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Origins of Mila and Duma (unmarked Endgame spoilers)


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Naga and Loptyr transferred their will and power into their tomes. You don't think that had anything to do with it? It's not stated or even implied that Naga was weakened before 'fighting' Loptyr. There is literally none. You're simply assuming that Naga was weakened for whatever reason to deny Naga and Loptyr were equals in power. 

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Why do you want to deny it so badly that Naga and Loptyr may not be equals at all? 

He denies it because Naga and Loptyr are stated to be equals. You can't deny statements from the game's creator to support your own theory. This is growing more crackpot by every post.

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44 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Would she have KNOWN that they were exiled if she didn't know them or if they were in a different clan? Different clans have their own rules and other clans can't exactly come in and say that that can't happen. If Earth Dragons banished them, that's their business. Naga would not just hand over Falchion to Duma cause of that. If anything, she'd have taken another measure if she learned them being a potential harm. She wouldn't go up to them and say, "Hey, I don't really know you, but take this sacred weapon forged from my fang. It'll help the humans take you down if the need ever arises." 

And before you say they could have known each other, I wanna ask, exactly why and how, if they were from different tribes? 

I'm just throwing a possible theory here. For all we know, Naga could suspect the chances of Medeus going rogue. He's an Earth Dragon, and the Divine Dragons just sealed his entire tribe away. You're saying that Naga would not even consider the possibility that Medeus would hold a grudge? Its his family and possibly friends that were banished away in a prison. 

But this is just a theory. We don't even know the original Naga was, nor have we ever seen the original Naga completely. Maybe she did have full trust in Medeus and didn't suspect him of anything, and made Falchion for Archanea only for insurance if Medeus wasn't enough to guard the seal.

The very fact that they go into the Shield of Seals, made by Naga herself, that combines the energy of the orbs to function as a seal should in itself be evidence to it. And I started looking through some dialogue, and it was being said that the orbs were made alongside the shield, which only adds more that it was the Divine Dragons that made them. In fact, this would also add to the fact that the Divine Dragons went near extinct, if they expended their own power to forge those orbs. 

Also, just as you claim they aren't Divine Dragon origin, you can't prove it yourself. However, with Echoes now retconning gods to dragons, confirming Duma and Mila into Divine Dragons, and them possessing dark and earth powers and the like, my side of the argument is just strengthened at this point and at this point, and pretty much confirming the Divine Dragons are most certainly NOT limited to just light elemental powers. 

That's the canon now. It was theorized before, its confirmed now. 

Its not whether she was strong or weak. Its whether she was weakENED that's the question. If she lost, there would have been mention that Naga was not as strong as before, but she won, so of course they would not delve, but in fact, the very fact that Naga died after sealing Tiki just adds to the fact that she was weakened. 

Again, Naga never directly FOUGHT Loptyr. She used Heim to do it, rather than actually fighting Loptyr's vessel herself. 

Also, you're saying that it took just Loptyr alone to weaken her so badly that it crippled her and the war did nothing? That's a bold claim if anything. 

"Loputousu, Narga and Holsety held different positions compared to the other dragons. Loputousu’s plan was obvious – “to use Bishop Galle to wreak vengeance on the humans”, which is why he formed a blood pact with Galle. The holy dark tome Loputousu contained Loputousu’s overpowering hatred and resentment towards humans, and was able to control the human who broke its seal (namely Bishop Galle’s descendants, those who inherited large amounts of the original pact-former’s blood). So it was, a human who possessed Loputousu’s strength and will was born. (The final boss of Genealogy of the Holy War was his victim.) In resistance, Narga gave the holy light tome, which he transferred his own will and power into, to Saint Heim. For Narga, who had always disliked interfering with the human world, this was a very worrying decision."

^ That's a mention about the question in the interview regarding Naga's role in the matter with Loptyr and the Holy Weapons. 

Also, think about this clearly. Loptyr completely possesses the person and uses them as a host, turning them evil and such. Naga's will is in the tome, but by no means would she ever control the person. But if her will was implanted into her tome so strongly as Loptyr's, her will WOULD control the human. So the fact that Heim and his descendents don't get possessed by Naga's will is because Naga's desire to not control them made her tome containing her powers and will to be less than how much Loptyr put in, which was everything. 

As for why I insist on this argument that you do not want to accept and I could very well be wrong in, its because like I said before, its my theory that I base around using logic and information. Why do you want to deny it so badly that Naga and Loptyr may not be equals at all? 

It came from me. Using the logic of the wars that happened, the circumstances, the time of death, and so on, its a theory that, while not airtight, holds plenty of water. 

The Dragon tribes were very much in contact with eachother at the time. The Earth tribe was quite prominent and word of some getting exiled would travel to the other tribes. You're suggesting Naga would let Valentian humans die out of pride? Dragons moving to another continent filled with humans was very much Naga's business. People like Salamander show Naga wasn't just limited to the Divine Dragon tribe.

Naga very much believed dragons would give everything for the sake of humans, if Medeus was viewed as untrustworthy, he wouldn't have been given one of the most important positions there was.

The Divine Dragons get top billing in the Miracle of Darna, but they weren't the only ones there. You've proven nothing indicating other spheres were made solely of Divine Dragon essence, most likely the other spheres had the essence of other dragon tribe members like the Miracle of Darna, or had something outside of Dragon essence. Xane distinctly says battling the other Earth Dragons killed them, so that Sphere theory doesn't hold water.

Divine Dragons are still primary associated with Sky and Heaven in every other game, Duma and Mila could just be weird mutants outside of the Divine Dragon norm.

No, its canon in Echoes, Duma had powers outside the norm.

Why are you arguing for a change that would only make the series significantly more boring anyhow?

Kaga is a very descriptive narrator when describing aspects of the Fire Emblem world, just look at his in-depth answer on why Tomes break. If Naga looks healthy, is depicted as healthy, and everything indicates Naga was healthy in the miracle of Darna, saying Naga was crippled is quite absurd.

Most likely Naga died due to expending all the power fighting Loptyr.

Forseti explains fighting fire with fire was the only way of dealing with Loptyr. Naga put all of their essence into a tome, and their essence battled Loptyr's. 

Your claim that Naga would still be crippled after hundreds of years of rest is absurd.

"Strength and Will" describing Loptyr, those are literally the same descriptors Naga's tome gets. All three Dragon tomes are described as transferring will. It literally states there that the users of the Naga tome are controlled by Naga's transferred will, did you not pay attention?

This comes off as you disliking FE4, as you're coming up with every excuse(Naga didn't put all their power into their tome, Naga was crippled) to say Loptyr was weak and unthreatening. If anything, you do not want to accept Loptyr was established as Naga's equal and rival.

No, its not logical at all given Naga's years of rest and all info depicting Naga as a healthy. It again comes off as you just trying to demean the Jugdral games.

19 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The very proof is what Xane said regarding Naga's death. After sealing Tiki away, Naga just dies? Why? 

Naga couldn't have died to just seal away her daughter in slumber. Tiki was merely an infant. Naga's power at that point was far stronger than Tiki's, even if Tiki had potential to surpass Naga later on in life. So how could Naga had just died? 

Suicide? That's crazy talk. Naga had no reason to just kill herself. 

Exhaustion from Loptyr? You expect to believe that Naga exhausted herself facing a SINGLE Earth Dragon, not even directly, but rather through a magic tome that contained her power and will, but she was unscathed by an entire WAR against the ENTIRE Earth Dragon Tribe? 

Follow the logic here. The war HAD to have taken its toll on Naga. It makes absolutely no sense for Naga to die at the age of merely 5000 years.

Naga's very essence was put into the tome.

Loptyr was again, Naga's equal in power, not an ordinary Earth Dragon just as Salamander wasn't an ordinary Fire Dragon, or Naga an ordinary Divine dragon. Again Naga's essence was put into the book.

Keep in mind Naga died not long after the war against Loptyr, but lived quite a while after the war against the Degenerated Dragons.

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On 4/16/2017 at 6:58 PM, Emperor Hardin said:

Apparently Duma was banished before degeneration. No idea on his weird powers that clearly aren't Divine Dragon norm.

In the original, Falchion was an ordinary sword made special by Mila being sealed in it.

Rudolf and Duma came up with the plan to rid the world of Gods themselves, Mila wasn't agree. In the remake, Mila willingly allowed herself to be sealed.

No idea on Gradivus, I'm a little disappointed that Rudolf doesn't wield it. I heard Kaga initially planned a Gradivus and Falchion to appear in every Fire Emblem game and Gaiden is remnant of it.

I offer one explanation for Duma using dark magic: we see in other games that earth dragons who undergo degradation become Dark Dragons. Perhaps becoming inherently tied to dark magic is a side effect of degradation, regardless of the type of dragon?

Anyhow, despite the retcon, I think this change does end up doing far more good than bad. Yes, the fact one uses earth magic and another uses dark is weird, but this ties FE2 more into the rest of the "Archanea-verse" more and makes the overall universe more coherent. In every other game in that universe we only ever see Dragons being worshiped as gods rather than actual gods, so for the sake of consistency this makes more sense.

Also, just because Divine Dragons are associated with light doesn't necessarily mean they can ONLY use light. In fact, it seems like dragons of all types are inherently skilled at magic in general, so what's to say they can't choose to use other types of magic even if they inherently possess powers of a specific one?

Plus apparently Naga has time-space manipulation powers, which isn't exactly light based. If anything, that is more of stretch then the whole Mila and Duma thing

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8 minutes ago, TheWerdna said:

Plus apparently Naga has time-space manipulation powers, which isn't exactly light based. If anything, that is more of stretch then the whole Mila and Duma thing

That I would agree with.

I can buy Duma using different powers like a human wizard, I just don't like the idea of Divine Dragons being the unquestioned master of all elements as it makes all other dragons pointless. 

Duma being a Shadow Dragon could be interesting.

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27 minutes ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

Naga and Loptyr transferred their will and power into their tomes. You don't think that had anything to do with it? It's not stated or even implied that Naga was weakened before 'fighting' Loptyr. There is literally none. You're simply assuming that Naga was weakened for whatever reason to deny Naga and Loptyr were equals in power. 

He denies it because Naga and Loptyr are stated to be equals. You can't deny statements from the game's creator to support your own theory. This is growing more crackpot by every post.

Okay, let's get one thing straight here. I honestly do not have any issues with Loptyr and Naga being equals. My issue here is that it just contradicts everything on a logical sense. You're basically saying that the ENTIRE war with the ENTIRE Earth Dragons did not so much as leave a MARK on Naga that she was only ever weakened by Loptyr? That's pure bullshit. You expect that to make sense? 

27 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The Dragon tribes were very much in contact with eachother at the time. The Earth tribe was quite prominent and word of some getting exiled would travel to the other tribes. You're suggesting Naga would let Valentian humans die out of pride? Dragons moving to another continent filled with humans was very much Naga's business. People like Salamander show Naga wasn't just limited to the Divine Dragon tribe.

You cannot involve what happened in Genealogy the same way here. By the point of Genealogy, the remaining dragons were already a shell of their formers selves, having to no longer rule the land and becoming manaketes. Given the little information we have in the golden age, we have no way of knowing if the dragons were as close as you claim. All we do know is that the dragons lived in peace, the Divine and Earth dragons were the strongest, and then the degeneration happened. 

And even if Naga knew that the Earth dragons were being sent to another continent, that doesn't mean that she'll give them her fang. That's stupid. Because for all she knew, they could use that fang AGAINST her. She'd have no trust in them. Its not pride, its common sense. If she didn't know them, if she had no relations to them, and they were just random dragons that just happened to be exiled, she'd have no reason. It only makes better sense as Divine Dragons because she'd have more of an opportunity to know them, thus trusting them enough to give her fang and consider that it wouldn't be misused. 

The very way you're describing it makes little sense. 

27 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Naga very much believed dragons would give everything for the sake of humans, if Medeus was viewed as untrustworthy, he wouldn't have been given one of the most important positions there was.

That doesn't answer my question. I asked if you think that Naga would never have ever slightly considered the idea that Medeus might hold a grudge for what happened to his tribe? And the very fact that she got through a war where the majority of dragons went insane out of pride showed that no, dragons do NOT hold humanity in such a high regard, so what you said just now makes no sense.

27 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The Divine Dragons get top billing in the Miracle of Darna, but they weren't the only ones there. You've proven nothing indicating other spheres were made solely of Divine Dragon essence, most likely the other spheres had the essence of other dragon tribe members like the Miracle of Darna, or had something outside of Dragon essence. Xane distinctly says battling the other Earth Dragons killed them, so that Sphere theory doesn't hold water.

... Okay, here's how you just contradicted yourself. First off, the very fact that Xane HAD to have been one of those dragons that battled the Earth Dragons, and Gotoh, but THEY survived, just showed that no, not all Divine Dragons died from that war. Next, the very fact that Nowi might be a Divine Dragon means she has a Divine Dragon as a parent, so that person could be a survivor. 

So no, there ARE Divine Dragon survivors, and not all died from the war. But there are scarce amount at this point. But this way that shows that the orbs could likely have been made by the Divine Dragons. Also, it was only the Divine Dragons that fought the Earth Dragons would only mean that they would have contributed to sealing the Earth Dragons, so that would only make sense that THEY'D make those orbs. 

27 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Divine Dragons are still primary associated with Sky and Heaven in every other game, If anything Duma and Mila are weird mutants outside of the Divine Dragon norm.

No, its canon in Echoes, Duma had powers outside the norm.

Here we go again. First off, we're STILL on the case where Forseti might be a Divine Dragon, and is wind element. So its not that surprising if other Divine Dragons can perform more than the norm of "light" element. And it goes that they aren't mutants at all, just Divine Dragons, likely powerful ones. 

27 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Why are you arguing for a change that would only make the series significantly more boring anyhow?

Sigh... okay, I'm not trying to be mean here, but all I'm doing is telling theories and possible stuff that COULD be the case. Its what I do. I see information and stuff, ideas form, and I make theories out of it.

Also, what you said is an opinion. It can very well be good to other people. Just cause you don't like it doesn't mean others wouldn't like it either. 

27 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Most likely Naga died due to expending all the power fighting Loptyr.

And I call bullshit on that. If you're saying that an indirect battle against a SINGLE Earth Dragon is enough to cripple her, as opposed to an entire WAR with the ENTIRE Tribe, that's almost insulting to how wars work.

27 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Kaga is a very descriptive narrator when describing aspects of the Fire Emblem world, just look at his in-depth answer on why Tomes break. If Naga looks healthy, is depicted as healthy, and everything indicates Naga was healthy in the miracle of Darna, saying Naga was crippled is quite absurd.

A vague illustration, no actual mention that she was actually healthy nor was she mentioned to be crippled, and you pass it off as saying that she wasn't crippled as pure fact? She only had a SINGLE appearance and you claim she was perfectly healthy? She could LOOK healthy, but then again, so do a lot of people. That doesn't mean a damn thing if your body is suffering on the inside and you might never know it.

27 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Forseti explains fighting fire with fire was the only way of dealing with Loptyr. Naga put all of their essence into a tome, and their essence battled Loptyr's. 

If anything you're claim that Naga would still be crippled after hundreds of years of rest is absurd.

Are you serious? Do you honestly think that injuries sustained in a gruesome war that killed dragons off despite their substantially large lifespan would heal just like that? 200 years is barely anything for dragons. To humans, its a long time. To dragons, a blink of the eye. The damage they sustain that can actually kill them is great, so yes, scars and wounds WOULD last even after 200 years. 

29 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

"Strength and Will" describing Loptyr, those are literally the same descriptors Naga's tome gets. All three Dragon tomes are described as transferring will. It literally states there that the users of the Naga tome are controlled by Naga's transferred will, did you not pay attention?

Are you paying any attention? Loptyr CONTROLLED people. Naga at best INFLUENCED them. But Kaga stated that putting her will was a "worrying decision". She didn't want to control humans. Loptyr did. The difference in desires actually makes ALL the difference. If Naga's tome shows to influence wills at best as opposed to controlling them, that means more that her will was not implanted as strongly, but it was still very strong. It stated that Naga also put her will into it, but based on how we've seen Julia with the tome, she wasn't showing any outrageous change in behavior, but she was feeling Naga's will through the tome. 

So based on the interview and now the gameplay on Julia, that's already proof that Naga hadn't implanted so much power into it that she was able to control others.

33 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

This comes off as you disliking FE4, as you're coming up with every excuse(Naga didn't put all their power into their tome, Naga was crippled) to say Loptyr was weak and unthreatening. If anything, you do not want to accept Loptyr was established as Naga's equal and rival.

No, its not logical at all given Naga's years of rest and all info depicting Naga as a healthy. It again comes off as you just trying to demean the Jugdral games.

Don't put words into my mouth. I enjoyed the story of Genealogy. It was very incredible and impressive with how the story was rather complex and the development as incredible. However, if I notice issues or stuff, I have the desire to point it out and give ideas on why this and that are happening. Don't assume me insisting that Naga was crippled and they weren't equals as me hating on Genealogy. Its me trying to make sense of things, because Naga dying after the fight with Loptyr could only be believable in my opinion if Naga was already weakened by then. 

36 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Loptyr was again, Naga's equal in power, not an ordinary Earth Dragon just as Salamander wasn't an ordinary Fire Dragon, or Naga an ordinary Divine dragon. Again Naga's essence was put into the book.

We know nothing about Salamander, just that he was very likely a Fire Dragon. He could have been an ordinary Fire Dragon that decided to help. Hell, he could have been Bantu. 

Just because Naga implanted her power and will into her book doesn't mean she put everything into it like Loptyr did with his tome. Because unlike Loptyr, Naga's tome and the other weapons were not made to last forever. The power would decay over time, which it does, which supports that Naga didn't put all her power into it. If she did, the tome would never decay in power. 

41 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Keep in mind Naga died not long after the war against Loptyr, but lived quite a while after the war against the Degenerated Dragons.

Again, are you saying that the war did nothing to Naga, against an entire dragon tribe, but a single Earth Dragon was too much for Naga? 

13 minutes ago, TheWerdna said:

Plus apparently Naga has time-space manipulation powers, which isn't exactly light based. If anything, that is more of stretch then the whole Mila and Duma thing

HOW THE HELL DID I FORGET TO MENTION THAT? DX

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On 4/17/2017 at 11:26 PM, Emperor Hardin said:

Kaga's answers to the questions on the Miracle of Darna were indepth, if Naga was gravely wounded and weakened, he certainly would not let it go unmentioned.

Then why are you arguing it?

That still doesn't say the non Blade parts of Falchion were made by humans. 

Originally, it is likely that the non-blade parts of Falchion were not made by humans, but were constructed out of normal metal. But from the Awakening support conversations it sounds like humans have had to replace and repair those parts as they are just metal and wear down over time, while the blade does not.

That I would agree with.

I can buy Duma using different powers like a human wizard, I just don't like the idea of Divine Dragons being the unquestioned master of all elements as it makes all other dragons pointless. 

Duma being a Shadow Dragon could be interesting.

And like it or not, Awakening is canon, so its had to say this change to Mila and Duma makes less sense to aforementioned things.  Is this change a retcon? !00%.  Do I think that's a bad thing? No, because in the long run it is making the overall Archanea-verse more coherent as one big narrative. Its explaining stuff that desperately needed to be explained. Does it suck for fans of the original that things got changed? Yes, it does. But do I think this ended up doing more good than harm? Yes.  However, this is just my opinion on the matter.  Also, question: While Mila was known as an earth goddes, wouldn't the powers she was shown to have in the original actually much closer to being life magic than earth magic? Like, she made crops grow and shit, and when she was sealed, zombies started coming out (a perversion of life magic perhaps?). While her titles are very much earth themed, I'd argue her power set is very in line with a divine dragon.  As for Duma... well, again, if I were the one coming up with an reasoning I'd go with the idea of: Dragon of any tribe + degradation = Shadow Dragon

Edited by TheWerdna
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32 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Okay, let's get one thing straight here. I honestly do not have any issues with Loptyr and Naga being equals. My issue here is that it just contradicts everything on a logical sense. You're basically saying that the ENTIRE war with the ENTIRE Earth Dragons did not so much as leave a MARK on Naga that she was only ever weakened by Loptyr? That's pure bullshit. You expect that to make sense? 

Yes, it makes perfect sense. 

Also, Naga was not weakened by Loptyr either. Naga didn't even fight Loptyr directly. The actual Loptyr is also long dead or sealed by the time of the Miracle od Darna. Naga transferred their power and will into the tome and shortly after, sealed Tiki and ended their life. This is a logical chain of events and there is nothing to suggest that Naga was weakened or crippled or whatever before the Miracle of Darna.

Edited by Ranger Jack Walker
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Also, I would like to offer a solution to the problem of people who dislike the retcon and those who like it.

Fire Emblem already exists in a multiverse, so why not just say the Shadow Dragon, FE12, Awakening, Echoes and the inevitable FE4/5 remakes exist within their own continuity seperate from the original FE1, 2, 3, 4, and 5? There's basically confirmed parallel universes and timelines in the canon, so what's stopping that?

Edited by TheWerdna
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52 minutes ago, TheWerdna said:

Also, I would like to offer a solution to the problem of people who dislike the retcon and those who like it.

Fire Emblem already exists in a multiverse, so why not just say the Shadow Dragon, FE12, Awakening, Echoes and the inevitable FE4/5 remakes exist within their own continuity seperate from the original FE1, 2, 3, 4, and 5? There's basically confirmed parallel universes and timelines in the canon, so what's stopping that?

i mean fe12 retcons fe3 into being a story

so that explanation doesn't really work there

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I'm not sure if that can be a solution. There's also the matter that the "new canon" will be the one to be referenced/mentioned over "old canon" from now on, which is a shaft for those that would prefer the latter. Even with the whole multiverse thing, it has been effectively replaced, so to speak.

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4 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

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And I call bullshit on that. If you're saying that an indirect battle against a SINGLE Earth Dragon is enough to cripple her, as opposed to an entire WAR with the ENTIRE Tribe, that's almost insulting to how wars work.

That is how war in FE works, if you have enough defense you don't take damage from generics, but one enemy as strong as you can very well kill you.

The non-Naga Divine Dragons couldn't stand up to Loptyr, so it makes sense to assume he's as strong as Naga. The Earth Dragons had degenerated, so it's not like they could have taken advantage of their superior numbers or anything. (Is there any exposition on how Naga vs the Earth Dragons actually went down?) EDIT: According to FE3 Chapter 12, it was the Divine Dragon tribe, not just Naga.

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Are 

you paying any attention? Loptyr CONTROLLED people. Naga at best INFLUENCED them. But Kaga stated that putting her will was a "worrying decision". She didn't want to control humans. Loptyr did. The difference in desires actually makes ALL the difference. 

There's no reason to think that. Forseti controlled Lewyn, but was still unable to fight Loptyr.

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5 hours ago, TheWerdna said:

And like it or not, Awakening is canon, so its had to say this change to Mila and Duma makes less sense to aforementioned things.  Is this change a retcon? !00%.  Do I think that's a bad thing? No, because in the long run it is making the overall Archanea-verse more coherent as one big narrative. Its explaining stuff that desperately needed to be explained. Does it suck for fans of the original that things got changed? Yes, it does. But do I think this ended up doing more good than harm? Yes.  However, this is just my opinion on the matter.  Also, question: While Mila was known as an earth goddes, wouldn't the powers she was shown to have in the original actually much closer to being life magic than earth magic? Like, she made crops grow and shit, and when she was sealed, zombies started coming out (a perversion of life magic perhaps?). While her titles are very much earth themed, I'd argue her power set is very in line with a divine dragon.  As for Duma... well, again, if I were the one coming up with an reasoning I'd go with the idea of: Dragon of any tribe + degradation = Shadow Dragon

That's what I was saying. Mila's power were more "Life" element rather than "Earth" because of how she revives the dead, brings crops to life, and her sealing caused zombies to appear. I did say that in an earlier post. 

Though now that you mention it, looking at how Medeus became a Dark Dragon, and how Iduun became a Demon Dragon, dark magic or being corrupted by something could cause a dragon to develop dark powers. 

5 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I can buy Duma using different powers like a human wizard, I just don't like the idea of Divine Dragons being the unquestioned master of all elements as it makes all other dragons pointless. 

Okay, now I get how my arguments was not to your liking. SO rather let's go with what Werdna said as a compromise. It isn't that Divine Dragons were master of all elements, but rather had one element as their main base, but their powers and knowledge allowed them use and create magic that were not restricted to that element. This is possible for other dragons as well, its just more obvious with the Divine Dragons. 

Also, I will apologize. I kept insisting that the mist breath was NOT light elemental, and graphics was not enough proof. I actually looked the Divine Dragons and their attack closer from the wiki and other info. So apparently the mist breath contains a "divine light" within it that can damage other dragons. 

4 hours ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

Yes, it makes perfect sense. 

Also, Naga was not weakened by Loptyr either. Naga didn't even fight Loptyr directly. The actual Loptyr is also long dead or sealed by the time of the Miracle od Darna. Naga transferred their power and will into the tome and shortly after, sealed Tiki and ended their life. This is a logical chain of events and there is nothing to suggest that Naga was weakened or crippled or whatever before the Miracle of Darna.

But this would ultimately indicate that all the other Earth Dragons were basically a bunch of pansies and Naga broke no sweat against them. Which is actually a spit in the face for all the Divine Dragons that Xane said ultimately died and how the Divine Dragon Tribe essentially got led to extinction. In fact, its even going with how the war did affect the Divine Dragons that some lost their ability to transform. That's on the wiki, so I won't be 100% sure on that, but to say that Naga was unaffected by it, but only the Miracle of Darna affected her to be complete BS.

2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

There's no reason to think that. Forseti controlled Lewyn, but was still unable to fight Loptyr.

It wasn't a complete control there either. In the interview, it was said that Forseti's will and Lewyn's sort of mixed together and they were more or less the same. 

4 hours ago, TheWerdna said:

Also, I would like to offer a solution to the problem of people who dislike the retcon and those who like it.

Fire Emblem already exists in a multiverse, so why not just say the Shadow Dragon, FE12, Awakening, Echoes and the inevitable FE4/5 remakes exist within their own continuity seperate from the original FE1, 2, 3, 4, and 5? There's basically confirmed parallel universes and timelines in the canon, so what's stopping that?

That's not a real solution, though. Its hard to accept the new verses as separate, when its a remake. People can't suddenly accept it as just something of a parallel universe.

-

So in the end, my biggest issue ultimate goes back to FE3/12, as it was just how Xane describes the war with the Earth Dragons so brutal that ultimately brought the extinction of the Divine Dragon Tribe, then Naga's life ending at the age of 5000. It makes absolutely no logical sense for Naga to not have been damaged or injured from that war that affected her overall lifespan. Maybe Loptyr was Naga's equal, and while Naga was injured physically, her overall power might not have truly waned, but when encased in the tome, it did weaken her power and life force further. 

All I'm saying is that I cannot accept an idea that it was a single indirect conflict with Loptyr that crippled Naga as opposed to the entire war with the Earth Dragons. It just doesn't make any sense on a logical standpoint.

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9 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

But this would ultimately indicate that all the other Earth Dragons were basically a bunch of pansies and Naga broke no sweat against them. Which is actually a spit in the face for all the Divine Dragons that Xane said ultimately died and how the Divine Dragon Tribe essentially got led to extinction. In fact, its even going with how the war did affect the Divine Dragons that some lost their ability to transform. That's on the wiki, so I won't be 100% sure on that, but to say that Naga was unaffected by it, but only the Miracle of Darna affected her to be complete BS.

So in the end, my biggest issue ultimate goes back to FE3/12, as it was just how Xane describes the war with the Earth Dragons so brutal that ultimately brought the extinction of the Divine Dragon Tribe, then Naga's life ending at the age of 5000. It makes absolutely no logical sense for Naga to not have been damaged or injured from that war that affected her overall lifespan. Maybe Loptyr was Naga's equal, and while Naga was injured physically, her overall power might not have truly waned, but when encased in the tome, it did weaken her power and life force further. 

All I'm saying is that I cannot accept an idea that it was a single indirect conflict with Loptyr that crippled Naga as opposed to the entire war with the Earth Dragons. It just doesn't make any sense on a logical standpoint.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't make sense or that's it's BS. Nothing indicated that Naga's lifespan was affected by the war. End of discussion. Your crackpot theory is wild fanfic at best with no basis in fact. We know Naga fought as a human wielding the Falchion and not through use of their Dragonstone where all their power is stored. This is a perfectly reasonably explanation to why Naga's lifespan was not affected whereas the other dragons exhausted their dragonstones through overuse. It's perfectly logical.

Naga transferred all their power and will into the tome (as Kaga stated, the dragonstones were sacrificed at the Miracle of Darna) and died soon after. Naga did not fight Loptyr. Naga literally transferred all their power and will from their dragonstone and self into the tome of Naga. 

There's no 'maybe' in regards to if Loptyr was Naga's equal. Loptyr WAS Naga's equal. No ifs and buts.

It makes perfect sense regardless of how unwilling you are to accept this fact.

You go out of your way to dismiss every single piece of canon information we've been given about Naga. @Emperor Hardin is right. Kaga was very descriptive and both the illustration of Naga shows them to be perfectly normal and his own description says nothing or even hints to any crackpot nonsense that Naga was somehow weakened. If it was the case, it would have been mentioned like a lot of other insignificant details. It's stated that Naga and Loptyr are equals. There is not mention of any crippling injury from the war that came before. There is every reason to believe that transferring their power and will into the tomes is what caused the Naga to die. 

Naga was not crippled. This is fact and makes perfect sense.

Naga and Loptyr were equals. This is fact and makes perfect sense.

Enough nonsense, please.

Edited by Ranger Jack Walker
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7 minutes ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't make sense or that's it's BS. Nothing indicated that Naga's lifespan was affected by the war. End of discussion. Your crackpot theory is wild fanfic at best with no basis in fact. We know Naga fought as a human wielding the Falchion and not through use of their Dragonstone where all their power is stored. This is a perfectly reasonably explanation to why Naga's lifespan was not affected whereas the other dragons exhausted their dragonstones through overuse. It's perfectly logical.

Naga transferred all their power and will into the tome (as Kaga stated, the dragonstones were sacrificed at the Miracle of Darna) and died soon after. Naga did not fight Loptyr. Naga literally transferred all their power and will from their dragonstone and self into the tome of Naga. 

There's no 'maybe' in regards to if Loptyr was Naga's equal. Loptyr WAS Naga's equal. No ifs and buts.

It makes perfect sense regardless of how unwilling you are to accept this fact.

Naga was not crippled. This is fact and makes perfect sense.

Naga and Loptyr were equals. This is fact and makes perfect sense.

There's nothing "perfect" about this sense. There is nothing about what you said here that makes "perfect sense". 

In fact, now I'm even MORE convinced that Naga had to have suffered from the war with the Earth Dragons, because otherwise, Xane's words are a clear contradiction. If he described the war to have been so brutal that it brought the entire Divine Dragon Tribe to near extinction and using so much power, then that actually more or less CONFIRMS that Naga HAD in fact suffered from the war. 

I'll somewhat agree to them being equals in power, though Naga was still superior in the end, as Naga's power DID beat Loptyr's twice and Loptyr was fearful of anyone carrying Naga's bloodline. 

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

There's nothing "perfect" about this sense. There is nothing about what you said here that makes "perfect sense". 

In fact, now I'm even MORE convinced that Naga had to have suffered from the war with the Earth Dragons, because otherwise, Xane's words are a clear contradiction. If he described the war to have been so brutal that it brought the entire Divine Dragon Tribe to near extinction and using so much power, then that actually more or less CONFIRMS that Naga HAD in fact suffered from the war. 

I'll somewhat agree to them being equals in power, though Naga was still superior in the end, as Naga's power DID beat Loptyr's twice and Loptyr was fearful of anyone carrying Naga's bloodline. 

No, it still makes perfect sense. If Naga had been affected, it would have been mentioned. Xane is not contradicted at all. The other dragons died because they used up their dragonstones. Naga didn't use their dragonstone. Naga was not crippled or weakened. Kaga's notes says the Jugdral Holy Weapons have the power of an entire dragonstone in them. Naga was fine long after the war but dies almost immediately after transferring their power and will into the tome and sacrificing the power of their dragonstone? The same way how the other divine dragons died by exhausting their stones?

Denying this is just silly.

Every piece of evidence makes it clear that Naga was not weakened. Literally suggests that Naga was weakened. 

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28 minutes ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

No, it still makes perfect sense. If Naga had been affected, it would have been mentioned. Xane is not contradicted at all. The other dragons died because they used up their dragonstones. Naga didn't use their dragonstone. Naga was not crippled or weakened. Kaga's notes says the Jugdral Holy Weapons have the power of an entire dragonstone in them. Naga was fine long after the war but dies almost immediately after transferring their power and will into the tome and sacrificing the power of their dragonstone? The same way how the other divine dragons died by exhausting their stones?

Denying this is just silly.

Every piece of evidence makes it clear that Naga was not weakened. Literally suggests that Naga was weakened. 

That does contradict with facts. Xane said that Falchion and the Shield of Seals were made AFTER the war, not DURING the war. Meaning Naga DID use her Dragon powers to fight the Earth Dragons. The Shield of Seals were made to seal away the Earth Dragons, and Falchion was forged as well to allow humans to now have a chance to fight against dragons. 

So Xane referring to the entire Divine Dragon race to have been affected by the war to basically confirm that Naga WAS in fact affected by the war. 

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9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That does contradict with facts. Xane said that Falchion and the Shield of Seals were made AFTER the war, not DURING the war. Meaning Naga DID use her Dragon powers to fight the Earth Dragons. The Shield of Seals were made to seal away the Earth Dragons, and Falchion was forged as well to allow humans to now have a chance to fight against dragons. 

So Xane referring to the entire Divine Dragon race to have been affected by the war to basically confirm that Naga WAS in fact affected by the war. 

The hell are you talking about? Only the the Binding Shield was created afterwards and I didn't even mention it. Falchion was forged before and used by Naga. Naga created Falchion for the humans to use later but only the shield is stated to have been created after the war. It's literally in the timelines given in the game.

Edited by Ranger Jack Walker
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6 minutes ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

The hell are you talking about? Only the the Binding Shield was created afterwards and I didn't even mention it. Falchion was forged before and used by Naga. Naga created Falchion for the humans to use later but only the shield is stated to have been created after the war. It's literally in the timelines given in the game.

Wrong. It literally states in the timeline that Naga forged it along with the Shied of Seals so that humanity had a chance to defend itself. Even Xane says it when Marth asks him about the Falchion. The legends made by humans talk about Naga being a god that came with the Falchion and the Shield of Seals and defeated the evil Earth Dragons. Xane, being a Divine Dragon that partook in the war, would be the one that knows the truth about what had happened. 

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Wrong, the timeline says it was sealed with the Binding Shield at the same time, not created at the same time. Xane says the Falchion was created for humans to use if they needed it but doesn't say when it was created unlike the Binding Shield which he explicitly states was created after.

Edited by Ranger Jack Walker
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3 minutes ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

Wrong, the timeline says it was sealed with the Binding Shield at the same time, not created at the same time. Xane says the Falchion was created for humans to use if they needed it but doesn't say when it was created unlike the Binding Shield which he explicitly states was created after.

Which Xane said that it was made from her fangs and "together with the shield, she sealed it in the fane" meaning that it was created alongside the Shield of Seals. Meaning that Falchion and the Shield of Seals were created together. 

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"together with the shield, she sealed it in the fane"

That literally means it was sealed together with the shield in the fane. How the hell do misinterpret the line so much? Especially given the line in FE3 is "The sword was sealed within Raman Temple, along with the shield." No mention of them being created at the same time. 

Even this new retcon places the creation of Valentia's Falchion long before the war with the Earth Dragons.

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Just now, Ranger Jack Walker said:

That literally means it was sealed together with the shield in the fane. How the hell do misinterpret the line so much? Especially given the line in FE3 is "The sword was sealed within Raman Temple, along with the shield." No mention of them being created at the same time. 

Even this new retcon places the creation of Valentia's Falchion long before the war with the Earth Dragons.

Echoes having that Falchion doesn't mean Naga used it during the war, and its even unlikely she did, because that Falchion was Duma's at that point. Also, there was never any proof that Naga fought with Falchion. All that was confirmed that Naga forged it to give HUMANS a chance to fight dragons. By no means does it mean that she ever used it, because she would never had needed to. 

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Also, something I just learned. The thing about the "earth spirits" and using "Megaquake" could actually be tied in what's confirmed to be "Magic" in the Archanea world.

"Originally primitive deities existed at Akaneia and people believed these deities existed in all things. To lead mankind, Gotoh utilized the power of these deities. Magic (both offensive and recovery) is about as advanced as the dragon race’s technology, but it was difficult and dangerous for humans to use. Gotoh convinced humans to borrow the deities’ powers and warned them at the same time. So fire magic comes from the deity of fire, wind magic is borrowed from the deity of wind and etc. Magic is thus the technology where one harnesses energy that exists naturally. Spell books and staves can be thought of as vessels that store this energy. To release this energy requires a certain amount of skill, such as by chanting keywords or through mental control techniques. In order to acquire a sufficient skill level, one must undergo self-training. Prayers to the deities seems to reveal the keywords, while it also raises one’s mental capacity. Meanwhile, to protect the most powerful spells, like Aura or Excalibur, Gotoh attached a contract to them so that only the user could wield them. The same kind of protection was also placed on the Falchion."

If that's the case, then its likely that Megaquake and such are just powerful magic using actual "spirits" that comprise the magic and such. Divine and other Dragon Tribes could essentially utilize these magic powers for themselves, and because they were super advanced and dangerous for humans, dragons could only use the power as easily and well compared to humans.

This would also make some sense on the case of Falchion being tied to certain people and such, and how there's said to be a spirit inside Falchion that's picky with wielders as Lucina said.

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8 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

 Also, there was never any proof that Naga fought with Falchion.

True, but there's no proof she didn't. If she did make Falchion before the war, it would be a good weapon for her to use that doesn't drain her life force.

On the other hand, your theory about Loptyr being stronger just because he was fully controlling Galle/Julius contradicts what Forseti says in FE4 Final Chapter

Quote

Levin:
“Yet Loputousu’s clan wields the most diabolic power of the entire tribe. King Narga passed his own blood onto the leader of the liberation army, Bishop Heim. That was Narga’s only hope to rival the Loputian power.”

Celice:
“Couldn’t any of the other tribesmen take on Loputousu?”

Levin:
“Doesn’t seem likely. Even with all their power combined, they’d still need Narga’s.

You should apply the same standards to theories that support your headcanon as you do to theories that don't.

Edited by Baldrick
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1 minute ago, Baldrick said:

True, but there's no proof she didn't. If she did make Falchion before the war, it would be a good weapon for her to use that doesn't drain her life force.

On the other hand, your theory about Loptyr being stronger just because he was fully controlling Galle/Julius contradicts what Forseti says in FE4 Final Chapter

But the thing that's been repeatedly given through statements is that Naga made Falchion solely for the humans, not for her. She had her own powers and abilities and had no need to use Falchion. Also, while its true that she technically COULD take her manakete form and fight using Falchion, its actually been shown that Manaketes are very weak and frail when in their human form, because so much power was sealed into their dragonstone that without it, they are actually more prone to damage than humans. Naga taking the entire Earth Dragon Tribe with the other Divine Dragons while she was in manakete form is actually more dangerous.

Also, that... doesn't actually contradict what I said, though. I said that Loptyr is able to invoke ALL his powers as an Earth Dragon because his tome contained all his malevolence and hatred towards humanity, that his will actually controls the humans that hold his bloodline. Naga knew that implanting her will into her tome would do the same, and its stated that that worried her. But from what we've seen, not only does the Book of Naga eventually weaken as time goes on by, her will never overwrites those that use her tome in the end. Influenced, sure. But not controlled in the same way Loptyr does. 

In that case, it's actually clear that Naga didn't put all her will and power into it, possibly out of fear of it taking over the person. I could be wrong, and she could still have encased her power without placing so much of her will, but given how its being stated about magic, it seems that the power of the will within the tome has an influence in the power of the magic itself. 

Forseti probably did put more of his will into is tome, because he loved humans even deeper than Naga did, mostly because he was very young as a dragon. And we saw how it worked to the point that his tome made his will take over Lewyn in the end, but only because Lewyn already died at that point, hence why Forseti could possess him as he revived him. 

Back to Loptyr, we have to keep in mind that he's an Earth Dragons, so its obvious that his power would be incredibly high, as he would be stronger than any other dragon tribe that wasn't Earth or Divine. Since its more accepted that the 11 Dragons Naga brought comprised of a mix of all the Dragon Tribes minus the Earth Dragon Tribe, then any other tribe that aren't Divine Dragons wouldn't be much of a match. 

Of course, unless you mean to say that Forseti saying that they need Naga's power to stop Loptyr because Loptyr is so ridiculously strong, then you're saying that supports the idea that Loptyr is an Earth Dragon with great strength to rival Naga. That would be a good call. Except the only other dragon remotely possible to be a Divine Dragon was Forseti, and he's stated to be the youngest, which would naturally mean he's the weaker of them. So that would mean that Loptyr was facing 11 dragons that were all weaker than him, and it was only Naga that posed a challenge, though it wasn't that much of a challenge given that Loptyr showed a lot of desperation through Julius to have Julia killed, since he knew that if she got Naga's tome, he was done for.

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