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Origins of Mila and Duma (unmarked Endgame spoilers)


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4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I cannot tell if you're serious or just messing with me.

I was trying to multiquote and more or less gave up sorry I was actually trying to edit but I couldn't post into the prior sorry ignore the mess

 

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

HUh, I thought for sure one moment there was a stem there. Weird. 

From that first picture it did look like it had a stem but that probably has to do with the blurriness. 

Success two comments in one post yes!!

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

HUh, I thought for sure one moment there was a stem there. Weird. 

It looks like it's just the reflection. A visual trick. I looked at the first image, and where the stem would be if it was an apple, there was what appeared to be a tiny glowing dot. But there was no stem. And the glowing dot is gone in the cutscene with Rudolf.

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3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

If you mean things like the Graveyard of the Fire Dragons and such where you go to Anri's Way, its still a point in the story where the army would have amassed enough power to fight the dragons. And what you said about how there can be more human plot and enemies, very unlikely. Remember that humans were just beginning to flourish and the land was still dominated by dragons. Then the Earth Dragons went mad and drove humans to near extinction. There's no way we can have a story based on the dragon war with a human lord, as in the end, its the Divine Dragons and Naga that fought in the war and ultimately sealed the Earth Dragons away. 

The Valkyrie Staff, Aum Staff, and such are powerful sacred objects of great power. Bringing the dead back to life IS actually a great feat, as those cases the player can only perform it like once. The Valkyrie Staff and Aum Staff can only be used once and then breaks. Storywise it shows it only works once as well. Mila's case is that she can perform it multiples when she was still alive. 

As for when she appeared, that was more her spirit arriving before she fully passed on I believe. Her spirit was binding Falchion so that it couldn't be used against her brother. Naga's case more or less indicates she no longer has a physical form anymore, but is alive.

Why? Why would a human hand in the conflict be impossible? Just flourishing is an extremely vague term and used in relation to a society that's described as "technologically advanced." It's like the parallel I provided already. The humans could have been on the tech level of someone like the Vandals and still be considered primitive. But not so primitive as to make a story impossible. At the very worst all it would mean is a slightly different aesthetic with less castles. You can still have people gathering together and forming armour with forged weapons like humans have been doing for eons.

The point is, reviving the dead is something that both Manaketes as well as Mila are seen doing. That means it cannot serve as evidence to suggest original dragons are significantly more powerful than Manaketes. And I don't recall any reference to Mila reviving anyone other than Celica. If she was casually reviving the dead at will during her rule then she could have revived Ludwig's other murdered children. Storywise nothing suggests that the Valkyrie staff can only be used once. The mere fact that it was used in the prior conflict and that they have enough information on how it works to know it can't revive people who died of natural causes is heavy evidence to the fact that it has been used multiple times (supported by the ability to use it multiple times in gameplay too).

Also very little suggests Naga is alive (or at least any more alive than Mila after getting Falchion through her brain). She's dead in the backstory of the first games and in order to reach the same sort of form Tiki had to suffer a mortal wound in the Future Past.

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6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Why? Why would a human hand in the conflict be impossible? Just flourishing is an extremely vague term and used in relation to a society that's described as "technologically advanced." It's like the parallel I provided already. The humans could have been on the tech level of someone like the Vandals and still be considered primitive. But not so primitive as to make a story impossible. At the very worst all it would mean is a slightly different aesthetic with less castles. You can still have people gathering together and forming armour with forged weapons like humans have been doing for eons.

For one thing, there would be zero humans that would know magic. No human in Archanea learned magic until after Gotoh established the city of magic. The game you are referring to would be humans that would only know how to use swords and physical weapons. How would you make a game when storywise there can be no mages available? Furthermore, the story even states that it was Naga herself that participated in the battle and defeated the Earth Dragons. In what way would a human be able to even get involved if they wouldn't even be able to fight the final boss in the end? This isn't like Awakening where Naga empowers a human, Naga is still alive and well for the moment in the time of the dragon war. Furthermore, the very reason that history is very inaccurate about Naga, Falchion, and the Shield of Seals, as history depicts of a male warrior god that held the Shield of Seals in one hand and Falchion in the other to defeat the monsters shows that humans never truly saw Naga being a female, that she made the Shield of Seals only AFTER the war as Xane, a participant of the war explained, and so on. If humans had ANY form of participation in the war, they'd have met Naga and would have been able to mark history of her heroism. 

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

The point is, reviving the dead is something that both Manaketes as well as Mila are seen doing. That means it cannot serve as evidence to suggest original dragons are significantly more powerful than Manaketes. And I don't recall any reference to Mila reviving anyone other than Celica. If she was casually reviving the dead at will during her rule then she could have revived Ludwig's other murdered children. Storywise nothing suggests that the Valkyrie staff can only be used once. The mere fact that it was used in the prior conflict and that they have enough information on how it works to know it can't revive people who died of natural causes is heavy evidence to the fact that it has been used multiple times (supported by the ability to use it multiple times in gameplay too).

Two special staves and 1 dragon and you call that something easy? Pretty sure that doesn't prove anything regarding the case of it being a common power, as even Naga couldn't revive the dead and even Anankos though from Fates, is a powerful being and he couldn't truly revive the dead beyond making them an animated corpse. Furthermore, wasn't Mila taken just before Desaix murdered the other children? As Rigel was actually going to war with Zofia or the likes? The first point was to take Mila, right? Furthermore, it was explained in that one time when Celica was being recruited in Awakening's DLC and she talked baout how Mila can revive the dead, she mentioned that even she had limitations.

The Valkyrie Staff mentioned something about quintessence and about fate, but there is still lot of details missing. 

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Also very little suggests Naga is alive (or at least any more alive than Mila after getting Falchion through her brain). She's dead in the backstory of the first games and in order to reach the same sort of form Tiki had to suffer a mortal wound in the Future Past.

Oh no, Naga DID die originally. The Naga in Awakening is likely Nagi, Naga's reincarnation. 

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I don't see why degenerated dragons wouldn't be able to reproduce. The game doesn't say they went completely infertile. It could easily be something like the Krogan from Mass Effect where the Genophage made births extremely rare due to stillbirths and the Krogan lifestyle severely compounded this problem. Even in Mass Effect, the characters repeatedly say that Krogan females are infertile even though that's not entirely accurate (and some characters will sometimes point this out when others say females are infertile).

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3 minutes ago, RJWalker said:

I don't see why degenerated dragons wouldn't be able to reproduce. The game doesn't say they went completely infertile. It could easily be something like the Krogan from Mass Effect where the Genophage made births extremely rare due to stillbirths and the Krogan lifestyle severely compounded this problem. Even in Mass Effect, the characters repeatedly say that Krogan females are infertile even though that's not entirely accurate (and some characters will sometimes point this out when others say females are infertile).

Also, original Mystery has Xane say the dragons couldn't give birth but the same dialogue in New Mystery omits this piece of information. Just something to consider.

The inability to reproduce was something that was the first thing mentioned. New Mystery didn't omit it, though. He said:
 

Quote

At first, they couldn't bear children.

 Before Nowi arrived and threw the entire infertility case out of bounds, no dragons could reproduce anymore, but Naga had managed to conceive one child, that being Tiki, but in her case, Naga never did or never succumbed to degeneration. 

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Yes, I read the wrong dialogue, but still, it doesn't have to mean they were completely infertile. Even the wording suggests that they couldn't give birth, not they couldn't concieve. So obviously, carrying the child to term was the problem. It could also be that once dragons degenerated completely, the could reproduce normally again since the degeneration is magical in nature and could work in mysterious ways. The wyverns riden by dracoknights are clearly supposed to be the same species as the Wyvern Tribe, but degenerated.

Then again, we don't exactly need wyverns to have the ability to reproduce. Wyverns reproducing is not brought up until Awakening and we all know how clumsy Awakening is with lore. The wyverns in Macedon and the ones in Jugdral could simply so numerous that finding mounts for their dracoknights wouldn't be much of a problem, especially combined with a dragon's long life.

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16 minutes ago, RJWalker said:

Yes, I read the wrong dialogue, but still, it doesn't have to mean they were completely infertile. Even the wording suggests that they couldn't give birth, not they couldn't concieve. So obviously, carrying the child to term was the problem. It could also be that once dragons degenerated completely, the could reproduce normally again since the degeneration is magical in nature and could work in mysterious ways. The wyverns riden by dracoknights are clearly supposed to be the same species as the Wyvern Tribe, but degenerated.

Then again, we don't exactly need wyverns to have the ability to reproduce. Wyverns reproducing is not brought up until Awakening and we all know how clumsy Awakening is with lore. The wyverns in Macedon and the ones in Jugdral could simply so numerous that finding mounts for their dracoknights wouldn't be much of a problem, especially combined with a dragon's long life.

By Awakening's time, one can consider that degeneration has weakened. Remember that Tiki was supposed to have the Shield of Seals be complete because otherwise it could make her degenerate. But by the First Exalt's time, the Shield of Seals was willingly broken apart of its Gemstones, meaning that Tiki no longer needs it as she's become mature enough or the degeneration isn't as powerful, but it does still exist, as Nowi and Nah expressed mentions of the desire to run wild. 

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

For one thing, there would be zero humans that would know magic. No human in Archanea learned magic until after Gotoh established the city of magic. The game you are referring to would be humans that would only know how to use swords and physical weapons. How would you make a game when storywise there can be no mages available? Furthermore, the story even states that it was Naga herself that participated in the battle and defeated the Earth Dragons. In what way would a human be able to even get involved if they wouldn't even be able to fight the final boss in the end? This isn't like Awakening where Naga empowers a human, Naga is still alive and well for the moment in the time of the dragon war. Furthermore, the very reason that history is very inaccurate about Naga, Falchion, and the Shield of Seals, as history depicts of a male warrior god that held the Shield of Seals in one hand and Falchion in the other to defeat the monsters shows that humans never truly saw Naga being a female, that she made the Shield of Seals only AFTER the war as Xane, a participant of the war explained, and so on. If humans had ANY form of participation in the war, they'd have met Naga and would have been able to mark history of her heroism. 

Two special staves and 1 dragon and you call that something easy? Pretty sure that doesn't prove anything regarding the case of it being a common power, as even Naga couldn't revive the dead and even Anankos though from Fates, is a powerful being and he couldn't truly revive the dead beyond making them an animated corpse. Furthermore, wasn't Mila taken just before Desaix murdered the other children? As Rigel was actually going to war with Zofia or the likes? The first point was to take Mila, right? Furthermore, it was explained in that one time when Celica was being recruited in Awakening's DLC and she talked baout how Mila can revive the dead, she mentioned that even she had limitations.

The Valkyrie Staff mentioned something about quintessence and about fate, but there is still lot of details missing. 

Oh no, Naga DID die originally. The Naga in Awakening is likely Nagi, Naga's reincarnation. 

Gotoh gave humans the knowledge of tomes and staves. They could have been using magic freely like in Valentia, sacrificing their HP to use it. And Naga can participate in the battle just like Nagi and Gotoh participate in the battle against Medeus. Or it doesn't even have to be about the Earth Dragon conflict and could be something focused specifically on the degeneration, what it is and where it came from. The war with the Earth Dragons does happen hundreds of years after the degeneration starts. And we don't even know if Naga was female back then. If you're going with Naga in Awakening is Nagi then the Naga that preceeded Nagi could just as easily have been male. Or you know myths could actually be disotred over time, something that happens quite a lot. Even in Archanea lore the guy that founded the kingdom was depicted as someone righteous who formed a holy kingdom when in reality he was a thief that got lucky pillaging the Fane of Raman.

Regarding reviving the dead, I'm going to quote myself on that.

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

The point is, reviving the dead is something that both Manaketes as well as Mila are seen doing. That means it cannot serve as evidence to suggest original dragons are significantly more powerful than Manaketes.

How difficult it is or isn't is irrelevant. The fact that both Manaketes and Dragons can do it means it's not evidence that Dragons are stronger than Manaketes. And no, Desaix killed the children a long time before Mila was sealed since Mycen got the blame for it and was exiled. Since Alm has no knowledge of ever being outside of Ram it must have been either before Rudolf entrusted him into Mycen's care or before Alm could start forming likewise. Additionally in the Memory Prism where Desaix orders Slayde to kill Conrad and preprologue Celica Slayde directly asks Desaix if he killed Ludwig's other children. Which means at the very least it's a good half dozen years before Mila is sealed. Even taking Celica's comment in Awakening in canon, it doesn't mean Mila can just revive the dead at will whenever she wants with no limit and no cost (it's probably meant to be a reference to the lion head shrines which are limited in how many dead they can revive). Which just brings it right back to it's something she can do, and also something Manaketes can do.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Gotoh gave humans the knowledge of tomes and staves. They could have been using magic freely like in Valentia, sacrificing their HP to use it. And Naga can participate in the battle just like Nagi and Gotoh participate in the battle against Medeus. Or it doesn't even have to be about the Earth Dragon conflict and could be something focused specifically on the degeneration, what it is and where it came from. The war with the Earth Dragons does happen hundreds of years after the degeneration starts. And we don't even know if Naga was female back then. If you're going with Naga in Awakening is Nagi then the Naga that preceeded Nagi could just as easily have been male. Or you know myths could actually be disotred over time, something that happens quite a lot. Even in Archanea lore the guy that founded the kingdom was depicted as someone righteous who formed a holy kingdom when in reality he was a thief that got lucky pillaging the Fane of Raman.

Regarding reviving the dead, I'm going to quote myself on that.

How difficult it is or isn't is irrelevant. The fact that both Manaketes and Dragons can do it means it's not evidence that Dragons are stronger than Manaketes. And no, Desaix killed the children a long time before Mila was sealed since Mycen got the blame for it and was exiled. Since Alm has no knowledge of ever being outside of Ram it must have been either before Rudolf entrusted him into Mycen's care or before Alm could start forming likewise. Additionally in the Memory Prism where Desaix orders Slayde to kill Conrad and preprologue Celica Slayde directly asks Desaix if he killed Ludwig's other children. Which means at the very least it's a good half dozen years before Mila is sealed. Even taking Celica's comment in Awakening in canon, it doesn't mean Mila can just revive the dead at will whenever she wants with no limit and no cost (it's probably meant to be a reference to the lion head shrines which are limited in how many dead they can revive). Which just brings it right back to it's something she can do, and also something Manaketes can do.

Magic is said to be equivalent to technology and Archanea was very primitive. Any form of magic they would have would be very small, and would hardly be usable in combat. It isn't like Valentia where they have access to powerful magic later on, as that happens thousands of years after the dragon war, so progress had to have been bound to be made. But dragons were the ones that taught the humans how to truly utilize the magical powers. The degeneration is what led the dragons to drive humans to extinction ad the bringing of the dragon war. That would be the central conflict of the story of the degeneration, so we can't not involve it.

Echoes has now pretty much confirmed Naga in the past to now be a female. Also, for the case of Adrah, that's because he's the one that made the history and founded the kingdom. No one else would have truly known the story except Gotoh, so its not a case of history deteriorating, but rather history being written wrong in the first place. But if humans had any involvement of in the war, then its less likely to deteriorate in such a manner. Also, the fact that Gotoh and Xane made no mention of any humans in the war beyond saying "Humans were driven to extinction. Naga brought the dragons to fight, etc." then that pretty much confirms that no humans had any form of involvement in the war beyond being the victims. 

Rather than argue about the case of power limitations and such, I wanna bring something else. In the Memory Prism with Duma and Mila, they were in human form after their exile and were talking about Valentia's case and their personal ideals. However, this seemed to occur thousands of years before Alm's time, as this occurred after Duma and Mila were exiled and the tales speak of their war as something that happened several thousands years ago, meaning even before the degeneration became known, they could assume human form. So that would further indicate that they aren't Manaketes. 

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17 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Magic is said to be equivalent to technology and Archanea was very primitive. Any form of magic they would have would be very small, and would hardly be usable in combat. It isn't like Valentia where they have access to powerful magic later on, as that happens thousands of years after the dragon war, so progress had to have been bound to be made. But dragons were the ones that taught the humans how to truly utilize the magical powers. The degeneration is what led the dragons to drive humans to extinction ad the bringing of the dragon war. That would be the central conflict of the story of the degeneration, so we can't not involve it.

Echoes has now pretty much confirmed Naga in the past to now be a female. Also, for the case of Adrah, that's because he's the one that made the history and founded the kingdom. No one else would have truly known the story except Gotoh, so its not a case of history deteriorating, but rather history being written wrong in the first place. But if humans had any involvement of in the war, then its less likely to deteriorate in such a manner. Also, the fact that Gotoh and Xane made no mention of any humans in the war beyond saying "Humans were driven to extinction. Naga brought the dragons to fight, etc." then that pretty much confirms that no humans had any form of involvement in the war beyond being the victims. 

Rather than argue about the case of power limitations and such, I wanna bring something else. In the Memory Prism with Duma and Mila, they were in human form after their exile and were talking about Valentia's case and their personal ideals. However, this seemed to occur thousands of years before Alm's time, as this occurred after Duma and Mila were exiled and the tales speak of their war as something that happened several thousands years ago, meaning even before the degeneration became known, they could assume human form. So that would further indicate that they aren't Manaketes. 

That's pure speculation. You cannot say in anyway what the state of magic was or wasn't in ancient times. Especially if there's an extinction event in between. We have one word to go on, primitive, and it's a word being used in comparison to dragons that have all these amazing powers like reviving the dead. It can mean anything IS wants it to mean. Hell they could have even been using tomes and lost the art only to have Gotoh reintroduce it. The whole reason that I say its a good area for a plot is precisely because every scrap of information we have about it is vague and limited due to it being so far in the past. Things like Naga being depicted as a man could actually be explained or it could be completely retconned since it wasn't even included in the remake.

You seem to be forgetting what we were even arguing about in regards to Mila's power to revive the dead. I never once suggested that Mila and Duma are manaketes. In fact I conceded the point that they were probably taking human forms without being manaketes as soon as you pointed it out. It makes sense of both why they're going mad and why they're going mad so much later than all the other dragons. What I was arguing is that they're not inherently more powerful as dragons than they would be as manaketes.

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I just want to point out that Thabes exist and the Tower of Thabes is Naga's final resting place. The people living in Thabes were said to be a very advanced civilization and they were likely humans, if those stone tablets in Thabes Labyrinth are any indication. We don't know when Thabes fell to ruin but at a guess, it was likely still flourishing when Naga died, which means the Thabes civilization is probably the most ancient human civilization, because Naga died 5000 years prior to Shadow Dragon. And even if Forenus got the Divine Dragon blood from someone else instead of Naga, then that means that Divine Dragons were still around before, during, and maybe even after Forenus created Grima. So yes, a game CAN take place during the Golden Age of Dragons.

Assuming Grima was indeed created from Naga's blood, then that places Grima's age at around 7000 years old. If the Divine Dragon blood was aquired from someone else, then Grima might be even older than that.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's pure speculation. You cannot say in anyway what the state of magic was or wasn't in ancient times. Especially if there's an extinction event in between. We have one word to go on, primitive, and it's a word being used in comparison to dragons that have all these amazing powers like reviving the dead. It can mean anything IS wants it to mean. Hell they could have even been using tomes and lost the art only to have Gotoh reintroduce it. The whole reason that I say its a good area for a plot is precisely because every scrap of information we have about it is vague and limited due to it being so far in the past. Things like Naga being depicted as a man could actually be explained or it could be completely retconned since it wasn't even included in the remake.

You seem to be forgetting what we were even arguing about in regards to Mila's power to revive the dead. I never once suggested that Mila and Duma are manaketes. In fact I conceded the point that they were probably taking human forms without being manaketes as soon as you pointed it out. It makes sense of both why they're going mad and why they're going mad so much later than all the other dragons. What I was arguing is that they're not inherently more powerful as dragons than they would be as manaketes.

But like I said, its highly unlikely for humans to be really involved. Personally if you ask me, if we DO have a story about the degeneration, then we'd more or less be playing as one of the dragons becoming Manaketes, like Naga, and the case is the dragon war. Since they are in human form, we could go with how they fought with the Earth Dragons and such. But there are far too many complications, and the real meat of the story tends to be something that the writers never seem to expressly make a game out of, hence why we only get told stories of these things in the games, but never actually experience it ourselves. It's a common thing. 

Wait, so if we do agree in the end more or less, then this was pointless. XD

Sorry about that. ^^;

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

I just want to point out that Thabes exist and the Tower of Thabes is Naga's final resting place. The people living in Thabes were said to be a very advanced civilization and they were likely humans, if those stone tablets in Thabes Labyrinth are any indication. We don't know when Thabes fell to ruin but at a guess, it was likely still flourishing when Naga died, which means the Thabes civilization is probably the most ancient human civilization, because Naga died 5000 years prior to Shadow Dragon. And even if Forenus got the Divine Dragon blood from someone else instead of Naga, then that means that Divine Dragons were still around before, during, and maybe even after Forenus created Grima. So yes, a game CAN take place during the Golden Age of Dragons.

Assuming Grima was indeed created from Naga's blood, then that places Grima's age at around 7000 years old. If the Divine Dragon blood was aquired from someone else, then Grima might be even older than that.

Thabes was likely built and fell into ruin likely after the Dragon War. Since dragons completely dominated the continent and existed before humans, its unlikely for Thabes to have existed before humans founded it. Naga eventually died there, but I'm still not sure where the source of that info is from. Also, no she didn't. Naga didn't die 5000 years before Shadow Dragon. It's more 1000 years before Shadow Dragon. It's said that she died at the age of 5000. Grima is actually just a bit younger than Tiki (about 3000 years old in Awaknining) in fact. In a way, Grima is either some dark corrupted male clone of Naga or Tiki's little brother. XD

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Or Thabes was a city founded by dragons. They are the only ancient, advanced civilisation on Archanea we know of, which is the description of those who built Thabes. Forneus' workshop is sealed by a lesser version of the Shield of Seals and is guarded by a degenerated Fire Dragon, so dragons evidently had a hand in sealing his workshop, something explicitly done by the Council of Thabes. 

Plus, if Forneus was an Earth Dragon, adding his blood to the Creation explains Grima's Earth Dragon traits, like Dragonskin, and how Grima can be descended from Earth Dragons despite being created from Divine Dragon blood.

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1 minute ago, Shotguner159 said:

Or Thabes was a city founded by dragons. They are the only ancient, advanced civilisation on Archanea we know of, which is the description of those who built Thabes. Forneus' workshop is sealed by a lesser version of the Shield of Seals and is guarded by a degenerated Fire Dragon, so dragons evidently had a hand in sealing his workshop, something explicitly done by the Council of Thabes. 

Plus, if Forneus was an Earth Dragon, adding his blood to the Creation explains Grima's Earth Dragon traits, like Dragonskin, and how Grima can be descended from Earth Dragons despite being created from Divine Dragon blood.

That's... gotta be the wildest theory yet, saying that Forneus is a dragon. But damn would that be an interesting bit. XD

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2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Thabes was likely built and fell into ruin likely after the Dragon War. Since dragons completely dominated the continent and existed before humans, its unlikely for Thabes to have existed before humans founded it. Naga eventually died there, but I'm still not sure where the source of that info is from. Also, no she didn't. Naga didn't die 5000 years before Shadow Dragon. It's more 1000 years before Shadow Dragon. It's said that she died at the age of 5000. Grima is actually just a bit younger than Tiki (about 3000 years old in Awaknining) in fact. In a way, Grima is either some dark corrupted male clone of Naga or Tiki's little brother. XD

Okay, I have to interject: we have no confirmation that any of Naga's remains where used at all in the creation of Grima. Yes, it would make sense given the location, but considering its never mentioned, this is purly speculation with no concrete evidence. The only evidence is circumstantial at best.

Or Thabes was a city founded by dragons. They are the only ancient, advanced civilisation on Archanea we know of, which is the description of those who built Thabes. Forneus' workshop is sealed by a lesser version of the Shield of Seals and is guarded by a degenerated Fire Dragon, so dragons evidently had a hand in sealing his workshop, something explicitly done by the Council of Thabes. 

Plus, if Forneus was an Earth Dragon, adding his blood to the Creation explains Grima's Earth Dragon traits, like Dragonskin, and how Grima can be descended from Earth Dragons despite being created from Divine Dragon blood.

 

Or Grima was created using cells from a undead earth dragon or something. I mean, there were undead dragons in there, which I'd assume were other of Forneus' experiments. It would make sense if he used an earth dragon as the base, modifying and growing it using alchemy and then infusing it with divine dragon blood.

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Just now, TheWerdna said:

Okay, I have to interject: we have no confirmation that any of Naga's remains where used at all in the creation of Grima. Yes, it would make sense given the location, but considering its never mentioned, this is purly speculation with no concrete evidence. The only evidence is circumstantial at best.

Oh, I'm not 100% behind this case of Grima being created from Naga's remains. Hell, I'm not even sure if the info about Thabes being Naga's final resting place is even true. That info came from the wiki, and since I don't know the source its from, I'm not completely behind the case either.

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5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's... gotta be the wildest theory yet, saying that Forneus is a dragon. But damn would that be an interesting bit. XD

You reckon? It's also the conclusion I came to after thinking about it for five minutes for the exact reasons Shotgunner stated (though I'm not sure Grima needs to have any Earth Dragon relations. I don't see much Earth Drgony about him).

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4 hours ago, Jotari said:

You reckon? It's also the conclusion I came to after thinking about it for five minutes for the exact reasons Shotgunner stated (though I'm not sure Grima needs to have any Earth Dragon relations. I don't see much Earth Drgony about him).

Earth Dragons in Mystery of the Emblem take half damage from anyone who attacks them, which is what Dragonskin does. As Grima still has it here, but Duma, a Divine Dragon doesn't, it's clearly not something inherent to all powerful Dragons, so Grima's having it has to come from somewhere. As well, his origin prior to this game was that he was thought to be descended from Earth Dragons, so having his creator be an Earth Dragon means that information is still correct.

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9 hours ago, Jotari said:

You reckon? It's also the conclusion I came to after thinking about it for five minutes for the exact reasons Shotgunner stated (though I'm not sure Grima needs to have any Earth Dragon relations. I don't see much Earth Drgony about him).

 

4 hours ago, Shotguner159 said:

Earth Dragons in Mystery of the Emblem take half damage from anyone who attacks them, which is what Dragonskin does. As Grima still has it here, but Duma, a Divine Dragon doesn't, it's clearly not something inherent to all powerful Dragons, so Grima's having it has to come from somewhere. As well, his origin prior to this game was that he was thought to be descended from Earth Dragons, so having his creator be an Earth Dragon means that information is still correct.

The Knights of Iris book. It implies that Grima is descended from the Earth Dragons. But yeah, beyond what the book mentioned and Dragonskin, there's really nothing about Grima that looks like an Earth Dragon. Hell, Grima has TWO faces. His dragon face, and then after enough damage is dealt, a human skeletal face shows up. 

However, doesn't Celica and Alm mention that the labyrinth was made by humans when they enter the cave?

Quote

Alm: This grand husk of a capital once coursed with magic, but it has been forgotten for centuries, neglected, the victim of human folly. Now we disturb its rest…for what? What lies waiting for us deeper in?

Celica: An ancient fallen capital, its people drowned in their own magic power… This place has slumbered for centuries as a result of their greed.

 

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6 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

The Knights of Iris book. It implies that Grima is descended from the Earth Dragons. But yeah, beyond what the book mentioned and Dragonskin, there's really nothing about Grima that looks like an Earth Dragon. Hell, Grima has TWO faces. His dragon face, and then after enough damage is dealt, a human skeletal face shows up. 

However, doesn't Celica and Alm mention that the labyrinth was made by humans when they enter the cave?

 

Grima after he resurrects in Awakening does, yeah. However, he doesn't in Shadows of Valentia, and there's a huge dragon skull that's probably his near Plegia Castle that indicates he didn't have the human face at the time of the First Exalt either. Which means that Grima's human face only came about after he resurrected himself by devouring the Lifeforce of the Plegian's gathered at the Dragon's Table whilst connected to a human host.

They're wrong, and assume it was built by humans due to their biases. Unless Thabes predates the Golden Era of Dragons, then it can't have been a human civilisation, as Naga's death is 500 years before Archanea is established, and she died in Thabes. Which I found the source for, the perfect ending of Mystery gave a full timeline for the events on Archanea:

https://serenesforest.net/mystery-of-the-emblem/scripts/book-2-war-of-heroes/ending/

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48 minutes ago, Shotguner159 said:

Grima after he resurrects in Awakening does, yeah. However, he doesn't in Shadows of Valentia, and there's a huge dragon skull that's probably his near Plegia Castle that indicates he didn't have the human face at the time of the First Exalt either. Which means that Grima's human face only came about after he resurrected himself by devouring the Lifeforce of the Plegian's gathered at the Dragon's Table whilst connected to a human host.

They're wrong, and assume it was built by humans due to their biases. Unless Thabes predates the Golden Era of Dragons, then it can't have been a human civilisation, as Naga's death is 500 years before Archanea is established, and she died in Thabes. Which I found the source for, the perfect ending of Mystery gave a full timeline for the events on Archanea:

https://serenesforest.net/mystery-of-the-emblem/scripts/book-2-war-of-heroes/ending/

Not necessarily meaning that he never had the human face before or it just came after devouring humans. I think this could be more along the lines of there being 2 Grimas, as the Future and Present Grima now exist at the same time. Hardin wrote in that Future Grima resurrected Present Grima's body, but I still don't see the proof that it's Future and Present Grima being separate, but rather I believe that Future Grima is restoring his Dragon form after losing so much power traveling through time. 

THERE IT IS! The proof that Naga died in Thabes! Thank you. Sheesh, I was looking so hard for that. Thanks for that. So Naga DID indeed die in Thabes. 

When did Grima come to existence exactly? Couldn't it have been AFTER Naga's death? Thabes could have been dragon built or such, but couldn't humans have built the city or the tower afterwards? There's at least over 1000 years before Shadow Dragon had begun. Alm mentions centuries. In a way, couldn't humans had built on it and then Forneus went and did his demonic research? Although even if that's the case, there's a little contradiction in my saying there're humans that made it.

Thabes Labyrinth was made and is known for powerful magical energy as it says. However, humans only learned to properly wield magic after learning it from Gotoh, which likely happened after he founded Khadein. But I don't know when Khadein was made. If it happened after Naga's death, then there's a good chance that Thabes Labyrinth where Forneus was could have been made by humans. If not, then it is impossible for humans to have built the place. 

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18 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

The Knights of Iris book. It implies that Grima is descended from the Earth Dragons. But yeah, beyond what the book mentioned and Dragonskin, there's really nothing about Grima that looks like an Earth Dragon. Hell, Grima has TWO faces. His dragon face, and then after enough damage is dealt, a human skeletal face shows up. 

However, doesn't Celica and Alm mention that the labyrinth was made by humans when they enter the cave?

 

It's been neglected out of human folly, not necessarily built by humans originally. Either that or, more likely, Alm's just misinformed.

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Grima's 'dragon' face is a helmet of sorts. The etymology of Grima's name also literally means helmet/mask so the english name was chosen with this in mind. The 'skull' that's found in Plegia and seen during Chapter 9 is the same helmet.

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