if he turned away from being one, that doesn't mean that he doesn't know how to do it. Take someone like Selena, she has Pegasus Knight as her reclass, which is because she knows how to fight on a Pegasus, she just chooses not to.

Yeah, I can get behind reclass options like that, but about that, you can't have every character have once been another class in the backstory, or any character knowing or having experience in another class. Someone like Takumi (former swordmaster) and your example of Selena would be the outliers, because you'd start stretching the suspension of disbelief if reclass was explained this way for every character (Oh, you're saying the gentle, kind cleric actually has a dark and troubled past, which is why you can reclass him into thief? Another one? Eugh....)

I mean, I can see how it could be fun to turn one character into something totally different (and with it being a challenge along the way), but there's too many logical fallacies and stuff that just doesn't plain make sense for me to be okay with it. If you're all about gameplay, though, I guess it's whatever.

2 hours ago, Augestein said:

And it'd be hilarious to be able to change Soren into a Paladin to see him use magical weapons while riding a horse and procing adept... It'd also be fun and rewarding for a person dedicated enough to try. 

I dunno, just based on Soren's awful strength and low defense, I see it as the game saying "this guy is not definitely hardy enough for the use of physical weapons due to his dire lack of muscle strength and his inability at taking physical hits, and what have you." His speed is good (in POR...damn RD mage speed nerfs), so if anything, he's be agile but incredibly flimsy and weak. I just can't see paladin working as a logical option for him. Not to mention, in-story he's always got his nose in a book, studying or composing strategies. Not a guy who works out all that much.

2 hours ago, Augestein said:

Thus, you can make the red and green social knights have more differences between them aside from "this social knight has slightly higher speed versus this one having slightly higher power but otherwise they are virtually the same."

Imo that's all the difference in stats I need between units, but there's often a few smaller things (Tormod having Celerity because he's more athletic than a usual mage, due to being raised by laguz, for example). They're both cavaliers for a story reason, and being cavaliers is important to both of them. I mean, you can't just have Geoffrey dropping being a cavalier in favor of being a myrmidon, or something. The guy's married to the job!

And of course, in the series, they always have contrasting personalities; Red Cavalier is passionate and serious, while Green is relaxed and easygoing.

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Most mounted units have a tight bond with their mount so its weird to have them fight without it and with mages being generally children, skinny teenagers or the elderly it wouldn't fit for most of them to swing weapons around.

Yeah, these are good points too (and this is why I dislike reclassing/promotions that gets rid of a mounted unit's mount for another, I discussed that back in that mount change topic). Not every mage can be Leo, who's toned as a mage who can use swords too.

Edited by Extrasolar
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I love reclass personally. It adds a lot of replay value. It allows for some characters to beside more useful. It allows for different strategies. Lot of things I really like about it. I really want to see it continue in the series.

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I feel like "I don't care about it at all" should be changed to "I don't mind either way" for question 3 since it sounds like another way of saying no to me.

I wasn't a fan of reclassing in FE11. I remember thinking to myself how cool it would be to play a Fire Emblem game with whatever units I like, but having limitations on how many of each class you can have in the army was too obtrusive. I don't care to know how well Gordon can perform as a cavalier if I must make Cain an archer in the process. And the one unit type I would want to reclass for most maps, thieves, can't be reclassed.

As for the 3DS titles, I enjoyed the reclass-centric character progression, particularly in Fates where internal levels don't get dropped to 1. As far as making the game too easy for yourself, I'm generally of the opinion that if your game has RPG mechanics, than the player should be allowed to grind the mechanics to their heart's content even if they break the game. If this were a multiplayer game, then it would surely alienate players that don't have a lot of game time to spend on grinding. But PvP isn't and never was central to this series. Also, you don't need to grab other class skills just to beat the game. Be like myself and most other players where you didn't understand how reclassing worked at first and beat the game with everybody's default classes.

With regard to changing a character's "personality" with reclassing, I don't really worry. Especially when developers can come up with some genius reclass options for characters based on their personality like making Kellam a thief. I like Corrin having to A rank support characters to earn their classes (as opposed to having a base ability to become everything at all times). I wish they'd apply that to other characters to open up their alternate classes. Like if Takumi was only an archer until completing the support with Ryoma, then he earns samurai. And Kjelle gets cavalier only when learning to ride a horse from her mother. Paralogues can be another great way for inspiring characters to earn new classes, rather than paralogues being strictly there for recruiting new units. This all sounds like a lot of work, but I'm just making a point that reclassing can be tied into the narrative, and that's a great avenue for evolving the concept.

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39 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Yeah, I can get behind reclass options like that, but about that, you can't have every character have once been another class in the backstory, or any character knowing or having experience in another class. Someone like Takumi (former swordmaster) and your example of Selena would be the outliers, because you'd start stretching the suspension of disbelief if reclass was explained this way for every character (Oh, you're saying the gentle, kind cleric actually has a dark and troubled past, which is why you can reclass him into thief? Another one? Eugh....)

I mean, I can see how it could be fun to turn one character into something totally different (and with it being a challenge along the way), but there's too many logical fallacies and stuff that just doesn't plain make sense for me to be okay with it. If you're all about gameplay, though, I guess it's whatever.

But it doesn't have to be necessarily though. That's the beauty of it. Sometimes people fancy themselves as trying different occupations. Look at it this way: let's take Effie. She has Troubadour and Knight. Knights are known for defending people and making sure that they are protected, and this fits her personality to a tee. Well then, what about Troubadour? How does that fit? Well, Troubadours heal people and save lives. They stop people from dying. A Troubadour can protect a person too, it can prevent them from dying. Not necessarily with their body, but through their efforts. So some people can still have their reclass option be based upon their base personality. 

Even storywise it still works. Ryoma is a samurai, what's his other class? Sky Knight, oh, so that's where Azura, Hinoka, and Sakura get it from. Or Shiro IS a spear master because he knows that spears are better versus katana's. It doesn't have to be for everyone but it works when it does. 

45 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I dunno, just based on Soren's awful strength and low defense, I see it as the game saying "this guy is not definitely hardy enough for the use of physical weapons due to his dire lack of muscle strength and his inability at taking physical hits, and what have you." His speed is good (in POR...damn RD mage speed nerfs), so if anything, he's be agile but incredibly flimsy and weak. I just can't see paladin working as a logical option for him. Not to mention, in-story he's always got his nose in a book, studying or composing strategies. Not a guy who works out all that much.

The point was is that they can be fun even when they are crazy. In terms of personality, I can see Soren being a thief as a reclass if he were to have one. Simply put because he's lived alone for so long and without help that I'd wager he would admittedly be able to pick locks. Someone like Sothe in RD I could see being able to become a swordmaster (since there's no mercenary class) since he'd want to emulate Ike. Little things like that. 

 

48 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Imo that's all the difference in stats I need between units, but there's often a few smaller things (Tormod having Celerity because he's more athletic than a usual mage, due to being raised by laguz, for example). They're both Cavaliers for a story reason, and being cavaliers is important to both of them. I mean, you can't just have Geoffrey dropping being a Cavalier in favor of being a myrmidon, or something. The guy's married to the job!

And of course, in this game, they always have contrasting personalities; Red Cavalier is passionate and serious, while Green is relaxed and easygoing.

I disagree. The social knights have so little differences most of the time that they may as well be the same unit. With the "Speed" one usually always being worse than the power one because the power one generally has *enough* speed and there's not much -- if anything the speed one can double that the power one can't. Except there's one thing you miss here. When Geoffrey hiding out, he posed as a merchant, and no one was any the wiser, which means that he's a decent merchant. If the merchant class remained, he could really be a reclass to that, and even then, he could reclass from a cavalier class to a knight class. Which would mean that his reclass options would be General, Great Knight and Paladin. Fitting for a man of his caliber. 

As for the mages, only their skills mattered. That's nice and all, but reclassing added even more to that. 

Which is... Barely anything from a gameplay perspective. I don't have a problem with having both. Especially when Reclass is so easily ignored. 

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5 hours ago, Slumber said:

- No taking classes from other characters.

- No being able to take skills from other classes.

That's actually one of the things I like the most about Fates' reclass system. It definitely opens up customization options that weren't possible in previous titles. Whether if its giving magic users a magic class they don't normally have access to. (Sakura definitely likes being a Strategist, for starters.) And same can be said for melee units that don't have much class options. (Effie likes not being a Knight/General, and wants either a mount or a higher Str cap.) And some of the results can be a bit fun. (Ryoma as a Paladin? Yes please.) And taking skills from other classes definitely helps your units become stronger. Camilla for one likes having the Sol and HP +5 skills to bolster her durability, and she can't get either without the Fighter class.

Edited by Just call me AL
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I don't use it often, and when I do it's generally for skill collection. Like you, I generally find that a character's identity is tied to their class. I'm more okay with it when the other classes share a weapon type (if only because dropping to E-rank weapons fucking sucks) such as reclassing Caeldori or Shirointo a Weapon Master. Sometimes it's fun to take advantage of, however, such as in the case of a unit whose growths would work better on other classes.

My final verdict is...keep it in. I won't use it a lot but options are nice. I would like it if a character's reclass options were better thought out though (giving pure magic classes to pure physical characters is a waste, for example).

You might want to reword your poll options. They sound like BIG YES, BIG NO and small no. The 3rd option should be more like "It's good and bad"

Edited by NekoKnight
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