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Colonel M

FE6 Tier List - Redux

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11 hours ago, Irysa said:

Yeah I understand. It mostly comes down to whether oneshotting one or two Wyverns, denting a few Paladins and Heroes, and Bolting chipping a boss or occaisonal enemies someone might miss or w/e adds a notable amount of reliability. I feel like it's a better payoff than most others in the lower tiers are doing for you though, easily.

Nets a huge amount of gold via stealing stuff over the course of the game, aka more Boots. He also has above average combat in the Isles and isn't so frail as to die to LRT in later chapters without training.

 

Regarding this and other comments you were making, Rutger has pretty crap luck too man and we're not docking him for that. The reality is that most units Echidna is fighting pull relatively low hitrates on her naturally anyway, same as Rutger, and she doesn't have to engage them at 1 range either. Bartre also has much worse skill, and you're hyping up accuracy and reliability, where Bartre's only accurate weapon is an Iron Bow. It suffices vs most enemy types but do't get ahead of yourself. Bartre also starts to get doubled later in the game. I'd say Echidna does outperform him in Ilia given Echidna can ORKO enemies on EP there wheras Bartre can't. In Sacae Bartre is getting doubled and can barely hit the Nomads.

And no, Bows are not a better side weapon than Swords. Echidna can use the Light Brand, Armorslayer, Wyrmslayer, Killing Edge, all of which have good utility and give her Weapon Triangle control. Bartre has Iron/Steel/Short Bows. Chipping Wyverns is nice but we could easily just deploy Klein or Igrene instead to oneshot them, or actually stand a chance of doubling them. Bartre's accuracy is also very questionable with Steel Bows, and it doesnt let him oneshot anything.

Neither Echidna nor Bartre require us to buy extra weaponry to make good use of them, and both Echidna and Bartre like to use the Killer Axe so that logic doesn't make sense. Echidna also has an existant Res Stat so she can dodge Status Staves and stuff with a Barrier Boost, something Bartre has to gamble on.

And finally, Bartre route does get you an extra Energy Ring and Angelic Robe (and have easier bosses), but it takes longer (for both maps, assuming full recruitment, gets sigificantly worse if not assuming full recruitment), Klein and Tate get lowered stats (due to the way HM bonuses work), you have to deploy one of Lott or Wade to get useful items in the village map, and to even get the Energy Ring you have to kill the Iron Ballista, which neccessitates rigging a dodge on a flier to kill it before it kills any civilians.

Fae has unique utility for some of the more difficult maps due to her ability to burn Siege Tomes and act as a Status lure. Lugh only really has 2 Chapters less than Lot of contributions and his chip is reliable and fairly large for that point in the game in Chapter 4, and he doesn't take counters or get OHKO'd, wheras Lot gets doubled when using the Halberd against most Cavs (borderline ORKO'd, would need to be mended or protected if he misses). Lugh is also pretty welcome in Chapter 7, the hardest in the game, because he has decent Chip on most of the bulkier enemies again.

I agree with you that Lot is a little underrated and never truly bad, just never particularly good (bar vs Soldiers), but Lugh has niches early on that make him valuable wheras Lot's biggest claim to fame early is mostly just doing good vs Soldiers and existing without being trashy. Lugh does need a significant amount of favoritism to start making bigger contributions, but Lot is going to be unpromoted for quite a bit too anyway, so he's not exactly doing great either, especially since he's not as easily rescuable by infantry units compared to Lugh. Lugh eventually gets to ORKOing mooks status, Lot basically never gets there and will always be relying on crits (which is not actually terrible mind, given it's how most units in this game get ORKOs)

Can't be rescued after promotion except by unpromoted Shanna and Shin, both units who have better things to be doing. He also needs that promotion to stay relevant. He's garbage.

Geese can break walls in Chapters 11L and 12 due to Brave Axe access (although admittedly one will have Echidna or Bartre if you were waiting around anyway at that point so 12 doesn't really count). But breaking a wall in 11L is better than pretty much anything Mr. 5 move unrescuable not that accurate does.

He gets a village in Ch1, can help with the Armorslayer trade chain and possible rescuedrop to the Fort in Ch2, helps get Lugh in Chapter 3. Better than Wendy or Barth by that merit.

New quoting stuff annoys me. Anywho.

First point in your post is a nitpick: in what universe are you actually hitting a boss on a throne with bolting? There are more realistic targets to try using this on.

About Astor: Well yeah, but I don't think I would purposefully use him outside of the chapters where I require a thief. Like, that's why talking about thieves is weird, imo at least. He's that high because he does his job while not dying to purge in 16. If we argue about gold and items, he might as well be in top. Also, I wouldn't value his combat too highly. He's not exactly outfighting Fir, for example. 

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Echidna's Luck: Rutger is a weird case where he's essential to the point where we just kinda have to deal with it. It is a problem he has, but unlike Echidna, Rutger has the luxury of having an important job that very few can fulfill (and those that do don't do the job as well until Percival. It also has nothing to do between Echidna and Bartre. Point is simple. Echidna has to deal with it, Bartre doesn't.

Weapons: Armors are not so common and unanswerable that I require an Armorslayer on every sword user. Also, you do not have a lot available. You have the starting one (which may be broken or close to it anyways), and Oujay's. You can't buy new ones till chapter 21, which is a pointless gesture because past Murdock there are two generals left in the game. Wrymslayer is an even worse case in that you only have one until Sacae/Ilia, and Echidna's not that durable. She's not exactly going to storm a wyvern pack by herself, and in that case it's less desirable than Bartre shooting a wyvern with a bow. 

Light Brand is probably the most limited commodity of those weapons. 20 uses and it's gone. Bartre can do roughly the same damage in one shot with a more common and less desired weapon that Echidna would require 2 uses of said weapon. This is ignoring that we could have been using it between the chapter we get it and her recruitment. I also don't see the situation occuring commonly where she would use it for anything more than you would a bow anyways. It's not like you would use it in melee on purpose. 

Killer Swords are the same vein as Killer Axes, except even worse. Paying more money to use a weaker weapon that will face disadvantage more often. Also, Echidna has to fight Rutger to get a hold of any. 

Performance: Accuracy issues I have no choice but to concede. Echidna has like 15 hit over him. The avoid and durability, however, I can argue. First off, Echidna's avoid advantage is not significant. 42 vs 34. 8 is getting there, but not too significant. However, this implies she isn't being weighed down, of which she will constantly if she wants to do any real damage. Iron reduces it to 6, Killer reduces it to 4, Hand Axes and Silver to 2. Anything heavier and not only does she have less avoid, she can easily lose her primary advantage wielding something heavier than killer. I also would not depend on Hand Axes to accomplish much of anything. That weapon is dependable in the hands of precisely no one. Even then, she's packing 19 mt with it at base. I would honestly prefer Bartre with a gun.

Speaking of bows, you mention Sacae nad Bartre having difficulty hitting stuff. First: even with her 15 hit lead, Bartre is still more accurate with a bow than Echidna is with a hand axe. Secondly, Echidna isn't doubling a damn thing in Sacae (in fact, using a hand axe puts her in danger of being doubled herself). Even if hit rate wasn't a thing, Echidna's damage output is atrocious here. It's also where her luck takes the harshest turn, as many enemies here use short bows and have high skill. The short bow alone has 4 displayed crit on her. 60s displayed hit with an iron bow in a world where that's actual enemy phase with better defense, luck and HP to survive through it all while doing considerable damage? That's about as acceptable as you can get in Sacae. To be better, you need to actually be Miledy or Rutger (or Shin I guess).

Ilia is also hardly a problem for Bartre. While sure, Echidna around now could probably use iron to do what Bartre needs silver to do (a weapon literally only they can use anyways. Also, she won't be ORKOing riders with a hand axe before we even go there), Falcoknights are another beast. First, Bartre may not even be doubled by them. Secondly, Echidna can't ORKO them without a killer crit (she can't double with silver axe's weight). Bartre with a steel bow can, however. I would also still argue Bartre is better at fighting mercs and heroes with a bow, as Echidna's speed advantage doesn't cut it against them (also, luck issues in melee)..  

The number of enemies that actually double Bartre are not so common as to deter his vastly superior durability advantage. The times he does are times that are just as bad, if not worse for Echidna. Echidna's speed doesn't auto win combat due to her meh strength, and her requiring the use of heavy weapons. Swords as a side arm are questionable at best in her hands as they don't do a lot of damage, and come with crit risks. Accuracy is a thing she has, but Bartre has durability which in itself is a dependable trait, especially since he has an existing luck stat.

Still don't see how she is outperforming Bartre by a tier. Sure, Echidna's routes can be a touch shorter, we get more reliability through Bartre route's extra stat boosters that effect the rest of the game. I would not ignore that.

As for the buyable killer axes in Echidna's route, I just remember that being something that was in Echidna's favor way back when so I thought I would mention it. As for Barrier, I'm pretty certain that matters for exactly 16x. Even with Barrier, she would still face roughly 80s from staffs. Cute, but I wouldn't say it's going to matter often. Past that, enemies will have too much magic and they'll both be SOL.

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About Ballista: The ballista will fire at your guys first, and since you are going to be sending people to clear the way for them, that will happen. The refugees are actually under no danger at all. Not even remotely difficult. 

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About Fae: Honestly haven't used her much, but do they really target her like automatically due to her low HP or something? i'm not certain if she makes the enemy AI dumb like that, so I could do with an enlightenment in that regard. If that's not the case, then so what? They just target someone else, and Fae hasn't actually helped us. But, as I said, I am ignorant in the Fae ways.

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Lo and Lught: Lugh's "contributions" early on include maybe hitting a cavalier for 7 damage of his 35 HP, while this ignores things like how nomads early ORKO him, or that fighters in 5 OHKO him with hand axes. Lugh is ok in 7 in unique ways like accurately hitting a tough wyvern knight or melting down knights quicker, sure. Lot has been an actually usable and contributing unit during this time (you are probably bringing Lot to chapter 7 too for example). In fact, he is notable in 4 where a Poleaxe is most usable in his hands (Marcus probably doesn't have the rank. Marcus also has a silver lance, so he's not complaining). Accuracy sucks, but for how bad you need to kill every enemy as you see them in 4, the fact he OHKOs certain cavaliers is something only he and Ward can do (and Ward is considerably worse with it). Lot isn't just ok in earlygame, he's legitimately pretty good. 

Past that, sure, he's eternally ok status. I would take ok over Lugh sucking for a majority of the game. Consider that on promotion, Lugh has 15 mag and 16 speed. With basic fire, he has 20 mt. Enemies by then will have more than 40 health, so he is still failing to do the thing you say he does. 16 speed doesn't even double a number of enemies. It's basically just enemies wielding steel axes/lances, which by then isn't a feat worth bragging about. His ass is still very kickable. Lugh probably starts being good roughly around chapter 21 where he can aircalibur down even wyvern lords, but that is way too much time and effort for my tastes for a narrow (if good) use. 

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Gonzales: Yeah, I don't really have a compelling argument. It's just...Come on, man. Dude used to be high tier. I haven't seen a character drop that hard ever. It's reasonable too, just...Argh.

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Geese: I find it weird that he can assert that credit of contribution when every axe user aside from Ward and Gonzales can claim the same. Just the fact that he exists with the weapon rank for that one tiny thing is just so flimsy, and yet it works. I'm upset.

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Bors: Past a certain point, Wolf stops being necessary and can get to the village in time. As for the Armorslayer, Thany can just fly up the mountain, trade from Merlinus, then pass it over for the boss. I know he's forced in these early chapters, but his contributions are "has a pulse, most likely to visit a village". It's so tiny that I'm unwilling to accept it on comedic grounds.

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1 hour ago, grandjackal said:

First point in your post is a nitpick: in what universe are you actually hitting a boss on a throne with bolting? There are more realistic targets to try using this on.

Well in the context of super rigged PTs it actually saves turns to have Lilina bosskill/help bosskill with Bolting. In the context of regular playthroughs, I gave some examples earlier on where a Bolting Sage helps to augment bosskill reliability (there's a recording in fact). It's not accurate but the fact it's 10 range and part of an overall strategy towards a bosskill itself means it's not insignificant either.

1 hour ago, grandjackal said:

About Astor: Well yeah, but I don't think I would purposefully use him outside of the chapters where I require a thief. Like, that's why talking about thieves is weird, imo at least. He's that high because he does his job while not dying to purge in 16. If we argue about gold and items, he might as well be in top. Also, I wouldn't value his combat too highly. He's not exactly outfighting Fir, for example. 

Astor is pretty good to deploy in every map from his recruitment till like Chapter 16 (well, probably not 15 or 14x but who cares), and then after the routesplit there are a bunch of enemies carrying Elixirs that he can steal continously. He has enough unique utility and enough maps that it's worth deploying him that he's easily high tier material.

And uh, he actually does outfight Fir until you train her, but the point is Astor doesn't have to be trained. He can use a lot of good shit at base, doubles everything for a while, and isn't very frail either, and he has 6 mov. Like, Fir has D Swords and 5 con dude, she's basically glued to the Wo Dao until she promotes.

1 hour ago, grandjackal said:

Echidna's Luck: Rutger is a weird case where he's essential to the point where we just kinda have to deal with it. It is a problem he has, but unlike Echidna, Rutger has the luxury of having an important job that very few can fulfill (and those that do don't do the job as well until Percival. It also has nothing to do between Echidna and Bartre. Point is simple. Echidna has to deal with it, Bartre doesn't.

Echidna only has to deal with it for like a handful of enemies. Basically no unpromoted enemies without critboost weapons besides Mercs and Myrms pull crit on her till like Chapter 21, and even then it's usually like, 1 or 2 at worst.

1 hour ago, grandjackal said:

Weapons: Armors are not so common and unanswerable that I require an Armorslayer on every sword user. Also, you do not have a lot available. You have the starting one (which may be broken or close to it anyways), and Oujay's. You can't buy new ones till chapter 21, which is a pointless gesture because past Murdock there are two generals left in the game. Wrymslayer is an even worse case in that you only have one until Sacae/Ilia, and Echidna's not that durable. She's not exactly going to storm a wyvern pack by herself, and in that case it's less desirable than Bartre shooting a wyvern with a bow. 

Waiving extra flexability beause you don't choose to do it is not really an argument. Being able to do these things is a point in her favor regardless. The fact is these options exist, and you are overstating the limiting factors. You may have not that many Armorslayers but you dont fight that many Knights, but in the cases you do it's nice to be able to use one instead of the shitty Hammer. You may only have 1 Wyrmslayer but that's still a 2RKO on Wyvern Lords or Manaketes, both of which Echidna can take hits from at base and survive. Very few units in this game are diving into a pack of Wyverns solo and coming out strong, and in the situations where you would want Echidna to do this she can still just use an Axe and distract, do more damage on EP than Bartre did then finish off with a Wyrmslayer or something.

1 hour ago, grandjackal said:

Light Brand is probably the most limited commodity of those weapons. 20 uses and it's gone. Bartre can do roughly the same damage in one shot with a more common and less desired weapon that Echidna would require 2 uses of said weapon. This is ignoring that we could have been using it between the chapter we get it and her recruitment. I also don't see the situation occuring commonly where she would use it for anything more than you would a bow anyways. It's not like you would use it in melee on purpose. 

There are not so many place where a Light Brand is being used that it's likely to break. Seriously have you ever broken the damn thing? I haven't, and I try to use it as much as I can. Being able to wield the Light Brand is useful for manipulating AI behaviour, or for providing reasonably reliable chip damage on obnoxious enemies like bosses, as it's 10 fixed damage in this game, and Echidna easily doubles. Rutger is probably actually mauling the boss itself and hoping he can finish it off, but there's nothing stopping us from trying to combo up and help. Echidna has good skill so she's better than the Cavs or Paladins at helping in situations like this too. Wielding it in melee can let you manipulate enemy magic users into attacking you at 1 range if you plan stuff correctly too.

1 hour ago, grandjackal said:

Killer Swords are the same vein as Killer Axes, except even worse. Paying more money to use a weaker weapon that will face disadvantage more often. Also, Echidna has to fight Rutger to get a hold of any. 

Paying more money as in what? I don't even break the damn things in casual PTs anymore because Rutger doesn't need one for regular enemies most of the time, and between the two you get plus the Wo Dao you have enough for bosses. Yeah you don't get to sell them for a bit of extra money at the end of the game but it's hardly the end of the world that you don't get to sell the extra 2 uses for 100 gold everytime she doubles with one. This is not a reasonable argument, you have good weapons, she can use them, there are situations where it is useful to use them, ergo that is a plus.

1 hour ago, grandjackal said:

Performance: Accuracy issues I have no choice but to concede. Echidna has like 15 hit over him. The avoid and durability, however, I can argue. First off, Echidna's avoid advantage is not significant. 42 vs 34. 8 is getting there, but not too significant. However, this implies she isn't being weighed down, of which she will constantly if she wants to do any real damage. Iron reduces it to 6, Killer reduces it to 4, Hand Axes and Silver to 2. Anything heavier and not only does she have less avoid, she can easily lose her primary advantage wielding something heavier than killer. I also would not depend on Hand Axes to accomplish much of anything. That weapon is dependable in the hands of precisely no one. Even then, she's packing 19 mt with it at base. I would honestly prefer Bartre with a gun.

Echidna basically never uses Hand Axes and no unit should ever be using a Silver Axe like ever so those are kinda irrelevant. True hit also makes each point of avoid matter more against enemies since the difference between 50 and 40 hit fro an enemy is in reality nearly 20 hit, not 10.

1 hour ago, grandjackal said:

Speaking of bows, you mention Sacae nad Bartre having difficulty hitting stuff. First: even with her 15 hit lead, Bartre is still more accurate with a bow than Echidna is with a hand axe. Secondly, Echidna isn't doubling a damn thing in Sacae (in fact, using a hand axe puts her in danger of being doubled herself). Even if hit rate wasn't a thing, Echidna's damage output is atrocious here. It's also where her luck takes the harshest turn, as many enemies here use short bows and have high skill. The short bow alone has 4 displayed crit on her. 60s displayed hit with an iron bow in a world where that's actual enemy phase with better defense, luck and HP to survive through it all while doing considerable damage? That's about as acceptable as you can get in Sacae. To be better, you need to actually be Miledy or Rutger (or Shin I guess).

Using Hand Axe Echidna in Sacae is a stupid idea. You give her the Light Brand there if she's doing any EP against nomads at all. Nomads do have actually significant crit on her, but they're weak enough that she isn't OHKO'd so it's not like she could never ever be exposed on EP. Bartre faces critrates from Nomads too though, and he's getting doubled by like every enemy at this point, so he hardly fairs any better. Echidna's Light Brand EP is definitely equal at absoloute worst to Bartre's Iron Bow EP in Sacae since both have to be handled with relative caution. And when it comes to PP, Echidna clearly has the better time since she can go for acceptably accurate 1 range options wheras Bartre has to make his accuracy even worse to not get doubled facing critrate again.

As an aside, Klein, Igrene and Sue all have pretty decent EP in Sacae if trained.

1 hour ago, grandjackal said:

Ilia is also hardly a problem for Bartre. While sure, Echidna around now could probably use iron to do what Bartre needs silver to do (a weapon literally only they can use anyways. Also, she won't be ORKOing riders with a hand axe before we even go there), Falcoknights are another beast. First, Bartre may not even be doubled by them. Secondly, Echidna can't ORKO them without a killer crit (she can't double with silver axe's weight). Bartre with a steel bow can, however. I would also still argue Bartre is better at fighting mercs and heroes with a bow, as Echidna's speed advantage doesn't cut it against them (also, luck issues in melee)..  

Again, nobody actually ever uses the Silver Axe so don't even bring it up. Bartre may not be doubled by Falcos and Paladins all the time but he is pretty likely to get doubled unless you sunk a large amount of EXP into him. His HP is big but 10 defence isn't anything to write home about when you eat 2 silver lances to the face twice. Like, I get where you're coming from here and I don't think Bartre is trash (I've even said I think he can broadly replicate most things Echidna is doing in an efficient PT), but it's kinda ludicrous to try to act like the fact Echidna is capable of having solid EP against enemies, along with denting them reliably and having a decent chance to kill them is an insignificant advantage over Bartre. I'd concede Bartre is probably better than Echidna at fighting Mercs but Bartre is far from GOOD at fighting Mercs. That's like, Shanna, Miledy, Percival, etc territory. At best it's one of his small advantages and doesn't really offset the disadvantages.

1 hour ago, grandjackal said:

The number of enemies that actually double Bartre are not so common as to deter his vastly superior durability advantage. The times he does are times that are just as bad, if not worse for Echidna. Echidna's speed doesn't auto win combat due to her meh strength, and her requiring the use of heavy weapons. Swords as a side arm are questionable at best in her hands as they don't do a lot of damage, and come with crit risks. Accuracy is a thing she has, but Bartre has durability which in itself is a dependable trait, especially since he has an existing luck stat.

The first sentence is true, but the amount of enemies that have actual crit on Echidna and 2HKO are not so common as to mean she's really frail or anything. Her Str isn't really meh at all, it's 13. Swords are like by far the best weapon to have a C in because they give you access to a lot of unique and useful weaponry as I outlined beforehand.

1 hour ago, grandjackal said:

As for the buyable killer axes in Echidna's route, I just remember that being something that was in Echidna's favor way back when so I thought I would mention it. As for Barrier, I'm pretty certain that matters for exactly 16x. Even with Barrier, she would still face roughly 80s from staffs. Cute, but I wouldn't say it's going to matter often. Past that, enemies will have too much magic and they'll both be SOL.

It matters in 12 because the Priests have Sleep.

1 hour ago, grandjackal said:

About Ballista: The ballista will fire at your guys first, and since you are going to be sending people to clear the way for them, that will happen. The refugees are actually under no danger at all. Not even remotely difficult. 

Fair enough. I've played the map before but assumed the Ballista would fire on the Civilians so I rushed Shanna to kill the Long Ballista ASAP. The map still takes much longer than counterparts and is considerably more difficult due to all the chokepoints and more difficult enemy types (read, Nosferatu Druid).

1 hour ago, grandjackal said:

About Fae: Honestly haven't used her much, but do they really target her like automatically due to her low HP or something? i'm not certain if she makes the enemy AI dumb like that, so I could do with an enlightenment in that regard. If that's not the case, then so what? They just target someone else, and Fae hasn't actually helped us. But, as I said, I am ignorant in the Fae ways.

It depends on your deployment order. The units at the bottom of the list get prioritised. You can basically guarantee that enemy Status Stave users will try to status her over other targets, and she has so much Res that they pull very low hitrates. Targeting Priority for Siege Tomes is closer to what you thought, her low HP and the fact she gets doubled increases her targeting priority over other units, even if the LRT does 0 damage to her. Getting doubled is really good in this case since it burns up the Siege Tome faster too.

1 hour ago, grandjackal said:

Lo and Lught: Lugh's "contributions" early on include maybe hitting a cavalier for 7 damage of his 35 HP, while this ignores things like how nomads early ORKO him, or that fighters in 5 OHKO him with hand axes. Lugh is ok in 7 in unique ways like accurately hitting a tough wyvern knight or melting down knights quicker, sure. Lot has been an actually usable and contributing unit during this time (you are probably bringing Lot to chapter 7 too for example). In fact, he is notable in 4 where a Poleaxe is most usable in his hands (Marcus probably doesn't have the rank. Marcus also has a silver lance, so he's not complaining). Accuracy sucks, but for how bad you need to kill every enemy as you see them in 4, the fact he OHKOs certain cavaliers is something only he and Ward can do (and Ward is considerably worse with it). Lot isn't just ok in earlygame, he's legitimately pretty good. 

Past that, sure, he's eternally ok status. I would take ok over Lugh sucking for a majority of the game. Consider that on promotion, Lugh has 15 mag and 16 speed. With basic fire, he has 20 mt. Enemies by then will have more than 40 health, so he is still failing to do the thing you say he does. 16 speed doesn't even double a number of enemies. It's basically just enemies wielding steel axes/lances, which by then isn't a feat worth bragging about. His ass is still very kickable. Lugh probably starts being good roughly around chapter 21 where he can aircalibur down even wyvern lords, but that is way too much time and effort for my tastes for a narrow (if good) use. 

There are like 2 nomads in chapter 4. This is not a big deal. Hitting Cavs for like 9 to 7 damage at like 90 hit is actually amazing compared to what most of our units in that map do. That is actually nearly Marcus tier, units like Alance are lucky to be dealing 6 damage at 70 hit, and even Dieck is hardly much better. These cavs require so many hits to go your way to deal with that Lugh's safe and reliable chip that doesn't clog up the area (because it turns into a clusterfuck when like 4 units have to surround a Cav to have a go at him) is a really big deal. Chapter 5 Hand Axe dudes do OHKO him, that's true, and he's not that great in Chapter 5 in general, but that doesn't really diminish the point elsewhere.

Chapter 4 is not the place the Poleaxe is most usable, that's actually Chapter 7 and possibly a bit beyond depending on how long you keep deploying Marcus. In Chapter 4 it's frankly bad beacuse of how unreliable and prone it is to getting you set up into KO range or just outright resulting in your death unless you're at full HP. Comparably, by Chapter 7 Marcus can easily have D Axes, and his great skill and solid speed make him pretty good at using it vs the weighted down Javelin Cavaliers. He can actually pull nearly 75~ disp hit on Cavs in that map, oneshotting basically all of them. Beyond that it is more like a worse Horsekiller but kinda nice to have as an option here and there.

I would not say Lot is "pretty good" in earlygame, merely he's a smidgen above average. He isn't really good at anything but he isn't bad at anything. This starts to change from being above average to just being plain average as the game goes on. Like, he might get deployed in Chapter 7 but it's not like he does great there or anything, and tbh the most efficient team comp (Marcus, Alan, Lance, Shanna, Sue, Clarine, Rutger, Dieck, Saul, Lugh, Chad, Dorothy) does not include him, and Merlinus is arguably better to deploy than any of the other cuttable units over Lot since he lets you Convoy Warp the Hero Crest to Rutger or act as a suicide lure on some of the more precarious EPs against enemy Cavaliers or Wyverns, which is really useful.

I don't think Lugh "sucks" for the majority of the game considering he has reach and accuracy that Lot simply doesn't. When Lugh promotes he should be using Elfire to ORKO enemies, and Aircalibur is relevant vs Wyverns starting from Chapter 13 and then like the rest of the game dude, not just Chapter 21.

1 hour ago, grandjackal said:

Bors: Past a certain point, Wolf stops being necessary and can get to the village in time. As for the Armorslayer, Thany can just fly up the mountain, trade from Merlinus, then pass it over for the boss. I know he's forced in these early chapters, but his contributions are "has a pulse, most likely to visit a village". It's so tiny that I'm unwilling to accept it on comedic grounds.

The most efficienct clears of the C1 don't let Wolt get the village. In C2 Shanna should be getting EXP on the right or helping get Roy to the throne, so Bors is indirectly helping in letting her do her job better instead of having to force Shanna to do something she doesn't have to. He is actually fine at helping to get Lugh since Soldiers are shitty enemies and Wade and Lot don't ORKO them in C3 anymore (Wade doesn't even double a lot of them, pretty sad).

Edited by Irysa

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16 hours ago, Irysa said:

Yeah I understand. It mostly comes down to whether oneshotting one or two Wyverns, denting a few Paladins and Heroes, and Bolting chipping a boss or occaisonal enemies someone might miss or w/e adds a notable amount of reliability. I feel like it's a better payoff than most others in the lower tiers are doing for you though, easily.

It's the stats required to have a chance of getting him down in a single round of combat. Remember that by Miledy can be safely engaging Randy repeatedly on PP and EP and gets him down in 1 hit and 1 crit at base (or just like 4 or 5 hits depending on throne healing). You can use the Killing Edge to doublecrit him too, but the Str requirement doesn't change (I think I was getting mixed up with other bosses getting Physic'd or something) but its important to keep in mind that Rutger faces a bit of displayed crit (even on average, Goddess Icon to Rutger hype?), and is 3HKO'd, and if you do try to get him up there you're having to either have Miledy fly back to grab him (wastes time compared to having her fight Randy) or sending another flier to carry (Miledy probably had to clear the way, means you can't use that flier for grabbing items or carrying someone else like Roy) which means that I'm pretty sure the SM has to prospectively be able to make up for this efficiency drop by being considerably better at beating the boss than Miledy is.

Just above Lilina are characters like Chad, Fae, Treck who require no investment for minor contributions, some of which can even occur in more optimal contexts. Vs. the axe people is whatever; I actually try to be charitable towards them due to how they’ve been traditionally ranked, but tbh I find them terrible for efficient play because of accuracy and such. What kind of (in)efficient clears are we doing if it relies on smashing Lances with 6 move units to clear space, then relying on someone else for the bosskill anyways? >_> 

Anyways, with stats in the format of:
hp, str/mag, skl, as, luck, def, “weapon” hit, “weapon” crit, “weapon” mt, weapon strikes, “terrain” def/res, “terrain” avoid

-    It’s actually trivial to get the battle forecast and estimate probabilities and mean rounds. Takes a few seconds to run and copypaste. 
-    Stuff like weapon triangle, supports and class crit should be added into the “weapon” and “terrain” variable where appropriate. Just some simple math to reduce the number of inputs. Could easily separate but imo this way is simple and clean (note inputs like 30+30+10 work so technically don’t even need to calc anything).
-    Weapon strikes is 2 for braves, 1 for normal weapons. Any number of more consecutive strikes would also work, though no FE weapons have that property(?)
-    Specific strats (like vulnerary healing below a certain hp threshold) are handled case-by-case. I already messed this up before for cases where the boss initiates on ep but I think it’s solved now.
-    Also I lied earlier, it’s really simple to count rounds in wins/losses respectively. I don’t know why I overcomplicated it. Now, tracking wins/losses above or below a certain number of rounds, or the distribution of rounds, does need that stuff afaik, but that’s for another day.


Some C14 examples. A few sample inputs, the rest is results. 10% gate healing is always in effect. 

l1109rutgerKE = [42, 15, 23, 22, 8, 12, 80, 30+30, 9, 1, 0, 0];
hmrandy = [49, 18, 23, 18, 11, 13, 70, 0, 9, 1, 3, 20];

11/9 ish Rutger, with 42 hp, 15 str/mag, 23 skl, 22 AS, 8 luck, 12 def/res,
a 80 hit, 60 crit, 9 mt, 1 strike "weapon",
on "terrain" with 0 def/res, 0 avo
vs
Randy with 49 hp, 18 str/mag, 23 skl, 18 AS, 11 luck, 13 def/res,
a 70 hit, 0 crit, 9 mt, 1 strike "weapon",
on "terrain" with 3 def/res, 20 avo

Rutger has 67 hit, 8 damage, 60 crit, 2 attack(s) per round
Randy has 75 hit, 15 damage, 3 crit, 1 attack(s) per round

If using vulnerary in 2hko range, Rutger is estimated to:
win ~91.9% of the time in ~3.1 rounds on average.
lose ~8.1% of the time in ~3.4 rounds on average.
Overall, the mean battle lasts ~3.1 rounds.

Killing Edge, 15 str, no vuln is:
42hp, 67 hit, 8 damage, 60 crit, 2 attack(s) per round vs. 49 hp, 75 hit, 15 damage, 3 crit, 1 attack(s) per round
 Win ~77.9% in ~2.3 rounds. Lose ~22.1% in ~2.8 rounds. Mean ~2.4 rounds

Which may give a chance of a turnshave if initiating on player phase (drop Rutger further away, so Miledy can go back to grab Roy)

Killing Edge, 16 str, yes vuln:
42 hp, 67 hit, 9 damage, 60 crit, 2 attack(s) per round vs. 49 hp, 75 hit, 15 damage, 3 crit, 1 attack(s) per round
Win ~93.7% in ~2.5 rounds. Lose ~6.3% in ~2.9 rounds. Mean ~2.5 rounds.

Killing Edge, 16 str, no vuln:
42 hp, 67 hit, 9 damage, 60 crit, 2 attack(s) per round vs. 49 hp, 75 hit, 15 damage, 3 crit, 1 attack(s) per round
Win ~85.0% in ~2.0 rounds. Lose ~15.0% in ~2.6 rounds. Mean ~2.1 rounds.

Better chances, lower rounds. 

Silver Sword, 15 str, yes vuln:
42 hp, 62 hit, 12 damage, 30 crit, 2 attack(s) per round vs. 49 hp, 75 hit, 15 damage, 3 crit, 1 attack(s) per round
Win ~88.4% in ~3.2 rounds. Lose ~11.6% in ~4.6 rounds. Mean ~3.4 rounds.

Silver Sword, 15 str, no vuln:
42 hp, 62 hit, 12 damage, 30 crit, 2 attack(s) per round vs. 49 hp, 75 hit, 15 damage, 3 crit, 1 attack(s) per round
Win ~69.1% in ~2.3 rounds. Lose ~30.9% in ~2.9 rounds. Mean ~2.5 rounds.

Silver Sword, 16 str, yes vuln:
42 hp, 62 hit, 13 damage, 30 crit, 2 attack(s) per round vs. 49 hp, 75 hit, 15 damage, 3 crit, 1 attack(s) per round
Win ~91.5% in ~3.0 rounds. Lose ~8.5% in ~3.9 rounds. Mean ~3.0 rounds.

Silver Sword, 16 str, no vuln:
42 hp, 62 hit, 13 damage, 30 crit, 2 attack(s) per round vs. 49 hp, 75 hit, 15 damage, 3 crit, 1 attack(s) per round
Win ~71.2% in ~2.0 rounds. Lose ~28.8% in ~2.9 rounds. Mean ~2.2 rounds.

Silver Sword is pretty comparable, though seems to be worse on average. It’s true 16 Str and 13 damage allows crit+hit to deal 52 hp to oneround but that case is just 0.7150^2*(1-0.7^2) = 26.1% likely.

Something interesting/relevant might be for Randy attacking first vs. Killing Edge, 15 str, no vuln, to try to get that clean ep+pp ko (<2 rounds). Didn’t calc vuln cases because those take longer anyways so they’re pretty similar to Rutger initiations.
49 hp, 75 hit, 15 damage, 3 crit, 1 attack(s) per round vs. 42 hp, 67 hit, 8 damage, 60 crit, 2 attack(s) per round
Win ~32.1% in ~2.8 rounds. Lose ~67.9% in ~2.2 rounds. Mean ~2.4 rounds.

Randy initiates vs. Killing Edge, 16 str, no vuln: 
49 hp, 75 hit, 15 damage, 3 crit, 1 attack(s) per round vs. 42 hp, 67 hit, 9 damage, 60 crit, 2 attack(s) per round
Win ~23.6% in ~2.8 rounds. Lose ~76.4% in ~1.8 rounds. Mean ~2.1 rounds.

Randy initiates vs. Killing Edge, 17 str (probably Energy Ring), no vuln: 
49 hp, 75 hit, 15 damage, 3 crit, 1 attack(s) per round vs. 42 hp, 67 hit, 10 damage, 60 crit, 2 attack(s) per round
Win ~15.6% in ~2.7 rounds. Lose ~84.4% in ~1.8 rounds. Mean ~1.9 rounds.

Borderline tho it can work. 

I think Miledy’s base stats had to be manipulated but regardless I just lazily used the ones in the movie (w/ Speedwing). 

Randy (wtd) with 49 hp, 18 str/mag, 23 skl, 18 AS, 11 luck, 13 def/res, a 60 hit, 0 crit, 8 mt, 1 strike "weapon", on "terrain" with 3 def/res, 20 avo
vs
10/1 Speedwings Miledy (wta) with 43 hp, 19 str/mag, 17 skl, 18 AS, 8 luck, 17 def/res, a 85 hit, 30 crit, 11 mt, 1 strike "weapon", on "terrain" with 0 def/res, 0 avo
Randy has 73 hit, 9 damage, 3 crit, 1 attack(s) per round
Miledy has 60 hit, 14 damage, 27 crit, 1 attack(s) per round

Randy is estimated to:
win ~32.8% of the time in ~5.1 rounds on average.
lose ~67.2% of the time in ~3.4 rounds on average.
Overall, the mean battle lasts ~3.9 rounds.

Randy initiates vs. 10/1 Speedwings Miledy, yes vuln: 
49 hp, 73 hit, 9 damage, 3 crit, 1 attack(s) per round vs. 43 hp, 60 hit, 14 damage, 27 crit, 1 attack(s) per round
Win ~6.6% in ~5.5 rounds. Lose ~93.4% in ~6.0 rounds. Mean ~5.9 rounds.

Randy initiates vs. 12/1 or so, with +2 hp, +1 Str/Skl/Spd, no vuln:
49 hp, 71 hit, 9 damage, 3 crit, 1 attack(s) per round vs. 43 hp, 62 hit, 15 damage, 28 crit, 1 attack(s) per round
Win ~23.4% in ~4.9 rounds. Lose ~76.6% in ~3.4 rounds. Mean ~3.8 rounds.

Randy initiates vs. 12/1ish Speedwings Miledy, yes vuln:
49 hp, 71 hit, 9 damage, 3 crit, 1 attack(s) per round vs. 43 hp, 62 hit, 15 damage, 28 crit, 1 attack(s) per round
Win ~4.7% in ~4.9 rounds. Lose ~95.3% in ~4.8 rounds. Mean ~4.8 rounds.

Randy initiates vs. above 12/1ish case also with Energy Ring, 22 Str, no vuln:
49 hp, 71 hit, 9 damage, 3 crit, 1 attack(s) per round vs. 43 hp, 62 hit, 17 damage, 28 crit, 1 attack(s) per round
Win ~21.5% in ~4.9 rounds. Lose ~78.5% in ~2.9 rounds. Mean ~3.3 rounds.

Randy initiates vs. 12/1ish Speedwings Energy Ring Miledy, yes vuln. 
49 hp, 71 hit, 9 damage, 3 crit, 1 attack(s) per round vs. 43 hp, 62 hit, 17 damage, 28 crit, 1 attack(s) per round
Win ~3.9% in ~4.9 rounds. Lose ~96.1% in ~4.1 rounds. Mean ~4.2 rounds.

Remember Miledy is on the defender/”loss” side here, so her chances can get pretty good, it just takes a few rounds. We also should keep in mind Roy + thieves/mages need to survive also…

tl;dr Miledy strats are probably better since she’s probably the main ferry for the SM/Roy since others are so frail, so she’s over there anyway. There are also other enemies and prior damage, plus the chances to actually reach stat benchmarks (if 11/9 is even reasonable), that may complicate things. Still, that 60 hit, combined with not doubling, does tend to extend Miledy’s bossfights. I also imagine SM+Miledy+delayed Roy is probably safer overall, especially for Roy. And if Miledy flies over there to fight safely without Roy, might as well bring the SM. It might depend on other factors in the strat, like if we have to use thieves or not (and units like Miledy to protect them? Or Rutger to fight generic Wyverns/Heroes/Manaketes?)

@grandjackal

I think the reason the warpers generally don’t top the list is that their contributions are shared, much like dancers/ferrybots. Generally, the convention is to have the optimal combat units above them, though if you want to try and upend the thinking on this, feel free. Their high contribution in a given chapter is also combined with low availability for some cases, like Niime. Additionally, very fast warp strats generally have don’t have great success rates, so the improvement in turncount on average isn’t actually as massive as what one might immediately think. Though it is still very significant, as evidenced by Saul/Niime’s position. Ellen requires significantly more time to reach the appropriate staff rank, so her warping cases are given less weight.

Astor: perhaps should only be this high if he gets credit for desert items (no rng trick). It would be useful if we had some clarification by @Colonel M for the judgement on this.

Rutger’s luck: It’s not worth Goddess Icons unless you really care about minimal reset rates. Usually just have to deal with it. Regardless, the sims take all that into account, and even with the existent (if minor) chance to get crit and low-ish Def, Rutger is still easily one of the best units because of how his hit+crit+AS can facilitate speedy bosskills (which is often a limiting factor to efficient clears).

Gonzo: Secret Books increase hit rates by a small amount and any reliability gained is probably offset by the partial Boots lost. Still, Gonzales is lowly ranked primarily because he has some of the worst mobility in the game, given his Con.

Sophia: Uniquely can get us a Guiding Ring (and potentially assists w/ other Desert items if the trick is allowed). There are logistics involved in obtaining it efficiently, which makes it more akin to thief utility, rather than say items in starting inventories (recruitment stuff is generally waived). But these are always silly/tricky topics.

Edited by XeKr

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55 minutes ago, Irysa said:

Well in the context of super rigged PTs it actually saves turns to have Lilina bosskill/help bosskill with Bolting. In the context of regular playthroughs, I gave some examples earlier on where a Bolting Sage helps to augment bosskill reliability (there's a recording in fact). It's not accurate but the fact it's 10 range and part of an overall strategy towards a bosskill itself means it's not insignificant either.

Astor is pretty good to deploy in every map from his recruitment till like Chapter 16 (well, probably not 15 or 14x but who cares), and then after the routesplit there are a bunch of enemies carrying Elixirs that he can steal continously. He has enough unique utility and enough maps that it's worth deploying him that he's easily high tier material.

And uh, he actually does outfight Fir until you train her, but the point is Astor doesn't have to be trained. He can use a lot of good shit at base, doubles everything for a while, and isn't very frail either, and he has 6 mov. Like, Fir has D Swords and 5 con dude, she's basically glued to the Wo Dao until she promotes.

Echidna only has to deal with it for like a handful of enemies. Basically no unpromoted enemies without critboost weapons besides Mercs and Myrms pull crit on her till like Chapter 21, and even then it's usually like, 1 or 2 at worst.

Waiving extra flexability beause you don't choose to do it is not really an argument. Being able to do these things is a point in her favor regardless. The fact is these options exist, and you are overstating the limiting factors. You may have not that many Armorslayers but you dont fight that many Knights, but in the cases you do it's nice to be able to use one instead of the shitty Hammer. You may only have 1 Wyrmslayer but that's still a 2RKO on Wyvern Lords or Manaketes, both of which Echidna can take hits from at base and survive. Very few units in this game are diving into a pack of Wyverns solo and coming out strong, and in the situations where you would want Echidna to do this she can still just use an Axe and distract, do more damage on EP than Bartre did then finish off with a Wyrmslayer or something.

There are not so many place where a Light Brand is being used that it's likely to break. Seriously have you ever broken the damn thing? I haven't, and I try to use it as much as I can. Being able to wield the Light Brand is useful for manipulating AI behaviour, or for providing reasonably reliable chip damage on obnoxious enemies like bosses, as it's 10 fixed damage in this game, and Echidna easily doubles. Rutger is probably actually mauling the boss itself and hoping he can finish it off, but there's nothing stopping us from trying to combo up and help. Echidna has good skill so she's better than the Cavs or Paladins at helping in situations like this too. Wielding it in melee can let you manipulate enemy magic users into attacking you at 1 range if you plan stuff correctly too.

Paying more money as in what? I don't even break the damn things in casual PTs anymore because Rutger doesn't need one for regular enemies most of the time, and between the two you get plus the Wo Dao you have enough for bosses. Yeah you don't get to sell them for a bit of extra money at the end of the game but it's hardly the end of the world that you don't get to sell the extra 2 uses for 100 gold everytime she doubles with one. This is not a reasonable argument, you have good weapons, she can use them, there are situations where it is useful to use them, ergo that is a plus.

Echidna basically never uses Hand Axes and no unit should ever be using a Silver Axe like ever so those are kinda irrelevant. True hit also makes each point of avoid matter more against enemies since the difference between 50 and 40 hit fro an enemy is in reality nearly 20 hit, not 10.

Using Hand Axe Echidna in Sacae is a stupid idea. You give her the Light Brand there if she's doing any EP against nomads at all. Nomads do have actually significant crit on her, but they're weak enough that she isn't OHKO'd so it's not like she could never ever be exposed on EP. Bartre faces critrates from Nomads too though, and he's getting doubled by like every enemy at this point, so he hardly fairs any better. Echidna's Light Brand EP is definitely equal at absoloute worst to Bartre's Iron Bow EP in Sacae since both have to be handled with relative caution. And when it comes to PP, Echidna clearly has the better time since she can go for acceptably accurate 1 range options wheras Bartre has to make his accuracy even worse to not get doubled facing critrate again.

As an aside, Klein, Igrene and Sue all have pretty decent EP in Sacae if trained.

Again, nobody actually ever uses the Silver Axe so don't even bring it up. Bartre may not be doubled by Falcos and Paladins all the time but he is pretty likely to get doubled unless you sunk a large amount of EXP into him. His HP is big but 10 defence isn't anything to write home about when you eat 2 silver lances to the face twice. Like, I get where you're coming from here and I don't think Bartre is trash (I've even said I think he can broadly replicate most things Echidna is doing in an efficient PT), but it's kinda ludicrous to try to act like the fact Echidna is capable of having solid EP against enemies, along with denting them reliably and having a decent chance to kill them is an insignificant advantage over Bartre. I'd concede Bartre is probably better than Echidna at fighting Mercs but Bartre is far from GOOD at fighting Mercs. That's like, Shanna, Miledy, Percival, etc territory. At best it's one of his small advantages and doesn't really offset the disadvantages.

The first sentence is true, but the amount of enemies that have actual crit on Echidna and 2HKO are not so common as to mean she's really frail or anything. Her Str isn't really meh at all, it's 13. Swords are like by far the best weapon to have a C in because they give you access to a lot of unique and useful weaponry as I outlined beforehand.

It matters in 12 because the Priests have Sleep.

Fair enough. I've played the map before but assumed the Ballista would fire on the Civilians so I rushed Shanna to kill the Long Ballista ASAP. The map still takes much longer than counterparts and is considerably more difficult due to all the chokepoints and more difficult enemy types (read, Nosferatu Druid).

It depends on your deployment order. The units at the bottom of the list get prioritised. You can basically guarantee that enemy Status Stave users will try to status her over other targets, and she has so much Res that they pull very low hitrates. Targeting Priority for Siege Tomes is closer to what you thought, her low HP and the fact she gets doubled increases her targeting priority over other units, even if the LRT does 0 damage to her. Getting doubled is really good in this case since it burns up the Siege Tome faster too.

There are like 2 nomads in chapter 4. This is not a big deal. Hitting Cavs for like 9 to 7 damage at like 90 hit is actually amazing compared to what most of our units in that map do. That is actually nearly Marcus tier, units like Alance are lucky to be dealing 6 damage at 70 hit, and even Dieck is hardly much better. These cavs require so many hits to go your way to deal with that Lugh's safe and reliable chip that doesn't clog up the area (because it turns into a clusterfuck when like 4 units have to surround a Cav to have a go at him) is a really big deal. Chapter 5 Hand Axe dudes do OHKO him, that's true, and he's not that great in Chapter 5 in general, but that doesn't really diminish the point elsewhere.

Chapter 4 is not the place the Poleaxe is most usable, that's actually Chapter 7 and possibly a bit beyond depending on how long you keep deploying Marcus. In Chapter 4 it's frankly bad beacuse of how unreliable and prone it is to getting you set up into KO range or just outright resulting in your death unless you're at full HP. Comparably, by Chapter 7 Marcus can easily have D Axes, and his great skill and solid speed make him pretty good at using it vs the weighted down Javelin Cavaliers. He can actually pull nearly 75~ disp hit on Cavs in that map, oneshotting basically all of them. Beyond that it is more like a worse Horsekiller but kinda nice to have as an option here and there.

I would not say Lot is "pretty good" in earlygame, merely he's a smidgen above average. He isn't really good at anything but he isn't bad at anything. This starts to change from being above average to just being plain average as the game goes on. Like, he might get deployed in Chapter 7 but it's not like he does great there or anything, and tbh the most efficient team comp (Marcus, Alan, Lance, Shanna, Sue, Clarine, Rutger, Dieck, Saul, Lugh, Chad, Dorothy) does not include him, and Merlinus is arguably better to deploy than any of the other cuttable units over Lot since he lets you Convoy Warp the Hero Crest to Rutger or act as a suicide lure on some of the more precarious EPs against enemy Cavaliers or Wyverns, which is really useful.

I don't think Lugh "sucks" for the majority of the game considering he has reach and accuracy that Lot simply doesn't. When Lugh promotes he should be using Elfire to ORKO enemies, and Aircalibur is relevant vs Wyverns starting from Chapter 13 and then like the rest of the game dude, not just Chapter 21.

The most efficienct clears of the C1 don't let Wolt get the village. In C2 Shanna should be getting EXP on the right or helping get Roy to the throne, so Bors is indirectly helping in letting her do her job better instead of having to force Shanna to do something she doesn't have to. He is actually fine at helping to get Lugh since Soldiers are shitty enemies and Wade and Lot don't ORKO them in C3 anymore (Wade doesn't even double a lot of them, pretty sad).

Bolting: While true that that is a fact, I feel like there has to be a more reliable use for bolting. Killing the 16x bolting sage welcomer asshole comes to mind, or getting some breathing space in chapter 20 Sacae (rudest starting area for a map ever). 

-----------

Astor and Fir: Ok, he's kinda better but he's not exactly blowing her out of the water. 

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Weapons: Hammer is indeed booty sweat, not that Bartre needs it. He can basically do the same job with steel weapons. Also, I forget if weapon disadvantage effects slayer mt. I remember that being a thing in one of the games in the series, but not specifically this one. Regardless, there are still issues I have. Wielding a sword gives these enemies realistic hit rates, and have a habit of doing over half health to her. Bartre can run at these guys and basically not care. I feel there's a difference between being able to use a thing and required to use a thing that is being missed here.

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Light Brand and Sacae: You not finding enough ways to make use of a 20 durability weapon only proves my point in that the weapon is not actually that useful. It basically tells me you couldn't find roughly 10 or so fights in the game to do it. 10 fights is not a lot. Secondly, Bartre would need to be critted 4 times to go down in Sacae or eat 2 before he's in significant danger as opposed to Echidna who eats 1 crit and is in immediate danger. Thirdly, 70 acc on Light Brand vs 80 on iron bow makes the accuracy difference 4. 4 hit, or double digit damage advantage? Bartre can risk considerably more exposure, and accomplish more with said exposure, while I have to basically tuck Echidna away to basically do 10 damage to an enemy. 

This is also ignoring things like the fact other enemies exist here. Like swordmasters in 19. You think Echidna can throw down with a swordmaster? Bartre has a gun. Not perfect, but I'm also not lying to myself in thinking it'd be more helpful.

Proud of Sue, Klein and Igrene. They also have nothing to do with comparing Bartre to Echidna. Also, they're arguably not better than Bartre in this specific spot. Klein has 10 or so more base hit, but significantly less durability while facing the same crit rates. Igrene needs 2 speed in what time she has between join time and Sacae to avoid being doubled, as otherwise it's a worse situation for her (though I was unaware she had 11 base defense. If she can get that 2 speed, she'd actually be pretty good here). Not gonna touch on Sue.

Fair enough on chapter 12 priests. They are annoying enough, and I forgot about them.

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Enemy phase: I'm arguing that Echidna's enemy phase is not actually better. She doubles, and yet Bartre still manages to do roughly the same amount of damage anyways (and is better against higher defense enemies/enemies Echidna can't double). They have roughly the same avoid, except Bartre has 12 more HP and 2 more Def. Despite popular belief, not a lot of enemies actually double Bartre until way later (at which point I could argue Echidna doesn't do enough damage). Even consider getting doubled by a Falco. He would take roughly 38 damage if both hits landed. He could still eat steel from another pegasi and survive, nevermind javelins. Even chapter 21, if it's that bad you can just have him wield Armads. Only time he has ever asked for anything special, and it's probably the best chapter to make use of it. 

Yeah. He doesn't double. Neither do a lot of other people on the roster. Easier problem to work around than deteriorating strength and durability. Again though, ultimately it's a lot closer than I make it out to be, but a lot of the difference between Bartre and Echidna is mostly due to overrating Bartre's speed problem and overrating Echidna's speed advantage, and that it somehow neutralizes the advantages Bartre has. I am merely trying to point out that their performance is not so gap-defining as to justify a tier difference. 

Also, Fir support

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Lugh and Lot: Chapter 4 is a tough deal with it situation. Risking it sucks. Letting a cavalier do what they want is even worse. Being unable to kill the cavalier to let you kill the nomad, even worse. One of these situations would cause us to need to position Lugh away from danger or else he dies. Much as it sucks, the risks need to be taken, and Lot allows you to take those risks. It wouldn't even necessarily end up in a reset, due to lance vs axe acc (hopeful, but in the realm of possibility). In fact, if I don't take those risks, then positioning Lugh safely is even harder. There's 2 nomads, but they're a big enough threat that if not taken care of, backliners could die. That includes Lugh. 

I would even argue it's more notable in 4 than 7. 7's issue is that all the enemies up there have 1-2 ranged weapons. Marcus will dunk a fool or two and then get equip-traded, but honestly you're probably better off just trying to throw things at the myriad of other enemies out there and hold until you're in position to just blast through the line (so realistically, after the two aggro wyverns are dealt with). Nice, but doesn't feel necessary like it does in 4.

Also, why the fuck are you bringing Dorothy? Most of the enemies here wield lances, and between Sue, Lugh chip (he does deserve credit for this) Marcus, Zealot, and Rutger with the killing edge, I feel you are heavily overkilling on answers to wyverns. In the event that something wrong occurs on the several fronts of this chapter, Lot can basically walk anywhere and be virtually safe. He can kill soldiers, block armors, trade off poleaxe to attack cavaliers, attempt a killer axe swing at a wyvern if you're feeling particularly ballsy (and if he has the rank. He might?). Dorothy on the other hand is a literal bag of crap. Like. Wow. Mercenaries literally just kill her, and she is working with a pea shooter. You are inviting all that trouble on yourself because she is your 6th answer to wyverns? 

From that point on yeah, Lot kinda becomes meh and is forever meh. Not trash, but not good (He's Geese with a con stat and, hilariously enough, better growths and promotion bonuses). Lugh on the other hand basically doesn't stop sucking until 16x, at which point he's good player phase and a healer. Nice, but again that's a lot of effort and putting up with his garbage-ness until then. Even as you train him later on before the promotion, enemies are still capable of one shotting him (ballistas in 13 are particularly awful examples). 

Maybe I'm just biased. I find that he requires so much coddling that I feel I might as well just use Lilina. At least she will be leveling faster, dropping nuclear bombs eventually and being a realistic support for at least a few people (though maybe not realistic. Roy is usually in someone's saddlebags, Ashtor's both not a great support for her nor is he long term, and Cecilia's on a horse. 10 to C, but still). 

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I don't really care enough about Bors visiting villages to argue about it really. Sure, thing he can do. 

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On 4/26/2017 at 7:43 AM, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'd say Sophia is superior purely on the grounds that her long-term contribution if trained would be more unique than Wendy's.

Wendy does have semi-unique utility in the triangle attack. Even if it's not relevant in an efficiency context, it's a reason you might want to use Wendy, which is more than you can say for Sophia.

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On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:

Bolting: While true that that is a fact, I feel like there has to be a more reliable use for bolting. Killing the 16x bolting sage welcomer asshole comes to mind, or getting some breathing space in chapter 20 Sacae (rudest starting area for a map ever). 

Chapter 20 Sacae for a reliable clear you either AI manip or Niime should be double Silencing the Sages ASAP, as you don't have enough Bolting charges to deal with them. One of the better uses is actually in helping to clear out Wyverns from the top of the map in Chapter 21. There are not enough places where Bolting is particularly useful that it is a big deal to use it when the 10 range matters.

On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:

Astor and Fir: Ok, he's kinda better but he's not exactly blowing her out of the water. 

Why not? He takes no effort to basically be as good as Dieck with an extra point of mov and unique utility. Until like Chapter 21 Astol is being deployed just about every map for me even on a casual PT, wheras Fir you have to actually bother to train.

On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:

Weapons: Hammer is indeed booty sweat, not that Bartre needs it. He can basically do the same job with steel weapons. Also, I forget if weapon disadvantage effects slayer mt. I remember that being a thing in one of the games in the series, but not specifically this one. Regardless, there are still issues I have. Wielding a sword gives these enemies realistic hit rates, and have a habit of doing over half health to her. Bartre can run at these guys and basically not care. I feel there's a difference between being able to use a thing and required to use a thing that is being missed here.

It does affect it but regular knights are still going to get ORKO'd by any armorslayer. Bartre still has non-negligable accuracy issues if he wants to try to Steel weapon a Knight tbh. Echidna taking a lot of dmg from enemies like that only matters in the context of situations where we can't afford to heal her, and given the generous deployment slots and generous physic range, it is not difficult for Clarine to mend her up or Saul to Physic or something in scenarios like these.

On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:

Light Brand and Sacae: You not finding enough ways to make use of a 20 durability weapon only proves my point in that the weapon is not actually that useful. It basically tells me you couldn't find roughly 10 or so fights in the game to do it. 10 fights is not a lot. Secondly, Bartre would need to be critted 4 times to go down in Sacae or eat 2 before he's in significant danger as opposed to Echidna who eats 1 crit and is in immediate danger. Thirdly, 70 acc on Light Brand vs 80 on iron bow makes the accuracy difference 4. 4 hit, or double digit damage advantage? Bartre can risk considerably more exposure, and accomplish more with said exposure, while I have to basically tuck Echidna away to basically do 10 damage to an enemy. 

It is actually pretty damn useful, it's just that the optimal team compositions don't really need you to use it that much, esp if you go to Ilia. In Sacae there are better Light Brand EP users (read, Paladins), but that doesn't bar Echidna from being able to have an EP if you wish. Also the Light Brand has 25 uses not 20.

It's not that he needs to be crit 4 times, it's that he takes fucking 16 to 20 damage per round against Nomads who all double him, have good accuracy, AND they have crit on him. You are kidding yourself if you think he has decent EP against these guys, getting doubled is really bad.

On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:

Proud of Sue, Klein and Igrene. They also have nothing to do with comparing Bartre to Echidna. Also, they're arguably not better than Bartre in this specific spot. Klein has 10 or so more base hit, but significantly less durability while facing the same crit rates. Igrene needs 2 speed in what time she has between join time and Sacae to avoid being doubled, as otherwise it's a worse situation for her (though I was unaware she had 11 base defense. If she can get that 2 speed, she'd actually be pretty good here). Not gonna touch on Sue.

Klein has good growths so he can get out of the crit and avoid being doubled. Igrene only needs 1 Speed to not get doubled by most of the Nomads in Sacae. At base she isn't getting doubled by like 90% of them on 17, and that 1 point gets her into over 80% of them not doubling her on 18 and 19. And at the Swordmaster thing, Bartre is still pretty inaccurate even with an Iron Bow against Swordmasters. It's broadly moot since you're actually going to throw a Brave Bow user into a Brave Lance user against them ideally, not Bartre.

On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:

Enemy phase: I'm arguing that Echidna's enemy phase is not actually better. She doubles, and yet Bartre still manages to do roughly the same amount of damage anyways (and is better against higher defense enemies/enemies Echidna can't double). They have roughly the same avoid, except Bartre has 12 more HP and 2 more Def. Despite popular belief, not a lot of enemies actually double Bartre until way later (at which point I could argue Echidna doesn't do enough damage). Even consider getting doubled by a Falco. He would take roughly 38 damage if both hits landed. He could still eat steel from another pegasi and survive, nevermind javelins. Even chapter 21, if it's that bad you can just have him wield Armads. Only time he has ever asked for anything special, and it's probably the best chapter to make use of it. 

Yeah. He doesn't double. Neither do a lot of other people on the roster. Easier problem to work around than deteriorating strength and durability. Again though, ultimately it's a lot closer than I make it out to be, but a lot of the difference between Bartre and Echidna is mostly due to overrating Bartre's speed problem and overrating Echidna's speed advantage, and that it somehow neutralizes the advantages Bartre has. I am merely trying to point out that their performance is not so gap-defining as to justify a tier difference. 

Its make-up-able, I agree. But you are really pushing it to try to pretend the fact Echidna does more damage and has better accuracy isn't that big a deal. Her EP isn't exceptional but doubling automatically gives her much higher chances to actually make an impact for having bothered to expose her on EP, wheras Bartre has one chance to do damage, and potentially takes a lot more. This is not a point about crippling weaknesses, it's that it's frankly not ideal. There are many other units before Bartre that you'd rather be doing EP in these scenarios, and Echidna is definitely one of them. Frankly, if we're talking prepromoted Axe units that don't double, Garret is better than Bartre in many of these scenarios beacuse he's got even better bulk, better speed and skill, and has a much higher chance to oneshot enemies he fights. He also has terrain. Bartre is only really winning because of availability.

I repeat; just think about the things Echidna can do that Bartre can't rather than trying to narrow the argument into situations where neither are doing great. Think about how Echidna can kill Manaketes in Chapter 16 for you that Bartre isn't doing unless you grinded the fuck out of his Axe Rank, which is aids because he doesn't double. You mentioned Armads before, do you know how long it takes for him to get there? It's super unrealistic.

On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:

Lugh and Lot: Chapter 4 is a tough deal with it situation.

The initial Nomad does not double Lugh. The one at the back comes at a point where typically you've stabilised and can surround him if neccessary easily anyway (which is a good idea to protect Shanna, Elen and Wade for that matter, not just Lugh). The only time I would actually want to use the Halberd with Lot in C4 is when everybody else has missed chip on a Cav to the point of neccessitating it to not have to reset anyway, it is not something you go for initially. You are grossly overstating Lugh's survivability problems on this map.

On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:

I would even argue it's more notable in 4 than 7. 7's issue is that all the enemies up there have 1-2 ranged weapons. Marcus will dunk a fool or two and then get equip-traded, but honestly you're probably better off just trying to throw things at the myriad of other enemies out there and hold until you're in position to just blast through the line (so realistically, after the two aggro wyverns are dealt with). Nice, but doesn't feel necessary like it does in 4.

I mean I routinely beat Chapter 4 without using the Halberd and you have to do it in LTC so how is it "neccessary"? It's not neccessary in either map, but in Chapter 7 the point is it's reliable enough and safe enough in the hands of Marcus to have a big impact.

On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:

Also, why the fuck are you bringing Dorothy?

Because Wyverns are fucking assholes and there are two of them that tend to come down at the same time if you're actually trying to recruit Zealot and Treck quickly before they suicide? Another Bow user is way more useful because you can do stuff like have Sue lure the RHS Javelin Wyvern to attack her on EP, whilst Lugh Dorothy and whatever team up on the LHS Wyvern to get him out the way immediately. Dorothy hardly does that badly vs the other enemies on this map too. I even said that if you want to cut her, Merlinus is probably more useful due to free death bait on one of those Wyverns and/or Convoy Warping.

On 27/04/2017 at 5:12 AM, grandjackal said:

Maybe I'm just biased. I find that he requires so much coddling that I feel I might as well just use Lilina. At least she will be leveling faster, dropping nuclear bombs eventually and being a realistic support for at least a few people (though maybe not realistic. Roy is usually in someone's saddlebags, Ashtor's both not a great support for her nor is he long term, and Cecilia's on a horse. 10 to C, but still). 

I actually kind of agree that at that point, I'm inclined to use Lilina instead, but mostly because he probably can't use Elfire by Chapter 8 without favoritism in Chapter 6. Realistically we have to acknowledge that he will have a decent level lead and doesn't struggle to pick up leftover kills (very common in FE6), so his promotion isn't terribly far off. Eventually ORKOing mooks at 2 range is nice, and he can do most of the same Bolting stuff Lilina does, along with Healing and Aircalibur. These are stronger niches than what Lot offers. Remember that Lot also can not reasonably be promoted till you get the second hero crest, and he's competing with units like Fir and Dieck for it, who are much better than he is. Lugh is competing with like, Saul and that's it really, and you do not lose a huge amount for delaying Saul's promotion till 14x.

Edited by Irysa

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On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 2:51 AM, Baldrick said:

Wendy does have semi-unique utility in the triangle attack. Even if it's not relevant in an efficiency context, it's a reason you might want to use Wendy, which is more than you can say for Sophia.

Wasting deployment slots to field 3 armorknights with bad move to gang up on one enemy. Wow.

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23 hours ago, Irysa said:

Klein has good growths so he can get out of the crit and avoid being doubled. Igrene only needs 1 Speed to not get doubled by most of the Nomads in Sacae. At base she isn't getting doubled by like 90% of them on 17, and that 1 point gets her into over 80% of them not doubling her on 18 and 19. And at the Swordmaster thing, Bartre is still pretty inaccurate even with an Iron Bow against Swordmasters. It's broadly moot since you're actually going to throw a Brave Bow user into a Brave Lance user against them ideally, not Bartre.

To add onto this, Klein/Igrene have the ranks to use the Brave Bow/Killer Bow which either ORKOs Nomads or has a chance to crit them. Their accuracy is also better than Bartre's due to higher base Skl (5 for Klein, 7 for Igrene). Bartre doesn't double and doesn't have many opportunities to counter with bows, so he's probably not reaching C bows ever. 

I would take Echidna>Bartre even vs mercs btw, Echidna has more Hit with a Killing Edge than Bartre does with an Iron Bow, has a chance to OHKO with a crit, and counters them on EP. Bartre just chips them- I guess with the Swordreaver he might be ok if you saved that from 10B.

Ultimately there are only 3 units between Echidna and Bartre atm, so it's not like the tier list is suggesting a huge difference. 

Edited by -Cynthia-

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3 hours ago, Titamon said:

Wasting deployment slots to field 3 armorknights with bad move to gang up on one enemy. Wow.

The ability to triple your damage output while guaranteeing a hit (in FE6 no less) is wow-worthy indeed.

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On 4/27/2017 at 5:46 AM, Irysa said:

Chapter 20 Sacae for a reliable clear you either AI manip or Niime should be double Silencing the Sages ASAP, as you don't have enough Bolting charges to deal with them. One of the better uses is actually in helping to clear out Wyverns from the top of the map in Chapter 21. There are not enough places where Bolting is particularly useful that it is a big deal to use it when the 10 range matters.

Why not? He takes no effort to basically be as good as Dieck with an extra point of mov and unique utility. Until like Chapter 21 Astol is being deployed just about every map for me even on a casual PT, wheras Fir you have to actually bother to train.

It does affect it but regular knights are still going to get ORKO'd by any armorslayer. Bartre still has non-negligable accuracy issues if he wants to try to Steel weapon a Knight tbh. Echidna taking a lot of dmg from enemies like that only matters in the context of situations where we can't afford to heal her, and given the generous deployment slots and generous physic range, it is not difficult for Clarine to mend her up or Saul to Physic or something in scenarios like these.

It is actually pretty damn useful, it's just that the optimal team compositions don't really need you to use it that much, esp if you go to Ilia. In Sacae there are better Light Brand EP users (read, Paladins), but that doesn't bar Echidna from being able to have an EP if you wish. Also the Light Brand has 25 uses not 20.

It's not that he needs to be crit 4 times, it's that he takes fucking 16 to 20 damage per round against Nomads who all double him, have good accuracy, AND they have crit on him. You are kidding yourself if you think he has decent EP against these guys, getting doubled is really bad.

Klein has good growths so he can get out of the crit and avoid being doubled. Igrene only needs 1 Speed to not get doubled by most of the Nomads in Sacae. At base she isn't getting doubled by like 90% of them on 17, and that 1 point gets her into over 80% of them not doubling her on 18 and 19. And at the Swordmaster thing, Bartre is still pretty inaccurate even with an Iron Bow against Swordmasters. It's broadly moot since you're actually going to throw a Brave Bow user into a Brave Lance user against them ideally, not Bartre.

Its make-up-able, I agree. But you are really pushing it to try to pretend the fact Echidna does more damage and has better accuracy isn't that big a deal. Her EP isn't exceptional but doubling automatically gives her much higher chances to actually make an impact for having bothered to expose her on EP, wheras Bartre has one chance to do damage, and potentially takes a lot more. This is not a point about crippling weaknesses, it's that it's frankly not ideal. There are many other units before Bartre that you'd rather be doing EP in these scenarios, and Echidna is definitely one of them. Frankly, if we're talking prepromoted Axe units that don't double, Garret is better than Bartre in many of these scenarios beacuse he's got even better bulk, better speed and skill, and has a much higher chance to oneshot enemies he fights. He also has terrain. Bartre is only really winning because of availability.

I repeat; just think about the things Echidna can do that Bartre can't rather than trying to narrow the argument into situations where neither are doing great. Think about how Echidna can kill Manaketes in Chapter 16 for you that Bartre isn't doing unless you grinded the fuck out of his Axe Rank, which is aids because he doesn't double. You mentioned Armads before, do you know how long it takes for him to get there? It's super unrealistic.

The initial Nomad does not double Lugh. The one at the back comes at a point where typically you've stabilised and can surround him if neccessary easily anyway (which is a good idea to protect Shanna, Elen and Wade for that matter, not just Lugh). The only time I would actually want to use the Halberd with Lot in C4 is when everybody else has missed chip on a Cav to the point of neccessitating it to not have to reset anyway, it is not something you go for initially. You are grossly overstating Lugh's survivability problems on this map.

I mean I routinely beat Chapter 4 without using the Halberd and you have to do it in LTC so how is it "neccessary"? It's not neccessary in either map, but in Chapter 7 the point is it's reliable enough and safe enough in the hands of Marcus to have a big impact.

Because Wyverns are fucking assholes and there are two of them that tend to come down at the same time if you're actually trying to recruit Zealot and Treck quickly before they suicide? Another Bow user is way more useful because you can do stuff like have Sue lure the RHS Javelin Wyvern to attack her on EP, whilst Lugh Dorothy and whatever team up on the LHS Wyvern to get him out the way immediately. Dorothy hardly does that badly vs the other enemies on this map too. I even said that if you want to cut her, Merlinus is probably more useful due to free death bait on one of those Wyverns and/or Convoy Warping.

I actually kind of agree that at that point, I'm inclined to use Lilina instead, but mostly because he probably can't use Elfire by Chapter 8 without favoritism in Chapter 6. Realistically we have to acknowledge that he will have a decent level lead and doesn't struggle to pick up leftover kills (very common in FE6), so his promotion isn't terribly far off. Eventually ORKOing mooks at 2 range is nice, and he can do most of the same Bolting stuff Lilina does, along with Healing and Aircalibur. These are stronger niches than what Lot offers. Remember that Lot also can not reasonably be promoted till you get the second hero crest, and he's competing with units like Fir and Dieck for it, who are much better than he is. Lugh is competing with like, Saul and that's it really, and you do not lose a huge amount for delaying Saul's promotion till 14x.

Bolting: Well, why not make use of Bolting to spread out our Sleep uses? At this point I'm just trying to brainstorm. It's a 10 range magic blast. Even with 5 uses, it has to be useful somehow.

-------------------

Ashtor: Considering he has 2 less base Str than Fir and hardly more durable to matter, he doesn't even outperform her that hard at base with Steel. 6 move and Light Brand is a thing, but I wouldn't say claiming Ashtor is another Deick while Fir is some random durdler. 

--------------------

Klein and Swordmasters: By nature, it's hard to get exp on a sniper. For Klein to actually have more luck than base Bartre, he would need to gain 6 levels in 8 chapters as a promoted unit as a sniper. As for Swordmasters, sure. That much is true. The fact Bartre can still make a realistic attempt where Echidna just feeds herself is still an advantage. More shots is better than no shots.

Healing: Bartre needs less healing overall, especially due to the fact he isn't running at lance users with a sword. Advantage Bartre.

Damage: Damage output is subjective. By the numbers yes, Echidna can do more damage against things that she doubles with a killer axe that has less than 12 def to Bartre using a basic iron axe. However, one can take a gander at 13's paladins. Bartre can one shot them with the poleaxe, a weapon specifically meant to kill these guys. Echidna does not one shot them with said weapon, so she must continue relying on the killer axe. To accomplish the same, she would need to crit twice. Bartre can either one shot with a crit (and thus being more economical with said killer axe), Echidna still gets two chances and a crit with a hit is still single digits HP. 

However, this doesn't account for the fact Bartre can see more action due to being more durable. In this same chapter, there are ballista. Other cavaliers (who wield crit weapons like Killer Lances and Axereavers). The cavs with the crit weapons one shot her with a crit, where Bartre can actually eat a crit and survive. The ballistas do a third of her health while Bartre a 4th. Paladins deal half of her health in damage. This is ignoring that the sniper and paladin also have a small chance to crit her as well. Even as soon as chapter 12. The archers typically deal 12 damage to her at roughly 50s accuracy, dark mages 13. Bartre is basically able to take on 1 or 2 extra fights before being concerned. Even despite her doubling with a hand axe or light brand, Bartre still deals more damage in one shot of an iron bow. Bartre can actually one shot dark mages with steel, where Echidna would need to hit twice with a hand axe (at which point, they share the same accuracy). He can even double the steel axe fighters that block your way to the throne and attempt to clog the way out. 

These are trends that essentially carry on throughout the course of the game. People see her damage output with a killer and pretend that her flaws don't exist. She has to play significantly safer where Bartre doesn't. Echidna's performance deteriorates far harder than Bartre does. There are some things Echidna can do but Bartre can't, but the reverse is also true. Echidna's flaws get handwaived so hard it's mindboggling. It may be due to the fact that people just assume Echidna and her route are better so they don't ever actually use Bartre. 

---------------------

Armads: Bartre has A rank, and is big enough at base to run at people. The answer to your question is "not hard". 

Also, no she doesn't. She fails to ORKO, and in response they have 9 displayed crit on her. I'm not even remotely ok with having nearly double digit percent chances of restarting the map. Also, one Manakete doesn't move, and the other is behind a door after a small hallway, which has extremely limited ways to target him. Bartre can just shoot it once with steel, and then anyone with the sword rank can do the same job (without randomly exploding). 

-----------------------

Garret: Garret has 13 con, and lacks bows. Garret is essentially useless against anything with a sword or range, and wielding heavier weapons gets him doubled more certainly than Bartre does (such as the Brave Axe). Garret looks minorly better on paper, but is far more narrow in things he can actually do. 

Btw, have you noticed how in this comparison between Bartre and Echidna that I haven't brought up other characters out of the blue to compare Echidna to? Bad habit I used to have.

------------------------

Lugh: I'm actually doing another playthrough, and I think I gave Lugh less credit than he deserved for chapter 4, maybe a bit of 5. Much as nomads eat him, he is also one of the few characters that has the accuracy to actually hit them (so he is more realistically finishing them off). Same basically applies to mercenaries. Laus's cavaliers are such a pain in the ass to deal with that I can't really handwave Lugh's accurate chip damage/finishing. He weirdly earns kills by being the most realistic character to land the finishing blow anyways. I would still say Lot with the poleaxe shouldn't be ignored though. Letting Laus just storm you is a worse idea, because that will take significantly longer, and you only open yourself to getting overwhelmed even worse. It's not even LTC, I think taking the aggressive approach is smarter. It even opens up opportunity for other units to get exp, such as Lugh or Shanna (Shanna otherwise is tasked specifically with the duty of rushing for the villages, something you have more leeway with going aggressive). Also gives Lugh the opportunity to hang out with some spare dudes by the lake, skipping rocks and killing pirates while your bosskillers attempt to wrestle with Erik on his stupid throne. 

Fuck Erick.

Anyways, I may have turned around a little on Lugh vs Lot, but even with effort and trying in a more casual run, Lugh by chapter 8 is still just level 7. If 9 speed isn't good enough for Oujay, then it doesn't let Lugh have any better. He's still painfully fragile. He still doesn't hit that hard. Looking at his early promotion, I would rather early promote Clarine. 3 less magic, but 15 speed actually doubles things (as opposed to 11). Also, probably pulls her out of getting one shotted. Also also, staff users promote and basically have elite as far as combat goes. So, she still levels fairly well.

In short, while I did give him less credit than he deserves, I still feel generally underwhelmed.

-----------------------

Dorothy: If you're suggesting we split our forces on this map just so she can claim to shoot once at a wyvern, you are insane. Her accuracy even with an iron bow is in the 60s. Lugh and her can't do it alone, Who are we sending over with them? Why are we not just barreling down the right side? We have to rescue Zealot and Treck anyways, and we can do it as soon as they show up. Splitting our forces doesn't sound smart here.

3 hours ago, Baldrick said:

The ability to triple your damage output while guaranteeing a hit (in FE6 no less) is wow-worthy indeed.

NO! No. Don't do this. Trust me, this will get you nowhere. That is not as simple as it sounds. You are still requiring three units to kill one. Three of the worst performing units in the game on their own. Three units that by nature HAVE to be carried everywhere to even see action, let alone accomplish anything useful. That's bad. 

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3 hours ago, grandjackal said:

Bolting: Well, why not make use of Bolting to spread out our Sleep uses? At this point I'm just trying to brainstorm. It's a 10 range magic blast. Even with 5 uses, it has to be useful somehow.

I said Silence, not Sleep. There's a big distinction because Silence only has like 3 places it's worth using in the game, and this is one of them.

It's not my job to demonstrate examples of where Bolting is useful. I've already given some and can say there aren't really many more, so if you believe there are more, prove it.

3 hours ago, grandjackal said:

Ashtor: Considering he has 2 less base Str than Fir and hardly more durable to matter, he doesn't even outperform her that hard at base with Steel. 6 move and Light Brand is a thing, but I wouldn't say claiming Ashtor is another Deick while Fir is some random durdler. 

His combat is comparable to unpromoted Dieck and is better than Fir's until she's been trained, and he has thief utility and the extra point of mov. What are you even actually trying to contest here? Western Isles enemies are pretty difficult to ORKO for most units, so Astor's guaranteed 2RKO, 50%~ chance to ORKO with a KE, and always putting an enemy into kill range is above average at this point. It stops being good after the Isles but he's still got thief utility to carry him.

3 hours ago, grandjackal said:

Klein and Swordmasters: By nature, it's hard to get exp on a sniper. For Klein to actually have more luck than base Bartre, he would need to gain 6 levels in 8 chapters as a promoted unit as a sniper. As for Swordmasters, sure. That much is true. The fact Bartre can still make a realistic attempt where Echidna just feeds herself is still an advantage. More shots is better than no shots.

Advantages have to be meaningful to carry weight. Bartre should not getting significant credit for the fact he has a middling chance to chip a SM for more damage than Echidna can do with a Light Brand.

3 hours ago, grandjackal said:

Healing: Bartre needs less healing overall, especially due to the fact he isn't running at lance users with a sword. Advantage Bartre.

Give an example where you are so strained strategically that you cannot afford to heal Echidna where Bartre can do her job. Because whilst I'll accept they probably exist, the fact I can't really think of many real examples means it's not like this is a particularly significant point as both of these units are usually relegated to second string jobs instead of heavy lifting. It's about as much a point in Bartre's favor as the fact that Echidna has 3 mov in the desert and he has 2, which whilst worth bringing up, does not factor into their use for most of the game.

3 hours ago, grandjackal said:

Damage: Damage output is subjective. By the numbers yes, Echidna can do more damage against things that she doubles with a killer axe that has less than 12 def to Bartre using a basic iron axe. However, one can take a gander at 13's paladins. Bartre can one shot them with the poleaxe, a weapon specifically meant to kill these guys. Echidna does not one shot them with said weapon, so she must continue relying on the killer axe. To accomplish the same, she would need to crit twice. Bartre can either one shot with a crit (and thus being more economical with said killer axe), Echidna still gets two chances and a crit with a hit is still single digits HP. 

There are only 3 Paladins on that map and all are better dealt with with the Horseslayer anyway. Also Bartre does not oneshot the Paladins with the Halberd.

10 Base Mt Halberd + 1 from WTA * 3 = 33

33 + 22 - 14 = 41

Paladins all have over 41 HP. Even vs the lower def Paladins he doesn't do enough to oneshot. Even disregarding that, his chances of connecting that Halberd are poor, so he may just end up doing 0 damage entirely. Comparatively Echidna does more reliable damage and only fails to ORKO the 14 Def Paladins with crit + hit.

3 hours ago, grandjackal said:

However, this doesn't account for the fact Bartre can see more action due to being more durable. In this same chapter, there are ballista. Other cavaliers (who wield crit weapons like Killer Lances and Axereavers). The cavs with the crit weapons one shot her with a crit, where Bartre can actually eat a crit and survive. The ballistas do a third of her health while Bartre a 4th. Paladins deal half of her health in damage. This is ignoring that the sniper and paladin also have a small chance to crit her as well. Even as soon as chapter 12. The archers typically deal 12 damage to her at roughly 50s accuracy, dark mages 13. Bartre is basically able to take on 1 or 2 extra fights before being concerned. Even despite her doubling with a hand axe or light brand, Bartre still deals more damage in one shot of an iron bow. Bartre can actually one shot dark mages with steel, where Echidna would need to hit twice with a hand axe (at which point, they share the same accuracy). He can even double the steel axe fighters that block your way to the throne and attempt to clog the way out. 

Are you actually advocating for having Bartre engage Killer Lance Cavaliers to the face when you have much better ways of dealing with them? Bartre might survive 1 crit but any crit wielding enemy is better dealt with by weakening them at range safely before fighting them face on. It's also funny you mention there are Axereaver Paladins but fail to note that Echidna can get WTA against them too, so if we're being generous then it's an even split for them.

If you play the map correctly then only one Ballista from the enemies is going off, and that's on Turn 1, as the ideal strategy is to rush in with a dance rescuedrop to make the Sniper get off the Ballista.

Why would Echidna be fighting the Sniper on EP? If she's attacking it, it's on PP to the face so she wont face any crit. Only one of the high rolling Paladins has 1 crit on her, and his accuracy against her is poor if she's using an axe. There are plenty of other units who can fight that Paladin if you so want anyway, as Echidna's main job on this map is helping to kill the Mages, Archers and Cavaliers, all of which she does better than Bartre.

Bartre does have good performance in 12 due to Bow access. But this is a favorable map in general for Bow users and not indicative of a larger trend as you say in the next quote.

3 hours ago, grandjackal said:

These are trends that essentially carry on throughout the course of the game. People see her damage output with a killer and pretend that her flaws don't exist. She has to play significantly safer where Bartre doesn't. Echidna's performance deteriorates far harder than Bartre does. There are some things Echidna can do but Bartre can't, but the reverse is also true. Echidna's flaws get handwaived so hard it's mindboggling. It may be due to the fact that people just assume Echidna and her route are better so they don't ever actually use Bartre. 

Of course Echidna has flaws, and of course she falls off. So does Bartre. Both units are basically just filler prepromotes that get deployed for midgame and typically do next to nothing in the lategame. Echidna has more unique advantages and is overall more reliable than Bartre is, and her durability is not worse to the point that she has difficulty helping to contribute. Do you think Bartre just needs to move up above Fir? or do you think he's better than Elen and Igrene? Or does Echidna have to drop? Bartre over these units is a different argument altogether.

3 hours ago, grandjackal said:

Armads: Bartre has A rank, and is big enough at base to run at people. The answer to your question is "not hard". 

Also, no she doesn't. She fails to ORKO, and in response they have 9 displayed crit on her. I'm not even remotely ok with having nearly double digit percent chances of restarting the map. Also, one Manakete doesn't move, and the other is behind a door after a small hallway, which has extremely limited ways to target him. Bartre can just shoot it once with steel, and then anyone with the sword rank can do the same job (without randomly exploding). 

50 attacks with an Axe when you never double is not realistic by the time manaketes appear. By the end of the game possibly, but there are so many other better units to give boots to that Bartre is SoL.

There are basically no units at this point in the game who have C swords and have enough luck to negate Manakete crit at this point in the game besides Percival. Echidna is only about 1 or 2% worse than Alance, Rutger, Fir, etc. It's just a fact of life. One of the better ways to try to deal with the crit is to Light Brand the Manakete down (20 damage per round) until he's in OHKO range though, something Echidna is fine at.

3 hours ago, grandjackal said:

Garret: Garret has 13 con, and lacks bows. Garret is essentially useless against anything with a sword or range, and wielding heavier weapons gets him doubled more certainly than Bartre does (such as the Brave Axe). Garret looks minorly better on paper, but is far more narrow in things he can actually do. 

Btw, have you noticed how in this comparison between Bartre and Echidna that I haven't brought up other characters out of the blue to compare Echidna to? Bad habit I used to have.

lol, if we're pulling the passive-aggressive BS game then the amount of things you have been flat out wrong about so far is by far a worse habit that you need to fix. Seriously, you haven't even admitted you were completely wrong in trying to advocate that Bartre had acceptable EP against Nomads in Sacae. If by your stanards Echidna can only fight 1 Nomad safely on EP, then Bartre can only take 1 as well because of how much damage he takes per round compared to her AND the existant crit he faces. The Garret comparison is to demonstrate that most of Bartre's uses besides Bows are generally better done by what is considered to be a significantly worse unit with not that much worse availability. Bow access for Bartre is a plus, and it deserves to elevate him, but you bring up Steel Bows so much that I begin to wonder if you've ever used him, considering Steel Bow accuracy in this game is pretty ass and not nearly worth the 3 extra damage compared to the 15 extra hit of the Iron Bow.

3 hours ago, grandjackal said:

Anyways, I may have turned around a little on Lugh vs Lot, but even with effort and trying in a more casual run, Lugh by chapter 8 is still just level 7. If 9 speed isn't good enough for Oujay, then it doesn't let Lugh have any better. He's still painfully fragile. He still doesn't hit that hard. Looking at his early promotion, I would rather early promote Clarine. 3 less magic, but 15 speed actually doubles things (as opposed to 11). Also, probably pulls her out of getting one shotted. Also also, staff users promote and basically have elite as far as combat goes. So, she still levels fairly well.

In short, while I did give him less credit than he deserves, I still feel generally underwhelmed.

Clarine's base level is terrible and she won't be able to promote for ages. Only have D Staves means she can't even use the boosted EXP of the Barrier Staff to try to get to promotion faster till she Heals 50 fucking times. How slow do you have to be playing for Clarine to be able to promote before Lugh can? It takes 81 Mends or so to get to level 10, and you only get a dancer much later. Lets not forget that Clarine is stuck with Fire wheras Lugh will have access to basically everything by the time he promotes.

I don't disagree that both mages are pretty underwhelming at this point in the game, but the point about them is that they eventually get some utility and become capable of ORKOing. Lot never has that niche.

3 hours ago, grandjackal said:

Dorothy: If you're suggesting we split our forces on this map just so she can claim to shoot once at a wyvern, you are insane. Her accuracy even with an iron bow is in the 60s. Lugh and her can't do it alone, Who are we sending over with them? Why are we not just barreling down the right side? We have to rescue Zealot and Treck anyways, and we can do it as soon as they show up. Splitting our forces doesn't sound smart here.

What?

Splitting up is the ideal strategy in the map because it's the best way to manage the overwhelming amount of enemies. The ideal strat involves setting up a chokepoint using the forests on the LHS of the map with some units like the Cavaliers and Rutger whilst the remaining units combo on the left. Watch dondon's 0% clear of Chapter 7 if you don't believe me. There is no reliable way to deal with the Wyverns anyway so Steel Bow Dorothy (or if you're lucky with everyone else's hits, possibly Iron, which is in the 70s by the way, not the 60s) is about as good as it gets.

http://imgur.com/a/g4zm5

This is a series of images demonstrating turns 2 and 3 of a strategy I often use in tacking the start of Chapter 7. It's pretty easy to follow the images and the CoS is pretty good.

 

Edited by Irysa

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3 hours ago, grandjackal said:

NO! No. Don't do this. Trust me, this will get you nowhere. That is not as simple as it sounds. You are still requiring three units to kill one. Three of the worst performing units in the game on their own. Three units that by nature HAVE to be carried everywhere to even see action, let alone accomplish anything useful. That's bad. 

Is it worse than deploying Wendy or Sophia on their own, and them doing absolutely nothing because they can't meaningfully engage the enemy?

Roy isn't automatically the best because he uses less deployment slots, so I don't see why Wendy is automatically the worst because she needs more to be useful. Using the triangle attack does cost turns, but it is less or more than the amount of turns Sophia would need to reach the point where she could OHKO with 100% accuracy?

If you think it's not worth discussing, I won't force you. But if you disagree with Wendy>Sophia, please present a proper counterargument.

Edited by Baldrick

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3 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Is it worse than deploying Wendy or Sophia on their own, and them doing absolutely nothing because they can't meaningfully engage the enemy?

Roy isn't automatically the best because he uses less deployment slots, so I don't see why Wendy is automatically the worst because she needs more to be useful. Using the triangle attack does cost turns, but it is less or more than the amount of turns Sophia would need to reach the point where she could OHKO with 100% accuracy?

If you think it's not worth discussing, I won't force you. But if you disagree with Wendy>Sophia, please present a proper counterargument.

Better class, innate 1~2 range, more potent offensive, doesn't face wtd as often and better move. Is that not good enough for Sophia > Wendy?

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19 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Is it worse than deploying Wendy or Sophia on their own, and them doing absolutely nothing because they can't meaningfully engage the enemy?

Yes because you're now using 3 unit slots on bad units instead of just 1. 2 better units could have dealt with the enemy Wendy needed Bors and Barth to deal with before they even all get into position.

Edited by Irysa

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26 minutes ago, Irysa said:

Yes because you're now using 3 unit slots on bad units instead of just 1. 2 better units could have dealt with the enemy Wendy needed Bors and Barth to deal with before they even all get into position.

Not a total waste. 1/3 > 0/1. It's suboptimal, but if you only consider optimal strategies you should only have two tiers: "Contributes to the efficient playthrough" and "Does not contribute".

E.G. Rutger is a more optimal bosskiller than Fir. Does that mean she gets no credit for bosskilling?

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Hey dondon. Mostly just bored. 

@Irysa My mistake on Silence. Not sure why you're being confrontational about Bolting though. I wasn't trying to be if that was the impression I gave. Probably because the Bartre bits.

Anyways, willing to concede the Lugh Lot thing. Been convinced on points given. 

As for Echidna and Bartre, I dislike assuming that somehow in her glorious enemy phase she's somehow switching between swords and axes to deal with a reaver,I dislike saying Bartre being able to actually take these hits and then saying "but you're better off dealing with it from range first" when he is specifically better at doing that as well. I dislike thinking that strats in FE6 go so perfectly that we apparently never need healing. In a way, I feel we both are being unreasonable here.

Funny that using Bartre is mentioned, because I just got done using him. I generally felt like I could do more with him for longer. If we're just deciding that Echidna is better, I would still say the tier gap makes no sense. I see no reason for him to be in the same tier as the "we exist" tier. Bartre is immediately a good unit where him being used is fairly realistic for a while. Most people in mid tier are mostly trainable/usable but are overall mediocre. He just doesn't fit there (and I would argue Ellen fits those parameters, despite staffs being a special case). 

I could at least argue him over Igrene on basics alone. Igrene is pretty decent on one route (in fairness, it's the harder route) and is a great filler bow unit, but still has all the issues that come with being bow locked. Bartre's also been around longer, time spent being one of the better units on the force. Igrene shows up good, but by her appearance is not that special in comparison. 

@Baldrick One unit requiring two other units to do the job of one or two is the opposite of efficient. This isn't even about contribution, it is actively doing the opposite of what we want to justify a unit's existence.

I promise you, this ends in tears.

Edited by grandjackal
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@Grandjackal

If we're assuming Wendy is being deployed, there are two ways to make her not a waste. One is using up two more deployment slots, the other is feeding her kills until she's self-sufficient. I think the latter is less painful, but if you're trying to suggest I'm not going to convince anyone of that, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Edited by Baldrick

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Adding three 0s to the team still comes out as 0 is the primary problem here. The only difference in fielding one or three is that you get a power ranger squad that does nothing instead of one do nothing unit. They can break dance all they want, we lose more than we gain in using them and the gain is 0.

I say this more because I've tried this before because I get in over my head more often than not. I'm more familiar with the FE6 armors than any reasonable person should be. I use them regularly at the cost of dignity and self respect as basically everyone here knows. People know these units are unplayable, but I understand the intricate and subtle ways that Wendy and her ilk are walking trash cans. It's like the Chinese Room, except instead of a language, it's garbage. 

I know this isn't exactly encouraging or helpful dialogue, but I have legitimate regrets over this. There are more constructive things that could be talked about on the list. For example, the Fir credited with boss kills thing you brought up.

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4 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Not a total waste. 1/3 > 0/1. It's suboptimal, but if you only consider optimal strategies you should only have two tiers: "Contributes to the efficient playthrough" and "Does not contribute".

E.G. Rutger is a more optimal bosskiller than Fir. Does that mean she gets no credit for bosskilling?

A unit can be a detriment if they are deployed. The reality is that it costs more efficiency to get Wendy to do anything than it does to have her do nothing, especially if we're talking about having to wait/dedicate rescuedrops for 2 other low mov units (one of which cannot be rescued except by unpromoted Shanna or Shin) to set up for her.

It's not 1/3 > 0/1, it's actually more like -1 > -3. Even if you want to argue the utility of all 3 armor Knights at least amounts to 1, you're still at -2 because nearly nearly every single possible extra unit combination of Wendy + 2 others is better than Wendy + 2 Armors.

To assume a unit is being used does not mean we completely waive the costs associated with using them. Even when we assume Wendy is being used, the amount of cost associated with actually using her is still less if she's by herself, beause she could be doing something like holding onto extra items someone needs at a later point in the map, shopping, visiting a house, carrying someone, etc. It doesn't have to be combat.

3 hours ago, grandjackal said:

As for Echidna and Bartre, I dislike assuming that somehow in her glorious enemy phase she's somehow switching between swords and axes to deal with a reaver,I dislike saying Bartre being able to actually take these hits and then saying "but you're better off dealing with it from range first" when he is specifically better at doing that as well. I dislike thinking that strats in FE6 go so perfectly that we apparently never need healing. In a way, I feel we both are being unreasonable here.

I never assumed she could swap during EP, merely that against those Axereaver Cavaliers she has an advantage that you're failing to note.

Bartre being able to take a crit in that scenario is not a significant advantage when that is a bad way to deal with them, Echidna does more damage at 2 range with the Light Brand anyway, and is more accurate with the Halberd that you're so fond of insisting is worth using.

I never assumed we don't need healing, I said that you usually have flexability in healing targets especially since enemies are not that accurate, so scenarios where we cannot afford to heal Echidna are not that common.

3 hours ago, grandjackal said:

Funny that using Bartre is mentioned, because I just got done using him. I generally felt like I could do more with him for longer. If we're just deciding that Echidna is better, I would still say the tier gap makes no sense. I see no reason for him to be in the same tier as the "we exist" tier. Bartre is immediately a good unit where him being used is fairly realistic for a while. Most people in mid tier are mostly trainable/usable but are overall mediocre. He just doesn't fit there (and I would argue Ellen fits those parameters, despite staffs being a special case). 

He's not in the "we exist" tier, he's a tier of units who have an overall positive impact on the team but are typically outclassed or have costs that are non negligble to the point of making using them questionable. Bartre fits there fine if you ask me. Elen has basically 3 maps of being our only healer and can realistically reach Warp for Chapter 16x, which is a very big turn save, and then do some Warping in midgame to help save more turns, which means she has scenarios where she is contributing a lot more than Bartre ever is.

3 hours ago, grandjackal said:

I could at least argue him over Igrene on basics alone. Igrene is pretty decent on one route (in fairness, it's the harder route) and is a great filler bow unit, but still has all the issues that come with being bow locked. Bartre's also been around longer, time spent being one of the better units on the force. Igrene shows up good, but by her appearance is not that special in comparison. 

Igrene is good on both routes (Ilia mostly she is still effective against Pegs and can use Ballistae) but is one of your better units on the harder one, significantly better than Bartre. Bartre is not one of the better units in your army unless you are using a team composing of a lot of below mid-tiers. He is above average but he's still worse than many others. Igrene's bow rank makes her significantly better in many scenarios than Bartre due to access to weapons like the Brave Bow, and she can have real EP in various scenarios and function as a bosskiller (Chapter 16, all of Sacae, Narcian post Delphi Shield steal, Sigune, etc). Bartre has no strong niches like this.

Bartre's availability lead is essentially 1 Chapter that he's good in (12), 2 that he's decent in (12x, 13), and 2 that he's mediocre in (14, 14x). This is not enough of a lead to really offset the fact that Igrene can actually keep getting deployed well past the point Bartre is falling off. For example, Igrene even as filler is handy in lategame maps like 21 and 23 as another unit to help kill Wyverns reliably. Bartre doesn't double and never oneshots so he needs help to combo with, wheras Igrene can use the Brave Bow.

Edited by Irysa

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35 minutes ago, Irysa said:

A unit can be a detriment if they are deployed. The reality is that it costs more efficiency to get Wendy to do anything than it does to have her do nothing, especially if we're talking about having to wait/dedicate rescuedrops for 2 other low mov units (one of which cannot be rescued except by unpromoted Shanna or Shin) to set up for her.

It's not 1/3 > 0/1, it's actually more like -1 > -3. Even if you want to argue the utility of all 3 armor Knights at least amounts to 1, you're still at -2 because nearly nearly every single possible extra unit combination of Wendy + 2 others is better than Wendy + 2 Armors.

By that logic, a team of Miledy/Percival/.../Wendy is less efficient than Miledy/Percival/.../an empty slot. (M+P+W - 3 compared to M+P-2 where W < 1). A clear deploying 8 units is obviously more efficient than a clear deploying 9 units and taking the same amount of turns.

So, for maximum efficiency, we must assume Wendy is not used. The rules of the tier list should probably be changed.

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I expanded on that point further on, and that specific number was purposely a bit hyperbolic. Wendy at least can exist on a map and do the things I outlined earlier, which whilst small is like still only worth like 0.1 to 0.5 points or something. It's better than an empty slot (at least on most maps, by really lategame it's probably detrimental)

But deploying Bors and Barth too means you go from possibly having like 2.5 to being 1.5. Bors and Barth don't have to be assumed in Wendy's usage.

Edited by Irysa

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But doesn't it cost more efficiency for Wendy to do anything than to do nothing? An empty slot always does nothing, so it can't be worse than Wendy.

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I have said earlier and elsewhere that no unit is truly completely useless, or can do literally nothing, so Wendy only really would reach into negative utility in really lategame scenarios where even keeping her alive is difficult. I accept I was being overly hyperbolic in the first part of my earlier reply. I retract that statement.

Overall, Wendy being deployed is worth something, just nearly nothing (aside from some maps where it's hard to keep her safe). But deploying Bors and Barth to put her up to 0.5 has a cost associated with it in meaning we used up 2 more slots we could have used on better units, and are also dedicating more units to moving them around.

Edited by Irysa

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Fair enough. Sorry if I was annoying about it.

I don't feel like continuing this right now. Maybe later.

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