Do you think Echoes will bridge the rift between old and new fans

[The DanMan]

1 minute ago, Commander Xelon said:

No. I'm not. By the way, I didn't quite derail the topic, I was explaining why this ain't going to bridge a thing.

...Welp. I thought this was the sales topic.

[Tolvir]

11 hours ago, Jedi said:

They look pretty 1 to 1 from what we've seen in the few videos and screenshots, so we'll see. 

This map doesn't show why people tend to dislike the terrain, but theres a graveyard you fight in where the gravestones give a massive amount of avoid for you and the foes, but they'll probably tweek that at least.

From what I have noticed, the maps that are still the same are mostly skirmish maps, and then a few others like the very first one. Other than that one of them looks like a new map, specifically one of the Celica ones.

 

Kind of hoping they are really revamping some of the maps though. I tried playing Gaiden, and the map design was way too boring for me. There was nothing overly special, and it was just empty and tedious most of the time. First time in a Fire Emblem game that I actually didnt want to get into a fight.

[Kaze]

6 hours ago, Eleanore said:

Dear God, nothing annoys me more than this. Fates was very flawed in its localisation, but the extremes some people go with this translation thing just bugs the hell out of me. I don't know why I subject myself to it honestly, and I should probably be smart like you and just block the tag around release. Pretty sure I was following you on tumblr though (you use the same name, right? cool cosplays?), and the way you handled all the negativity was really impressive.

Heh. Yeah, I use the same name on tumblr (and just about everything online) and it was a struggle to handle all the negativity that Fates faced because it was all the same thing. People complaining about the name changes, voice actors, etc. I was just glad when it slowed down and people stopped being as negative. I still don't go on the Fire Emblem tags on tumblr regardless, though.

[Extrasolar]

Gonna echo what everyone else here says and say probably not. Well, the issue here is that there are different types of "old fans" and "new fans," as someone was saying before. There are the elitist old fans who hate everything new just for not being the same games in the earlier series, and the new fans who cling to the mechanics of the newer series and refuse to try anything else. Then there are the people in the middle or who lean slightly to either side; I prefer the older games from a writing and story standpoint a lot of the time, personally, but I like a lot of the new mechanics introduced in the newer ones and some of the characters too.

There's not gonna be much pleasing either extreme side, as it seems. People are stubborn, especially when it comes to thinks they like and things that they like being changed or modified. They get possessive, and take things more personal because these are things close to them. I can't exactly fault them for that, but I wish people would step back and have more perspective every now and then.

27 minutes ago, KazeNinja17 said:

Heh. Yeah, I use the same name on tumblr (and just about everything online) and it was a struggle to handle all the negativity that Fates faced because it was all the same thing. People complaining about the name changes, voice actors, etc.

I am genuinely curious and confused about why the Fates localization has the most vitriol I've seen against any localized anything since 4Kids. I mean, can someone enlighten me on what the deal is? Stuff has been changed in localization since day one (including stuff in FE), and nobody complains about how Blazing Blade's localization is utter trash that spits in the face of the original, or something. I'm just...confused.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Kaze]

Just now, Extrasolar said:

I am genuinely curious and confused about why the Fates localization has the most vitriol I've seen against any localized anything since 4Kids. I mean, can someone enlighten me on what the deal is? Stuff has been changed in localization since day one (including stuff in FE), and nobody complains about how Blazing Blade's localization is utter trash that spits in the face of the original, or something. I'm just...confused.

This is something that confuses me as well. Part of me thinks it's mostly because of how some aspects of Fates were handled (i.e. the My Room, Soleil's support (blown out of proportion by Kotaku and tumblr), the way some supports were rewritten (Saizo and Beruka's being ...), and just overall writing. A lot of people seem to feel that Fates was poorly written. (It's not the best in terms of writing, but certainly not the worst either)

[The DanMan]

8 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I am genuinely curious and confused about why the Fates localization has the most vitriol I've seen against any localized anything since 4Kids. I mean, can someone enlighten me on what the deal is? Stuff has been changed in localization since day one (including stuff in FE), and nobody complains about how Blazing Blade's localization is utter trash that spits in the face of the original, or something. I'm just...confused.

 

5 minutes ago, KazeNinja17 said:

This is something that confuses me as well. Part of me thinks it's mostly because of how some aspects of Fates were handled (i.e. the My Room, Soleil's support (blown out of proportion by Kotaku and tumblr), the way some supports were rewritten (Saizo and Beruka's being ...), and just overall writing. A lot of people seem to feel that Fates was poorly written. (It's not the best in terms of writing, but certainly not the worst either)

From what I can deduce, Influx of new fans + lack of awareness of Awakening's localization issues (as well as other games' in the series) + My Room controversy pissing "purists" off + other companies going more pandery routes (Atlus and its cringey practice of keeping all honorifics intact in Persona). It was really the perfect storm.

Edited March 17, 2017 by The DanMan

[Extrasolar]

8 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

 

From what I can deduce, Influx of new fans + lack of awareness of Awakening's localization issues (as well as other games' in the series) + My Room controversy pissing "purists" off + other companies going more pandery routes (Persona and its cringey practice of keeping all honorifics intact). It was really the perfect storm.

Persona and stuff isn't pandery... They're Japanese characters living in Japan using honorifics, like in real life. Why do people think that? I'll never understand...

I mean, if you had them leaving honorifics intact in like Attack of Titan, yeah, that doesn't make sense, because it's not a Japanese setting and Japanese characters...

But sigh... Sometimes I think that the internet giving us access to fan translations/translators gives us more headaches when the localization comes in, so it gives people who don't understand the purpose of localization can complain and whine about not getting a full-scale copy and paste of a Japanese game made for a Japanese audience, even when changes are necessary for the game to flow for a non-Japanese one. Just...argh...

13 minutes ago, KazeNinja17 said:

This is something that confuses me as well. Part of me thinks it's mostly because of how some aspects of Fates were handled (i.e. the My Room, Soleil's support (blown out of proportion by Kotaku and tumblr), the way some supports were rewritten (Saizo and Beruka's being ...), and just overall writing. A lot of people seem to feel that Fates was poorly written. (It's not the best in terms of writing, but certainly not the worst either)

But a lot of Fates' writing issues stem from the original game itself though

plus Soleil's character trope isn't a thing in the west and is potentially offensive if they didn't change it - have you read her original supports with Forrest? cringe - she comes off like a pushy and invasive asshole for the most part

But yeah, I can see why something like Saizo/Beruka being rewritten to be a joke on both of them being quiet could be upsetting. Not sure why Treehouse went that route, considering Fates already has plenty of comedy in other supports...

I almost feel like going back, compiling a list of all the changes in earlier games, and saying, "Each time you feel the need to complain about Fates' localization, you need to complain about every localization ever, because we've always had things changed. Just...learn Japanese and import the original game, then. That's the only way you'll be satisfied." Except they'd just complain more and ignore it.

alright partially derailing with all this talk, rant over

Edited March 17, 2017 by Extrasolar

[The DanMan]

2 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Persona and stuff isn't pandery... They're Japanese characters living in Japan using honorifics, like in real life. Why do people think that? I'll never understand...

I mean, if you had them leaving honorifics intact in like Attack of Titan, yeah, that doesn't make sense, because it's not a Japanese setting and Japanese characters...
 

But most players don't understand them or care for them, making it sound extremely odd (I've seen at least part of four different Persona 3/4 LPs-- one of them's in progress from a guy studying Japanese who points out the meaning of every honorofic, while the other three all found them awkward and just made the obligatory "senpai" joke before learning to ignore them). The game's not in Japanese, and "Sir/M'am/Brother/Teacher" would be understood by more players. It just feels tacky and pandery-- why can't you go all the way when you're 99% there? It's like when I was trying to find the Festival DLC conversations for Fates-- damn near all the translators called it by the Japanese title, using the Japanese names (even when they're functionally identical-- we don't call the Japanese capital "Toukyou", do we?) and keeping honorifics intact.

 

[Kaze]

18 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Persona and stuff isn't pandery... They're Japanese characters living in Japan using honorifics, like in real life. Why do people think that? I'll never understand...

I mean, if you had them leaving honorifics intact in like Attack of Titan, yeah, that doesn't make sense, because it's not a Japanese setting and Japanese characters...

But sigh... Sometimes I think that the internet giving us access to fan translations/translators gives us more headaches when the localization comes in, so it gives people who don't understand the purpose of localization can complain and whine about not getting a full-scale copy and paste of a Japanese game made for a Japanese audience, even when changes are necessary for the game to flow for a non-Japanese one. Just...argh...

But a lot of Fates' writing issues stem from the original game itself though

plus Soleil's character trope isn't a thing in the west and is potentially offensive if they didn't change it - have you read her original supports with Forrest? cringe - she comes off like a pushy and invasive asshole for the most part

But yeah, I can see why something like Saizo/Beruka being rewritten to be a joke on both of them being quiet could be upsetting. Not sure why Treehouse went that route, considering Fates already has plenty of comedy in other supports...

I almost feel like going back, compiling a list of all the changes in earlier games, and saying, "Each time you feel the need to complain about Fates' localization, you need to complain about every localization ever, because we've always had things changed. Just...learn Japanese and import the original game, then. That's the only way you'll be satisfied." Except they'd just complain more and ignore it.

alright partially derailing with all this talk, rant over

Believe me I'm well aware of everything you've mentioned (including the crossed out stuff). I've been one of few vocal people on tumblr defending the localization of Fates. I remember I got attacked on there for trying to come up with reasons for the name changes. Especially when it came to Joker to Jakob and Zero to Niles. So many people attacked me for trying to explain those changes. I even made the argument that if they didn't like the changes made to Fates during the localization process then they should learn Japanese and import a Japanese 3DS and Japanese copy of the game. That got a lot of them yelling/complaining that they couldn't afford to do that. My response was, "Then just don't play the game if you're that upset over it and/or can't afford to import it."

Sadly, even when you bring up that these kind of localization changes have been made in previous games, it's like talking to a wall. The "purist" newcomer fans will never be satisfied with the localization changes. Neither will the "old school" veterans who are used to the gameplay of pre-Awakening titles.

Like I said in the past, regardless of what's done, you won't ever satisfy everyone. There will be those that refuse to accept the game whether it's because they're anti-Gaiden or they're unwilling to try out a game that's basically a polar opposite of Awakening and Fates. However, there will be a few of us (ideally the majority of us) who enjoy Echoes - Shadows of Valentia for what it is.

Edited March 17, 2017 by KazeNinja17

[Extrasolar]

21 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

But most players don't understand them or care for them, making it sound extremely odd (I've seen at least part of four different Persona 3/4 LPs-- one of them's in progress from a guy studying Japanese who points out the meaning of every honorofic, while the other three all found them awkward and just made the obligatory "senpai" joke before learning to ignore them).

I'd argue that the vast majority of Persona fans have at least a passing familiarity with anime, considering the game and series itself is heavily, heavily inspired by anime, enough to have at least a passing familiarity with the honorifics and what they're used for. Does it alienate some players? Yup. But is it realistic and faithful to the setting? Yep.

But I'd argue that realism wins the day here.

21 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

The game's not in Japanese, and "Sir/M'am/Brother/Teacher" would be understood by more players. It just feels tacky and pandery-- why can't you go all the way when you're 99% there? It's like when I was trying to find the Festival DLC conversations for Fates-- damn near all the translators called it by the Japanese title, using the Japanese names (even when they're functionally identical-- we don't call the Japanese capital "Toukyou", do we?) and keeping honorifics intact.

But Japanese honorifics are not a perfect 1:1 translation a lot of the time. A teenage high school student calling another teenage high school student "[name]-san" is not referring to that same-aged person as "Mr." or "Miss," which is the way that "-san" is often translated. Not to mention, you can't exactly get across "-chan" not using the honorific, unless you want said character to be referring to them with an endearing nickname every time you want them to say their name.

Not to mention, it's just not natural for people the west to address their teachers as, well, "Teacher," whereas it's normal in Japan.

The Fates example is a common thing I've seen when name changes between versions exist. From what I've seen a lot of people use the Japanese names because they read the entire game and/or played the entire game in Japanese months before the localization even hit, which is why they still use them. I know I still occasionally drop a "Holyn" or "Johan" rather than a "Chulainn" or "Iuchar," simply because I've been referring to those characters using those names for so long they're partially ingrained in my brain. I know that it's incorrect when I'm here in the west, but it's a force of habit.

Plus, if you're reading translations of the Japanese version, some like to keep Japanese names for consistency. I don't mind seeing a "Leon" or "Zero" when reading a translation of their conversation, because that's what those characters are and refer to each other in that version. I'll know who they're talking about. But yeah...I'll admit if we're talking about the English version here, English names, please.

EDIT: @KazeNinja17 Well said. At this point, I think "trying to reconcile the extremists" is a waste of time and we should just move on, tbh. Every fandom will always have its extremists who refuse to see other points of view (whether on one end or the other), and there's not much we can do about it. Echoes is shaping up to be a great game, and I'm excited for it, alongside plenty of other FE fans. If anything, I'm glad we have more people talking about FE than ever, and hope the series stays popular.
 

Edited March 17, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Kaze]

17 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

EDIT: @KazeNinja17 Well said. At this point, I think "trying to reconcile the extremists" is a waste of time and we should just move on, tbh. Every fandom will always have its extremists who refuse to see other points of view (whether on one end or the other), and there's not much we can do about it. Echoes is shaping up to be a great game, and I'm excited for it, alongside plenty of other FE fans. If anything, I'm glad we have more people talking about FE than ever, and hope the series stays popular.

Agreed. As long as there are those of us that still enjoy the series regardless of what gets changed/not changed, that's all that matters. Yes, games in the series will have their flaws, but what game doesn't?

[KliffIsTheOG]

1 hour ago, Extrasolar said:

Gonna echo what everyone else here says and say probably not. Well, the issue here is that there are different types of "old fans" and "new fans," as someone was saying before. There are the elitist old fans who hate everything new just for not being the same games in the earlier series, and the new fans who cling to the mechanics of the newer series and refuse to try anything else. Then there are the people in the middle or who lean slightly to either side; I prefer the older games from a writing and story standpoint a lot of the time, personally, but I like a lot of the new mechanics introduced in the newer ones and some of the characters too.

There's not gonna be much pleasing either extreme side, as it seems. People are stubborn, especially when it comes to thinks they like and things that they like being changed or modified. They get possessive, and take things more personal because these are things close to them. I can't exactly fault them for that, but I wish people would step back and have more perspective every now and then.

I am genuinely curious and confused about why the Fates localization has the most vitriol I've seen against any localized anything since 4Kids. I mean, can someone enlighten me on what the deal is? Stuff has been changed in localization since day one (including stuff in FE), and nobody complains about how Blazing Blade's localization is utter trash that spits in the face of the original, or something. I'm just...confused.

Gonna ECHO? I see what you did there!

[Yula]

1 hour ago, KazeNinja17 said:

Sadly, even when you bring up that these kind of localization changes have been made in previous games, it's like talking to a wall. The "purist" newcomer fans will never be satisfied with the localization changes. Neither will the "old school" veterans who are used to the gameplay of pre-Awakening titles.

Bringing up anything that parallels or even surpasses their problems with the newer games is a waste of time in general as they shut you out and refuse to listen. The old school purists prefer to stick their fingers in their ears and scream out "lalalalalalala" rather than open their eyes. As for the purist newcomers, that's a common problem I've had with video gaming in general.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Commander Xelon

[eclipse]

Alright everyone, two deep breaths.  Bitching about bitching isn't going to make things better.

Now back to the topic.

[Kaze]

3 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Alright everyone, two deep breaths.  Bitching about bitching isn't going to make things better.

Now back to the topic.

Sorry about that Eclipse. I suppose a few of us got extremely off-topic and a bit out of hand there. ^^;

[Slumber]

No. It lacks features that a lot of newer players swear by, and Gaiden was already a contentious title among the old school fans.

[Reflex]

The old school fans would hate Gaiden, the females' clothes reveal too much.

[mikethepokemaster]

20 minutes ago, Reflex said:

The old school fans would hate Gaiden, the females' clothes reveal too much.

How so Mae while hot she doesn't show to much skin and Celica only show her shoulder blades.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

2 minutes ago, mikethepokemaster said:

How so Mae while hot she doesn't show to much skin and Celica only show her shoulder blades.

Perhaps he's referring to this game manual. It's the oldest official artwork I can think of for this series. Pegasus knights have never worn pants, but neither do the villagers. Celica too rocks the thigh high greaves. Other than that, it's pretty tame as far as I can see. Ryuto (or Luthier in Echoes) and Boey are even wearing the same set of armor typical of female mages despite being male. 

[mikethepokemaster]

21 minutes ago, Gustavos said:

Perhaps he's referring to this game manual. It's the oldest official artwork I can think of for this series. Pegasus knights have never worn pants, but neither do the villagers. Celica too rocks the thigh high greaves. Other than that, it's pretty tame as far as I can see. Ryuto (or Luthier in Echoes) and Boey are even wearing the same set of armor typical of female mages despite being male. 

Nothing to wrong except boye  wanting to his legs off. The art is pretty bad but it was 1992.

[Jedi]

9 hours ago, Commander Xelon said:

The fact that someone in the fire emblem fandom can say this without a shred of sarcasm tells me that the fandom has no sense of irony. Being hypercritical of everything and contrarian is the Fire Emblem fandom's modus operandi at this point. It has been this bad since awakening came out, primarily due to the powerful blinding force of nostalgia. The other MO of the fandom is complaining about optional things, but that is neither here nor there.

 

As I have stated before, the section of people in this fandom that will be the most hostile towards Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia will be the Seisen no Keifu fanboys. Not the newcomers, not the Tellius group, not the GBA fans like myself. It'll be the people who blindly look at FE4 as if it was the greatest thing ever, because in their minds, it's an insult that Gaiden was chosen for a remake over Seisen. How do I know this? I watched this go down with Shin Monsho no Nazo.

 

As for how the rest of the fandom will treat Echoes? Those who love the NES(Or DS) games will love it. Those who love the GBA games could potentially like it. Those that love the Tellius games may be put off from it as might the people who started with the 3DS games. There are variables within each part of the fanbase, so this is a generalization. The biggest variable lies not within the fandom(Which is so predictable at this point it ceases to be funny. Even the Sonic Fandom has surprised me in the last few years because the fandom seems to come together, both old and new when it comes to Sonic Mania), but it lies with people who will be picking up Fire Emblem for the first time in their lives, starting with Shadows of Valentia.

 

If you dislike what I said, then you're free to have your own opinion. I'm just stating my predictions based on patterns I've been seeing for nine years.

I've seen more disappointment from Tellius fans that it wasn't Tellius HD, more than FE4 fans honestly.

[Yula]

7 minutes ago, Jedi said:

I've seen more disappointment from Tellius fans that it wasn't Tellius HD, more than FE4 fans honestly.

Doesn't the special edition have all the cutscenes from the tellius games in HD, which is sort of like a slap in the face?

[Tamanoir]

Well, complaining about stuff is one of the oldest activities in the world. I recently read a tewt that was exactly about that (an od guy, his son and their donkey. If the son ride on the donkey, he's an ingrate that doesn't care about his father, if the father goes on he have no consideration for his son, and so on.)

I think this kind of iterrogation is part of the problem actually. If you expect a new game to be the "saviour of FE", or use it as a fuel to scream at how everything is wrong and the serie is dead, you will find reasons to complaint, since your expectations are too high. (though being a fan, it's hard not to be hyped too much...)

Personnally, Echoes is made for me, and I know I'll enjoy it. If newcommers enjoy it as well, I will be extremely glad, but I don't want to put this burden on this game alone, since it probably won't be up to the task (and that's clearly not its goal.)

[vercio]

3 hours ago, Tamanoir said:

Personnally, Echoes is made for me, and I know I'll enjoy it. If newcommers enjoy it as well, I will be extremely glad, but I don't want to put this burden on this game alone, since it probably won't be up to the task (and that's clearly not its goal.)

Damn right, i don't think this is going to be the FE that will merge the "old" Emblems to the newest fans, but still it's going to be a beautiful experience for all of us since Gaiden is so different from the other chapters

 

[Dragonage2ftw]

On 3/16/2017 at 9:01 PM, Jedi said:

Considering Old fans themselves are divided heavily on Gaiden, no.

Yeah.

 

This.

 

If anything, bridges will be burned down because of Echoes.