Underrated/Overlooked Fire Emblem Characters?

[Slumber]

2 hours ago, edgelordweeaboo said:

i dont know if i'd even call homer the worst of the sages, my homer capped mgc/skl/spd/lck by level 2 promoted and still had 11 defense and 40 hp, although i did scroll abuse a little bit so that might be what's making the difference. just scroll abused him because i love homer and wanted to make sure he'd be a god

That's not unusual, even with scrolls.

If you go with raw stats, Homer's got the edge over every other Sage. He's got bulk over every single one of them, and the only stat where he loses is strength, which is useless for pure-Magic classes in FE5. You can promote Homer at level 10, and he'll cap all of his important stats and average 40HP and 10 defense, which every single other Sage struggles to reach at 20/20.

It's more or less everything else that comes into question. Ced, obviously, gets the most OP weapon in the game. Asvel and Linoan get very powerful personal weapons. Sara has the best skills. Linoan and Sara are also great staff units. Homer, meanwhile, is the beefiest of them, and the best to scroll abuse due to Elite, because he really only needs extra defense and move, which you get the scroll for in his recruitment chapter. Sara is also a good scroll abuse candidate due to ALSO having Elite, but she needs more than the Dain scroll to become a wrecking ball. She badly needs help with HP on top of Defense and Move.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Slumber

[Luis Liberato]

I feel that Renault doesn't get much attention due to him joining your party in the third last chapter so it can be hard to get his supports but they are some of my favorites like his support with Isadora and other supports give some nice backstory to the game and him as well

[Cowazon]

Since Im all about Fates, figure id chime in with my favourite underrated picks from BR/CQ:

From birthright I nominate Izana for being able to grab a brave tome (snek spirit i believe its called?) and kill garon on turn1 with his absurd innate lod/spendthrift/tomefaire. Special shootouts to Shura who somehow provided better movement rigging by existing as a 9 move sneakypony rather than being converted to a pair of boots.

 

From conquest, definitely mozu for doing the exact same thing as BR Izana to garon only at 100% hitrates (and quickdraw!!). At the mere cost of an early heart seal shes an amazing bow user on a route that heavily rewards you for riding around at 8 move shooting ninja in the face. Can also let arthur ride her to grab 3 crazy skills off an archer dip to further increase his oneshotting the world. Mozu4mvp

[Shadow Mir]

On January 11, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Cowazon said:

Since Im all about Fates, figure id chime in with my favourite underrated picks from BR/CQ:

From birthright I nominate Izana for being able to grab a brave tome (snek spirit i believe its called?) and kill garon on turn1 with his absurd innate lod/spendthrift/tomefaire. Special shootouts to Shura who somehow provided better movement rigging by existing as a 9 move sneakypony rather than being converted to a pair of boots.

 

From conquest, definitely mozu for doing the exact same thing as BR Izana to garon only at 100% hitrates (and quickdraw!!). At the mere cost of an early heart seal shes an amazing bow user on a route that heavily rewards you for riding around at 8 move shooting ninja in the face. Can also let arthur ride her to grab 3 crazy skills off an archer dip to further increase his oneshotting the world. Mozu4mvp

What difficulty is this on? Because I'd call bullshit if this was on anything over Normal (Dragon Garon, which I'm assuming you're talking about, has 78 HP (80 on Lunatic), 32 speed, and 30 resistance on Hard). One-rounding that sounds like quite a tall order (This would need 70 ATK with 37 speed to happen)... Especially with Snake Spirit's awful accuracy and power. And on top of this, we're using THREE level 15 skills... in a game where unless you're one of three specific characters, you're not seeing level 15 skills until late enough that you're getting very little mileage out of them... Yeah, no. I definitely am going to call bullshit on this. 

There might be more truth in this one than in your Izana hype, but that's saying very little. All the same, however, I see more wild claims that I don't think stack up. And the issue is, once again, the over-dependence on level 15 skills. Anyway, Garon has 33 Def (after terrain) and 70 HP on Hard.

[Cowazon]

On 1/19/2018 at 8:49 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

What difficulty is this on? Because I'd call bullshit if this was on anything over Normal (Dragon Garon, which I'm assuming you're talking about, has 78 HP (80 on Lunatic), 32 speed, and 30 resistance on Hard). One-rounding that sounds like quite a tall order (This would need 70 ATK with 37 speed to happen)... Especially with Snake Spirit's awful accuracy and power. And on top of this, we're using THREE level 15 skills... in a game where unless you're one of three specific characters, you're not seeing level 15 skills until late enough that you're getting very little mileage out of them... Yeah, no. I definitely am going to call bullshit on this. 

There might be more truth in this one than in your Izana hype, but that's saying very little. All the same, however, I see more wild claims that I don't think stack up. And the issue is, once again, the over-dependence on level 15 skills. Anyway, Garon has 33 Def (after terrain) and 70 HP on Hard.

 

https://imgur.com/a/JV2jR

Both of these are obviously on Lunatic, anything under that is a joke anyways. What Mozu does is pretty obvious, it's no secret that damage stack + brave weapons put out insane damage. It might not be sorc/berserker-tier damage, but having perfect hit and tending to hit caps without too many boosters (thanks aptitude) is pretty useful. I would say Izana is the harder of the 2 to push to that point because his personal skill doesn't immediately suggest he'd be a zerk/sorc level boss killer, but he still demolishes what the rest of the BR cast can simply by being one of the 2 (other is Corrin) who can use a brave weapon and having an ideal skillset for it (natural LoD + Spendthrift + Faire).

 

As far as specifics, Izana does take a bit of resources to get to that point, since he needs to pass through a lot of classes for LOD/Spednthrift/Faire, but BR is so easy that it's not like you really need ANY resources besides the Raijinto, so you could just funnel everything into Izana and still cruise through the game. That particular run I got Midori, Caledori and Rhajat for the sheer fun of it, and still had a bunch of other child paralogues leftover even after I was done with getting Izana to 20. Could have easily burned an eternal seal and fed him more XP to cap stats but I was too lazy and just burned boosters instead. As far as his accuracy goes...I would say 96 isn't awful. Obviously you can't get that on the first map since you need a high move pass (Shura in my case) to 1 turn, so you can't have others around Izana to provide more hit, but I was still hitting 80s on there. If I bothered to make a Bow Knight Corrin pairup instead, I could push that way higher. All things considered, I kind of slacked on his investment that run and it was still enough to get there. C-rank +Str Swordmaster Corrin (lol why did I do that) is obviously not as good a pair-up as +Mag Onmyoji Corrin, and having more than 0 +Mag or +Skl statues would have helped too. But like I said, damage stack + brave is so good that even Izana can do it in BR with a garbage (for a brave anyway) weapon like Snake Spirit and make it work.

Mozu is even easier to get there than Izana since you get her early game and can take her through some of her pre-req skills pretty early compared to him. Also, she caps str/skl/spd pretty consistently without investment thanks to aptitude, so it's a lot easier on the resources compared to Izana. It's not in the screenshot dump since I forgot to take one of Garon but she's showing 20x4 @ 100hit 2crit on him and gets hit back for 31 @ 70%. In my 1 turn setup she has a pass falco pairup and access to only 1 rally (Izana because otherwise Garon shows 2% crit). Garon is still easier to kill than Takumi because hitting 20x4 is easier than 25x3.

 

I don't understand why you seem to doubt these benchmarks can be hit by stacking damage skills and swinging a brave weapon. LoD + Spendthrift + Faire is already +25. Rallies and weapon MT already push that above 35. Pair-up and tonics should get you to at least 40. And even Mozu's abysmal Sniper cap of 30-something Str is enough to already blast through that 70 you seem to think is so hard to hit. Keep in mind we're still talking about Snipers and Onmyoji, both of which are put to shame by their Sorc and Berserker counterparts.

[Shadow Mir]

11 hours ago, Cowazon said:

 

https://imgur.com/a/JV2jR

Both of these are obviously on Lunatic, anything under that is a joke anyways. What Mozu does is pretty obvious, it's no secret that damage stack + brave weapons put out insane damage. It might not be sorc/berserker-tier damage, but having perfect hit and tending to hit caps without too many boosters (thanks aptitude) is pretty useful. I would say Izana is the harder of the 2 to push to that point because his personal skill doesn't immediately suggest he'd be a zerk/sorc level boss killer, but he still demolishes what the rest of the BR cast can simply by being one of the 2 (other is Corrin) who can use a brave weapon and having an ideal skillset for it (natural LoD + Spendthrift + Faire).

 

As far as specifics, Izana does take a bit of resources to get to that point, since he needs to pass through a lot of classes for LOD/Spednthrift/Faire, but BR is so easy that it's not like you really need ANY resources besides the Raijinto, so you could just funnel everything into Izana and still cruise through the game. That particular run I got Midori, Caledori and Rhajat for the sheer fun of it, and still had a bunch of other child paralogues leftover even after I was done with getting Izana to 20. Could have easily burned an eternal seal and fed him more XP to cap stats but I was too lazy and just burned boosters instead. As far as his accuracy goes...I would say 96 isn't awful. Obviously you can't get that on the first map since you need a high move pass (Shura in my case) to 1 turn, so you can't have others around Izana to provide more hit, but I was still hitting 80s on there. If I bothered to make a Bow Knight Corrin pairup instead, I could push that way higher. All things considered, I kind of slacked on his investment that run and it was still enough to get there. C-rank +Str Swordmaster Corrin (lol why did I do that) is obviously not as good a pair-up as +Mag Onmyoji Corrin, and having more than 0 +Mag or +Skl statues would have helped too. But like I said, damage stack + brave is so good that even Izana can do it in BR with a garbage (for a brave anyway) weapon like Snake Spirit and make it work.

Mozu is even easier to get there than Izana since you get her early game and can take her through some of her pre-req skills pretty early compared to him. Also, she caps str/skl/spd pretty consistently without investment thanks to aptitude, so it's a lot easier on the resources compared to Izana. It's not in the screenshot dump since I forgot to take one of Garon but she's showing 20x4 @ 100hit 2crit on him and gets hit back for 31 @ 70%. In my 1 turn setup she has a pass falco pairup and access to only 1 rally (Izana because otherwise Garon shows 2% crit). Garon is still easier to kill than Takumi because hitting 20x4 is easier than 25x3.

 

I don't understand why you seem to doubt these benchmarks can be hit by stacking damage skills and swinging a brave weapon. LoD + Spendthrift + Faire is already +25. Rallies and weapon MT already push that above 35. Pair-up and tonics should get you to at least 40. And even Mozu's abysmal Sniper cap of 30-something Str is enough to already blast through that 70 you seem to think is so hard to hit. Keep in mind we're still talking about Snipers and Onmyoji, both of which are put to shame by their Sorc and Berserker counterparts.

There's no difference between difficulties for Garon's stats, other than 2 more HP on Dragon Garon. Anyways, my doubts are because, to be blunt, I'm not so trusting as to take these claims at face value. Especially when they require THREE level 15 skills... in a game where unless your name is Felicia or Jakob, level 15 skills come so late that having more than 2 is a VERY tall order. Let's not forget the part where Izana has to spend at least 8 levels in physical classes for those skills... 8 levels that he has to spend using physical weapons, having to dig his way out of E ranks in the meantime. Trying to get skills from a physical class with a magically oriented unit is not exactly something that I want to be doing that late in the game. And I see you stayed hush-hush about Snake Spirit's ass accuracy. As for rallies, who am I going to be using for Rally Magic? Hayato, who comes underleveled? Orochi, who's slow as molasses?? Rhajat, who requires using Hayato to even exist? WRT statues, that's assuming that I use the units who give those statues for long enough to get gold, which isn't very likely when most of them are lackluster. Mozu does have it easier, which I implied in my last post, but there's still the need for 3 level 15 skills, which I'm not going to downplay for reasons mentioned earlier. And this is also dependent on using someone who I see as the worst unit in Conquest, AKA Arthur...

Edited January 31, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Cowazon]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Anyways, my doubts are because, to be blunt, I'm not so trusting as to take these claims at face value. Especially when they require THREE level 15 skills... in a game where unless your name is Felicia or Jakob, level 15 skills come so late that having more than 2 is a VERY tall order.

It's Birthright... its so easy you can cruise through it while feeding a million XP to whatever goofy characters you want. And yes, the skills come late, it's a setup meant to accomplish one thing (one turning both the final maps), not going through the main game.

Let's not forget the part where Izana has to spend at least 8 levels in physical classes for those skills... 8 levels that he has to spend using physical weapons, having to dig his way out of E ranks in the meantime. Trying to get skills from a physical class with a magically oriented unit is not exactly something that I want to be doing that late in the game.

No need to overcomplicate a simple EXP feeding. He needs to swing an E-rank weapon twice a turn in attack stance with a real attacker at an enemy that was weakened on enemy phase. He can do this with 0 damage and 0% hit and still get 2 easy kills a turn on high-level enemies for an easy time to 20. Whole process can even be done on kid paralogues right before the last chapter, most of them are easy enough on Birthright.

And I see you stayed hush-hush about Snake Spirit's ass accuracy.

Yep, I really tried to slip that one by you when I...provided a screenshot showing 96% hit? Very sneaky indeed.

As for rallies, who am I going to be using for Rally Magic? Hayato, who comes underleveled? Orochi, who's slow as molasses?? Rhajat, who requires using Hayato to even exist? WRT statues, that's assuming that I use the units who give those statues for long enough to get gold, which isn't very likely when most of them are lackluster.

It's Birthright...pick anyone, it's not like the route is difficult enough that you can't get away with using any of those choices. I personally used Sakura for the ease of being a flying staffbot that has natural access to Magic/Speed/Luck. I only brought up statues to illustrate that Izana DOES have the stats to get the kill WITHOUT them, showing that the setup works without any restrictions on pairings/characters used.

Mozu does have it easier, which I implied in my last post, but there's still the need for 3 level 15 skills, which I'm not going to downplay for reasons mentioned earlier. And this is also dependent on using someone who I see as the worst unit in Conquest, AKA Arthur...

Mozu promotes to Sniper, either stays a Sniper till 3rd shop opens up or changes to Kinshi after picking up Certain Blow and is a great combat unit throughout Conquest. She is only missing 6 levels of skills (Bowfaire, Underdog, Seal Str, Line of Death, Profiteer, Spendthrift) for the bosskill setup, only 3 of which need to be obtained at 15+. That's all easily obtainable feeding her child paralogues whenever you feel like it. Your personal hatred for Arthur aside, I only mentioned him as a huge potential upside for using Mozu (Quickdraw and Certain Blow make him particularly destructive), but Mozu's setup isn't dependant on any partner, she comes with all the classes she needs naturally.

If you go really slow and don't care for turncount, you can use a defensive setup and probably get both Izana and Mozu's skill grind done on just Kana's paralogue.

 

[Shadow Mir]

Goddesses, did you REALLY need to make it hard for me to reply to your points...?

[Jotari]

There's nothing particularly difficult about getting a bunch of level 15 skills on one unit. It just involves a copious amount of Second Seals, which isn't all that hard to come by if you're playing favouritism (or simply using DLC). Buying in skills you got on a previous playthrough from the log book is also more than possible. Of course one might claim log book or DLC is cheating but then... what would you even be arguing about?

Edited January 31, 2018 by Jotari

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

There's nothing particularly difficult about getting a bunch of level 15 skills on one unit. It just involves a copious amount of Second Seals, which isn't all that hard to come by if you're playing favouritism (or simply using DLC). Buying in skills you got on a previous playthrough from the log book is also more than possible. Of course one might claim log book or DLC is cheating but then... what would you even be arguing about?

The thing about buying skills is that it can dramatically skew unit usefulness - just what reason would there be to use Ryoma if I had Hana with Swordfaire, Armored Blow, and HP +5 long before he came along??

2 hours ago, Cowazon said:

It's Birthright... its so easy you can cruise through it while feeding a million XP to whatever goofy characters you want. And yes, the skills come late, it's a setup meant to accomplish one thing (one turning both the final maps), not going through the main game.

Birthright being easy doesn't mean much of anything, as far as I'm concerned - I'd still want to avoid units that obviously don't show much in the way of promise and/or are far more trouble than they're worth. What's more, I must question the merits of such a setup when it mostly likely needs grinding, and maybe an extremely pricey Eternal Seal, to get all of the components. Also, let's not forget that Izana's personal skill is an active detriment to the team...

2 hours ago, Cowazon said:

No need to overcomplicate a simple EXP feeding. He needs to swing an E-rank weapon twice a turn in attack stance with a real attacker at an enemy that was weakened on enemy phase. He can do this with 0 damage and 0% hit and still get 2 easy kills a turn on high-level enemies for an easy time to 20. Whole process can even be done on kid paralogues right before the last chapter, most of them are easy enough on Birthright.

I'm not overcomplicating anything - you're oversimplifying, if anything.

2 hours ago, Cowazon said:

Yep, I really tried to slip that one by you when I...provided a screenshot showing 96% hit? Very sneaky indeed.

A screenshot is one thing. Telling me how you'd address Snake Spirit's iffy hit is another. By the way, it's not just Snake Spirit I have issue with - it's all brave weapons. I don't think they're worth dealing with the accuracy, and in the case of the melee weapons, the defense drops.

2 hours ago, Cowazon said:

It's Birthright...pick anyone, it's not like the route is difficult enough that you can't get away with using any of those choices. I personally used Sakura for the ease of being a flying staffbot that has natural access to Magic/Speed/Luck. I only brought up statues to illustrate that Izana DOES have the stats to get the kill WITHOUT them, showing that the setup works without any restrictions on pairings/characters used.

Could you give me any more of a non-answer than this...? Geez, Louise. Anyways, I think I could do better than to build a unit around being a rallybot - and it's not that I don't think rallies are useful, it's more that I don't see it as worth it.

2 hours ago, Cowazon said:

Mozu promotes to Sniper, either stays a Sniper till 3rd shop opens up or changes to Kinshi after picking up Certain Blow and is a great combat unit throughout Conquest. She is only missing 6 levels of skills (Bowfaire, Underdog, Seal Str, Line of Death, Profiteer, Spendthrift) for the bosskill setup, only 3 of which need to be obtained at 15+. That's all easily obtainable feeding her child paralogues whenever you feel like it. Your personal hatred for Arthur aside, I only mentioned him as a huge potential upside for using Mozu (Quickdraw and Certain Blow make him particularly destructive), but Mozu's setup isn't dependant on any partner, she comes with all the classes she needs naturally.

If you go really slow and don't care for turncount, you can use a defensive setup and probably get both Izana and Mozu's skill grind done on just Kana's paralogue.

You have some good points there, I'll admit. Anyway, my comment regarding Arthur has more to do with the fact that I see him as an active detriment to the team - his nonexistent crit evade means that should the RNG feel like giving you the middle finger, he drops faster than a Shedinja that entered into Stealth Rock or Spikes, or took a hit from any Flying, Rock, Fire, Ghost, or Dark attack. Also, I prefer to do the paralogues before chapter 19 - I think waiting for them is more headache than it's worth... BTW, you're addressing someone who thinks Berserkers are the worst class in Fates.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Jotari]

18 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The thing about buying skills is that it can dramatically skew unit usefulness - just what reason would there be to use Ryoma if I had Hana with Swordfaire, Armored Blow, and HP +5 long before he came along??

No reason (well aside from Ranjito being better than anything Hana can equip), but if you really like Hana then you can do it.

[Cowazon]

On 1/31/2018 at 5:26 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The thing about buying skills is that it can dramatically skew unit usefulness - just what reason would there be to use Ryoma if I had Hana with Swordfaire, Armored Blow, and HP +5 long before he came along??

Strongly agree with you on this, buying skills should never be considered in any serious discussion about units because it breaks the game in silly ways. Like @Jotari said, there really isn't much you could give Hana that isn't put to shame by the Raijinto. On that subject, I also believe DLC and bonus gifts like the dread fighter scroll have no place in said discussion since they're way too good on anyone, although not quite as broken as skill buying.

Birthright being easy doesn't mean much of anything, as far as I'm concerned - I'd still want to avoid units that obviously don't show much in the way of promise and/or are far more trouble than they're worth. What's more, I must question the merits of such a setup when it mostly likely needs grinding, and maybe an extremely pricey Eternal Seal, to get all of the components. Also, let's not forget that Izana's personal skill is an active detriment to the team...

My point was simply that you don't need 100% of the resources that Birthright throws at you to manage to complete it, even on Lunatic. On that playthrough, I got 2 children (Rhajat has not gained a single level, her map was the main grind spot for Izana, and Caledori I used as a better looking copy of Hinoka because I got annoyed by her short hair) and still have 4 other child paralogues worth of maps saved up if I wanted to get even more units levelled. I was ready to sell off some useless junk to buy 1 or 2 Eternal Seals but it was overkill and would serve no purpose since Izana already got the skills he needed and capped the relevant stats (with boosters). Also agree with you on his personal skill being an active detriment to the team...that's why I literally only built him for the last 2 chapters and he didnt see use outside those and the paralogue he was levelled on. That being said, being able to 1 turn both forms of Garon is something I WOULD consider a relevant niche...pretty much only Corrin can do it without the Snake Spirit (and relying on procs has a much lower chance of success than landing all 4 brave hits). Is it necessary to beat the game? Absolutely not. Is it a fun way to push a character to do something cool and unique? I thought so, which is why I did it!

A screenshot is one thing. Telling me how you'd address Snake Spirit's iffy hit is another. By the way, it's not just Snake Spirit I have issue with - it's all brave weapons. I don't think they're worth dealing with the accuracy, and in the case of the melee weapons, the defense drops.

If you look at the details of those screenshots it basically tells the entire story of how to push accuracy to make up for the tome's garbage base. Capped skill, capped luck, rally luck, Potent Potion, pair-up stats, 2 surrounding partners all help to push stats high enough to turn that 60 accuracy into a 96. Forcing Shura to rally skill for him would easily turn that into 100 but I couldnt be bothered. If you can get Snake Spirit to hit 100% on a boss without Certain Blow, then you can do it with the other Braves since they're all more accurate. As far as the defense drop on melee weapons, while a bit off topic, I will point out that brave weapons are meant to be delete buttons that you point at something and watch it turn to dust. I mean, you can try to pretend they're a Guard Naginata or Nosferatu Tome and sit there on enemy phase against entire packs of enemies, but they'll never perform well in those conditions.

Could you give me any more of a non-answer than this...? Geez, Louise. Anyways, I think I could do better than to build a unit around being a rallybot - and it's not that I don't think rallies are useful, it's more that I don't see it as worth it.

I guess I should have made it clearer...use anyone you want. Anyone that can learn Rally Magic will be useful on Birthright where you're missing the luxury that is Rallyman. I explained my choice in Sakura as one of convenience, she was useful all game and ended up with 3 rally skills on a flyer. Nobody besides Azura could even come close to the utility she provided as a bird with 3 rallies, a moderately aura, and staff usage. Hayato's low level can be worked around by his personal skill and attack stance. Orochi...I guess just attack stance can help her (I really hate her to be honest, but she's still usable). If you don't like any one of those units, you can Master Seal them immediately and marry them off as soon as they pick up Rally Magic to have a better combat unit take their place. It's not like you have to use them the whole game, a level 5 benchwarmer/pairup bot can easily just come back for 1 map at the end of the game to provide a buff.

 

As far as Izana is concerned, all this was just a fun setup to push the limits of what can and can't be done in Birthright, I am not arguing that it's necessary to beat that route, or even close to optimal. That said...I am convinced that Izana really CAN do something special when it comes to one shotting both forms of Garon. Corrin's the only one of the cast who can hope to do it without the Snake Spirit, and hitting the procs to get both kills is way less likely than landing all the brave hits. And while Corrin *can* replicate the same skill setup to stack the damage high enough to do the same thing with the Snake Spirit, it requires jumping through hoops to get the skills that Izana can without any specific marriage/A+ supports. Also, Izana not being Corrin means he can abuse Corrin's personal skill when paired up, which is something that Corrin simply can't do.

While Mozu's contributions to 1 shotting both Garon/Takumi on Conquest are not unique on the route that gives you access to ALL THE BRAVE WEAPONS and a cast full of offensive powerhouses to take advantage of them, being able to do it at 100% accuracy without any planned out marriage/A+ partner is something unique to her. Being the only natural Archer on the route and being able to pass out Certain Blow definitely counts for something, especially since (as you pointed out earlier) the main problem with brave weapons is they have lower accuracy. Unlike Izana, I consider Mozu to be a solid character through the whole game, and fully worth the investment of that crucial early Heart Seal. She can fly around on a bird and shoot a bow with some ridiculous offensive stats...on the route that heavily rewards you for both flying around and being able to use a bow.

Izana I consider underrated just for doing some cool, but still unnecessary stuff. One turning Birthright's last 2 maps is hardly necessary, the first one isn't particularly difficult and the second you start close enough to make it easy for just about any army you bring through there to 1 turn it. On the other hand, Mozu's contributions to the entire Conquest campaign are huge, and 1 turning THOSE last maps is way more relevant. I personally have only ever cleared Endgame once by slugging it out and forcing my way to Takumi through those Inevitable End maids, and can find no compelling reason to ever repeat that experience. I am also sure that I am not the only one with this opinion, and am genuinely curious if anybody on this board actively PREFERS slugging it out on that map rather than rescuing a bosskiller. I realize that Mozu is far from the only one who can do this, and might not even be the most optimal/practical, but she still CAN do it. On top of her contributions to the main game, I'm always surprised why people seem to rate her so poorly when discussing Conquest characters.

 

 

[Shadow Mir]

On 2/3/2018 at 2:06 AM, Cowazon said:

My point was simply that you don't need 100% of the resources that Birthright throws at you to manage to complete it, even on Lunatic. On that playthrough, I got 2 children (Rhajat has not gained a single level, her map was the main grind spot for Izana, and Caledori I used as a better looking copy of Hinoka because I got annoyed by her short hair) and still have 4 other child paralogues worth of maps saved up if I wanted to get even more units levelled. I was ready to sell off some useless junk to buy 1 or 2 Eternal Seals but it was overkill and would serve no purpose since Izana already got the skills he needed and capped the relevant stats (with boosters). Also agree with you on his personal skill being an active detriment to the team...that's why I literally only built him for the last 2 chapters and he didnt see use outside those and the paralogue he was levelled on. That being said, being able to 1 turn both forms of Garon is something I WOULD consider a relevant niche...pretty much only Corrin can do it without the Snake Spirit (and relying on procs has a much lower chance of success than landing all 4 brave hits). Is it necessary to beat the game? Absolutely not. Is it a fun way to push a character to do something cool and unique? I thought so, which is why I did it!

Far as I'm concerned, unique != useful. Anyways, did you recruit him straight away or did you delay? Not that it'd matter since either way, I still have to go out of my way to get all the skills since I usually don't see level 15 skills picked up until endgame is right around the corner.

On 2/3/2018 at 2:06 AM, Cowazon said:

If you look at the details of those screenshots it basically tells the entire story of how to push accuracy to make up for the tome's garbage base. Capped skill, capped luck, rally luck, Potent Potion, pair-up stats, 2 surrounding partners all help to push stats high enough to turn that 60 accuracy into a 96. Forcing Shura to rally skill for him would easily turn that into 100 but I couldnt be bothered. If you can get Snake Spirit to hit 100% on a boss without Certain Blow, then you can do it with the other Braves since they're all more accurate. As far as the defense drop on melee weapons, while a bit off topic, I will point out that brave weapons are meant to be delete buttons that you point at something and watch it turn to dust. I mean, you can try to pretend they're a Guard Naginata or Nosferatu Tome and sit there on enemy phase against entire packs of enemies, but they'll never perform well in those conditions.

I think this is more a case of "tell, don't show" - a screenshot by itself doesn't really make for a convincing argument imo. Also, other than the Brave Sword, Soldier's Knife, which is only usable by Mechanists and Master Ninjas, and Lightning, which has a wondrous 1 might, the other braves aren't that much better in the accuracy department (the brave axe is even worse). And I consider the accuracy problematic because a delete button that isn't reliable is no delete button - it's a risk. This especially applies to the melee weapons because should bad luck strike, which is surprisingly often, I find, you're eating a nasty counterattack thanks to the defense drops. And did I mention that the brave weapons are only as strong as unforged iron weapons?

On 2/3/2018 at 2:06 AM, Cowazon said:

I guess I should have made it clearer...use anyone you want. Anyone that can learn Rally Magic will be useful on Birthright where you're missing the luxury that is Rallyman. I explained my choice in Sakura as one of convenience, she was useful all game and ended up with 3 rally skills on a flyer. Nobody besides Azura could even come close to the utility she provided as a bird with 3 rallies, a moderately aura, and staff usage. Hayato's low level can be worked around by his personal skill and attack stance. Orochi...I guess just attack stance can help her (I really hate her to be honest, but she's still usable). If you don't like any one of those units, you can Master Seal them immediately and marry them off as soon as they pick up Rally Magic to have a better combat unit take their place. It's not like you have to use them the whole game, a level 5 benchwarmer/pairup bot can easily just come back for 1 map at the end of the game to provide a buff.

My big issue here is that magic as a whole isn't as good as it was in Awakening. In addition, most of the mages in Fates have some kind of baggage. Long story short, Rally Magic is likely to prove the least useful rally skill.

On 2/3/2018 at 2:06 AM, Cowazon said:

As far as Izana is concerned, all this was just a fun setup to push the limits of what can and can't be done in Birthright, I am not arguing that it's necessary to beat that route, or even close to optimal. That said...I am convinced that Izana really CAN do something special when it comes to one shotting both forms of Garon. Corrin's the only one of the cast who can hope to do it without the Snake Spirit, and hitting the procs to get both kills is way less likely than landing all the brave hits. And while Corrin *can* replicate the same skill setup to stack the damage high enough to do the same thing with the Snake Spirit, it requires jumping through hoops to get the skills that Izana can without any specific marriage/A+ supports. Also, Izana not being Corrin means he can abuse Corrin's personal skill when paired up, which is something that Corrin simply can't do.

While Mozu's contributions to 1 shotting both Garon/Takumi on Conquest are not unique on the route that gives you access to ALL THE BRAVE WEAPONS and a cast full of offensive powerhouses to take advantage of them, being able to do it at 100% accuracy without any planned out marriage/A+ partner is something unique to her. Being the only natural Archer on the route and being able to pass out Certain Blow definitely counts for something, especially since (as you pointed out earlier) the main problem with brave weapons is they have lower accuracy. Unlike Izana, I consider Mozu to be a solid character through the whole game, and fully worth the investment of that crucial early Heart Seal. She can fly around on a bird and shoot a bow with some ridiculous offensive stats...on the route that heavily rewards you for both flying around and being able to use a bow.

Izana I consider underrated just for doing some cool, but still unnecessary stuff. One turning Birthright's last 2 maps is hardly necessary, the first one isn't particularly difficult and the second you start close enough to make it easy for just about any army you bring through there to 1 turn it. On the other hand, Mozu's contributions to the entire Conquest campaign are huge, and 1 turning THOSE last maps is way more relevant. I personally have only ever cleared Endgame once by slugging it out and forcing my way to Takumi through those Inevitable End maids, and can find no compelling reason to ever repeat that experience. I am also sure that I am not the only one with this opinion, and am genuinely curious if anybody on this board actively PREFERS slugging it out on that map rather than rescuing a bosskiller. I realize that Mozu is far from the only one who can do this, and might not even be the most optimal/practical, but she still CAN do it. On top of her contributions to the main game, I'm always surprised why people seem to rate her so poorly when discussing Conquest characters.

The thing is, in the case of normal Garon, you have to be mindful of crit chances that anyone not named Corrin would face. We ARE still talking about a game where dead units are gone for good, after all...

And brave weapons are unreliable for reasons I mentioned earlier. Anyways, the Soldier's Knife probably wouldn't be all that useful since Kaze's hardly fantastic imho... I would also argue that the Brave Axe is in a very bad spot.

Not that I've beaten Conquest on Lunatic, but I'd think chapter 27 is still rather tame. Endgame, on the other hand, I've read horror stories about... but even then, I'd know better than to place all my bets on a plan that requires a very specific skill setup, with three of the skills needed being level 15 skills, and has a pretty high chance of failure (55% chance that Vengeance activates, and if it does, R.I.P. Mozu), considering that failure means I have to redo chapter 27... Anyways, I would say it's precisely BECAUSE Mozu needs that early heart seal that she gets rated so poorly.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Fire Emblem Fan]

After his rank in Heroes CYL this year, I reaffirm my stance that Brom is criminally underrated. 

[Etrurian emperor]

47 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

After his rank in Heroes CYL this year, I reaffirm my stance that Brom is criminally underrated. 

I have a feeling him being fat and ''old'' has a lot to do with that. 

[Fire Emblem Fan]

16 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I have a feeling him being fat and ''old'' has a lot to do with that. 

And that sucks, honestly. And even then, according to that Tellius art book that came out recently, he's just barely middle-aged. But I guess people just want boobs. We have plenty of big-boobed "sexy" popular women in the franchise, it's sad.

[Cowazon]

19 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I think this is more a case of "tell, don't show" - a screenshot by itself doesn't really make for a convincing argument imo. Also, other than the Brave Sword, Soldier's Knife, which is only usable by Mechanists and Master Ninjas, and Lightning, which has a wondrous 1 might, the other braves aren't that much better in the accuracy department (the brave axe is even worse). And I consider the accuracy problematic because a delete button that isn't reliable is no delete button - it's a risk. This especially applies to the melee weapons because should bad luck strike, which is surprisingly often, I find, you're eating a nasty counterattack thanks to the defense drops. And did I mention that the brave weapons are only as strong as unforged iron weapons?

I showed you a screenshot of a 96% on an endgame boss on the hardest difficulty and also explained that it was only due to laziness in going all the way with the setup that I didn't hit the full 100. This is without WTA (read: even more hit%) on a class that is capped at A rank tomes using a weapon with a pitiful 60 hit. As far as the Brave Axe goes, its users tend to achieve even higher hit than Izana could ever dream of (Camilla has innate Heartseeker, Arthur and Beruka both have skill caps and growths that put everybody to shame, on top of access to some other Sorc's Heartseeker aura). Not to mention you can always just run the brave user next to the target(s) and NOT ATTACK while you attack stance off them with a unit who CAN take the counterattack. While viable, it's far from necessary in a game where basically nothing can survive the first 2 brave weapon hits. If you can kill an endgame boss through Dragonskin, I'm having trouble seeing what non-Dragonskin enemies can possibly take that same hit. Random example from that Mozu file is Rallies+Tonic Arthur (who has never reclassed) swinging 24x2 @ 100 hit 40 crit on the Endgame 58 hp Generals. 5 damage off a clean 1 shot on one of the bulkiest enemies in the game means any combination of Elbow Room (innate access from his own class set), an aura of sorts (+3 from Camilla, +2 from any strategist), or a +str pairup (a large chunk of the CQ cast) gets him the 1 shot easily. Any enemy with less bulk (just about EVERYTHING?) simply evaporates. I'd say that's quite a bit better than what an unforged iron weapon can do.

The thing is, in the case of normal Garon, you have to be mindful of crit chances that anyone not named Corrin would face. We ARE still talking about a game where dead units are gone for good, after all...

We are also talking about a game where if you can 1 turn him, a crit death is a 30 second reset and rolling the dice again. On my file, Garon shows 2% crit on Mozu only if I goof and forget to buff Rally Luck. Mozu qualifies as "anyone not named Corrin", right? To further illustrate just how ridiculous your argument of being crittable is...ARTHUR AS A BERSERKER is only showing 11% after buffs. I'm starting to wonder if you've ever actually played this game....

Not that I've beaten Conquest on Lunatic

All sorts of surprised...

but I'd think chapter 27 is still rather tame.

Just a bit ago, you were crying about how dangerous Garon's crit rate is on "anyone not named Corrin", now it's a "rather tame" chapter? Have you at least beaten this chapter on Lunatic? Any chapter on Lunatic?

Endgame, on the other hand, I've read horror stories about... but even then, I'd know better than to place all my bets on a plan that requires a very specific skill setup, with three of the skills needed being level 15 skills

It's hard to make a convincing argument of you "knowing better" when your only experience with the content is reading about it from others. Beat that chapter using whatever setup you think would work best and then come back explain how your "knowing better" at least comes from a shred of experience. I'd mention explicitly to beat it by walking to Takumi rather than one turning it so you can see for yourself why NOBODY wants to ever do that after they've done it once and insists on plans that revolve around specific skillsets to 1 turn it. That would probably be a moot point though, since I doubt you could even figure out how to 1 turn the map.

and has a pretty high chance of failure (55% chance that Vengeance activates, and if it does, R.I.P. Mozu), considering that failure means I have to redo chapter 27...

...you absolutely have to stop pulling "facts" out of thin air and try actually playing the game. Mozu can take that Vengeance easily. She doesn't even need a +def pairup, levelling past 20 to push her HP higher, or any Seraph Robes/Dracoshields to do it. She can take it just fine with a rally and tonics.....

Anyways, I would say it's precisely BECAUSE Mozu needs that early heart seal that she gets rated so poorly.

While I can understand that to some degree, Mozu is a decent choice for the seal mostly because of her offensive power. There are definitely other choices, but they're only better because they either offer even MORE offensive power (think vantagesorc Ophelia literally soloing the game) or don't take such a long section of the earlygame before they become fully licensed murder machines (such as Jakob/Dwyer). However, this would just be a giant waste of everyone's time since your hatred of all offensive-minded strategies would prevent anything productive coming out of that conversation. If I had to take a guess, your playstyle probably involves Effie, Benny, Xander, Dragonstone Corrin and Kana creeping forward while an army of forged Javelins, Tomes, and Silver melee weapons find convoluted ways to finish them off before backing off, healing everyone up over 3 turns, and doing it again until the map is finally clear around turn 50. It would be fascinating to see what someone with your playstyle does with their early seal, so what are YOUR best choices (top3 at least) for those early seals?

 

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, Cowazon said:

Just a bit ago, you were crying about how dangerous Garon's crit rate is on "anyone not named Corrin", now it's a "rather tame" chapter? Have you at least beaten this chapter on Lunatic? Any chapter on Lunatic?

There's not enough enemies in this chapter for me to worry about. Only 22 enemies on Lunatic, and 6 of them are Shrine Maidens that can't attack. The majority of the rest of the enemies are off in side rooms. I'd only really worry about the Lancers and Merchant near Garon, with Spendthrift on all of them, and the Lancers having both Counter and Magicounter. Compare that to what comes right after and what comes before, and you'd have to be blind as a Zubat to not notice the game's clearly holding back - and as I see it, a game like Conquest wouldn't be holding back for no reason. I'd say chapter 27 is one of the rare instances where Birthright clearly beats Conquest in terms of difficulty.

3 hours ago, Cowazon said:

We are also talking about a game where if you can 1 turn him, a crit death is a 30 second reset and rolling the dice again. On my file, Garon shows 2% crit on Mozu only if I goof and forget to buff Rally Luck. Mozu qualifies as "anyone not named Corrin", right? To further illustrate just how ridiculous your argument of being crittable is...ARTHUR AS A BERSERKER is only showing 11% after buffs. I'm starting to wonder if you've ever actually played this game....

You don't earnestly think we'd be here if I hadn't played the game, now do you...?? If you do, then that tells me all I need to know about you... C'mon man. Anyway, with how bad being critted is... I'd rather be safe than sorry.

3 hours ago, Cowazon said:

While I can understand that to some degree, Mozu is a decent choice for the seal mostly because of her offensive power. There are definitely other choices, but they're only better because they either offer even MORE offensive power (think vantagesorc Ophelia literally soloing the game) or don't take such a long section of the earlygame before they become fully licensed murder machines (such as Jakob/Dwyer). However, this would just be a giant waste of everyone's time since your hatred of all offensive-minded strategies would prevent anything productive coming out of that conversation. If I had to take a guess, your playstyle probably involves Effie, Benny, Xander, Dragonstone Corrin and Kana creeping forward while an army of forged Javelins, Tomes, and Silver melee weapons find convoluted ways to finish them off before backing off, healing everyone up over 3 turns, and doing it again until the map is finally clear around turn 50. It would be fascinating to see what someone with your playstyle does with their early seal, so what are YOUR best choices (top3 at least) for those early seals?

Don't assume you know my play style - you know what happens when you assume... Anyway, I'd say that I prefer a defensive play style - after all, they say that haste makes waste. As for heart seals, I'd say that I'd consider Wyvern Lord Camilla, Strategist Felicia, and Paladin Jakob would all be better uses of heart seals.

3 hours ago, Cowazon said:

...you absolutely have to stop pulling "facts" out of thin air and try actually playing the game. Mozu can take that Vengeance easily. She doesn't even need a +def pairup, levelling past 20 to push her HP higher, or any Seraph Robes/Dracoshields to do it. She can take it just fine with a rally and tonics.....

Mozu has 37/27 Hp/Def on average at 20/20 (assuming she was heart sealed right away). She needs help to survive, as iirc Takumi has 51 atk (the game says 48, but his personal skill bumps that up to 51), and 21 crit (again, his personal skill). Even with a pair up, she doesn't have enough crit evade to negate that (I had failed to take this into account, meaning there's an even higher chance of failure than I initially thought). If she's doing 25 damage, then Vengeance will add 25 to that (you're having her use a brave, remember?), and the rest is history, and Mozu along with it.

3 hours ago, Cowazon said:

I showed you a screenshot of a 96% on an endgame boss on the hardest difficulty and also explained that it was only due to laziness in going all the way with the setup that I didn't hit the full 100. This is without WTA (read: even more hit%) on a class that is capped at A rank tomes using a weapon with a pitiful 60 hit. As far as the Brave Axe goes, its users tend to achieve even higher hit than Izana could ever dream of (Camilla has innate Heartseeker, Arthur and Beruka both have skill caps and growths that put everybody to shame, on top of access to some other Sorc's Heartseeker aura). Not to mention you can always just run the brave user next to the target(s) and NOT ATTACK while you attack stance off them with a unit who CAN take the counterattack. While viable, it's far from necessary in a game where basically nothing can survive the first 2 brave weapon hits. If you can kill an endgame boss through Dragonskin, I'm having trouble seeing what non-Dragonskin enemies can possibly take that same hit. Random example from that Mozu file is Rallies+Tonic Arthur (who has never reclassed) swinging 24x2 @ 100 hit 40 crit on the Endgame 58 hp Generals. 5 damage off a clean 1 shot on one of the bulkiest enemies in the game means any combination of Elbow Room (innate access from his own class set), an aura of sorts (+3 from Camilla, +2 from any strategist), or a +str pairup (a large chunk of the CQ cast) gets him the 1 shot easily. Any enemy with less bulk (just about EVERYTHING?) simply evaporates. I'd say that's quite a bit better than what an unforged iron weapon can do.

I could just as easily look at it another way - the fact that I have to go out of my way to address braves' hit problems makes them undesirable in my book. Anyway... Arthur's a massive liability, ESPECIALLY as a Berserker (and he's also just another terribad infantry axe user; I'd know all about that), Beruka is outclassed by Camilla, and I'd have better plans for Camilla, knowing that heart seals are limited for most of the game.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Aut]

Alright so I’m not really part of this conversation but

40 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Mozu has 37/27 Hp/Def on average at 20/20 (assuming she was heart sealed right away). She needs help to survive, as iirc Takumi has 51 atk (the game says 48, but his personal skill bumps that up to 51), and 21 crit (again, his personal skill). Even with a pair up, she doesn't have enough crit evade to negate that (I had failed to take this into account, meaning there's an even higher chance of failure than I initially thought). If she's doing 25 damage, then Vengeance will add 25 to that (you're having her use a brave, remember?), and the rest is history, and Mozu along with it.

It’s really easy to get Takumi to have no crit on Mozu. Pair-up + rally Luck alone give 9 critical avoid, and with a luck tonic gives 11 critical avoid on her own, meaning that she has no chance of being critted if she has 20 luck (I’m fairly certain she has that). On the matter of Vengeance, it really depends on the pair up used, but considering that offensively she should have everything that she needs, she could probably just take a Great Knight with an HP tonic, Def tonic, and Defense rally, and boom she’s not dead. If it bothers you that much you could just give her a robe. Besides unless you iron-man it you could just restart until you get it, considering Ch.27 is fairly easy and it’s a relatively easy setup.

[Shadow Mir]

1 minute ago, Aut said:

Alright so I’m not really part of this conversation but

It’s really easy to get Takumi to have no crit on Mozu. Pair-up + rally Luck alone give 9 critical avoid, and with a luck tonic gives 11 critical avoid on her own, meaning that she has no chance of being critted if she has 20 luck (I’m fairly certain she has that). On the matter of Vengeance, it really depends on the pair up used, but considering that offensively she should have everything that she needs, she could probably just take a Great Knight with an HP tonic, Def tonic, and Defense rally, and boom she’s not dead. If it bothers you that much you could just give her a robe. Besides unless you iron-man it you could just restart until you get it, considering Ch.27 is fairly easy and it’s a relatively easy setup.

Erm, the crit evade formula was altered in Fates - it's luck/2. Ergo, It takes two points of luck to get one point of crit evade.

[Aut]

3 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Erm, the crit evade formula was altered in Fates - it's luck/2. Ergo, It takes two points of luck to get one point of crit evade.

I know that, I was saying that she has 11 crit evade with pair up (automatically gives +5 crit evade in guard stance) rally luck (+8 luck) and a luck tonic (+4 luck). 5 + 4 + 2 = 11 crit evade. So she needs 20 luck to not face crit (she averages 26 so she’ll probably be fine even if she got screwed, 1 point of crit isn’t bringing COS down much at all)

[Aut]

As for an underrated/overlooked character, I find Clive is much better than people give him credit for. If he’s promoted by the time you leave Deliverance HQ and gets a speed fountain, he is legitamately a great combat unit in the next two chapters, basically identical performance to Cav!Kliff if he was promoted, which allows him to be a really useful unit for the rest of the game.

[Shadow Mir]

3 minutes ago, Aut said:

I know that, I was saying that she has 11 crit evade with pair up (automatically gives +5 crit evade in guard stance) rally luck (+8 luck) and a luck tonic (+4 luck). 5 + 4 + 2 = 11 crit evade. So she needs 20 luck to not face crit (she averages 26 so she’ll probably be fine even if she got screwed, 1 point of crit isn’t bringing COS down much at all)

Except Rally Luck is only available on Izana, who isn't that great... (Ignoring Corrin for obvious reasons, as well as captured units)

[Aut]

1 minute ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Except Rally Luck is only available on Izana, who isn't that great... (Ignoring Corrin for obvious reasons, as well as captured units)

He’s free and if you’re skipping the final chapter you don’t exactly have anyone better to bring (you get like 16 unit slots and you only need like 5 of them to get your boss killer to the Final boss.

[Cowazon]

45 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Anyway, with how bad being critted is... I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Its funny how you quoted me and then posted this as if you never even read my response. What exactly is unsafe about facing a 0% crit chance?

Mozu has 37/27 Hp/Def on average at 20/20 (assuming she was heart sealed right away). She needs help to survive, as iirc Takumi has 51 atk (the game says 48, but his personal skill bumps that up to 51), and 21 crit (again, his personal skill). Even with a pair up, she doesn't have enough crit evade to negate that (I had failed to take this into account, meaning there's an even higher chance of failure than I initially thought). If she's doing 25 damage, then Vengeance will add 25 to that (you're having her use a brave, remember?), and the rest is history, and Mozu along with it.

Just keep ignoring my points and simple addition for that matter. Try adding 11 (rally + tonics) to her effective hp and then telling me she cant take the hit. Ive seen her take it and live. And once again on the crit...I POSTED A SCREENSHOT WITH 0% CRIT DISPLAYED. Pairup, tonic, and rally luck really are enough...

All this boils down to the same problem of you either not understanding simple math and/or refusing to use rallies and tonics. Challenge runs are fun and all but theres very little point in restrictions like that when the game is already too challenging for you to finish even with using them.

 

@Aut agree 100% on clive being solid, i didnt dump any fountains into him to see what his offenses look like, and when mathilda came along i was happy for that. Despite that he still put in work just being a tanky mounted unit who ended up serving as great utility later on with swap to set up better movement for warps. Having great early use and still keeping some utility isnt bad in a game with infinite deployment slots. You dont need alm level combat to justify a slot, and even when his combat falls off later, hes still a shove/swap, could pull and tank stray mobs, and even provide chip damage when needed. Just goes to show how good an early join time is.