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DehNutCase

Character Analysis: Counter-Killer Selena

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Note: This is still a work in progress, after I finish running calcs on most of the cast I'll elaborate on teammates etc.

Max level stats (taken from wiki): 37 HP/25 ATK/35 SPD/32 DEF/28 RES

After (+Atk/-Res) nature: 37 HP/29 ATK/35 SPD/32 DEF/24 RES

Skill set:

Weapon: Wo Dao+*

Special: Moonbow*

Assist Skill: Reposition

A skill: Attack +3*

B skill: Swordbreaker 3*

C skill: Threaten Speed 3

[Set Comments]

Moonbow's 2 cd means that Selena will always trigger it on her second attack as long as she took a hit beforehand, giving her 1RKO potential on most of the cast.

Reposition allows a 2 range unit to chip and then retreat to safety (that Selena has the skill naturally also eases inheritance requirements).

Attack +3 and Swordbreaker secures crucial 1RKOs (notably on Hector and Swordlords with similar speed. If the opposing Swordlord has Vantage, Swordbreaker causes Selena to 1RKO, if the opposing Swordlord has Swordbreaker, Selena's good speed tier ensures that she won't be doubled, and can attack on player phase for the KO).

Threaten Speed is kept for utility and to ease inheritance requirements.

[Set Details]

Maximum attack power while sacrificing minimal bulk (-HP variants will be 3HKO'd by +Atk Hector, and be brought too low to tank a Hector hit if Selena fought a +Atk nature, +3 Atk Lucina beforehand).

Swordbreaker to secure kills on opposing breaker and vantage users (vantage and swordbreaker are both B skills, meaning Selena either 1RKOs or can attack on the player phase to finish).

[Usage Tips]

Usually functions as the go-to bait unit, tanking a hit then counter killing. Reposition also gives positioning utility---ex. letting a ranged unit chip for free, and then moving them behind Selena so she tanks the enemy phase damage.

[Inheritance Requirements]

Swordbreaker 1 is perfectly usable, so a 3* Sully is sufficient if a 4* Abel couldn't be obtained.

Wo Dao+ is Karel only, so the set would require the sacrifice of a 5* unit to function.

Attack +3 is heavily recommended, requiring either 4* Gordin, 4* Cherche, 5* Cecilia or 5* Lilina.

Moonbow is available from 4* Palla and 4* Odin, or 5* Ephraim.

[Team Options]

Deathly allergic to blue tome users due to the necessity of taking a -RES nature, can tank blue units surprisingly well thanks to excellent bulk, though still not recommended. (Lives through +ATK Azura with Sapphire Lance+ and +3 ATK skill with exactly 1 HP remaining, unless I did my math wrong.) This means a Green damage dealer will be very welcome. Julia in particular neatly covering Selena's lack of Falchion against Dragons while wiping the floor with opposing Lindes, Reinhardts, and RobinMs. Reposition means that Selena can easily keep Julia safe as well.

Some form of recovery like Ardent Sacrifice, Reciprocal Aid, or Breath of Life will ease bulk requirements, allowing -DEF and -HP variants to be used. (Julia is again an honorable mention, although anyone can inherit the listed skills.)

[Specific Matchups]

Hard counters physical greens (+ATK hector deals 12 damage, others fare even worse while Selena either 1 or 2 rounds in return---+Def Hector variants barely survive the 1RKO, all others are cleanly 1RKO'd), 1 shots Neutral Nino (+HP or +Def variants will survive with 1 hp), 1 rounds Julia, Robin (F), and Cecilia. Merric takes 2 rounds to kill thanks to 32 speed and good bulk, doing 23 damage in return with +Atk nature and +3 Attack(-Res Selena does NOT want to face tank magic). 

 

Hector:

1 Rounds +Atk Hector, taking 12 damage in return. (Takes 44 ((39+16)*.8) - 32 = 12, deals 54 ((29+13+3)*1.2) - 37 = 17 & 54 - 26(37*.7) + 10 = 38. 17+38 = 55)

1 Rounds +Hp Hector, taking 10 damage in return. (Takes  42 ((36+16)*.8) - 32 = 10, deals 54 ((29+13+3)*1.2) - 37 = 17 & 54 - 26(37*.7) + 10 = 38. 17+38 = 55)

Fails to 1 round +Def Hector, taking 10 damage while Hector survives with 2 hp . (takes 42 - 32 = 10, deals 54 - 40 = 14 & 54 - 28(40*.7) + 10 = 36 14 + 36 = 50 52-50 = 2).

If Wo Dao bonus damage was affected by WTA, it would be a clean 1RKO, but it's not.

Red Calcs in Spoiler, note that I'm not calculating for L&D, so add 2 to the maximum damage Selena takes if you run into someone with L&D 5:

Spoiler

 

Lucina:

1 Rounds +Atk Lucina with +3 Atk, taking 24 damage in return. (Takes 37+16+3 - 32 = 24 damage, dealing 57. 29+13+3 - 25 = 20 & 29+13+3+10 - 18 (25*.7) = 37  20 + 37 = 57.)

1 Rounds +Def Lucina with +3 Atk, taking 21 damage in return. (Takes 34+16+3 - 32 = 21 damage, dealing 50. 29+13+3 - 29 = 16 & 29+13+3+10 - 21(29*.7) = 34 16+34 = 50.)

1 Rounds +Def Fury Lucina, taking 21 damage in return. (Takes 34+16+3 - 32 = 21 damage, dealing 45. 29+13+3 - 32 = 13 & 29+13+3 - 23(32*.7) = 32 13 + 32 = 45).

Ryoma:

41Hp/27(30+)Def

1 Rounds +Atk Ryoma with +3 Atk, taking 24 damage in return. (Takes 37 + 16 + 3 - 32 = 24 damage. Deals 54 damage. 45 - 27 = 18 & 45 - 19 (27*.7) + 10 = 36 18 + 36 = 54)

1 Rounds +Def Ryoma with Fury, taking 21 damage in return. (Takes 34 + 16 + 3 - 32 = 21 damage. Deals 43 damage. 45 - 33 =12 & 45 - 24 (33*.7) + 10 = 31 31 + 12 = 43)

Almost identical math to Lucina.

Marth:

1 Rounds +Atk Marth with +3 Atk, taking 21 damage in return. (Takes 34 + 16 +3 - 32 = 21 damage. Deals 50 damage. 45 - 29 = 16 & 45 - 21(29*.7) +10 = 34 16 + 34 = 50)

1 Rounds +Atk Marth with Fury, taking 21 damage in return. (Takes 31 + 16 + 3 - 32 = 21 damage. Deals 45 damage. 45 - 32 = 13 & 45 - 23 (32*.7) + 10 = 32 13 + 32 = 45)

Fails to 1 round +Def Marth with Fury, taking 18 damage in return. (Takes 31 + 16 + 3 = 18. Deals 40 damage. 45 - 35 = 10 & 45 - 25 (35*.7) + 10 = 30 10 + 30 = 40.) Marth survives with 1 hp. On the plus side, Selena can survive two 18 damage hits, so she'll win the duel no matter what.

Erika:

42Hp/26(30+)Def is only 1 Hp better than Ryoma's 41Hp/27(30+)Def. Still dead even with Fury and +Def boon.

Deals up to 30 + 16 + 3 - 32 = 17 damage, Selena can kill two of her without healing. (L&D variants can 2RKO Selena, so be careful if you run into a weirdo running two L&D Erikas).

Olivia:

36Hp/27(30+)Def, do you even need to ask?

Deals up to 31 + 15 + 3 - 32 = 17 damage. Same story as Erika.

Karel:

1 Rounds +Atk Karel with +3 Atk, taking 17 damage in return. Watch out for the Wo Dao trigger, Selena can live through a Moonbow with 1 HP, but anything stronger will KO her. (Takes 33 + 13 + 3 - 32 = 17. Deals 57 damage. 45 - 25 = 20 & 45 - 18(25*.7) + 10 = 37 37 + 20 = 57)

Fails to KO +Def Karel with Fury, taking 14 damage in return. Karel lives with 2 hp. Same as above, watch for the Wo Dao trigger, except you get 3 more hp to play with. (Takes 30 + 13 +3 - 32 = 14. Deals 45 damage. 45 - 32 = 13 & 29+13+3 - 23(32*.7) = 32 13 + 32 = 45)

+Def Karel is the one of the few dangerous sword matchups for Selena, his own Moonbow trigger and a regular attack will KO you, but Selena can't 2HKO in return. If Karel's special won't trigger in time, Selena comfortably 2RKOs, living through both hits with 9 hp left.

Lyn:

37Hp/26(30+)Def is worse than Ryoma, dead even with Fury and +Def.

Deals up to 22 damage when Defiant Atk is active, 18 otherwise with +Atk boon and +3 Atk skill. (31 + 16 + 7 - 32 = 22).

Don't worry about Sol Katti, Swordbreaker laughs at Desperation. (If Lyn is high enough to trigger Swordbreaker herself so she could double, she's too high for Desperation to trigger.)

Brash Assault, Defiant Atk 3 and a Spd boon can still double and 1RKO (Brash cancels Swordbreaker's anti-double effect), but if you're worried about that particular Lyn build, run Fury 3. Lyn would need to either run Fury 3 as well, losing the ability to 1RKO (and Selena 1RKOs on the counter, Swordbreaker still guarantees a double), or else doesn't double (and gets 1RKOd in return.)

Eldigan:

45Hp/34(37+)Def is almost cheating levels of bulk.

Very dangerous to Selena, but in a different way from Karel.

+Atk Fury 3 Eldigan deals 35 + 16 + 3 - 32 = 22. TWENTY-TWO damage. This jerk on a horse 2RKOs Selena and doesn't even have the decency to get 1RKO'd in return. Selena only deals 32 damage to a +Def, Fury Eldigan (who ALSO 2RKOs Selena), who then takes another 6 due to Fury. (45 - 40 = 5 & 45 - 28 (40*.7) + 10 = 27 5 + 27 = 32)

But even after that? The guy still has 7 hp left, 2 more than Selena can do in a single hit. Fortunately Eldigan can't run Fury and Distant Counter at the same time, so just have someone, anyone tap him at 2 range, he'll take 6 damage even if he takes nothing, and then Selena can finish---use reposition to get your chipper the hell away from this guy's horse.

(+Atk Eldigan is cleanly 3HKO'd by Selena, just watchout for Vantage and skill triggers.)

Chrom:

47Hp/31(34+)Def is worse than Eldigan... but not by much.

Selena exactly 1RKOs +Atk Chrom with +3 Atk, taking 27 damage in return. (40 + 16 + 3 - 32 = 27. Deals damage. 45 - 31 = 14 & 45 - 22(31*.7) + 10 = 33 14 + 33 = 47)

Selena deals 42 to +Def boon, +3 Atk Chrom, taking 24 damage in return. (Takes 37 + 16 + 3 - 32 = 24. Deals 45 - 34 = 11 & 45 - 24(34*.7) + 10 = 31. 11 + 31 = 42).

Selena deals 36+(6 Fury) damage to +Def, Fury Chrom, taking 24 damage in return. (Takes 37 + 16 + 3 - 32 = 24. Deals 45 - 37 = 7 & 45 - 26(37*.7) + 10 = 29 7 + 29 = 36).

Basically, no matter whether it's +Def nature and Fury, or Simply +Def nature, Chrom will live with 5 hp left. This means Selena cleanly 2RKOs if Chrom doesn't have Vantage.

Be a little careful about Chrom, unlike Eldigan, you can 1RKO the +Atk, no fury version. Like Eldigan, he lives through both of Selena's hits with Fury or a +Def nature, and 2RKOs in return. Sudden Falchion healing might also mess up combat math if you let Chrom get a second enemy phase.

Fortunately 25 is a horrible, horrible speed tier (Selena doubles even +Spd Chrom at base), so your ranged units should be able to help chip and secure the 1RKO, that's what reposition is for.)

Eliwood:

39/23(26+)Def

Eliwood is a magic tank, not a physical tank, Selena cleanly 1RKOs him no matter what.

Durandal and it's +4 Atk means Eliwood deals a maximum of 25 damage. (34 + 16 + 4 + 3 = 25). Watch out for this number, 25 drops Selena just low enough that she can't tank a +Atk Hector anymore. (Neutral Hector is still food.)

Roy:

44Hp/25(29+)Def is pretty bulky, but Selena barely manages to 1RKO all variants during EP. (During player phase, the Binding Blade's +2 Def will save +Def, Fury variants.)

+Atk Roy with +3 Atk deals 20 damage and gets 1 rounded in return. (Selena takes 16+33+3 - 32 = 20. Deals 57 damage. 45 - 25 = 20 & 45 - 18 (25*.7) + 10 = 37 37 + 20 = 57.)

+Def Roy with Fury deals 17 damage and gets 1 rounded in return.(Selena takes 16 + 30 + 3 - 32 = 17. Deals 45 - 32 = 13 & 45 - 23 (32*.7) + 10 = 32 13 + 32 = 45.)

+Def Roy with Fury during the enemy turn will survive with 2 hp, then Fury takes him down to 1. (45 - 34 = 11 & 45 - 24 (34*.7) + 10 = 31. 11 + 31 = 42)

Corrin(M):

42Hp/28(31+)Def is also pretty bulky, but Selena still manages the 1RKO on all variants.

+Atk Corrin(M) with +3 Atk deals 22 damage and gets 1 rounded in return. (Selena takes 35 + 16 + 3 - 32 = 22. Deals 52 damage. 45 - 28 = 17 & 45 - 20(28*.7) + 10 = 35. 17 + 35 = 52.)

+Def Corrin(M) with Fury deals 19 damage and gets 1 rounded in return. (Selena takes 32 + 16 +3 - 32 = 19. Deals 42 damage. 45 - 34 = 11 & 45 - 24(34*.7) + 10 = 31. 11 + 31 = 42.)

Seliph:

47/30(33+)Def

Note that Brash Assault doesn't do anything if Selena is high enough for Swordbreaker to be active when Seliph attacks. (Brash Negates the anti-double clause of Swordbreaker, but 24 speed can't even double +Spd Reinhardt holding Dire Thunder, much less 35 speed Selena.)

+Atk Seliph with +3 Atk deals 24 damage and gets 1 rounded in return. (Selena takes 37 + 16 + 3 - 32 = 24. Deals 45 - 30 = 15 & 45 - 21 (30*.7) + 10 = 34. 15 + 34 = 49.)

+Atk Seliph with Fury deals 24 damage and takes damage 44 in return, then Fury deals 2 damage, bringing Seliph down to 1 hp. (Selena deals 45 - 33 = 12 & 45 - 24(33 * .7) + 10 = 31 12 + 31 = 44.)

+Def Seliph with Fury deals 21 damage and takes 38 damage in return, then loses 6 more from Fury, taking him down to 3 HP. (Selena takes 34 + 16 + 3 - 32 = 21. Deals 38 damage. 45 - 36 = 9 & 45 - 26(36*.7) + 10 = 29. 9 + 29 = 38.)

Fortunately for Selena, 45 ATK is enough to kill Seliph through Tyrfing's Def +4. (Non-fury variants who run Def + 3 or Hp +5 won't be 3HKOd, so be careful if they pack a damaging special. Selena lives through 2 +Def Seliphs with Hp + 5 with exactly 1 hp, so a damaging special would kill her before she could 2RKO.)

Like Chrom, Selena will really appreciate someone chipping Seliph before the fight, 3 damage will be enough to ensure the 1RKO.

Lon'qu:

45/22(25/26+)Def is not enough to tank Selena. Swordbreaker Lon'qu with a +Spd boon or Fury can double Selena, interestingly enough, and it's lethal with most setups (Killing Edge+ & Glimmer deals 46, and Wo Dao+ & Moonbow should be similar), but nobody ever runs Lon'qu.

+Atk Silver Sword+ Lon'qu with +3 Atk deals 32 + 15 + 3 - 32 = 18 damage.

+Atk Wo Dao+ Lon'qu with +3 Atk deals 32 + 13 + 3 - 32 = 16 damage.

+Atk Killing Edge+ Lon'qu with +3 Atk deals 32 + 11 + 3 - 32 = 14 damage.

All variants are 1 rounded.

Watch out for this guy, Swordbreaker variants can actually 1 round Selena, even Killing Edge+ and a Glimmer activation is enough. (14 + (29+11+3)*1.5 - 32 = 46).

Fortunately, 22 Def and 22 Res, alongside with 45 hp, means that it only takes one 45 MT chip to bring him below Swordbreaker threshold.

Hana:

37Hp/23(26+)Def is even worse bulk than Lon'qu.

Doubles Selena with L&D 3 and, uh, Swordbreaker, a setup you will never, ever see. (Desperation builds are hardcountered by Swordbreaker, and being below Brash Assault threshold---Brash Assault L&D, haha---means Selena 1HKOs on the counter.)

Selena does in fact die to L&D Swordbreaker Hana, but you will seriously never see this setup.

+Atk Hana with L&D 3 and Silver Sword+ deals 26 damage and gets atomized by Selena in return. (Selena takes 38 + 15 + 5 - 32 = 26. Deals 68 damage. 45 - 18 = 27 & 45 - 13 (18*.7) + 10 = 42. 26 + 42 = 68.)

Ogma:

47Hp/28(31+)Def

Note: I'm going to do Brave Sword+ & Death Blow 3 calculations for all other characters, later. (tl;dr Brave Sword+ Death Blow 3 +Atk Chrom 1 shots even Fury 3 Selena. But Chrom is the strongest sword user, and Fury Selena survives everyone else, mostly 1 rounding in return)

+Atk Ogma with Brave Sword+ and Death Blow 3 1 rounds Selena. (Selena takes (38 + 8 + 6 - 32)*2 = 40)

Yeah... If you want to counter kill brave users, run Fury 3. Better yet, have Selena walk up and murder them during player phase. (+Atk Ogma with Brave Sword+ deals only 14 damage during player phase. 38 + 8 - 32 = 14.)

+Atk Ogma with Fury 3 and Brave Sword+ deals 34 damage and gets 1 rounded in return. (Selena takes (38 + 8 + 3 - 32)*2 = 34. Deals 47 damage. 45 - 31 = 14 & 45 - 22 (28*.7) + 10 = 33. 14 + 33 = 47.)

+Def Ogma (lol) with Fury 3 and Brave Sword+ deals 28 damage and takes 42 damage in return, Fury then deals 4 damage, bringing him to 1 hp. (Selena deals 42 damage. 45 - 34 = 11 & 45 - 24 + 10 = 31. 11 + 31 = 42.)

+Attack nature Ogmas are perfectly 1RKOd (do this during player phase, don't let him double Selena), dealing minor damage in return. Fully defensive Ogma (lol) will survive Selena with 5 hp before Fury takes him down to 1 (a 0 damage chip with fury, or 5 damage chip without will allow Selena to 1RKO).

Caeda:

36Hp/24(28+)Def

Like Eliwood, Caeda is more of a magic tank, meaning Selena 1 rounds all variants without issue. (Swordbreaker variants with +Spd nature or Fury can double Selena, take a counter and activate Moonbow for the KO, but Fury 3 on Selena will prevent the KO and allow Selena to kill Caeda during the player phase.)

+Atk Caeda with +3 Atk and Silver Sword+ deals 15 damage and gets 1 rounded in return. (Selena takes 29 + 15 + 3 - 32 = 15. Deals 59 damage. 45 - 24 = 21 & 45 - 17 (24*.7) + 10 = 38. 21 + 38 = 59.)

Palla:

42Hp/28(31\32+)Def

+Atk Palla with Silver Sword+ and +3 Atk deals 20 damage and gets 1 rounded in return. (Selena takes 34 + 15 + 3 - 32 = 20. Deals 45 - 28 = 17 & 45 - 20 + 10 = 35. 17 + 35 = 52.)

Assuming Palla gets 4 def from + nature.

+Def Palla with Silver Sword+ and Fury deals 17 damage and takes 40 damage in return. (Selena deals 45 - 35 = 10 & 45 - 25 + 10 = 30 10 + 30 = 40.)

If Palla gets 4 def from +nature, fully defensive variants will survive with 2 hp, otherwise all variants are cleanly 1RKOd. Defensive variants won't deal more than 17 damage, so Selena would win the duel regardless.

Hinata:

47Hp/35(39+)

Very bulky, surprisingly strong hits, slower than molasses, paper napkin resistance. Wiki is missing +Atk boon, but assuming +nature gives 4 damage and (actually it's probably +3, but whatever):

+Atk Hinata with Silver Sword+ and +3 Atk deals 22 damage and takes 38 in return. (Selena takes 36 + 15 + 3 - 32 = 22. Deals 45 - 36 = 9 & 45 - 26 + 10 = 29. 9 + 29 = 38).

Similar in threat level to Eldigan for Selena, Selena fails to 3HKO even +Atk variants while Hinata 2HKOs in return, so she really needs someone to chip him. Fortunately, he's slow as molasses (27 Spd AFTER Fury 3), so most ranged damage dealers will make short work of him.

Cain:

42Hp/27(31+Def)

All variants are 1 rounded, though +Atk Cain with Death Blow 3 will deal a severe blow unless Selena kills him during the player phase (in which case Cain hits like a pudding).

+Def Cain with Fury 3 and Brave Sword+ deals (32 + 8 + 3 - 32)*2 = 22 damage and gets 1 rounded in return. (Selena deals 45 - 34 = 11 & 45 - 24(34*.7) + 10 = 31 11 + 31 = 42.)

+Atk Cain with Death Blow 3 and Brave Sword+ deals 34 damage. (35 + 8 + 6 - 32)*2 = 34.

+Atk Cain with Brave Sword+ deals 11 damage. (35 + 8 - 32 = 11)

For reference, +Atk Hector deals 12 damage despite WTDA.

{Note: Will need to work on calcs below this}

Laslow:

44Hp/30(33+)Def

Good bulk means that Fury or +Def nature will cause Laslow to survive the 1RKO. 26 Spd means that you'll never see him in arena. (I'm just too lazy to do calcs).

Selena:

37Hp/32(35+)Def

Ah, the Mirror match.

+Atk Selena with Atk +3 and Silver Sword+ WITHOUT Swordbreaker deals 15 damage and gets 1 rounded in return. (Selena deals 45 - 32 = 13 & 45 - 23 +10 = 32. 13 + 32 = 45.)

+Def Selena with Fury 3 and Silver Sword+ WITHOUT Swordbreaker deals 11 damage and takes 30 in return, with Fury dealing 6 damage and bringing her down to 1. (Selena deals 45 - 38 = 7 & 45 - 32 + 10 = 23 7 + 23 = 30.)

Note that even fully defensive Selena is 3HKOd, (even the +3 Def variants, which hit like a wet noodle).

If the opposing Selena has Swordbreaker as well, make sure to finish her on the player phase so that the other Selena's special doesn't trigger. (+Atk Selena 2HKOs this Selena even with just Silver Sword+ and Moonbow.)

Fir:

41Hp/24(27/28+)Def

Worse defenses than Ryoma, Selena 1RKOs all variants.

Identical offenses to Selena, refer to above.

Stahl:

45Hp/30(33/34+)Def

Very bulky, even offensive variants survive Selena. 26 base speed means you'll never see him in arena.

Alfonse:

43Hp/32Def

Fólkvangr variant deals 22 damage and gets 1 rounded in return. (Selena takes 35 + 16 + 3 - 32 = 22. Deals 45 damage. 45 - 32 = 13 & 45 - 23 + 10 = 32. 13 + 32 = 45.)

Brave Sword+ & Death Blow 3 variant deals (35 + 8 + 6 - 32)*2 = 34 damage and gets 1 rounded in return. (Attacking him on player phase means he only deals 35 + 8 - 32 = 11 damage, worse than +Atk Hector.)

R.I.P. Alfonse's hopes and dreams.

Draug:

50Hp/39(42/43+)Def

Absurd bulk (he's an armor).

Just kill him by reposition kiting. (A ranged unit can ding him, and Selena can reposition the ranged unit out of Draug's range without being in Draug's range herself.)

High offenses means that Draug has 2RKO potential on Selena, and Selena can't 3HKO in return. Just have Julia handle it. (WTDA doesn't matter when your armor is made of magic conducting tissue.)

Interestingly, this means that, the higher you are on the Tier list, the easier it is for Selena to murder you. (This is because high tiers tend to sacrifice defense and hp for attack and speed, and the lower tiers, who reverse that, should be food for your ranged units.)

 

 

 

Blues (aka, why Selena needs to run like a little girl and let Julia handle things):

With special thanks to eclipse for a lot of these.

Effie with -Atk bane, Silver lance+, and Death Blow 3 deals (37 + 15 + 6)*1.2 - 32 = 37 damage. That's right, MINUS ATTACK EFFIE will 1HKO Selena. Get the hell out of there, Sev.

Linde with +Atk boon, Aura, and Death Blow 3 deals (38+14+6)*1.2 -24 = 45 damage. 8 points of overkill---not even neutral nature AND a +4 res buff would save Selena. An unoptimized Linde (no Atk boon, no +Atk A skill) would allow Selena to live with 3 hp... assuming Linde didn't get 4 Spd from somewhere, causing Selena to be doubled.

Odin with +Atk boon,  Blarblade+, and Death Blow 3 deals (25 + 13 + 6)*1.2 - 24 = 28 damage. Yeah... Odin's not too great without buffs. HOWEVER, even a single +4 ATK buff and Odin deals (25 + 13 + 6 + 8)*1.2 - 24 = 38 damage, a clean KO. (Note that Death Blow 3 + 4Atk buff and Defiant Attack 3 both give +14 Atk, so a half HP Odin can 1HKO Selena with just the Defiant Attack Buff.)

{Note: I'll need to double check Blade math, Blade tome bonus damage might not be affected by WTA.}

MRobin with +Atk boon, Blárraven+, and Triangle Adept 3 deals (32+11)*1.4 - 24 = 36 damage, so Selena lives with exactly 1 HP.

Ursula with  Blárwolf+ and Death Blow 3 deals (29+10+6)*1.2 - 24 = 30 damage, so Selena lives with 7 HP.

Olwen with +Atk boon, Dire Thunder, and Death Blow 3 deals ((30 + 9 + 6)*1.2 - 24) * 2 = 60 damage.

Reinhardt has similar math, except even a -Atk bane easily 1RKOs.

To put it another way, stop making your -Res sword tank magic hits. Being neutral on Res will make 1RKOs harder for a lot of these characters, but you'll be sacrificing either physical bulk or damage to do so. Not worth it, let the rest of the team handle the blue mages.

 

 

 

Will add more later. But as you can see, Selena cleanly 1 rounds even the most defensive Lucina while keeping enough HP to tank a Hector hit afterwards. Takes barely any damage from green physicals while 1-2 rounding in return, and 1 rounds every every green magical except Merric.

Edited by DehNutCase

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Great writeup. Mind if I ask what about Selena specifically makes her the best option for this setup, like why her over anyone else who can get all these skills?

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This kind of thing is exactly what I love about Skill Inheritance. I applaud the amount of effort that went into making this.

EDIT: Julia aside, are there any other teammates you would recommend? (Or any other units to watch out for besides "basically everything blue"?)

Double EDIT: Also, how does skill inheritance change up calcs? A lot of sword users run with Fury now, for example. How does that affect the Selena's current ORKOs? (Also, at higher levels of Arena, you'll start getting matched up against merged units even without any of your own, speaking from personal experience. Would +0 Selena still be able to secure ORKOs against, say, +10 Lucina?)

Hope I'm not giving you a hard time. I genuinely do think this is awesome, so kudos to you. 

Edited by MaskedAmpharos

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If you're doing an analysis, you must also include things that completely screw Selena over, and by how much.  "Blue tome users" is pretty vague.  So, here's a better analysis on why Selena tanking blue units is a really bad idea:

- Effie is really bad news.  She has 55 MT alone, not counting weapon disadvantage/Death Blow.  DO NOT TANK.
- Assuming I have Swordbreaker's description correct, Abel will also ORKO.
- Reinhardt will ORKO her, easily.  Linde, not so much (but it's gonna hurt like hell, since neutral Linde has 49 MT to Selena's 24 RES).
- Unfortunately, the wiki's down, so I can't do any more blue comparisons.  Wanted to do Sully (probably not a ORKO, but it's pretty significant)/Robin/Nowi/F!Corrin/Odin (as in, how many buffs it would take before he becomes an issue).

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@eclipse Yeah, I'll be adding more reasons Selena gets completely destroyed once I have more time, this is more of a work in progress template.

Edit:

@BANRYU I mostly picked Selena because I happened to like her character design, but a secondary reason is her great bulk and 'barely enough' offenses. While it does mean she'll miss some important 1RKOs down the line, it also means that stats are almost perfectly distributed, no excess ATK or SPD that could've gone into DEF or HP, for example. I'll need to run more numbers, later, to compare her to other sword lords.

@MaskedAmpharos The short answer is: Hell if I know, I'll need to run more numbers.

The long answer is: I have a feeling inheritance won't change much, I already took Fury into account in the Lucina matchup (Fury Lucina is destroyed even with Def boon, speed doesn't matter unless Lucina has Swordbreaker or something similar, and I'm pretty sure Lucina's base speed is only 1 above Selena's, meaning even with Fury and Swordbreaker Lucina isn't fast enough to double.)

+10 etc. Lucinas will be a problem, but Selena's 3* base helps her here---she'll be easier to +up than Lucina. Besides, even fully defensive Lucina (Def boon and Fury) is 1RKO'd at +0, so I have a feeling it won't matter too much. Since if you have a +10 Lucina it's probably going to be +ATK/+SPD rather than +Def.

Def boon is +4 def for Lucina, and so is +10 levels on Lucina, so if you're +10 but NOT Def boon, Selena will 1 round you.

Edit: Nevermind, Selena will need +1 ATK to 1 round, Lucina+10 also gets 4 hp, meaning normally she'd survive with 2 after a double---Selena needs to be high enough in +levels to get a point in attack, I'll probably make a chart of her +level stat gains once I roll up some 5* copies of her.

Some insane kind of +10 Swordbreaker Lucina will be hell, however, unless you manage to lower their speed with threaten speed first.

Edited by DehNutCase

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12 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

 

@MaskedAmpharos The short answer is: Hell if I know, I'll need to run more numbers.

The long answer is: I have a feeling inheritance won't change much, I already took Fury into account in the Lucina matchup (Fury Lucina is destroyed even with Def boon, speed doesn't matter unless Lucina has Swordbreaker or something similar, and I'm pretty sure Lucina's base speed is only 1 above Selena's, meaning even with Fury and Swordbreaker Lucina isn't fast enough to double.)

+10 etc. Lucinas will be a problem, but Selena's 3* base helps her here---she'll be easier to +up than Lucina. Besides, even fully defensive Lucina (Def boon and Fury) is 1RKO'd at +0, so I have a feeling it won't matter too much. Since if you have a +10 Lucina it's probably going to be +ATK/+SPD rather than +Def.

True enough. I imagine it won't be much of a problem, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask. Run her through Arena later and let us know how it goes!

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Managed to get the max stats table open.  I can do Odin's math, at least!

Neutral Odin at 5* will have a whopping 35 MT with his native tome.  Selena can take 61 points of magic damage before she's OHKO'd.  Since Odin has weapon advantage, he needs to hit 51 MT.  This means:

- An attack buff and two other buffs
- Defiant Attack and one other buff (or a straight-up Spur Atk would do it)

In other words, if he's at half health, he's a huge threat.  I'm crazy enough to get a +Spd variant and give him Desperation, since my go-to tactic is stat manipulation.

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7 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Managed to get the max stats table open.  I can do Odin's math, at least!

Neutral Odin at 5* will have a whopping 35 MT with his native tome.  Selena can take 61 points of magic damage before she's OHKO'd.  Since Odin has weapon advantage, he needs to hit 51 MT.  This means:

- An attack buff and two other buffs
- Defiant Attack and one other buff (or a straight-up Spur Atk would do it)

In other words, if he's at half health, he's a huge threat.  I'm crazy enough to get a +Spd variant and give him Desperation, since my go-to tactic is stat manipulation.

Tbh I feel like with Skill Inheritance upon us, no one uses Odin anymore (barring those that just like him or can't get the units I'm about to mention) as Linde or Ursula with Blarblade are superior at doing Odin's job in just about every way. Since a lot of people are transferring Blarblade to them, I'd also run calcs with those units to see how Selena fares (which I imagine to be "not well"). 

Not to mention all the people sacrificing Odin to give other characters Moonbow. Poor Odin...

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1 hour ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

This kind of thing is exactly what I love about Skill Inheritance. I applaud the amount of effort that went into making this.

This. Negatives aside (like ranged/close counter potentially everywhere), I love that you can make way more characters usable now, meaning that with some love and care you can usually make your favorites at least pretty damn good even if they weren't before this addition.

I really like Selena(both as a unit and a character), and I was using a 4* of her on my team for about all of February since I had no other good red units, and she served me well even then. So it's nice to see her get some love. While I can't say she's stealing Lucina or Ryoma's thunder, she'll definitely be more than competent with this kind of build. I still wouldn't want her near any blue units with high attack, but she could probably tank a hit from some of the more middling-attack stat ones better than most. And body blocking for you mage or what-have-you can be really important. Hopefully she doesn't run into other sword users pulling the same Swordbreaker deal as her, as I don't think she'd like trying to wall some of the stronger ones without the advantage. Luckily Lucina, Ryoma and such will probably stick to other more generally offensive skills.

I feel like Chrom could try a similar tanky Swordbreaker set to this though, since he's bulkier physically and it makes his speed a non-issue. But he doesn't want to take hits from even green mages, so Selena's got the edge there. Plus her speed's pretty good so she won't get doubled constantly by every non-sword unit.

Edited by Alkaid

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33 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

Tbh I feel like with Skill Inheritance upon us, no one uses Odin anymore (barring those that just like him or can't get the units I'm about to mention) as Linde or Ursula with Blarblade are superior at doing Odin's job in just about every way. Since a lot of people are transferring Blarblade to them, I'd also run calcs with those units to see how Selena fares (which I imagine to be "not well"). 

Not to mention all the people sacrificing Odin to give other characters Moonbow. Poor Odin...

Poor Odin indeed!  Let's say that someone else gets his tome, and that the person has neutral Attack.

- Linde needs one buff to OHKO Selena (+Atk Linde OHKOs on her own)
- Olwen needs one less non-attack buff than Odin, so I don't know why you'd do this
- Thanks to Death Blow, Ursula needs one buff (subtract out 6 from Death Blow and that leaves 45 MT; she'll have 42 MT with Odin's weapon)
- If you really want to swap out Robin's tome for Odin's, I'll just shrug and move on with life.  However, he'll need an attack buff and another buff to OHKO Selena.
- No.  We are not getting rid of Reinhardt's Dire Thunder.  But if you're that bent on making yourself miserable, Reinhardt needs an attack buff.  That's it.

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8 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

@BANRYU I mostly picked Selena because I happened to like her character design, but a secondary reason is her great bulk and 'barely enough' offenses. While it does mean she'll miss some important 1RKOs down the line, it also means that stats are almost perfectly distributed, no excess ATK or SPD that could've gone into DEF or HP, for example. I'll need to run more numbers, later, to compare her to other sword lords.

Heh yeah don't worry, I can absolutely appreciate reasons of bias xD The nice thing about THAT in turn, IMO, is that people who like those characters that aren't considered 'best' have the interest needed to look into them and see what's needed for them to objectively shine. So that said, I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with ~3o

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4 hours ago, BANRYU said:

Heh yeah don't worry, I can absolutely appreciate reasons of bias xD The nice thing about THAT in turn, IMO, is that people who like those characters that aren't considered 'best' have the interest needed to look into them and see what's needed for them to objectively shine. So that said, I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with ~3o

I call dibs on Raigh and Virion.  The latter is a fixture on my arena team, and I have a lot of weird uses for the former.

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1 hour ago, eclipse said:

I call dibs on Raigh and Virion.  The latter is a fixture on my arena team, and I have a lot of weird uses for the former.

Well, with Gronnblade Cecilia quickly gaining ground with the advent of skill inheritance, maybe Raigh will soon get his chance to shine.

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21 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

Max level stats (taken from wiki): 37 HP/25 ATK/35 SPD/32 DEF/28 RES

After (+Atk/-Res) nature: 37 HP/29 ATK/35 SPD/32 DEF/24 RES

You neglected to consider that literally anybody swordie in which Selena fights w/ Swordbreaker can theoretically also run Swordbreaker, in a mirrored setup, dropping her effectiveness in combat vs the likes of Marth, Lucina, Ryoma and Eirika in mirror matched scenarios, which have the same chances of existing as Swordbreaker Selena.

Nice numbers though. I'm not buying that she's a bat unit (like i debated with you in the other thread), just that she's a poor man's swordlord replacement

Edited by Elieson

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8 hours ago, Elieson said:

You neglected to consider that literally anybody swordie in which Selena fights w/ Swordbreaker can theoretically also run Swordbreaker, in a mirrored setup, dropping her effectiveness in combat vs the likes of Marth, Lucina, Ryoma and Eirika in mirror matched scenarios, which have the same chances of existing as Swordbreaker Selena.

Nice numbers though. I'm not buying that she's a bat unit (like i debated with you in the other thread), just that she's a poor man's swordlord replacement

Selena's main advantage is that a lot of her 1RKOs cost her few enough HP that she's 'Takumi Safe.' That is, she can 1RKO someone and still tank a +Atk Takumi's arrow to the face. (Everyone who does less than 19 damage to her is 'Takumi Safe.' Generally speaking, every other sword lord either has worse bulk than Selena or gets doubled by Takumi.)

Her biggest problem is that she really wants to get +3 defense from somewhere (35 defense let's her tank both a +Atk Lucina AND a +Atk Takumi in the same turn), while also wanting just a tad more Atk (1 or 2 points, a skill like Strong-Riposte counterpart to Death Blow would be amazing for Selena.) to secure kills on some fully defensive variants.

That's probably something I'll be adding to team options, mentioning that she'd really like some Atk and Defense buffs.

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2 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Selena's main advantage is that a lot of her 1RKOs cost her few enough HP that she's 'Takumi Safe.' That is, she can 1RKO someone and still tank a +Atk Takumi's arrow to the face. (Everyone who does less than 19 damage to her is 'Takumi Safe.' Generally speaking, every other sword lord either has worse bulk than Selena or gets doubled by Takumi.)

Her biggest problem is that she really wants to get +3 defense from somewhere (35 defense let's her tank both a +Atk Lucina AND a +Atk Takumi in the same turn), while also wanting just a tad more Atk (1 or 2 points, a skill like Strong-Riposte counterpart to Death Blow would be amazing for Selena.) to secure kills on some fully defensive variants.

That's probably something I'll be adding to team options, mentioning that she'd really like some Atk and Defense buffs.

Takumi isn't as much of a threat as he was back then due to skill inheritance (triangle adept robin), so being "Takumi safe" isn't really much of a draw. The current meta revolves around ORKOs, so extra bulk at the cost of offensive stats is not a very good trade off. Selena can still be used effectively, I'm not denying that, but her lack of a 16mt signature weapon hurts her viability.

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@Korath88

*Shrug* The way I see it, overkill offenses is just a waste of BST, whereas 'good enough' means you have more points to funnel into Hp, Def, and Res. (Selena losing 4 res with a Res bane really hurts her here, but the only other option is -spd, and I still need to do calcs for greens before I can decide if it's worth losing her 35 base speed.)

It should be noted that Selena still 1RKO the vast majority of red swords, the only ones who survive are Defensive Karel, All Eldigan, Defensive Chrom, Defensive Seliph, Defensive Marth, All Stahl, All Hinata, Defensive Laslow, Defensive Alfonse, Defensive Selena, and... Draug.

Basically, everyone who isn't a defensive variant (that is, a unit that purposely sacrificed offense for defense), is either Eldigan---24 base speed, Stahl---26 base speed, Hinata---24 base speed, or Draug---actually very good speed, but he's an armor.

To put it another way, every 'good' unit is 1 rounded by Selena.

Edited by DehNutCase

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3 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

@Korath88

*Shrug* The way I see it, overkill offenses is just a waste of BST, whereas 'good enough' means you have more points to funnel into Hp, Def, and Res. (Selena losing 4 res with a Res bane really hurts her here, but the only other option is -spd, and I still need to do calcs for greens before I can decide if it's worth losing her 35 base speed.)

It should be noted that Selena still 1RKO the vast majority of red swords, the only ones who survive are Defensive Karel, All Eldigan, Defensive Chrom, Defensive Seliph, Defensive Marth, All Stahl, All Hinata, Defensive Laslow, Defensive Alfonse, Defensive Selena, and... Draug.

Basically, everyone who isn't a defensive variant (that is, a unit that purposely sacrificed offense for defense), is either Eldigan---24 base speed, Stahl---26 base speed, Hinata---24 base speed, or Draug---actually very good speed, but he's an armor.

To put it another way, every 'good' unit is 1 rounded by Selena.

The thing is, how many red swords does one normally see on a single team? Usually when I play the arena, each team only has one sword lord(almost always Lucina), and around 2 blues. Units like Draug and Laslow are never seen in the arena, so calcs for them are mostly irrelevant. This leaves maybe one or two kills(if there's a Hector) for your set, and the same red units can be just as easily dispatched by a blue without having to worry about swordbreaker.

 

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1 minute ago, Korath88 said:

The thing is, how many red swords does one normally see on a single team? Usually when I play the arena, each team only has one sword lord(almost always Lucina), and around 2 blues. Units like Draug and Laslow are never seen in the arena, so calcs for them are mostly irrelevant. This leaves maybe one or two kills(if there's a Hector) for your set, and the same red units can be just as easily dispatched by a blue without having to worry about swordbreaker.

 

I might've mostly did the math vs. Swordlords, but Selena is actually only a red 'check' not a red counter. She counters greens.

Defensive Nino and Speed Neutral Merric survives Selena, but every other green caster is one rounded. (Merric does almost the same damage as Lucina to Selena, thanks to Res bane, but that can't be helped).

The only 3 physical greens with above 31 speed (that is, more speed than base Selena can double), are: Camilla, Minerva, and Anna. Everyone else needs defensive Hector levels of bulk to survive being 1 rounded. And even the strongest of them, +Atk, Death Blow 3, Brave Axe+ Cherche only does 24 damage. (Cherche does 8 damage during the player phase).

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That being said, when compared to other sword units, such as the two most popular swords in the arena, Lucina and Ryoma, the former is used for her ability to kill dragons while the latter is used for distant counter, while also countering greens and being able to 1v1 opposing swords like Selena. Does Selena have any other draws to differentiate herself from the lords?

A suggestion for the main post would be to add calculations for other meta units like Tiki(Y), and add a final evaluation on whether it is worth sacrificing a 5* Karel to make the set, especially for those who already have a sword lord at their disposal.

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Yeah, I was planning to do some calcs comparing Selena with this build with Karel---because it's his sword she's using, and some of the other lords as well.

That said, it'll be a long while in coming, since I'm planning to have most of the matchups done before comparing Selena with her alternatives. And so far I'm not even completely done with red swords yet.

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14 hours ago, Elieson said:

Nice numbers though. I'm not buying that she's a bat unit (like i debated with you in the other thread), just that she's a poor swordlord replacement

I guess with things like Sol or either draining life, she could be a bat indeed. (Sorry, couldn't resist >.>)

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@DehNutCase would you have any interest in putting this build on the FE Heroes wiki (or, failing that, would you have any objection to me copypasta'ing your analysis to there with appropriate credit given)?

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@BANRYU Feel free to put it on the wiki if you want, though the analysis is still mostly incomplete at this point. I'm still waiting on the SP needed to inherit everything she needs before I start work on good allies section (which will probably take another round of SP grinding on said allies), and match-ups other than sword lords. (Wo Dao+ is damn expensive, and, while I have about 2 dozen Hinatas and Hanas, I don't have any Gordins : / Might try pulling a (S)Chrom and giving Atk/Def + 2 a spin.)

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42 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

@BANRYU Feel free to put it on the wiki if you want, though the analysis is still mostly incomplete at this point. I'm still waiting on the SP needed to inherit everything she needs before I start work on good allies section (which will probably take another round of SP grinding on said allies), and match-ups other than sword lords. (Wo Dao+ is damn expensive, and, while I have about 2 dozen Hinatas and Hanas, I don't have any Gordins : / Might try pulling a (S)Chrom and giving Atk/Def + 2 a spin.)

No worries on that front I think; a lot of builds people have been coming up with are pretty far into the realm of theorycrafting, so I wouldn't sweat it too bad. Also, wikis can be edited so it can always be improved later haha. 

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