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When did Fates plot stop working for you?

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7 hours ago, Nanima said:

That's not a valid argument at all, since there is no S-support between any two females besides F!Corrin and Rhajat. And even if there was, the fact that Elise is too young and looks at Azura as a sister (regardless of blood) is enough to explain it. With that argument every female in the game could be related to each other. Furthermore, Elise asumption that Azura is her blood sister, is coming from her supposed relation to Garon not a common link with Arete. Elise is very much aware that her mother was a concubine, which is explained outside of Revelations, so the argument that it only existed for that is void. Also Azura likely spend more than a few years in Nohr, since she has a lot of clear memories of the bullying that happened to her. Azura isn't really in need of a "true" connection to Nohr, since it's a heavy point for her that she feels isolated in every place she has ever been in. Furthermore, Elise being Arete's child would necessitate a rewrite of the exact circumstances of Azura's life in Nohr, since she lost her mother during it which then led to an increase in bullying. Arete's death was also the time Garon went bonkers, yet it's very important for the relationship of Elise and Azura that the former was only born after Azura's kidnapping, so they never got to meet each other. You'd basically have to invent entirely new circumstances of the story of both characters just to make that tiny thing work.

Again, Nohr and Conquest run on the theme of "loyalty" and how you don't have to share blood to be family. You still haven't addressed this.

While it's understandable that you would feel this way, Elise actually has more development with her canon mom than the rest of her siblings. The fact that she was present when she died and realized that she never loved her is something important to her character and her siblings' desire to shield her from the cruelties of court. Changing all that should not leave us with the exact same Elise. You would have to do a lot of rewriting for something like this. It's nice to have headcanons, but you need to be aware of their implications when trying to incorporate them into the actual story.

You're using some crazy logic with the S supports there. It's hard to even follow. No two females have S supports therefore any of them can be sisters? You're looking at it from completely the wrong angle. That's not what I'm trying to claim in the slightest. What I am saying is that the two characters that are legitimate sisters by marriage could be sisters by blood since there's no eugenics mechanic between them that makes incest a problem. Now granted I wasn't aware of Elise's canon development with her mom (even though I recently read it in one of the Scribbles entires), that's decent stuff and the sort of thing I'd like to see them throw in if they're going to make parents posthumous characters with no bearing on the plot. Overall though I don't think the change would require nearly as much rewriting as you claim, and the themes of Conquest would remain in tact since as far as the game is concerned, Azura is a blood siblings of Nohr with only the tiniest suggestion that she's not (a reason that isn't expanded upon purely to keep facilitate Revelations). I'm quite sure that if Revelations didn't exist then Azura would have been a legitimate royal of Nohr (though probably via Garon).

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I absolutely hated Revelations, in my opinion the only GOOD things about it were that you can acquire every character in Fates (minus a couple Units) and that you can unlock the awakened Yato in it. 

Other than that, I thought it was absolutely the worst and ended up skipping scenes more and more as I got closer to the end. It's just nothing but Convenience.
[Incoming Revelations Spoilers] The whole traitor ordeal with Gunter, was stupid, especially since you get him back right after defeating him, and that he has no supports at all in Revelations basically gives it away that he's going to betray you. I also hated that for no good reason they killed off Scarlet in this path, and also, what the h*** is Nyx doing at the Rainbow Sage's trial grounds? " I want to avoid everyone, where's a good place to go? Oh I know, this place filled with Armies from Hoshido and Nohr! " 
There's so much more I hated about Revelations, but I'm really not going to bother continuing, because I don't really enjoy making myself angry, lmao. [Revalations Spoilers Done]

THAT BEING SAID. Although none of the Fire Emblem: Fates paths were exactly... good.. I really enjoyed Conquest story wise, and honestly makes way more sense than any other path, because, think about this: If you were told that your family, right now, wasn't your real family, and that your "real" family by blood wanted to take you away from the "fake" family, would you seriously choose to go with them? Because honestly what sense does that make? Fight for the people you actually know, or the people you just now met?
Maybe if they had spent a bit more time with the Hoshidan family before presenting you with this choice, it could've made sense, but they didn't, so. That's that I suppose.

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1 hour ago, UnwantedFortune said:

THAT BEING SAID. Although none of the Fire Emblem: Fates paths were exactly... good.. I really enjoyed Conquest story wise, and honestly makes way more sense than any other path, because, think about this: If you were told that your family, right now, wasn't your real family, and that your "real" family by blood wanted to take you away from the "fake" family, would you seriously choose to go with them? Because honestly what sense does that make? Fight for the people you actually know, or the people you just now met?
Maybe if they had spent a bit more time with the Hoshidan family before presenting you with this choice, it could've made sense, but they didn't, so. That's that I suppose.

Yeah the choice makes a certain degree of sense...but then if you discovered the supposed father you barely knew was practically Hitler it would change things quite a bit.

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6 hours ago, Jotari said:

You're using some crazy logic with the S supports there. It's hard to even follow. No two females have S supports therefore any of them can be sisters? You're looking at it from completely the wrong angle. That's not what I'm trying to claim in the slightest. What I am saying is that the two characters that are legitimate sisters by marriage could be sisters by blood since there's no eugenics mechanic between them that makes incest a problem. 

I find your way of using this fact as some sort of support statement for Elise and Azura being related to be ridiculous, which is what I was trying to point out to you. It's a ridiculously small factoid that could apply to virtually any other "Oh look these guys are related" theory, so I just don't get why you  bring it up and present it as if it's incredibly important for your headcanon to be valid. F!Corrin can't marry her female step-/adoptive siblings either, not just Azura. 

Anyway, I'll stop here since it's dragging off topic and also literally going nowhere.

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38 minutes ago, Nanima said:

I find your way of using this fact as some sort of support statement for Elise and Azura being related to be ridiculous, which is what I was trying to point out to you. It's a ridiculously small factoid that could apply to virtually any other "Oh look these guys are related" theory, so I just don't get why you  bring it up and present it as if it's incredibly important for your headcanon to be valid. F!Corrin can't marry her female step-/adoptive siblings either, not just Azura. 

Anyway, I'll stop here since it's dragging off topic and also literally going nowhere.

The position I was coming from is that the reason Corrin wasn't actually a blood sibling of the Hoshidons had less to do with servicing the plot and more to do with S Support mechanics. The same is not true with Azura but they still made her unrelated to her apparent family anyway.

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Conquest: I can't say when I exactly gave up on the plot here as there were a number of moments where I just didn't get where the plot was trying to go. Chapter 15, as said before, is where I drew the line as Valla's appearance and everything that came with it made the story jump off the cliff into a deep pit that it could never climb out of.

Revelations: Pretty much when we first visit Valla really, as Azura withholding information due to the contrived plot device and Anankos' role in general removed a lot of the interest that I had in the story. The pointless deaths, Anthony in general, and some of the other issues also didn't help my perception of the story and I honestly don't consider it that much better then Conquest because of that.

Edited by Medeus

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13 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yeah the choice makes a certain degree of sense...but then if you discovered the supposed father you barely knew was practically Hitler it would change things quite a bit.

If I learned that my Dad was practically Hitler, that would only compell me to side with Nohr even more, as I would be able to make a much larger difference from the inside-out, not to mention I wouldn't want to abandon everyone I know and love simply because one person I thought I knew turned out to be horrible.

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27 minutes ago, UnwantedFortune said:

If I learned that my Dad was practically Hitler, that would only compell me to side with Nohr even more, as I would be able to make a much larger difference from the inside-out, not to mention I wouldn't want to abandon everyone I know and love simply because one person I thought I knew turned out to be horrible.

Oh to be sure but...that's not what Corrin does in Conquest. Which is why people talk about losing interest in the story when it becomes very clear it's not something s/he's going to do.

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49 minutes ago, Medeus said:

Conquest: I can't say when I exactly gave up on the plot here as there were a number of moments where I just didn't get where the plot was trying to go. Chapter 15, as said before, is where I drew the line as Valla's appearance and everything that came with it made the story jump off the cliff into a deep pit that it could never climb out of.

Revelations: Pretty much when we first visit Valla really, as Azura withholding information due to the contrived plot device and Anankos' role in general removed a lot of the interest that I had in the story. The pointless deaths, Anthony in general, and some of the other issues also didn't help my perception of the story and I honestly don't consider it that much better then Conquest in that regard.

lol, that's literally the first chapter after the split.  The whole path must've sucked for you, then.

I think in spite of Revelation presenting the stupid plot device kingdom and all that, it had some good bits before the big Valla arc that takes up half the path.  Still had some of the dumb stuff that plagued other paths, like Camilla having an odd obsession with wanting to kill Corrin and cradle his/her corpse, or Xander having trouble turning on his bastard of a father.  But the story of the dragons told by the Rainbow Sage is the most world-building we ever got in the game, and forging all the alliances you do in the game is nice.  Though it just amounts to a very disappointing saga marred by senseless pandering and... not a lot of actual explaining.

Also, I can understand not being able to pinpoint where Conquest failed, exactly.  It has ups and downs.  I liked the stuff about doing good behind the scenes, and I even liked that in spite of your best efforts, you still aren't able to save everyone.  C 15 is the easiest place to know because almost nothing afterwards was "uphill", since it feels like you just have to bide your time waiting for the siblings to realize that Garon is actually evil; the turning point in C 26 is the only part after C 15 I feel where it really soars at all,  and that's only because you're finally taking action against the obviously evil goons in your army.

14 hours ago, UnwantedFortune said:

THAT BEING SAID. Although none of the Fire Emblem: Fates paths were exactly... good.. I really enjoyed Conquest story wise, and honestly makes way more sense than any other path, because, think about this: If you were told that your family, right now, wasn't your real family, and that your "real" family by blood wanted to take you away from the "fake" family, would you seriously choose to go with them? Because honestly what sense does that make? Fight for the people you actually know, or the people you just now met?
Maybe if they had spent a bit more time with the Hoshidan family before presenting you with this choice, it could've made sense, but they didn't, so. That's that I suppose.

Except Corrin's memory of his/her supposed blood-relation does actually return, so it isn't really even a matter of trusting them.  And like Jotari said, through that memory (and through numerous trying experiences), you learn that Garon is, in fact, an evil bastard with no actual redeemable traits.  I think I've said this before, but the only person who remembers a time when Garon was a genuinely good person is Xander.

I could understand wanting to stick with the Nohrians simply for the siblings.  Heck, that justification even aids the line of thinking Corrin goes through; that maybe Garon has a good reason for all of this madness.  After all, such genuinely good people must've had a kind father to raise them that way.  But it isn't like there's no justification at all for joining the Hoshidans, either.

What it comes down to is this: you could side with the Nohrians, whom you have clear memories of and are very fond of, but aren't your actual siblings and work for a cruel king who, at best, is misguided into believing that brutality is necessary in conflicts like the ones with Hoshido... or you could side with the Hoshidans, whom you have only fractured memories of, but are devoted to defeating a cruel and evil king, whom you know are your siblings (ignoring the fact that they aren't, because at the time you're under the assumption that they are), and whom you likely assume that you did share some happy moments with for a time.  Also, maybe the rage at Garon being responsible for both Sumeragi and Mikoto's deaths (and also attempting to kill you, supposedly) might trump the desire to "learn more" about Garon's motives.

For some, emotional bonds are thicker than those of blood and even are enough to trump rationale and morality (though again, it isn't necessarily unreasonable for Corrin to want to hear from Garon).  For others, blood-relation is very important, and there's no way they can see Garon's actions as being justifiable (which could also be seen as an irrational reaction).  I think for as poorly written as Fates is in general, they do a decent job of giving you equal justification for joining either side in the prologue.  Which is ultimately trumped by the outcome of both paths and Revelation, the obvious "golden ending".  But I'm talking strictly the binary choice and only the moments leading up to the decision, not those after.

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Birthright lost my interest fairly quickly.

Conquest never "stopped working" for me until the end, when I kek'd out loud because holy shit are Sakura and Hinoka delusional?

Revelations stopped working right when they got to Valla. I admit, I was enjoying the chapters up till that point, but when it happened... yeesh. It was pretty damn boring from then on, like Birthright.

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For Conquest, it was the events at Cheve. It really made me not like the main character.

 

In Revelations, it was ruined at the very start when both sets of siblings decide to attack you for no apparent reason. It immediately broke my suspension of disbelief, and made me more susceptible to the horribly illogical plot.

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I don't mean to be the elitist dude who is like "Fates was a pile of trash, so terrible," because that isn't true. The gameplay was balanced and the soundtrack was fantastic. 

But good lord, the story was an absolute mess. I feel like I could genuinely write a short series about all the shortcomings of each route, each villain, and the main character, Corrin. 

The first time through each route, I semi enjoyed each story. It wasn't until I replayed them and thought about them more that things started to really fall apart. 

There is honestly so much to say. Corrin is awful in all three routes, Valla's curse is plain stupid, the "magical orb" in Conquest is unbelievably inconvenient and flawed, Birthright is flat out boring, Garon is a weak villain that could've been fleshed out so much more, Mikoto could've been a really interesting character, but oops! She dies. I think the only few things I actually like about all 3 games is Takumi's situation in Conquest, and... honestly that's all I can think of off the top of my head. I really wanted to like Fates, but the story (and the character writing, but that's for a different topic) stopped me from doing so. 

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Conquest: I was already a bit disappointed that this path wasnt actually doing anything really cool, but i was getting kinda ok with Corn hiding shit from Garon and acting like a bloodthirsty prat a bit for Garon. And im like "i might be able to live with this." Then Chapter 15 happened and thats when it all went downhill.

Birthright: I actually dont have any issues with this path outside two things. The first being Flora's really useless self immolation. That...literally had no reason to happen whatsoever. The second, being if you dont get an A support with Kaze, something really dumb happens. I havent not gotten the A support, cuz i dont want that really dumb thing to happen. Other than that, its ok. However, Ryoma not knowing how bad off Nohr was with its resources struck me as fucking stupid. What kind of prince of a nation doesnt know about the nation they've been warring with? My dude...

Revelation: Once we got to Valla, shit just fucking smelled bad and i kept wondering when anything interesting was ever going to happen. It never did.

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Speaking from someone who has played all the paths, it began with Birthright, was expanded in Conquest, and exploded in Revelations. Without diving into spoilers, let's just say that when I found out how much a certain character knew about things, I immediately saw the whole plot of all three paths crumble completely.

 

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