Which mediocre units are now good? (Skill Inheriting potential)

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Roflolxp54 said:

Lyn would want Vantage,

Vantage is only useful for a defense team to chip away at the player's health and for an offense team if you're killing your target in 1 hit or on the first hit of the second round of combat.

Brash Assault seems more useful for Lyn on an offense team to guarantee 2 consecutive hits against all enemies at low health.

[Pimalai]

How about Raven? I have a Raven +1 and no Hectors, so he's my axe unit, along with Minerva.

[Roflolxp54]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Vantage is only useful for a defense team to chip away at the player's health and for an offense team if you're killing your target in 1 hit or on the first hit of the second round of combat.

Brash Assault seems more useful for Lyn on an offense team to guarantee 2 consecutive hits against all enemies at low health.

Would she also want Fury or keep Defiant Atk to go along with Brash Assault? Fury is a popular skill for units in Arena Offense.

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Roflolxp54 said:

Would she also want Fury or keep Defiant Atk to go along with Brash Assault? Fury is a popular skill for units in Arena Offense.

I'm not personally a fan of Fury, so I'm a bit biased. I also haven't run calcs on her matchups with and without Fury, so I can't really give much advice on the matter. Sorry. ^^;;;

[General Horace]

Ive been running brave axe + death blow on Cherche, she has +8 strength on Camilla.  She just flat out kills more or less every lance user and magic user, along with some reds and most greens.  Have Glimmer on her too just for a filler proc but haven't decided on other skills, have Wings of Mercy because I rolled like 15 Fredericks for now.

[Elieson]

33 minutes ago, General Horace said:

Ive been running brave axe + death blow on Cherche, she has +8 strength on Camilla.  She just flat out kills more or less every lance user and magic user, along with some reds and most greens.  Have Glimmer on her too just for a filler proc but haven't decided on other skills, have Wings of Mercy because I rolled like 15 Fredericks for now.

any spare Spurs/Hones could probably help when she's not slaughtering blues and greens IMO

48 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Selena only has 3 less ATK than Lyn, and only 2 less ATK when both have +ATK natures. (Selena's in one of those growth tiers where a +boon gives her 4 rather than 3, and Lyn is in one of those growth tiers where a -bane gives her -4 rather than -3). Moreover, Selena has such absurd bulk that even after Life and Death 3 she STILL has more def than Lyn, it's ridiculous.

Also, being a 3 star base means it's easier to get a good boon/bane combo for Selena than it is to get a good boon/bane combo for Lyn.

Mind, I have a major Selena bias, but Lyn is one of the few sword lords I'd consider Selena strictly better than. (And wow I just made my English professors turn in their graves.) Erika fares even worse, she only has 1 more ATK (admittedly she keeps this +1 advantage because she's also in the growth tier where a +boon gives 4 ATK) and the same speed despite having worse bulk because she dumped so many points into HP.

I'm with you in that I see usefulness with Selena, but part of the issue is that the SwordLords have their Niches that Severa Selena doesn't fit. Eirika does well on a #Blade team, while Lyn does well as a Sniper of sorts, with her innate Desperation 2. Severa's usefulness is entirely dependant on feeding her a Weapon and a set of skills that limit her utility. Also, the 16 Mt Sol Katti that Lyn carries will always have more attack power than anything Severa can hold, with the exception of Wo Dao during Skill usage. She can keep a Brave or ArmorSlayer in pocket but then boasts a relatively small attack power that's scratching Hector much less than any other swordie. Sure she can take a hit but she can't take a hit and chip back hard, which is my concern of her. What do you have Severa do, then? Reserve her for utility? Literally anybody can Hone/Spur. Use her for baiting approaches? Why use a swordie for that.

I suppose she allows safer approach to Julia and Nino but I feel like she's heavily outclassed, by having given up too much offense for too high defensive parameters. Not by a lot, but by enough to keep her out of a niche.

[MaskedAmpharos]

1 hour ago, Roflolxp54 said:

Would she also want Fury or keep Defiant Atk to go along with Brash Assault? Fury is a popular skill for units in Arena Offense.

I think, since Brash Assault needs you to be at or below 50% HP anyways, it has more synergy with Defiant Attack, which activates at the same HP threshold but gives more than double the attack that Fury does. You mostly want to focus on getting down to the HP threshold and then one-shotting everything with Brash Assault + Sol Katti, so the extra damage is better for you than the extra durability Fury gives you. 

[Roflolxp54]

31 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

I think, since Brash Assault needs you to be at or below 50% HP anyways, it has more synergy with Defiant Attack, which activates at the same HP threshold but gives more than double the attack that Fury does. You mostly want to focus on getting down to the HP threshold and then one-shotting everything with Brash Assault + Sol Katti, so the extra damage is better for you than the extra durability Fury gives you. 

Hmm... so list of units I'd want to pull for the sake of giving Lyn skills:

5* Ephraim (Moonbow and Threaten Def)

4* Selena (Threaten Spd and Reposition)

4* Bartre (Brash Assault)

4* Lon'qu (Glimmer and Vantage)

Also considering:

Training Donnel to 3* for Reciprocal Aid

Pull 3*+ Florina for Ardent Sacrifice

[eclipse]

2 hours ago, Pimalai said:

How about Raven? I have a Raven +1 and no Hectors, so he's my axe unit, along with Minerva.

I'd do Death Blow over Defiant Spd, since his job is to kill things.  Maybe Drag Back, so he can retreat to safety after killing something.

[Birdy]

2 hours ago, Roflolxp54 said:

Would she also want Fury or keep Defiant Atk to go along with Brash Assault? Fury is a popular skill for units in Arena Offense.

 

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm not personally a fan of Fury, so I'm a bit biased. I also haven't run calcs on her matchups with and without Fury, so I can't really give much advice on the matter. Sorry. ^^;;;

One thing you need to know about Fury, and this is quite important for everyone thinking about putting this skill on one or multiple of their units, is this:

 

While it can lead you to higher ratings in the Arena, it makes fights so, so much harder. Why you ask? Because those stats increases your base stats, which can increases the amount of points you can get in Arena. However, it also makes you go up against higher enemies. I put Fury 3 on my 40+1 Minerva, 40+1 Lucina and 40 Linde, while already using Eldigan with Fury for the bonus. What happened was, it made me go up against whales. I went from fighting other Lvl40's to fighting Lvl.40+10's because of the increased stats from Fury. However, this made the skill useless, or even worse, a big liability since the stat boost was negated by the enemies increased stats from merging, not to mention that the enemy units actually had a usefull A skill and DON'T get 6 damage after every fight. They also have more skills since they have the bonus SP from being merged a lot of times. Ofcourse, this might be circumvented by having Lvl.40+10's yourself...

 

While I like the challenge (deathless arena runs actually become somewhat boring and expected), it can be quite frustrating, and sometimes even impossible. Just be aware of that. 

[Roflolxp54]

1 minute ago, Birdy said:

-Fury = Arena difficulty increase- 

Yeah, I'll pass on Fury; my team isn't that pro to begin with. Only gotten to the 3601-3800 score category so far and my team does struggle (almost never get a no-death chain) due to me having a small roster size with mostly suboptimal units.

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Birdy said:

One thing you need to know about Fury, and this is quite important for everyone thinking about putting this skill on one or multiple of their units, is this:

That's one of the reasons I'm biased against Fury. I like where my characters are right now with their stat totals as I'm in a comfortable spot where I don't have too much trouble getting 4530-4560 points in the arena, which I'm satisfied with and don't typically see opponents with more than 4 or 5 merges on them (despite having 2 +10 characters in my team).

At the very least, once the April update hits, Fury will no longer count towards your stat totals, which will make it actually count as a functional skill.

[DehNutCase]

4 hours ago, Elieson said:

any spare Spurs/Hones could probably help when she's not slaughtering blues and greens IMO

I'm with you in that I see usefulness with Selena, but part of the issue is that the SwordLords have their Niches that Severa Selena doesn't fit. Eirika does well on a #Blade team, while Lyn does well as a Sniper of sorts, with her innate Desperation 2. Severa's usefulness is entirely dependant on feeding her a Weapon and a set of skills that limit her utility. Also, the 16 Mt Sol Katti that Lyn carries will always have more attack power than anything Severa can hold, with the exception of Wo Dao during Skill usage. She can keep a Brave or ArmorSlayer in pocket but then boasts a relatively small attack power that's scratching Hector much less than any other swordie. Sure she can take a hit but she can't take a hit and chip back hard, which is my concern of her. What do you have Severa do, then? Reserve her for utility? Literally anybody can Hone/Spur. Use her for baiting approaches? Why use a swordie for that.

I suppose she allows safer approach to Julia and Nino but I feel like she's heavily outclassed, by having given up too much offense for too high defensive parameters. Not by a lot, but by enough to keep her out of a niche.

Let's give Selena Wo Dao, +3 ATK (Fury also works, but let's keep it +3 Attack so math is easier), +ATK boon, and Moonbow.

Base attack is 29 + 13 + 3 = 45

When Wo Dao triggers it's 55

Tank a hit from hector for 12 damage (39 (+ATK boon) + 16 = 55 55 * .8 = 44 44 - 32 = 12).

Selena counters for 45 * 1.2 - 37 (base def) = 17 & 55 (Wo Dao) * 1.2 - 37 * .7 (= 26) = 40.

That is, 57 damage, clean kill (+Def variants WOULD HAVE lived... if it wasn't for the fact that Moonbow seals the deal with exactly lethal) in return for a bit of chip (12 damage, Selena can tank 3 of these and live, barely).

Edit: Selena does 55 damage to Hector, missing the 1RKO on +Def variant (unless I did my math wrong), someone pass me the salt.

But we already knew Selena murders greens, WTA means that units with good bulk will take barely any damage when they have the advantage.

 

Now let's give her sword breaker because why not? (Renewal or Desperation would be interesting, but Selena functions best when she takes a hit before her second hit---so that Moonbow triggers.)

Now we're fighting, let's say + ATK - RES Lucina with Fury and Luna (actually, Lucina's special doesn't matter since Selena one rounds her, but whatever).

Lucina base damage = 37 + 16 + 3 = 56. Lucina base defense = 25 + 3 = 28 (29 with + boon, but I don't think anyone will be running +DEF Lucina if they have a +ATK Lucina).

Lucina attacks for 56 - 32 = 24, ouch. Selena counters for 45 - 28 = 17 and 55 - 28 * .7 = 35    35 + 17 = 52. She's dead, Jim.

And even after that, Selena still has enough HP left to murder a Hector.

 

Edit: Typos.

Double Edit: Actually... I don't know if Wo Dao simply adds 10 to ATK or not when it triggers, it might just be a straight up +10 to damage, hmm.. I'll need to go double check.

Triple Edit: ... Wo Dao just flat out adds 10 damage, my life is slightly sad now. Selena deals 2 less damage to Hector, meaning she misses the 1RKO on the +Def variant. D:

Edited March 18, 2017 by DehNutCase

[Shiro]

On 3/17/2017 at 1:12 PM, Ice Dragon said:

I'm not personally a fan of Fury, so I'm a bit biased. I also haven't run calcs on her matchups with and without Fury, so I can't really give much advice on the matter. Sorry. ^^;;;

yay someone else who doesnt like fury xD what are your thoughts on this??? becuase death blow doesnt seem to be very effective.

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by Shiro

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Shiro said:

yay someone else who doesnt like fury xD what are your thoughts on this??? becuase death blow doesnt seem to be very effective.

Eldigan's low Spd prevents him from double attacking, which limits the effectiveness of Death Blow if he can't one-shot his target.

If you want Death Blow to be more effective consider a Weaponbreaker skill or Brash Assault in the B slot, though those might be overkill. If you don't mind replacing Death Blow, consider Triangle Adept. If you want things more dead but don't want to get rid of Death Blow, try Quick Riposte or Seal Defense. If you want to live forever, perhaps Renewal.

[Shiro]

5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Eldigan's low Spd prevents him from double attacking, which limits the effectiveness of Death Blow if he can't one-shot his target.

If you want Death Blow to be more effective consider a Weaponbreaker skill or Brash Assault in the B slot, though those might be overkill. If you don't mind replacing Death Blow, consider Triangle Adept. If you want things more dead but don't want to get rid of Death Blow, try Quick Riposte or Seal Defense. If you want to live forever, perhaps Renewal.

well i want to use him as a defensive team sudicide unit where he can get behind enemy lines and wipe out mages archers anything squishy however i dont think he has the firepower capable of doing so. triangle adept sounds interesting and i have swordbreaker on him. My main objective is to deter my enemies from getting the highest score possible with deathless runs. 

[Ice Dragon]

16 minutes ago, Shiro said:

well i want to use him as a defensive team sudicide unit where he can get behind enemy lines and wipe out mages archers anything squishy however i dont think he has the firepower capable of doing so. triangle adept sounds interesting and i have swordbreaker on him. My main objective is to deter my enemies from getting the highest score possible with deathless runs. 

Leaving Lunge equipped is amazing for catching players off guard and letting the AI get free kills for you.

[ZXApocrypha]

Nino was probably the best green mage prior to inheritance, but can now can potentially (w/ either lots of merging or training tower grind) become the best mage hands down, given her impressive atk/spd (only 1 less base atk than Linde but significantly higher [though still low] def) and inherent *blade tome which grants her +atk PER STAT GAIN (= a soft cap of +16 attack just based on bonus stats); combine this w/ a decent inherited special (e.g. Luna, Glimmer, Galeforce, etc.), Fury 3, any solid B skill (e.g. desperation, vantage, *breaker) and she'll be nigh unstoppable w/ the appropriate support unit (e.g. Eirika, or Ephraim w/ inherited hone spd 3).

Along the same lines, consider what Olwen (which vanilla is decent but by no means top tier) could do w/ a *blade tome, given that she can receive up to 24 bonus stats from cavalry-specific buffs....

On another note, many "useless" red type units can be made useful if you have an extra Karel for some reason, since Wo Dao+ can be inherited (and is likely the best inheritable weapon). The only reason I personally might consider giving up a unit as innately powerful as Karel is to round out specialty squads, e.g. pegasus knight/cavalry, w/ especially powerful red units (e.g. consider what Caeda could do w/ a Wo Dao+ and an inherited moonbow/reprisal, and the +10/10/4/4 stats granted her by pegasus-specific buffs).

Edited March 18, 2017 by ZXApocrypha