Hacking vs Cheating

[shadowofchaos]

Okay, so this was ran by a mod (specifically @eclipse ) and she said that if I could explain this properly and start a civil discussion about the subject, that she'd let it go. However, if it's even a little big out of line, it'd be locked. Simply because hacking/cheating is a *SENSITIVE* subject for people and their preconceived notions.

Please also give this a look over to see if I should change anything to conform to the rules of the forum.

And I approve of these conditions. (I will in fact ask it to be locked if the discussion gets too heated)

Ground Rules:

1. *DO NOT* link threads or sites to hacking the game itself. Such as things that describe methods on how someone here could discover how to do it on their own.

2. Read the entire post before joining in the discussion. If you just come in here guns blazing, spouting out insults about hackers and get this locked, you'll be known as the member that wasn't intelligent enough to join a potential discussion about the inner workings of the game/morality and ruining it for everyone else.

3. Please thoroughly know the difference between the terms "hacker" and "cheater".

If the mods feel that the subject is broader than originally intended to encompass just discussion of perspectives and morality of hacking in FE heroes, please move this to serious discussion.

I have three main subjects to address with FE heroes with this thread towards the community.

First, let me clarify the difference between "hacker" and "cheater". I, being a known FE hacker and making my living via computer programming, tend to be a little more sensitive with the interchangeability of these terms to the normal person.

A hacker is a person who hacks. Essentially a person that takes apart already compiled computer code/programs into their parts and modifies them accordingly. A cheater is a person that has malicious intent by using hacks to gain advantage in a game. And in this case, in a multiplayer game, which is *HEAVILY* frowned upon and ostracized. Hackers are not necessarily cheaters. Cheaters are not necessarily hackers (as in most cases, they pretty much look for tutorials from people who have done it before). But there is an overlap. (My personal opinion is that most cheaters are... well... insecure and most likely don't possess enough intelligence to make their own hacks. But I digress.)

The general consensus from here is that when it's single player, people are generally cool with it. When it doesn't ruin another's experience, that people are cool about using cheats. You can see that from this thread: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/66298-what-is-your-view-on-video-game-cheating/

We even have a ROM hacking community.

Hell, data mining is hacking. We probably never have been able to confirm the nature system in heroes 100% without hacking.

Another non-malicious form of hacking is the UNDUB hack for FE heroes:

Spoiler

 

 

The first subject towards the FE community:

Where do you draw the line with a mobile game like FE heroes? Where is the line there? How much of the game is inherently multiplayer?

(Tweet with image)

Spoiler

 

This image was made from someone messing around with an alternate account and was never intended to touch the arena. Hell, they probably never even linked it to a Nintendo Account. There probably isn't even a trace of it besides this image.

 

Second subject:

However, in that same thread, there is rampant discussion of hacking arena points via RAM hacking with Cheat Engine (using the Nox Emulator). From what I read, there have been ban waves. They are banned from having friends.

They cannot participate in social events (such as the voting gauntlet).

And they cannot be ranked in the arena. Nor will people see them and fight against them (thereby they will never have defense feathers either).

They can, however, duplicate units via RAM hacking from story events as well as their characters, rank them up to 5 star, and sell them for 1000 feathers.

(They cannot modify orbs or feathers, as they are server side)

But to you people, is that enough? Is them being isolated to another part of the server to hack the single player campaign to pieces acceptable?

Being a hacker myself, I have my share of joy of hacking things to pieces in games.

Spoiler

 

There's really no difference between this image above.

And mine:

Spoiler

 

But FE heroes "multiplayer" is pretty much the social aspect and Arena Rankings.

Since Nintendo just banned them from those features, are you, as a community satisfied with just that?

And third subject:

Going with the above... is it moral to go and get banned from the social aspect of the game and have fun with it?

Like for example (not that I'd do it)...

If I were to go and make an alternate account right now with *THE PURPOSE* of being banned to screw around like I do with single player games with cheats... Is that something that is acceptable?

Edited March 18, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Ryuke]

Honestly. I have hacked (well coded) a script for a mobile game before... and only did so ... because it gotten to the point where F2P ... became P2Win. Never got banned (and they did ban people), I quit playing ever since Heroes come out.

As for heroes, I havent start modding, I might for a secondary account. I enjoy Fire Emblem too much that I dont want to cheat this game (Also so far its easy...) .... I do however feel disappointed always being in the 30K-50K range for Arena. I was thinking, mod some Takumis and get 10K and keep the rest fair. However... life kicks in and well... with skill inheritance... it's probably not worth it. (Also they ban people pretty quick).

 

Since I am a developer; I am completely fine with people modding the game... except ... like you mention... using it to gain complete unfair advantage to players. (Like I saw... 40+10 x4 Takumi with some crazy skill inheritance before it was released ... being shown up as a defense team deserves to get ban)

 

[shadowofchaos]

Just as of note... reddit did pretty much established that earlier last month... the top 100-200 players on the arena rankings were hackers.

 

[Shiro]

Personally as someone who has spent an overwhelming amount on this game it is a relief that the ban waves came through. fighting +10 teams with ryoma and such was a pain to deal with as i couldnt secure deathless runs. In addition to that I do however find it ok for someone to "cheat" or "hack" the game as long as they are in single player mode only and can not affect the rest of the community as well. I will also say that I did enjoy the datamines that came out which are hacks as it was very useful information. Of course Nintendo decided to give us updates such as the grand hero battles ahead of time now :3 that is just about all i have to say in terms of hacks and cheaters.

[Ryuke]

1 minute ago, shadowofchaos said:

Just as of note... reddit did pretty much established that earlier last month... the top 100-200 players on the arena rankings were hackers.

 

I believe most of these hackers are banned by now. I do follow a hacking community and people did rage on ... getting banned in FEH sometimes early this week (or last week)

[shadowofchaos]

Just now, Shiro said:

Personally as someone who has spent an overwhelming amount on this game it is a relief that the ban waves came through. fighting +10 teams with ryoma and such was a pain to deal with as i couldnt secure deathless runs. In addition to that I do however find it ok for someone to "cheat" or "hack" the game as long as they are in single player mode only and can not affect the rest of the community as well. I will also say that I did enjoy the datamines that came out which are hacks as it was very useful information. Of course Nintendo decided to give us updates such as the grand hero battles ahead of time now :3 that is just about all i have to say in terms of hacks and cheaters.

I actually wanted to make this topic to get inputs from at least one whale.

(Lol it almost feels like that term is like... almost derogatory at this point)

Thanks!

[dragonlordsd]

My response to this is twofold:

1. I appreciate datamining, and have found that it has enhanced my enjoyment of the game.

To date, FEH has been really bad about announcing upcoming events and changes, usually only saying something the day of it happening. If it weren't for dataminers revealing upcoming events, such as the Ursula Grand Hero Battle, I would have lost interest weeks ago.

Now, they may improve on their reporting of events and changes. Just this week, they announced the Focus a day in advance, and provided us with a list of upcoming Grand Hero Battles for the next few months. So, at some point, datamining may be unnecessary, but for now, I find it valuable to the community.

2. I'm apathetic about cheating in a game without direct pvp.

While cheating in the arena is definitely bad, I find it hard to care. As long as I end up in the top 50,000 on my own (which I do every week), getting an extra 1000 feathers or not really doesn't matter to me, but I can understand them wanting it to stop.

[Shiro]

3 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

I actually wanted to make this topic to get inputs from at least one whale.

(Lol it almost feels like that term is like... almost derogatory at this point)

Thanks!

atm it is all about rating and bts so right now is 698 and i dont fight teams full of +10s however if i use other higher bst heroes i would go over a certian point where i would be fighting a bunch of +10 heroes. I dont know if there are still hacked teas out there or just huge whales that have spent tens of thousands of dollars but they are in defense arena. right not the exploit is that people use full fury teams to get +4700 atm. Currently  I am waiting for the update in april so I can actually challenge myself and not have to fight unmerged units becuase atm that is all i am fighting with my current bst.

[Ryuke]

4 minutes ago, Shiro said:

atm it is all about rating and bts so right now is 698 and i dont fight teams full of +10s however if i use other higher bst heroes i would go over a certian point where i would be fighting a bunch of +10 heroes. I dont know if there are still hacked teas out there or just huge whales that have spent tens of thousands of dollars but they are in defense arena. right not the exploit is that people use full fury teams to get +4700 atm. Currently  I am waiting for the update in april so I can actually challenge myself and not have to fight unmerged units becuase atm that is all i am fighting with my current bst.

I love to give you  a medal for all the money you spent to help us.

[Ice Dragon]

14 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Hell, data mining is hacking. We probably never have been able to confirm the IV system in heroes 100% without hacking.

I had enough data from pulls alone about two weeks into the game to confirm the existence of natures and exactly how they work at level 1. Another two more weeks of arena data got me how they work at level 40. No hacking required, just a flaming wallet.

Also, please don't use "IV". It's so blatantly wrong, and it makes me sad.

 

19 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Where do you draw the line with a mobile game like FE heroes? Where is the line there? How much of the game is inherently multiplayer?

My belief is that if you are not negatively affecting others' interaction with the game as it is intended to be played (e.g. through leaderboards or direct player interaction), I don't care what you do.

The answers to the remaining questions are simple because they just logically follow from this.

 

22 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

But to you people, is that enough? Is them being isolated to another part of the server to hack the single player campaign to pieces acceptable?

Yes.

In any game where a single-player campaign is completely isolated from any social aspect of the game, go nuts. Achievement trophies do not count as a social aspect unless they are involved in a leaderboard or related feature.

 

23 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Since Nintendo just banned them from those features, are you, as a community satisfied with just that?

Yes.

 

23 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

If I were to go and make an alternate account right now with *THE PURPOSE* of being banned to screw around like I do with single player games with cheats... Is that something that is acceptable?

Yes.

[shadowofchaos]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Also, please don't use "IV". It's so blatantly wrong, and it makes me sad.

Fair enough.

I'm not invested in nor care about natures, so I just used what other people also used. I will edit that.

[Roflolxp54]

I don't mind dataminers since I'm the sort of guy who doesn't mind being spoiled ahead of time. Plus, they get the assets up for download in the Internet.

I've actually considered using hacks in the single player game (preferably on a side account) just to actually have a chance at using a character I may not have the opportunity to use otherwise outside of the Voting Gauntlet. There's so many characters I wish to try out but I don't exactly like the idea of gambling over 2 USD for a random Hero with a randomly assigned Boon/Bane combination.

However, I'm next to computer illiterate so I don't really know how to actually hack, let alone use cheats, without a guide or something. The furthest I've ever gone in terms of hacking is using Action Replay/Powersaves or exploiting the My Nintendo account link in order to get the free 4-star female Corrin as a player who mainly uses the iPhone for playing Heroes.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Roflolxp54

[eclipse]

41 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

1. *DO NOT* link threads or sites to hacking the game itself. Such as things that describe methods on how someone here could discover how to do it on their own.

And just so it's absolutely clear, if ANYONE violates this clause, it's a suspension.

19 minutes ago, Shiro said:

atm it is all about rating and bts so right now is 698 and i dont fight teams full of +10s however if i use other higher bst heroes i would go over a certian point where i would be fighting a bunch of +10 heroes. I dont know if there are still hacked teas out there or just huge whales that have spent tens of thousands of dollars but they are in defense arena. right not the exploit is that people use full fury teams to get +4700 atm. Currently  I am waiting for the update in april so I can actually challenge myself and not have to fight unmerged units becuase atm that is all i am fighting with my current bst.

Oh the irony.

---

While hacking the game can be funny and/or informative (like giving Jaffar Poison Strike, to see if it stacks with his weapon), it has the potential to be misused badly.  For Heroes hackers, I'd make it so that they can't participate in rankings, whether it be the arena or future voting gauntlets.  That way, their antics don't affect anyone else.  I guess the friend list thing is fair, since it comes into play during the voting gauntlets.

[MrSmokestack]

Datamined information on unreleased units and events is something I really look forward to, and would do myself if I had the means to. I get confused when people decry the work of dataminers, claiming what they do harms the integrity of the game, but the truth is that most hackers aren't malicious. If people tend to not waste time with things they don't care about, why hack Heroes?

 

Cheating is something I have mixed feelings about. While the ranking system creates a competitve aspect to the game's social function, which would cause any incidence of cheating to be instantly stigmatized--and rightly so--at the end of the day there is no cash prize, or anything else for that matter, on the line. In fact, you are not even directly competing against another human player when you get matched against another team in the arena will the computer get upset that it lost because you cheated? 

Not only that, but not every team with full +10 merges was necessarily cheated for; whales are a very dedicated playerbase after all. In all honesty, outside of something very obvious like Xander or the Askr Units at +10 it can be difficult to tell whether a team was cheated for or not. All the background checks IS would have do to evaluate a cheated account would be a logistical nightmare to the point of being impractical.

I still dislike cheating because it ultimately becomes pointless when it comes to actually enjoying the game. Much of the fun in Heroes comes from training up your own units and getting excited about pulling new ones, even if you get lots of bad ones over time. You might get another rush of dopamine by getting every unit you've ever wanted to +10 and have the perfect set-up, but that feeling goes away like any other one.

I think IS has done enough in regards to handling cheaters; shadow bans are adequate and limit abuse to single-player maps. Heroes isn't very secure in how it handles accounts so there are not many other measures the devs could take.

 

Overall, I appreciate the work hackers put into breaking games down and tinkering with it all. Cheating for a high score on the leaderboards is objectionable but ultimately unsatisfying.

 

Apologies if this breaks any rules on the topic. I do not think it does.

[Rezzy]

43 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

I actually wanted to make this topic to get inputs from at least one whale.

(Lol it almost feels like that term is like... almost derogatory at this point)

Thanks!

How much do you have to spend before you're a whale?  I think I've spent about $200 so far.

(Since this is text, I always worry how my tone is taken.  I always try to come across as courteous.)

If people are data-mining or just hacking to try weird stuff, I'm generally okay with that, but since there is PvP involved, hackers shouldn't be able to say instantly level their units to 40, bypassing to grind.  Their level 40's are functionally identical, but they didn't put the "work" in.  It's akin to genning Pokemon.

Also, since there is monetary value tied to the game, genning units or making them limit-break would be right out.

27 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

 

Also, please don't use "IV". It's so blatantly wrong, and it makes me sad.

Why not IVs?  It's quicker than writing out Nature or Boon/Bane every time.

10 minutes ago, eclipse said:

 

Oh the irony.

 

What's ironic?

[eclipse]

Just now, Rezzy said:

What's ironic?

Reread the quote, paying attention to the numbers.  Then, click the link.

[That_One_Lamp]

I feel the punishment is fine, and the idea of using hacking for single player "screwing around" acceptable, as single player would have no overall interaction with others, so overall no risk of possibly causing issues with them. Heck if i did it, i'd just make do it to make an OP unit to 1v4-5 Enemy units in Lunatic Story for fun.

4 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

 

If people are data-mining or just hacking to try weird stuff, I'm generally okay with that, but since there is PvP involved, hackers shouldn't be able to say instantly level their units to 40, bypassing to grind.  Their level 40's are functionally identical, but they didn't put the "work" in.  It's akin to genning Pokemon.

 

I Agree with this, so long as it stick to the single player aspects. 

[Skfoos]

While I think it's fine for someone to cheat for their own personal enjoyment (and not ruin the experiences of others on multiplayer mode), I also think that cheating in said multiplayer modes is okay as long as it is gameplay legal. 

Like for example in FE Heroes, using a cheating device to get unlimited Takumi/Hector/etc would be okay as long as they have only the skills they were originally given in the game.

However, I say that this point does not apply for FE Heroes (and other gacha games I guess, I don't play any others), as this is a game where you actually pay money to get units, putting cheaters at an advantage over those who spend thousands of dollars on this game. Those who spend the most resources should be rewarded for their dedication, not get cheesed out by someone who freely gets what may cost others lots of money.

[Ice Dragon]

5 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Why not IVs?  It's quicker than writing out Nature or Boon/Bane every time.

Because IVs do not behave anything like the stat variation mechanic in this game. "IV" and "nature" are not interchangeable in Pokémon (and a different term "DV" is even used for Gen 1 and 2 where the mechanic worked differently), and it doesn't make sense that they should be interchangeable here. Nomenclature for video game terminology is something of a pet peeve for me. If something means one thing in one game and another in another, but there was a word in the first game that better described the mechanic in the second, something went wrong.

"Boon/bane" works fine, but I think it sounds corny (alliteration does that sometimes) so I don't use it.

[Extrasolar]

I'm totally fine with hacking (some of my favorite videos online are hacks of Radiant Dawn, like Final Extreme making all units max level with maxed stats and making them fight each other and whatnot) as long as it's done for the lulz or just plain fun purposes. Like people have said, screwing around single-player mode with broken and ridiculous units is totally fine, because at the end of the day, you're not screwing over anyone else, and the single-player modes can be beaten at anyone's leisure with any unit.

Cheating to give oneself an unfair advantage over other people like in the arena, yeah, not okay with that. Cheating with perfect stats, perfect boons, making them instantly max level, with an unlimited amount of SP and such, while the rest of us are slaving in order to get this stuff and raise our units is unacceptable imo.

Also, I'm not fond of cheating on pulls. There are people who can't afford to spend money on the game that have to pray each time they summon for something good, and just cheating to get, say, unlimited Hectors is kind of a shitty thing to do. Even whales are spending hard-earned money to get those unlimited Hectors. I mean, have some decency!

[shadowofchaos]

22 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Cheating is something I have mixed feelings about. While the ranking system creates a competitve aspect to the game's social function, which would cause any incidence of cheating to be instantly stigmatized--and rightly so--at the end of the day there is no cash prize, or anything else for that matter, on the line. In fact, you are not even directly competing against another human player when you get matched against another team in the arena will the computer get upset that it lost because you cheated? 

Not only that, but not every team with full +10 merges was necessarily cheated for; whales are a very dedicated playerbase after all. In all honesty, outside of something very obvious like Xander or the Askr Units at +10 it can be difficult to tell whether a team was cheated for or not. All the background checks IS would have do to evaluate a cheated account would be a logistical nightmare to the point of being impractical.

I still dislike cheating because it ultimately becomes pointless when it comes to actually enjoying the game. Much of the fun in Heroes comes from training up your own units and getting excited about pulling new ones, even if you get lots of bad ones over time. You might get another rush of dopamine by getting every unit you've ever wanted to +10 and have the perfect set-up, but that feeling goes away like any other one.

I think IS has done enough in regards to handling cheaters; shadow bans are adequate and limit abuse to single-player maps. Heroes isn't very secure in how it handles accounts so there are not many other measures the devs could take.

That's the kind of perspective I was looking for.

As in, at the end of the day, the ranking system isn't even direct competition. The AI is the middle man, like how it is in Awakening.

I, however, understand people that are personally invested in this game (looking at the two whales in the thread so far, haha) and the feelings that come with cheaters attempting to gain an advantage.

1 minute ago, Extrasolar said:

 Cheating with perfect stats, perfect boons, making them instantly max level, with an unlimited amount of SP and such, while the rest of us are slaving in order to get this stuff and raise our units is unacceptable imo.

But what about when it doesn't affect anyone else?

I mean at the end of the day, orbs are just a 16-bit value on a server. We pay for them to change it. Which in some perspectives is the problem with the whole "free to play" model.

At the same time, the companies have the right to monetize their content.

Where is the line we draw at justifications? That's what I wanted to ask the community.

Edited March 18, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[MrSmokestack]

1 minute ago, shadowofchaos said:

I, however, understand people that are personally invested in this game (looking at the two whales in the thread so far, haha) and the feelings that come with cheaters attempting to gain an advantage.

I feel bad for not giving whales more consideration while I was writing this, now that I think about it. But I dislike jumping onto the bandwagon of "cheating is bad durr" because it assumes that the really strong team you played against just now in that one game was full of cheated units, when it could have simply been whaled for.

I just think there's too much uncertainty when it comes to a player evaluating cheaters outside of very obvious incidents, like the aforementioned Xander +10, to say too much on the subject.

[Extrasolar]

3 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

But what about when it doesn't affect anyone else?

I mean at the end of the day, orbs are just a 16-bit value on a server. We pay for them to change it. Which in some perspectives is the problem with the whole "free to play" model.

At the same time, the companies have the right to monetize their content.

Where is the line we draw at justifications? That's what I wanted to ask the community.

Oh, yeah, I'm not knocking the F2P model of this game for the most part, because for a mobile game it's definitely fair, especially in comparison to other games.

If you're a F2P (I'm technically not, but I have a limit on how much I can spend on the game a month), you have no option but to manually raise your units from 1 to 40 (granted, shards help out, but they're still limited), and at the end of the day you have no choice but to sit back and accept the units you're given from pulls, even if the game decides it wants to give you 5 3* Firs with terrible boons/banes and withhold that precious 5* Hector from your gasp.

People who can simply decide what units they get, what stat spreads they get, and how many they get just by changing some codes is just...something I'm not okay with, simply due to the disparity in effort. (Not saying that hacking is zero-effort - trust me, I know that you have to learn and practice and whatnot. But it's less effort than the slow grind all the way to 40, with boons/banes you can't choose and with units you can't choose).

Even if you aren't purposefully screwing anyone else over, I just personally don't like the inherent unfairness of "i can literally just make a perfect unit and not have to level it up," while the rest of us have to sacrifice the time, effort and energy in order to get the same result, and it's pure luck for us if we get an optimized stat spread. I mean, I'm already jealous enough of these people with 7 5* units gained without hacking that aren't Seliph. Lol.

[MrSmokestack]

14 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

But what about when it doesn't affect anyone else?

I mean at the end of the day, orbs are just a 16-bit value on a server. We pay for them to change it. Which in some perspectives is the problem with the whole "free to play" model.

At the same time, the companies have the right to monetize their content.

Where is the line we draw at justifications? That's what I wanted to ask the community.

Since companies have a right to monetize their content, maliciously hacking your orb count is technically not legal, but it's neither possible nor practical to catch everyone who attempts to do this. The ban waves that hit the playerbase a few weeks ago were far-reaching, yes, but some cheaters slipped under the radar (like how hand sanitizer kills 99.9% of germs...) and those that did get hit can and in all likelihood have already circumvented it. It may not be right, but successfully suppressing cheating is something that will never happen.

If we remove the third party that would be harmed when a player cheats out of the equation, then there wouldn't be any repercussions to doing so other than principles. Even so, this is a conclusion that neither I nor most everybody in this topic would agree with.

[shadowofchaos]

6 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Since companies have a right to monetize their content, maliciously hacking your orb count is technically not legal, but it's neither possible nor practical to catch everyone who attempts to do this. The ban waves that hit the playerbase a few weeks ago were far-reaching, yes, but some cheaters slipped under the radar (like how hand sanitizer kills 99.9% of germs...) and those that did get hit can and in all likelihood have already circumvented it. It may not be right, but successfully suppressing cheating is something that will never happen.

Just as a note, none of the hackers ever successfully hacked orbs.

Since feathers and those are limited server side... they're pretty much hack proof (unless they actually maliciously hack into the servers. Which is *ILLEGAL* in both USA and Japan)

The only exploit for feathers is generating 5 star characters and selling them.

Edited March 18, 2017 by shadowofchaos