Do You Think They Changed Some Characters Too Much?

[Azure Sen]

13 minutes ago, KliffIsTheOG said:

For the sake of argument, if you added a skin colored pixel to the filled in black pixel when talking, his mouth would appear ridiculously tall.

Do we have any other characters who talk whose initial portrait has an open mouth for comparison?

No one's portrait has an open mouth, and everyone's mouths are animated the same way (two frames, one open and one closed with the closed one being the default, to give the illusion of the mouth, specifically the lower lip, moving).

[TheWill]

9 hours ago, The DanMan said:

What I'm saying is that, considering the characters who weren't re-designed had their original art treated as a loose base, they may as well have been doing things from scratch anyways. They decided to change a few of them-- so what? They had no defined character or anything besides their portrait and stats. FE3 onward gave characters at least some personality and characters starting from that point kept fairly consistent designs. Gaiden, not the case.

And really, what does it matter? This whole thing is complaining about a change for the sake of complaining. Discussion's just going in a circle.

The thing is, you're using lack of character as justification as means to an end. The lack of character does not excuse completely overhauling what little identity the character had. There was no need to completely redesign Boey, Deen, etc. They could've updated them and made a great new design with a throwback to the initial design similar to other characters like Alm/Mae/etc. This is something that no one has been able to refute. 

53 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

No one's portrait has an open mouth, and everyone's mouths are animated the same way (two frames, one open and one closed with the closed one being the default, to give the illusion of the mouth, specifically the lower lip, moving).

Unlike Abel, no artwork of Kliff suggests he had a bucktooth. Thus, whilst in Abel's case it may have been a bucktooth which is supported by his original FE1 art, in Kliff's case it's an open-mouth as that is supported by all his artwork.  

Edited May 14, 2017 by SlipperySlippy

[Azure Sen]

14 minutes ago, SlipperySlippy said:

Unlike Abel, no artwork of Kliff suggests he had a bucktooth. Thus, whilst in Abel's case it may have been a bucktooth which is supported by his original FE1 art, in Kliff's case it's an open-mouth as that is supported by all his artwork.  

1. If you look at the talk animation in Gaiden, you can clearly see Kliff's mouth moving from from underneath the bucktooth (refer also to the comparison picture I posted on the last page showing his mouth in its open and closed frames, and the link unique provided). 

2. If Kliff’s mouth is supposed to be open in its default state, then why is his talk sprite his mouth opening wider instead of closing?

3. For that matter, why would Kliff be the only character to have a portrait with an open mouth by default?

4. And why would Kliff be the only person whose open mouth frame included a whatever that flesh-colored protrusion is supposed to be if it isn't a bucktooth?

Edited May 14, 2017 by AzureSen

[TheWill]

Just now, AzureSen said:

1. If you look at the talk animation in Gaiden, you can clearly see Kliff's mouth moving from from underneath the bucktooth (refer also to the comparison picture I posted on the last page showing his mouth in its open and closed frames). 

2. If Kliff’s mouth is supposed to be open in its default state, then why is his talk sprite his mouth opening wider instead of closing?

3. For that matter, why would Kliff be the only character to have a portrait with an open mouth by default?

I understand your argument, but all the artwork clearly indicates Kliff is not meant to have a bucktooth, regardless of what the sprite shows. Even with Abel, the case of a bucktooth vs. open mouth is left up to interpretation, as it could be interpreted as either without looking at alternate artwork. Potentially, the FE2 sprite could very well be a bucktooth, but Kliff was never meant to be associated with a bucktooth, unlike Abel. So, even though it was a bucktooth for Abel, it doesn't set a precedent for Kliff. 

[Azure Sen]

7 minutes ago, SlipperySlippy said:

I understand your argument, but all the artwork clearly indicates Kliff is not meant to have a bucktooth, regardless of what the sprite shows. Even with Abel, the case of a bucktooth vs. open mouth is left up to interpretation, as it could be interpreted as either without looking at alternate artwork. Potentially, the FE2 sprite could very well be a bucktooth, but Kliff was never meant to be associated with a bucktooth, unlike Abel. So, even though it was a bucktooth for Abel, it doesn't set a precedent for Kliff. 

Or the later artists could have changed it like they did for Abel in Mystery of the Emblem? And even if that were the case the artwork doesn't mean anything because none of it is Gaiden's official art (and it comes from The Complete, which wasn't drawn by the same artist and got a lot of designs wrong). In comparison Abel's artwork I posed is the official art for FE1, drawn by the character designer for FE1.

And since you missed it because I edited my post, what is that particular bit supposed to be if not a bucktooth and why is Kliff the only person who has it in their open mouth frame?

[maybe]

6 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

Or the later artists could have changed it like they did for Abel in Mystery of the Emblem? And even if that were the case the artwork doesn't mean anything because none of it is Gaiden's official art (and it comes from The Complete, which wasn't drawn by the same artist and got a lot of designs wrong). In comparison Abel's artwork I posed is the official art for FE1, drawn by the character designer for FE1.

And since you missed it because I edited my post, what is that particular bit supposed to be if not a bucktooth and why is Kliff the only person who has it in their open mouth frame?

wasn't the reason it was brought up because of inconsistencies though? if he has it in the game and not in his art, doesn't that just add to the inconsistencies?

[Azure Sen]

3 minutes ago, unique said:

wasn't the reason it was brought up because of inconsistencies though? if he has it in the game and not in his art, doesn't that just add to the inconsistencies?

Yes, that is the reason I brought it up originally. I only brought it up in this context because, like with Abel, Kliff not having a bucktooth in later art doesn't mean he didn't originally have one or he wasn't meant to have one. It just means that a later artist didn't like it and changed it.

Edited May 14, 2017 by AzureSen

[Hardin]

For the record, Kliff does have official art for Gaiden. 

[Doof]

Honestly, keeping this topic open is kind of useless? Were some characters changed too much? Yes, they were.

Were those changes good? It's up to each individual person because, hey, personal preferences! Keeping it open is gonna just prompt more of those "delightful" back and forths we just had a page ago. That's not even civil discussion :/

[TheWill]

3 hours ago, AzureSen said:

Or the later artists could have changed it like they did for Abel in Mystery of the Emblem? And even if that were the case the artwork doesn't mean anything because none of it is Gaiden's official art (and it comes from The Complete, which wasn't drawn by the same artist and got a lot of designs wrong). In comparison Abel's artwork I posed is the official art for FE1, drawn by the character designer for FE1.

And since you missed it because I edited my post, what is that particular bit supposed to be if not a bucktooth and why is Kliff the only person who has it in their open mouth frame?

The thing is, whilst The Complete artwork was done after the game sprite (and thus, your statement regarding it initially being a bucktooth and then later being changed in his Complete artwork could entirely be possible), it is still artwork created based on the Gaiden mugs and thus, meant to be representative of the sprites. Whilst you mentioned that 'The Complete' had a lot of designs wrong, it still remains one of the more accurate artistic depictions of the Gaiden cast, with the main issue being that of colour inconsistencies over anything else. Unlike the artwork used in the instruction pamphlet where characters such as Silque, the villagers, the Whitewings (except Palla), Valbur and Boey were grossly inaccurate when compared to their in-game counterpart, The Complete clearly referenced the mugs, hence Alm's artwork having blue hair in his artwork. 

[The DanMan]

14 hours ago, SlipperySlippy said:

The thing is, you're using lack of character as justification as means to an end. The lack of character does not excuse completely overhauling what little identity the character had. There was no need to completely redesign Boey, Deen, etc. They could've updated them and made a great new design with a throwback to the initial design similar to other characters like Alm/Mae/etc. This is something that no one has been able to refute. 

They could have, but they didn't.
And there was so little to them that I don't see any point in continually complaining and arguing about it. 

[Baldrick]

11 hours ago, The DanMan said:

They could have, but they didn't.
And there was so little to them that I don't see any point in continually complaining and arguing about it. 

IMO they should have.

If you don't want to talk about it, don't. Nobody's forcing you to post.

[LoyalKing32]

5 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

IMO they should have.

If you don't want to talk about it, don't. Nobody's forcing you to post.

Nah. Forsyth would look terrible with his edgy old design that doesn't fit with his new actual personality.

[Augestein]

22 hours ago, Doof said:

Honestly, keeping this topic open is kind of useless? Were some characters changed too much? Yes, they were.

Were those changes good? It's up to each individual person because, hey, personal preferences! Keeping it open is gonna just prompt more of those "delightful" back and forths we just had a page ago. That's not even civil discussion :/

That's the thing though, I don't think any of the characters were changed too much. With how they look now, they are designed uniquely enough to actually be memorable based on their appearances alone. Too many of them were palette swaps because of space limitations, so it's nice to see some updated appearances. 

[Party Moth]

Gods above, this thread is a nightmare.

While I don't have much love for the old Gaiden designs, I had trouble perusing the portraits due to inability to recognize certain characters. Most units don't have this problem, but a few (such as Atlas and Boey) were astonishingly difficult for me to identify. I wonder how the people who played this game 25 years ago are taking it?

One potential reason why I see this issue popping up has to do with the earlier discussion of Archanean design overhauls. Characters such as Tomas and Gordin and the Whitewings have had two or three games over the years to refine gradual design changes, leading to a more natural branching off in their designs. Valentian characters, however, have had no treatment outside of their original debut until now, giving little attention or care for gradual updates.

The new designs aren't the end of the world for me, though if the presentation of Hidari's art wasn't so smooth and lovely to look at I would probably have a more negative opinion on the design changes.

[Baldrick]

12 minutes ago, Augestein said:

That's the thing though, I don't think any of the characters were changed too much. With how they look now, they are designed uniquely enough to actually be memorable based on their appearances alone. Too many of them were palette swaps because of space limitations, so it's nice to see some updated appearances. 

Not even Boey and Jenny? They weren't palette swaps, and were more memorable than Paison and Leon. Everyone should have gotten the treatment the two archers did.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

23 minutes ago, Party Moth said:

Gods above, this thread is a nightmare.

While I don't have much love for the old Gaiden designs, I had trouble perusing the portraits due to inability to recognize certain characters. Most units don't have this problem, but a few (such as Atlas and Boey) were astonishingly difficult for me to identify. I wonder how the people who played this game 25 years ago are taking it?

One potential reason why I see this issue popping up has to do with the earlier discussion of Archanean design overhauls. Characters such as Tomas and Gordin and the Whitewings have had two or three games over the years to refine gradual design changes, leading to a more natural branching off in their designs. Valentian characters, however, have had no treatment outside of their original debut until now, giving little attention or care for gradual updates.

The new designs aren't the end of the world for me, though if the presentation of Hidari's art wasn't so smooth and lovely to look at I would probably have a more negative opinion on the design changes.

Even in FE3, the first game to feature them and more importantly a remake, they still branched their designs off- look at the designs of Gordin and Tomas in FE3, same for Navarre and Michalis in FE3 as well. 11/12 was more or less just updating the FE3 designs and maybe branching them off more, but FE3 was the one to branch them off first and it did so decently well with the microscopic portraits FE3 had

Echoes could very well have branched off and updated their designs and the fact they updated Deen's design, kept it, but then for no reason threw it at Vrai is one of the major points here

Edited May 15, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Party Moth]

4 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Even in FE3, the first game to feature them and more importantly a remake, they still branched their designs off- look at the designs of Gordin and Tomas in FE3, same for Navarre and Michalis in FE3 as well. 11/12 was more or less just updating the FE3 designs and maybe branching them off more, but FE3 was the one to branch them off first and it did so decently well with the microscopic portraits FE3 had

Echoes could very well have branched off and updated their designs and the fact they updated Deen's design, kept it, but then for no reason threw it at Vrai is one of the major points here

FE3 was also done in 1994, only a few years after the original with Kaga still on board, whereas Echoes is here 25 years later. The staff now may not have the same love for Deen as Kaga and crew probably had for Navarre and Michalis when the Famicom titles were still fairly fresh.

Still, I understand where you're coming from. Truth be told, if they radically changed Mycen's design in particular, I probably would be upset.

[Slumber]

I think Polnareff has been a butt monkey in Jojo for so long that they thought people wouldn't take Deen seriously if he had his old design, so Vrai got it. 

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

3 minutes ago, Party Moth said:

FE3 was also done in 1994, only a few years after the original with Kaga still on board, whereas Echoes is here 25 years later. The staff now may not have the same love for Deen as Kaga and crew probably had for Navarre and Michalis when the Famicom titles were still fairly fresh.

Still, I understand where you're coming from. Truth be told, if they radically changed Mycen's design in particular, I probably would be upset.

I feel like anyone that appeared in awakening's spotpass should have been left alone; Boey as you said is near impossible to recognize but if he at the very least had green hair I'd guess it might be Boey as an example. Awakening is a recent enough appearance that the people from Gaiden that appeared there are fresh in everyone's minds.

 

in fact, Alm's Echoes design seems to take some cues from his DLC artwork from Awakening, which is probably even more reason to keep everyone at least reasonably resembling their Awakening designs.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Augestein]

29 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Not even Boey and Jenny? They weren't palette swaps, and were more memorable than Paison and Leon. Everyone should have gotten the treatment the two archers did.

And if you look, Jenny's design isn't that far from original Genny. They both still have pink hair and they both still wear pinkish dresses. Admittedly she's showing a bit more leg in the Echoes version, but then again, we can't tell if that's just from the angle and And Boey had inconsistent artwork anyways. Unless I'm seriously having a hard time with Genny's coloration, the dress still seems to be pink hued, just less vibrant than before, which is fine, because it's no longer 8-bit... If Paison and Leon get a pass from you, then Jenny definitely should too. 

Boey is the only one that has a far departure really. 

Edited May 15, 2017 by Augestein

[LoyalKing32]

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

Not even Boey and Jenny? They weren't palette swaps, and were more memorable than Paison and Leon. Everyone should have gotten the treatment the two archers did.

Genny bares a resemblance to her Gaiden counterpart. She has the pink hair and that pink dress. I immediately recognized Genny and that was one of the first Echoes redesigns I ever saw.

 

Sorry buddy Boey needed an upgrade. He's not consistent to begin with. At least his old design with the red hair is on a generic male mage. 

Edited May 15, 2017 by LoyalKing32

[Baldrick]

1 hour ago, Augestein said:

And if you look, Jenny's design isn't that far from original Genny. They both still have pink hair and they both still wear pinkish dresses. Admittedly she's showing a bit more leg in the Echoes version, but then again, we can't tell if that's just from the angle and And Boey had inconsistent artwork anyways. Unless I'm seriously having a hard time with Genny's coloration, the dress still seems to be pink hued, just less vibrant than before, which is fine, because it's no longer 8-bit... If Paison and Leon get a pass from you, then Jenny definitely should too. 

Boey is the only one that has a far departure really. 

Paison and Leon gets passes because their hair remains similar. Genny goes from a pink, tied-up ponytail to an orange shoulder-length bobcut (admittedly it's not that dramatic, but it's random nonetheless). If Boey had green hair I could possibly give him a pass, 

Edited May 15, 2017 by Baldrick

[Tsak]

3 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Paison and Leon gets passes because their hair remains similar. Genny goes from a tied-up ponytail to a shoulder-length bobcut (admittedly it's not that dramatic, but it's random nonetheless). If Boey had green hair I could possibly give him a pass, 

Boey can change his hair color whenever he wants. He's a strong single man who don't need no lady.

[Baldrick]

1 minute ago, Tsak said:

Boey can change his hair color whenever he wants. He's a strong single man who don't need no lady.

If Boey wants a place in my army he's got to shape up and get that gaudy stuff out of his hair. Otherwise, I'll tie him down and give him a Vrai cut.