Origins of Mila and Duma (unmarked Endgame spoilers)

[omegaxis1]

9 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Thats clearly a light elemental stone and the battle graphics of the SNES version are clearly supposed to be based around light rather then engine limitations. As for it being light green, keep in mind Shadow Breath is purple. I believe Binding Blade also referred to Divine Dragons having powers based around light. A Fire Dragon's tome was a Fire tome, A Earth/Shadow Dragon's tome was Dark, and A Divine Dragon's tome was light. They were obviously meant to be light elemental from the very beginning, no doubts about it.

Noooo, that's clearly a dragonstone with a Divine Dragon figure inside it to indicate that its a Divine Dragon's Dragonstone. Doesn't show it being as a light elemental dragonstone. 

So... you go with the color based cause of yellow and blue for mist and red and blue for shadow? 

Keep Binding Blade out of this, since that's not an established continent that's part of Archanea's world. 

If Salamand is Fire Dragon (and I personally think he is), its the fire tome Valflame. Naga's is her tome being light. Loptyr is darkness. I'll believe those. Maybe that's the thing. They were "intended" to. But the ever expanding universe, the creators just can't help but "add" stuff in. 

16 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Forsetti states in FE4 that the Earth tribe equals the Divine Dragons in power. It'd be absurd if the Divine Dragons were also masters of Earth and Shadow magic. 

Forsetti didn't indicate Earth Dragons were equal in power due to the manakete event, Naga and Loptyr's tomes were equal in his words, while the Earth Tribe was described as possessing the most fearsome power of the dragon tribes.

Again, Mila raising crops doesn't indicate "earth" powers. It more indicates "life" powers. She gives life to the crops in the land. And when she is sealed, zombies start to rise, meaning its her powers being distorted in the land. 

Actually, Naga and Loptyr's tomes weren't equals. He said that Loptyr's tome was too powerful and that they just simply needed Naga's. Given how Loptyr feared Naga's tome so often, its likely they weren't equals, and how the game had Julia be able to easily kill Julius, its clear that Loptyr and Naga weren't truly equals. 

Also, 

15 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

On the hardest difficulty of the remake, several Earth Dragons also don't get sealed by the Shield either. 

That's purely game mechanic. Not all the Earth Dragons vanish just to make the final chapter that much harder. 

1 minute ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

naga made the Binding Shield as far as I am aware; it is very odd if they're pure light elementals that she'd make not only Star, Light, and Life, but also Darkness and Earth based spheres- both elements Duma uses as far as we can see.

A VERY good point. The Gemstones are stated to be Divine Dragon treasures.

19 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Maybe, but then I'd question then for how long Darros and Beck have been there (since that's where the remake placed them, Darros in Ch12, and Beck in Ch13), and if it's really that inhospitable to non-dragons.

Darros I can't explain but Beck I think is that he was looking for Anna and knows there was a secret shop there.

[Emperor Hardin]

18 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Noooo, that's clearly a dragonstone with a Divine Dragon figure inside it to indicate that its a Divine Dragon's Dragonstone. Doesn't show it being as a light elemental dragonstone. 

So... you go with the color based cause of yellow and blue for mist and red and blue for shadow? 

Keep Binding Blade out of this, since that's not an established continent that's part of Archanea's world. 

If Salamand is Fire Dragon (and I personally think he is), its the fire tome Valflame. Naga's is her tome being light. Loptyr is darkness. I'll believe those. Maybe that's the thing. They were "intended" to. But the ever expanding universe, the creators just can't help but "add" stuff in. 

Again, Mila raising crops doesn't indicate "earth" powers. It more indicates "life" powers. She gives life to the crops in the land. And when she is sealed, zombies start to rise, meaning its her powers being distorted in the land. 

Actually, Naga and Loptyr's tomes weren't equals. He said that Loptyr's tome was too powerful and that they just simply needed Naga's. Given how Loptyr feared Naga's tome so often, its likely they weren't equals, and how the game had Julia be able to easily kill Julius, its clear that Loptyr and Naga weren't truly equals. 

Also, 

That's purely game mechanic. Not all the Earth Dragons vanish just to make the final chapter that much harder. 

A VERY good point. The Gemstones are stated to be Divine Dragon treasures.

Darros I can't explain but Beck I think is that he was looking for Anna and knows there was a secret shop there.

It fits the elemental color scheme of all the other dragonstone, Firestone is red for fire, Icestone is blue for ice, Divinestone is gold for light.

Gold and light blue are the colors of light magic in the series.

Binding Blade is still based on Archanea, they're continuing Kaga's theme of Divine Dragons having light powers. Forsetti even calls Naga, the "God of light" and a villager notes Naga's powers was rooted in light. Same villager also states Naga and Loptyr had an endless battle.

Salamander literally has the draconic name of the Fire Tribe, just like Naga with the Divine Dragons, he's obviously a Fire Dragon.

Forsetti said stated Loptyr's tribes wields the most fearsome power of the dragon tribes and only Naga's tome can match it. Quoted: Yet Loptyr's clan wields the most diabolic power of the entire tribe. He said Naga was the only crusader weapon that could hope to match it.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

It fits the elemental color scheme of all the other dragonstone, Firestone is red for fire, Icestone is blue for ice, Divinestone is gold for light.

That's not gold, though. That's white, or clear. The gold color is actually from the Divine Dragon shape inside it. Even the sprite form of the Divine Dragonstone is clear, not gold. 

6 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Binding Blade is still based on Archanea, they're continuing Kaga's theme of Divine Dragons having light powers. Forsetti even calls Naga, the "God of light" and a villager notes Naga's powers was rooted in light. Same villager also states Naga and Loptyr had an endless battle.

Naga could have "light" based powers, but that doesn't confirm that Divine means light. 

7 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Salamander literally has the draconic name of the Fire Tribe, just like Naga with the Divine Dragons, he's obviously a Fire Dragon.

I don't deny that. I never said that I particularly deny that. I'm with the argument that the 12 Dragons in the Miracle of Darna are multiple tribes working together: divine, ice, mage, and fire. 

8 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Forsetti said stated Loptyr's tribes wields the most fearsome power of the dragon tribes and only Naga's tome can match it. Quoted: Yet Loptyr's clan wields the most diabolic power of the entire tribe. He said Naga was the only crusader weapon that could hope to match it.

Yes, I am well aware of the words said. I'm just saying that in actuality, they were not truly equals, as Loptyr clearly feared Naga's power because it was greater than his own, and Julia with Naga's power easily trounced Loptyr's power. Of course, you could argue that Loptyr feared Naga's power only because it the ONLY power to have the ability to defeat him. 

[Emperor Hardin]

13 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's not gold, though. That's white, or clear. The gold color is actually from the Divine Dragon shape inside it. Even the sprite form of the Divine Dragonstone is clear, not gold. 

Naga could have "light" based powers, but that doesn't confirm that Divine means light. 

I don't deny that. I never said that I particularly deny that. I'm with the argument that the 12 Dragons in the Miracle of Darna are multiple tribes working together: divine, ice, mage, and fire. 

Yes, I am well aware of the words said. I'm just saying that in actuality, they were not truly equals, as Loptyr clearly feared Naga's power because it was greater than his own, and Julia with Naga's power easily trounced Loptyr's power. Of course, you could argue that Loptyr feared Naga's power only because it the ONLY power to have the ability to defeat him. 

White is also associated with the Light element, just how the Firestone is red even without the Fire Dragon image.

It confirms Divine Dragons are based around light.

Possibly Earth too, based off some of the powers of the weapons.

The lines I showed described Loptyr was Naga's equal and Naga's victory over him as tough.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

White is also associated with the Light element, just how the Firestone is red even without the Fire Dragon image.

That's not a direct confirmation. If it had been gold, it would have been definite. But its clear/white/silver, which could mean multiple aspects. 

4 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

It confirms Divine Dragons are based around light.

Confirms Naga is light based. You still have yet to explain the Divine Dragon treasures that have "earth" and "dark" in there as well. If anything, this strengthens Duma and Mila's abilities and still be Divine. 

5 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Possibly Earth too, based off some of the powers of the weapons.

Not Earth. The interview confirmed that no Earth Dragon sided with humans. 

5 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The lines I showed described Loptyr was Naga's equal.

I know. I said that in actuality, it was showing rather than telling that its an exaggeration of Loptyr's powers, as Naga's power easily defeated Loptyr. Its possible that Loptyr's power was above the average Divine Dragon, but Naga wasn't an average Divine Dragon. She was the leader of the tribe, and the most powerful. 

[Emperor Hardin]

16 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's not a direct confirmation. If it had been gold, it would have been definite. But its clear/white/silver, which could mean multiple aspects. 

Confirms Naga is light based. You still have yet to explain the Divine Dragon treasures that have "earth" and "dark" in there as well. If anything, this strengthens Duma and Mila's abilities and still be Divine. 

Not Earth. The interview confirmed that no Earth Dragon sided with humans. 

I know. I said that in actuality, it was showing rather than telling that its an exaggeration of Loptyr's powers, as Naga's power easily defeated Loptyr. Its possible that Loptyr's power was above the average Divine Dragon, but Naga wasn't an average Divine Dragon. She was the leader of the tribe, and the most powerful. 

No, the color white is also associated with Light magic.

Naga is the icon of Divine Dragons, the tribe is even called the Naga Clan. Naga's power reflect the pinnacle of their powers, the others are based around light just as their leader.

No it, it weakens the argument as Naga's powers are based around light while Duma's powers rely on Earth and Darkness, unlike Divine Dragons. There's no evidence at all that the spheres on the Fire Emblem were made from Divine Dragon powers alone.

Medeus did, remember? 

Naga easily defeated Loptyr only in gameplay, lore describes Naga's victory as difficult.

If anything, you've shown nothing for Divine Dragons having elemental powers outside of light.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Emperor Hardin said:

Naga is the icon of Divine Dragons, the tribe is even called the Naga Clan. Naga's power reflect the pinnacle of their powers, the others are based around light just as their leader. No it, it weakens the argument as Naga's powers are based around light while Duma's powers rely on Earth and Darkness, unlike Divine Dragons.

No, it weakens your argument that Divine Dragons are purely "light" based, because those are Divine Dragon Treasures that possess Light, Life, Dark, Star, and Earth based spheres, two parts are elements you claim Divine Dragon shouldn't have. Now that Dark and Earth are potential elements that Divine Dragons could manipulate, that more works in Duma's favor of being Divine Dragon, but possessing said "dark" and "earth" powers. 

2 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Medeus did, remember? 

No. Medeus never sided with humans. Medeus simply agreed to take manakete form, but by no means was it ever stated that he ever liked or sided with humans. He just wasn't so blinded by pride to see that taking manakete form was his only chance to avoid degenerating. 

3 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Naga easily defeated Loptyr only in gameplay, lore describes Naga's victory as difficult.

Let's actually delve deeper into that. Why did Naga die at only age 5000 (possibly hinted of age), yet its very likely that all dragons in general can live absurdly long time. Bantu looks like an old man by Marth's time, but is still alive by Awakening, 2000 years later. Now, if we look at the events, particularly with the new info Echoes gives, Naga creates a Falchion a long time before the war with the Earth Dragons. Then from what we know, many years later goes through the war with Earth Dragons. Then she forges the Shield and Seals and another Falchion, and then around 200 years later, she goes to Jugdral to fight Loptyr and forged a tome with her power. 

After that was done, several years later, Naga finally dies, which the age is said to be 5000. Now taking that, its possible that Naga crippled her power and life force through forging those weapons and also the war gave her a lot of damage. In which case, Naga's power by the time of Jugdral to forge the tome that contained her power, was only holding not even the full extent of her power.

Also, yes, life force within a dragon does actually play a part in their power. Hell, Medeus wasn't even killed the first two times he was beaten, by Anri and then Marth respectively. Medeus merely went to sleep, because the life force of Earth Dragons is vast.

In which case, Naga against Loptyr was at best equals when Naga was crippled. 

[Emperor Hardin]

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, it weakens your argument that Divine Dragons are purely "light" based, because those are Divine Dragon Treasures that possess Light, Life, Dark, Star, and Earth based spheres, two parts are elements you claim Divine Dragon shouldn't have. Now that Dark and Earth are potential elements that Divine Dragons could manipulate, that more works in Duma's favor of being Divine Dragon, but possessing said "dark" and "earth" powers. 

No. Medeus never sided with humans. Medeus simply agreed to take manakete form, but by no means was it ever stated that he ever liked or sided with humans. He just wasn't so blinded by pride to see that taking manakete form was his only chance to avoid degenerating. 

Let's actually delve deeper into that. Why did Naga die at only age 5000 (possibly hinted of age), yet its very likely that all dragons in general can live absurdly long time. Bantu looks like an old man by Marth's time, but is still alive by Awakening, 2000 years later. Now, if we look at the events, particularly with the new info Echoes gives, Naga creates a Falchion a long time before the war with the Earth Dragons. Then from what we know, many years later goes through the war with Earth Dragons. Then she forges the Shield and Seals and another Falchion, and then around 200 years later, she goes to Jugdral to fight Loptyr and forged a tome with her power. 

After that was done, several years later, Naga finally dies, which the age is said to be 5000. Now taking that, its possible that Naga crippled her power and life force through forging those weapons and also the war gave her a lot of damage. In which case, Naga's power by the time of Jugdral to forge the tome that contained her power, was only holding not even the full extent of her power.

Also, yes, life force within a dragon does actually play a part in their power. Hell, Medeus wasn't even killed the first two times he was beaten, by Anri and then Marth respectively. Medeus merely went to sleep, because the life force of Earth Dragons is vast.

In which case, Naga against Loptyr was at best equals when Naga was crippled. 

There's zero evidence that the spheres are made of Dragon essences like the Naga tome. So again you have no proof.

You clearly are not familiar with the lore of Archanea if you forgot Medeus guarded the dragon's table for the sake of protecting humans for many years.

One of the translations says Naga used up the last of her life force sealing Tiki.

What does that have to do with anything.

There's no evidence of Naga being crippled, if anything she was at her peak at the time. Kaga's words and the illustration show her as Tiki's age during that period.

Again, you aren't familiar with the subject, so why are you arguing this?

Edited April 18, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

There's zero evidence that the spheres are made of Dragon essences like the Naga tome. So again you have no proof.

... Really? You claim that's not evidence at all? 

Look at all the evidence that we've seen with weapons and powers. Falchion, Shield of Seals, and the very Holy Weapons of Jugdral, are ALL made from dragon essence, and even confirmed that those Holy Weapons were from Dragonstones. That actually proves that the Gemstones are actually 5 highly powerful Dragonstones if anything. And given they are explicitly stated to be the treasures of the Divine Dragons, the origins belong to them.

4 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You clearly are not familiar with the lore of Archanea if you forgot Medeus guarded the dragon's table for the sake of protecting humans for many years.

Medeus merely guarded the table because Naga ordered him to. It was never said that he did it out of the good will of humans. Maybe he didn't hate humans, but guarding the seal never meant that he particularly liked humans. If anything, it could be that he was indifferent to them, and just grew to hate them. Maybe he even did it out of duty, which is a VERY plausible reason. But there are zero evidence to support that Medeus ever did it cause he cared for humans. 

 

11 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

One of the translations says Naga used up the last of her life force sealing Tiki.

That just supports my side, as Naga's life force and power was indeed that much crippled that it took all her life just to seal Tiki into sleep.

8 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

There's no evidence of Naga being crippled, if anything she was at her peak at the time. Kaga's words and the illustration show her as Tiki's age during that period.

Human/Manakete form, and in that form, it just shows that she's technically still at a young age. Life force crippled and power weakened ever so would not indicate completely that to her figure or age. 

9 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Again, you aren't familiar with the subject, so why are you arguing this?

For your information, I have watched all of Jugdral series and Valentia, and played the Archanea series. So yes, I am actually well aware of the lore. 

[Fëanen]

Just want to point a few things out:

Tiki's appearance and breath change drastically between Books 1 and 2 of Mystery. There's no apparent reason for this in the story  or the game, but since it took extra effort to program it must be intentional.

In Binding Blade (post-Kaga, to be fair) we learn that a Divine Dragon can be corrupted into a Demon Dragon, with a pretty drastic cosmetic change.

My conclusions from this are that Divine Dragons have always canonically had more versatile powers than just light, and also that Duma's one-eyed form may not reflect his original body. In the very game where a lot of FE's overarching tropes and lore were solidified we see a Divine Dragon go from a silver ice-breather to a fluffy mist-breather in the span of a few years. All while keeping Gharnef's FE1 line telling her to burn all intruders. Who knows what a degenerate Tiki would have looked like and been capable of?

I don't know if Duma and Mila being Divine Dragons was an unspoken part of Gaiden's original lore or a retcon, and unless Kaga improbably chimes in odds are we'll never know. But based on the evidence in Mystery and the post-Kaga FE series, I don't think it's a big stretch.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Fëanen

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Fëanen said:

My conclusions from this are that Divine Dragons have always canonically had more versatile powers than just light, and also that Duma's one-eyed form may not reflect his original body. In the very game where a lot of FE's overarching tropes and lore were solidified we see a Divine Dragon go from a silver ice-breather to a fluffy mist-breather in the span of a few years. All while keeping Gharnef's FE1 line admonishing her to burn all intruders. Who knows what a degenerate Tiki would have looked and acted like?

You actually bring up a great point. Supposing that Nowi is a Divine Dragon, her breath makes little sense. IN the comic, she breathes an ice breath. In the English Awakening, she says she breathes fire. In which case, what is her breath? 

[Emperor Hardin]

17 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

... Really? You claim that's not evidence at all? 

Look at all the evidence that we've seen with weapons and powers. Falchion, Shield of Seals, and the very Holy Weapons of Jugdral, are ALL made from dragon essence, and even confirmed that those Holy Weapons were from Dragonstones. That actually proves that the Gemstones are actually 5 highly powerful Dragonstones if anything. And given they are explicitly stated to be the treasures of the Divine Dragons, the origins belong to them.

Medeus merely guarded the table because Naga ordered him to. It was never said that he did it out of the good will of humans. Maybe he didn't hate humans, but guarding the seal never meant that he particularly liked humans. If anything, it could be that he was indifferent to them, and just grew to hate them. Maybe he even did it out of duty, which is a VERY plausible reason. But there are zero evidence to support that Medeus ever did it cause he cared for humans. 

 

That just supports my side, as Naga's life force and power was indeed that much crippled that it took all her life just to seal Tiki into sleep.

Human/Manakete form, and in that form, it just shows that she's technically still at a young age. Life force crippled and power weakened ever so would not indicate completely that to her figure or age. 

For your information, I have watched all of Jugdral series and Valentia, and played the Archanea series. So yes, I am actually well aware of the lore. 

You have no proof that Darksphere, Earthsphere, and others are made from Divine Dragon essence. The only one that seem relates to the Divine Dragons are the Starsphere and Lightsphere. Also they aren't stated to exclusively belong to Divine Dragons.

No Medeus guarded the table to safeguard humanity, if he hated humans he wouldn't have listed to Naga. That was Xane's wholepoint, Medeus felt betrayed as he tried to protect humans but they persecuted his fellow manaketes.

Its the other way around, there's zero evidence to say Medeus always hated humans. 

Naga was crippled from fighting many Earth Dragons and Loptyr, thus leading to an early death. Naga was at their prime before.

Being Young doesn't mean being weak, quite the opposite infact.

Well you are still getting many important details wrong. If Medeus hated humanity from the start, he wouldn't have spent so long guarding the table.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Fëanen]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

You actually bring up a great point. Supposing that Nowi is a Divine Dragon, her breath makes little sense. IN the comic, she breathes an ice breath. In the English Awakening, she says she breathes fire. In which case, what is her breath? 

That one I've wondered about (thought it may be a case of support writers and graphics designers doing different things). Of course, in that game Tiki looks like Nowi's type of dragon (presumably to avoid programming different models) and breaths what appear to be big hunks of ice too. My guess is that certain types of dragons can breath whatever the heck they want.

[Emperor Hardin]

1 minute ago, Fëanen said:

That one I've wondered about (thought it may be a case of support writers and graphics designers doing different things). Of course, in that game Tiki looks like Nowi's type of dragon (presumably to avoid programming different models) and breaths what appear to be big hunks of ice too. My guess is that certain types of dragons can breath whatever the heck they want.

Its possible Young Divine Dragons breath ice.

Tiki's book 1 sprites and abilties seems intended to capture her role in the original NES version. 

[omegaxis1]

4 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You have no proof that Darksphere, Earthsphere, and others are made from Divine Dragon essence. The only one that seem relates to the Divine Dragons are the Starsphere and Lightsphere. Also they aren't stated to exclusively belong to Divine Dragons.

Once again, they are explicitly stated to be the treasures of the Divine Dragons. If they were other dragons, they would rightfully belong to those tribes, but in the end, they are always said to always be the Divine Dragon's. Also, to further strengthen that they are dragon essence, the very fact they go into the Shield of Seals, that's forged from her own fang, and be able to be used for her power to seal beings away, means that the Gemstones share a power that matches say the wavelength of her Shield of Seals, which would go with the Divine Dragon origin. 

4 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

No Medeus guarded the table to safeguard humanity, if he hated humans he wouldn't have listed to Naga. That was Xane's wholepoint, Medeus felt betrayed as he tried to protect humans but they persecuted his fellow manaketes.

Its the other way around, there's zero evidence to say Medeus always hated humans. 

Well you are still getting many important details wrong. If Medeus hated humanity from the start, he wouldn't have spent so long guarding the table.

No, you're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying that he HATED humans. I'm saying that he didn't have to simply LIKE them. He could have done it out of a sense of purpose or duty. And maybe given that he's the Earth Dragon Prince, and the Earth Dragons lost, he's basically the loser, and thus obeys the victor, ie. Naga. But I'm not saying that he hated the humans, just that he grew into hating them. But he didn't have to like them to do his job. But once they began to do it, he saw no purpose in guarding the seal while watching the humans get away with their prejudice. 

7 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Being Young doesn't mean being weak, quite the opposite infact.

I didn't say that. I said that her appearing as a young woman to Heim even if she's crippled in power and life force would not mean that it would show in her appearance. She'd still look as a young woman, but not be as powerful as before. 

8 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Naga was crippled from fighting many Earth Dragons and Loptyr, thus leading to an early death. Naga was at their prime before.

You're forgetting the gap in time. Naga didn't face Loptyr until around 200 years AFTER the war with the Earth Dragons. Her powers could have long since crippled by then from the ravages and scars from such wars, and she weakened herself even more to defeat Loptyr. For all we know, that might be why she even made a tome to defeat Loptyr as opposed to just creating another Falchion. Unless of course, she only had 2 fangs to forge said weapons.

[Emperor Hardin]

12 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Once again, they are explicitly stated to be the treasures of the Divine Dragons. If they were other dragons, they would rightfully belong to those tribes, but in the end, they are always said to always be the Divine Dragon's. Also, to further strengthen that they are dragon essence, the very fact they go into the Shield of Seals, that's forged from her own fang, and be able to be used for her power to seal beings away, means that the Gemstones share a power that matches say the wavelength of her Shield of Seals, which would go with the Divine Dragon origin. 

No, you're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying that he HATED humans. I'm saying that he didn't have to simply LIKE them. He could have done it out of a sense of purpose or duty. And maybe given that he's the Earth Dragon Prince, and the Earth Dragons lost, he's basically the loser, and thus obeys the victor, ie. Naga. But I'm not saying that he hated the humans, just that he grew into hating them. But he didn't have to like them to do his job. But once they began to do it, he saw no purpose in guarding the seal while watching the humans get away with their prejudice. 

I didn't say that. I said that her appearing as a young woman to Heim even if she's crippled in power and life force would not mean that it would show in her appearance. She'd still look as a young woman, but not be as powerful as before. 

You're forgetting the gap in time. Naga didn't face Loptyr until around 200 years AFTER the war with the Earth Dragons. Her powers could have long since crippled by then from the ravages and scars from such wars, and she weakened herself even more to defeat Loptyr. For all we know, that might be why she even made a tome to defeat Loptyr as opposed to just creating another Falchion. Unless of course, she only had 2 fangs to forge said weapons.

Source where its stated they specifically belonged to Divine Dragons, all Xane says is they're passed around by the Divine Dragons, not they specifically belonged to their tribe alone. Keep in mind, Naga did have a leadership position, so if others helped create, it'd still go to the Divine Dragons. Remember during the days when the Dragons were one Kingdom, the Divine Dragons were the highest caste. Again, no evidence for all the spheres being made of Divine Dragon essence.  Medeus guarding the altar immplies keeping the degenerated Dragons sealed was something Naga expected all Manaketes to take part in.

He wasn't the loser, Medeus was powerful and could've done whatever he wanted. HIs dialogue in book 2 and its remake also indicates he has a certain measure of control over the degenerated dragons, again as mentioned he was guarding the table to protect humanity. He saw no purpose in guarding the seal because he felt humanity betrayed him, that was Xane's whole point.

I'm sure it'd mentioned she looked sickly or weak if she was as crippled as you claim, also this was long before Tiki was sealed, giving less reason for Naga to be crippled.

If anything 200 years of of recovery time, would mean Naga was more prepared to fight Loptyr particularly if she was still young. So the claim she was crippled is quite far out.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

9 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Source where its stated they specifically belonged to Divine Dragons. Keep in mind, Naga did have a leadership position, so if others helped create, it'd still go to the Divine Dragons. Again, no evidence for all the spheres being made of Divine Dragon essence. 

Either Xane or Gotoh in New Mystery stated that the five orbs were formed to create the Shield of Seals to hold the seal. Also, one issue with what you said. Earth Dragons were either dead or sealed. Medeus was the only one, and given how the power of the orbs are, its unlikely one can forge it so easily, so its unlikely that Medeus forged it, meaning that neither of those orbs could have been made by them. 

11 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

He wasn't the loser, Medeus was powerful and could've done whatever he wanted. HIs dialogue in book 2 and its remake also indicates he has a certain measure of control over the degenerated dragons, again as mentioned he was guarding the table to protect humanity. He saw no purpose in guarding the seal because he felt humanity betrayed him, that was Xane's whole point.

The Earth Dragons did LOSE though. And as the Prince, he still is the loser of the war. However, I'm not going completely into that side, but rather on how Medeus was safeguarding the seal to protect humanity only out of sense of duty. Medeus probably didn't even have a real impression on humans. Its stated that humans were not even a flourished race, and its only after the war that the humans really began to expand. And being the prince, its unlikely Medeus would ever meet the humans. 

So serving out of purpose would make sense, and its only during the time he guarded the seal did he get his impression of humans, seeing only the ugly side of humans, and thus grew to hate them. 

15 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I'm sure it'd mentioned she was sickly, also this was long before Tiki was sealed, giving less reason for Naga to be crippled.

If anything 200 years of of recovery time, would mean Naga was more prepared to fight Loptyr particularly if she was still young. So the claim she was crippled is quite far out.

Not in dragon years. Given the intensity of the war led to the eventual extinction of the Divine Dragons, there's no way the war did not take its toll on her a great deal. 200 years wouldn't have been enough to recover from it. Given how they didn't mention Jugdral, its unlikely they mentioned that she was sickly. In fact, she might not have ever appeared or expressed any sickness, but it doesn't mean she wasn't. Creating two god slaying weapons, a powerful shield that can seal away any being, and a tome that held her power, all that came from her power. All of that would greatly take its toll on her more and more. 

[Emperor Hardin]

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Either Xane or Gotoh in New Mystery stated that the five orbs were formed to create the Shield of Seals to hold the seal. Also, one issue with what you said. Earth Dragons were either dead or sealed. Medeus was the only one, and given how the power of the orbs are, its unlikely one can forge it so easily, so its unlikely that Medeus forged it, meaning that neither of those orbs could have been made by them. 

The Earth Dragons did LOSE though. And as the Prince, he still is the loser of the war. However, I'm not going completely into that side, but rather on how Medeus was safeguarding the seal to protect humanity only out of sense of duty. Medeus probably didn't even have a real impression on humans. Its stated that humans were not even a flourished race, and its only after the war that the humans really began to expand. And being the prince, its unlikely Medeus would ever meet the humans. 

So serving out of purpose would make sense, and its only during the time he guarded the seal did he get his impression of humans, seeing only the ugly side of humans, and thus grew to hate them. 

Not in dragon years. Given the intensity of the war led to the eventual extinction of the Divine Dragons, there's no way the war did not take its toll on her a great deal. 200 years wouldn't have been enough to recover from it. Given how they didn't mention Jugdral, its unlikely they mentioned that she was sickly. In fact, she might not have ever appeared or expressed any sickness, but it doesn't mean she wasn't. Creating two god slaying weapons, a powerful shield that can seal away any being, and a tome that held her power, all that came from her power. All of that would greatly take its toll on her more and more. 

The base was from Naga, the origin of the spheres is unmentioned. You were saying earlier the orbs were made of the essence of individual Divine Dragons, now you're saying Medeus couldn't make him one because he's not an individual? Its also possible the spheres were made from sealing spirits or magic rather then Dragon essences.

Everything indicates Medeus was on the side of the Dragons who didn't degenerate. Xane says he was guarding the table to protect humans and felt betrayed when they persecuted Manaketes. If he didn't care for humans to begin with, why would he feel betrayed?

Medeus was selflessly helping humans before by protecting them from his former subjects, so he was on their side initially. That was the whole point.

200 years would be like a couple months, its unlikely Naga would be so tired after having a couple months of rest, particularly during youth when wounds recover fast. Naga didn't create godslaying weapons, but Dragonslaying weapons. I'm sure Kaga would've mentioned it if he intended Naga to be weak, instead nothing at all indicates it. 

And why are you arguing so vehemently for Naga being crippled during the Miracle of Darna?

Edited April 18, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

10 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The base was from Naga, the origin of the spheres is unmentioned. You were saying earlier the orbs were made of the essence of individual Divine Dragons, now you're saying Medeus couldn't make him one because he's not an individual?

No, I'm saying the power to forge that is too great that one won't be able to have that much power afterwards, to the point it could take a dragon's entire life to seal into. Medeus can't because we know he was at full power from the beginning. 

10 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Everything indicates Medeus was on the side of the Dragons who didn't degenerate. Xane says he was guarding the table to protect humans and felt betrayed when they persecuted Manaketes. If he didn't care for humans to begin with, why would he feel betrayed?

Medeus was selflessly helping humans before by protecting them from his former subjects, so he was on their side initially. That was the whole point.

Think about this: Naga and the Divine Dragons liked humans so much that they waged an entire war to protect them. If anything, Medeus would have held the expectation that humans are worth it. That didn't end up being the case, sadly, and it hurt a lot, that Medeus hated humans all the more. 

10 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

200 years would be like a couple months, its unlikely Naga would be so tired after having a couple months of rest, particularly during youth when wounds recover fast. Naga didn't create godslaying weapons, but Dragonslaying weapons. I'm sure Kaga would've mentioned it if he intended Naga to be weak, instead nothing at all indicates it. 

And why are you arguing so vehemently for Naga being crippled during the Miracle of Darna?

... Are you seriously saying that a ravaging war that killed many dragons, and as you say, led the Divine Dragon clan to near extinction, could be simply be recovered so easily? Also, keep in mind again that dragons normally don't die so easily because of their outrageously large lifespans. The very fact that the Divine Dragons died means the damage was THAT severe. So if anything, the battle DID likely scar Naga.

Was Kaga ever asked why Naga died at age 5000? Or if Naga was sick? If asked that kind of question, I'm assuming (not saying he would) he would say something similar to what I'm saying. 

As for why I'm continuing the argument... I forget. XD

Sorry, I get into debates so often that I tend to forget the original point. 

Edited April 18, 2017 by omegaxis1

[Emperor Hardin]

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, I'm saying the power to forge that is too great that one won't be able to have that much power afterwards, to the point it could take a dragon's entire life to seal into. Medeus can't because we know he was at full power from the beginning. 

Think about this: Naga and the Divine Dragons liked humans so much that they waged an entire war to protect them. If anything, Medeus would have held the expectation that humans are worth it. That didn't end up being the case, sadly, and it hurt a lot, that Medeus hated humans all the more. 

... Are you seriously saying that a ravaging war that killed many dragons, and as you say, led the Divine Dragon clan to near extinction, could be simply be recovered so easily? Also, keep in mind again that dragons normally don't die so easily because of their outrageously large lifespans. The very fact that the Divine Dragons died means the damage was THAT severe. So if anything, the battle DID likely scar Naga.

Was Kaga ever asked why Naga died at age 5000? Or if Naga was sick? If asked that kind of question, I'm assuming (not saying he would) he would say something similar to what I'm saying. 

As for why I'm continuing the argument... I forget. XD

Sorry, I get into debates so often that I tend to forget the original point. 

There's no evidence that creating weapons from their essence takes a toll on a dragon's power. Fans have theorized this, but its never been stated.

Thats my point, Medeus did do all he could to help humans in the past, so him creating weapons in the past for them isn't far out.

A young and fit individual like Naga could recover from their personal wounds given that time. I never said the entire tribe recovered, just Naga did based on all evidence.

He has not been asked about Naga's death, however the Mystery transaltion does say Naga used up the remaining 5000 years of their life to seal Tiki. "thus ending the remaining 5000 years of his life" was Xane's words in the original translation, while he says in the remake translation "She put the newly born Tiki to sleep and thus ended her 5,000-year life.". Its likely the battle with Loptyr took alot out of Naga.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Emperor Hardin said:

There's no evidence that creating weapons from their essence takes a toll on a dragon's power. Fans have theorized this, but its never been stated.

Thats my point, Medeus did do all he could to help humans in the past, so him creating weapons in the past for them isn't far out.

While normally this would be where I admit that makes so much sense and I concede, unfortunately, Medeus never made a single mention or association with the orbs, and in fact didn't realize the power of the Shield of Seals until he was killed for the final time by Marth, given by his death quote. So its still unlikely that he had anything to do with the orbs.

2 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

n young and fit individual like Naga could recover from their wounds given that time. I never said the entire tribe recovered, just Naga did based on all evidence.

He has not been asked about Naga's death, however the Mystery transaltion does say Naga used up the remaining 5000 years of their life to seal Tiki. "thus ending the remaining 5000 years of his life" was Xane's words in the original translation, while he says in the remake translation "She put the newly born Tiki to sleep and thus ended her 5,000-year life.". Its likely the battle with Loptyr took alot out of Naga.

A pretty interesting point. However, war is not something that can be easily recovered from. Even for Naga, its doubtful. Its very likely that the war with the Earth Dragons did take a severe toll on her.

Furthermore, in the case of Loptyr, she didn't actually directly face Loptyr in battle. In fact, her only involvement was forging the tome using her power through a blood pact. Beyond that, she didn't personally get involved, so really, she just suffered more power loss from forging that tome, though I'm willing to bet that forging the tome holding her power was not as great as forging Falchion were. 

5000 years life force expended just to put an infant dragon to sleep? I sort of find that hard to believe. 

[Emperor Hardin]

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

While normally this would be where I admit that makes so much sense and I concede, unfortunately, Medeus never made a single mention or association with the orbs, and in fact didn't realize the power of the Shield of Seals until he was killed for the final time by Marth, given by his death quote. So its still unlikely that he had anything to do with the orbs.

A pretty interesting point. However, war is not something that can be easily recovered from. Even for Naga, its doubtful. Its very likely that the war with the Earth Dragons did take a severe toll on her.

Furthermore, in the case of Loptyr, she didn't actually directly face Loptyr in battle. In fact, her only involvement was forging the tome using her power through a blood pact. Beyond that, she didn't personally get involved, so really, she just suffered more power loss from forging that tome, though I'm willing to bet that forging the tome holding her power was not as great as forging Falchion were. 

5000 years life force expended just to put an infant dragon to sleep? I sort of find that hard to believe. 

Actually he was quite aware of the Binding Shield, he was just surprised to be defeated at his full power. Remember he was part of the security set by Naga.

Proof please that the battle made her much weaker, especially when all info on the Miracle Of Darna indicates otherwise. Do you believe Tiki was weakened after the War of Shadows or War of Heroes?

The essences of the two dragons battled eachother. Just as Loptyr possessed a human host, Naga did so too for their battle. If anything its indicated the Naga tome is stronger then the Falchion, its distinctly more powerful then Tyrfing which is implied to be a Dragon fang turned sword.

Keep in mind, Tiki was extremely powerful.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Actually he was quite aware of the Binding Shield, he was just surprised to be defeated at his full power. Remember he was part of the security set by Naga.

Except the Shield of Seals was never in the Dragon's Table. It was in the Fane of Raman. If Medeus was in the Dragon's Table as the guard, that means he never had the chance to ever to be part of the shield. He could have been aware of it, but he never knew the power it wielded at full strength. But even so, he never seemed to show indication of association with the orbs, which he logically should if he forged 1-2 of them.

Speaking of the Shield of Seals, I actually have a separate thing about why its ridiculously OP storywise, but that's a different topic altogether, and has nothing to do with this.

5 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Proof please that the battle made her much weaker, especially when all info on the Miracle Of Darna indicates otherwise. Do you believe Tiki was weakened after the War of Shadows or War of Heroes?

I can't give proof on this one, but its simple logic. If this war killed (not put to sleep) many Divine Dragons and many Earth Dragons, Divine Dragons moreso, it means the damage was so great that it took chunks out of their lifespan. So logically, Naga had to have sustained the scars of the war. Also, Tiki didn't fight a full on dragon war. Most of her enemies were humans, and there wasn't a full army of dragons, especially Earth Dragons, to fight her, so she was more likely safe from critical injury. Actually, in the non-canon side quest, Tiki was beaten in battle and merely showed that she didn't die, but returned to slumber. 

8 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The essences of the two dragons battled eachother. Just as Loptyr possessed a human host, Naga did so too for their battle. If anything its indicated the Naga tome is stronger then the Falchion.

The tomes contained their will, with Loptyr's actually far deeper given that he no longer had a physical form, but Naga still had her physical form, so while the tome held her will, she didn't possess people like Loptyr and Forseti did, because she didn't want to involve herself so deeply with humans. So it wouldn't really affect her physical form beyond the forging of the tome.

I'm still on the case that Falchion is overall stronger, particularly that Naga's tome over the time does lose its power, whereas Falchion never does lose its power, and would at best be sealed. 

[Emperor Hardin]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

Except the Shield of Seals was never in the Dragon's Table. It was in the Fane of Raman. If Medeus was in the Dragon's Table as the guard, that means he never had the chance to ever to be part of the shield. He could have been aware of it, but he never knew the power it wielded at full strength. But even so, he never seemed to show indication of association with the orbs, which he logically should if he forged 1-2 of them.

Speaking of the Shield of Seals, I actually have a separate thing about why its ridiculously OP storywise, but that's a different topic altogether, and has nothing to do with this.

I can't give proof on this one, but its simple logic. If this war killed (not put to sleep) many Divine Dragons and many Earth Dragons, Divine Dragons moreso, it means the damage was so great that it took chunks out of their lifespan. So logically, Naga had to have sustained the scars of the war. Also, Tiki didn't fight a full on dragon war. Most of her enemies were humans, and there wasn't a full army of dragons, especially Earth Dragons, to fight her, so she was more likely safe from critical injury. Actually, in the non-canon side quest, Tiki was beaten in battle and merely showed that she didn't die, but returned to slumber. 

The tomes contained their will, with Loptyr's actually far deeper given that he no longer had a physical form, but Naga still had her physical form, so while the tome held her will, she didn't possess people like Loptyr and Forseti did, because she didn't want to involve herself so deeply with humans. So it wouldn't really affect her physical form beyond the forging of the tome.

I'm still on the case that Falchion is overall stronger, particularly that Naga's tome over the time does lose its power, whereas Falchion never does lose its power, and would at best be sealed. 

It was at the fane of Raman, but Medeus was the backup protection in case of the Shield was lost, as such he should know alot about the shield given it was directly related to his job of safeguarding humanity. There's no indication, he didn't know about the orbs, infact he mentioned wlll likely humanity break it apart again, showing he did know about the spheres.

Again, thats speculation, everything indicates Naga was young and healthy at the miracle of Darna. I don't get why you're arguing Naga was crippled?

Tiki fought loads of Dragons, both Manaketes and degenerated Dragons(including Earth during 2 maps), then Medeus, even at his full power as a Shadow Dragon.

It did possess people according to Kaga, he uses will to describe Forsetti and Lotpyr's tomes effects as well. 

Naga's tome only loses power in Awakening, presumably, where Falchion has also losts its power. Now if you're making a case for Naga being crippled in Awakening, then you'd have a case. The artbook also suggests it could be be a different Naga.

[omegaxis1]

7 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

It was at the fane of Raman, but Medeus was the backup protection in case of the Shield was lost, as such he should know alot about the shield given it was directly related to his job of safeguarding humanity. There's no indication, he didn't know about the orbs, infact he mentioned wlll likely humanity break it apart again, showing he did know about the spheres.

Given how he was guarding the seal, he likely sensed or noticed that the seal was weakening when Adrah stole the Shield and broke the orbs off, and Medeus likely would notice the seal weakening since he guarded it. I don't doubt him having knowledge of the orbs and the Shield. I do have doubts on him forging the spheres used there. 

9 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Again, thats speculation, everything indicates Naga was young and healthy at the miracle of Darna. I don't get why you're arguing Naga was crippled?

Tiki fought loads of Dragons, both Manaketes and degenerated Dragons(including Earth during 2 maps), then Medeus, even at his full power as a Shadow Dragon.

First off, I don't know. I forgot why we were discussing this. XP

Also, I dunno how you can say that she was perfectly healthy. Young I already mentioned why, but healthy was never stated to be the case. That's just a natural assumption anyone would make. We have 1 illustration, and Forseti mentioning the form she took. 

Second, yes, she fought, or might have, fought several dragons, but we're not talking huge armies that the Earth Dragon War here. We're talking about the Ice, Fire, and Mage dragons mostly, all of which are weaker to the Divine Dragons, and they aren't huge armies of them, but rather more minority given what we've seen. Also, Naga wanted to kill Tiki because she feared Tiki's power, indicating that Tiki is potentially STRONGER than Naga, and if she degenerated, the human race was finished. That means that Tiki would have made short work of those weaker dragons. 

14 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

It did possess people according to Kaga, he uses will to describe Forsetti and Lotpyr's tomes effects as well. 

More or less. However, there's a difference. The interview confirmed that unlike other weapons, Loptyr, Forseti, and Naga's tomes had their wills infused into it, and the carriers would take that will into them. However, since both Naga and Forseti still had a physical body, they would not be fully controlling the person, whereas Loptyr would cause he's got no body. But the point here is that Naga's physical body played no role here beyond forging the tome. 

16 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Naga's tome only loses power in Awakening, presumably, where Falchion has also losts its power. Now if you're making a case for Naga being crippled in Awakening, then you'd have a case. The artbook also suggests it could be be a different Naga.

Actually, here's the thing. By the time of Awakening, 2000 years passed after Shadow Dragon. However, everything takes place 1000 years in between. Falchion likely unleashed more of its power when it was merged with the power of the Shield of Seals to unlock the Exalted Falchion, so it contained all of Naga's power. Also, Naga in that verse could be different, but its possible that Naga is actually Nagi, who's taking a role as Naga. And Tiki taking the role of Naga in Future Past indicates that the power of Naga is equal, if not even greater, than the original Naga, as Tiki's power is already commended to rival/surpass Naga's.

Also, at that point, Naga doesn't seem to even have a physical form, but takes a more spiritual form. 

Since the Holy Weapons were just meant to take care of Loptyr, Naga likely made the tome purposely a temporary thing, as it would weaken the will of her in it, which would make sense, cause she didn't want to possess humans by her will or humans to take her will into themselves. But the blade of Falchion is said to always be untouched by the ravages of time, and the power was likely sealed after the Exalted Falchion was unleashed when Grima first made a continental assault.