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The word "Echoes" and "series of remakes" notion


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Being one of the well known Japanese speakers in the community, I just wanted to bring up a semi-popular notion by the community regarding remakes and their choice of title "Echoes" for FE15.

While the notion of "Fire Emblem Echoes" as being a subtitle hinting at future remakes isn't *the* go to thing, it comes up often enough around places.

Personally speaking, it kind of annoys me time and again that many things like this happen every time an FE game releases. I feel like the old man veteran saying: "Get off my lawn"! These include:

* People yelling at me when I got a JP copy of Awakening early and tell people there's no direct PvP. They say the localized edition will change that.

* Fates: Too many. Including face petting and translation "errors".

 

As a Japanese speaker, I understand that English words are commonplace in the variety of Japanese games I played. They're there for exotic feel, especially in titles.

The word "Echoes" is just that. And to tie into the Japanese title "Another Hero King". It could be arguable that the localized title, "Shadows of Valentia" is the same way.

It has also been used in English promotional material of the people seeing the "Echoes of War" in a Nintendo trailer for the game.

 

No one in the Japanese community has ever interpreted the title to be a label of a remake. That the "Echo" of an original is that said remake.

 

The point is, it's a strictly English notion. And IS being a Japanese company, and the original version being tailored to Japanese fans to be later localized (Unlike Pokemon, which is pretty much global at this point. They changed JP characters to an ambiguous generic language), it would be a stretch to say that they gave it a subtitle as a first of a sub series of Fire Emblem as people imagine FE4 remakes a la "Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Jugdral".

 

They'll do that as an afterthought, if the notion spreads far enough. But that wasn't what they initially intended, as evidenced by the JP community.

It almost makes me feel that the FE fans doing so are always reaching, until they get a remake for their favorite game. Is it never enough?

Thanks for hearing me out.

Out of respect for people and not being a killjoy in every thread having this notion, I refrained from mentioning it every time. But I guess I just needed to let it out.

[/killjoy]

Edited by shadowofchaos
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If you're assuming that Fire Emblem Echoes isn't going to be or isn't intended to be some kind of subseries, then are you assuming that the name of this game is actually 

Fire Emblem: Echoes Shadows of Valentia (or whatever it translates to in Japanese)?

To me, that's a weird title to assume isn't part of some sort of multi-game series. 

 

It's why I assume it's gonna be a series anyway.

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You have to look at it at the Japanese perspective.

"Echoes" is the fancy English word for the Japanese title もうひとりの英雄王

"Another Hero king".

They do that *A LOT* with JP titles.

So, yes, Elie.

Your response is exactly what I mean with logic and notions from the west.

Like I said, they will do that if the notion gets popular enough.

But it wasn't the first thing Japanese think.

Look at the title for Attack on Titan and how it officially became that in English.

Edited by shadowofchaos
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I always got the feeling that "Echoes" was added in the same context as "Gaiden": it represents a side-story that happened on Archanea's sister continent very shortly after the original War of Shadows. They may well be testing the grounds for more faithful remakes of older games, but I never thought that one word guaranteed anything.

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5 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Look at the title for Attack on Titan and how it officially became that in English.

fwiw I'll need a bit of help here. I'm largely unfamiliar with Attack on Titan and I don't trust my Google Fu.

"Attacking Titan" is what I came up with, and if that's what you mean, I can see the difference in grammar and interpretation.

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I don't know or care if the 'Echos' is the start of a would be line of remakes. I've been referring to the game as Shadows of Valentia(SoV) since it was first shown.

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5 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

I always got the feeling that "Echoes" was added in the same context as "Gaiden": it represents a side-story that happened on Archanea's sister continent very shortly after the original War of Shadows. They may well be testing the grounds for more faithful remakes of older games, but I never thought that one word guaranteed anything.

Just to clarify, Elieson is saying it's weird if you do this for the title:

Fire Emblem: Echoes Shadows of Valentia

The original title is "Fire Emblem: Gaiden"

Fire Emblem: Gaiden - "More Fancy Title"

Fire Emblem: Echoes - Shadows of Valentia

It works.

"Fire Emblem: Echoes" is FE15 title, just as it was "Fire Emblem: Gaiden" for FE2. The "Shadows of Valentia" is the subtitle description of the game.

3 minutes ago, Elieson said:

fwiw I'll need a bit of help here. I'm largely unfamiliar with Attack on Titan and I don't trust my Google Fu.

"Attacking Titan" is what I came up with, and if that's what you mean, I can see the difference in grammar and interpretation.

Shingeki no KyouJin = Advancing Giants

Attack on Titan = Engrish when it was Japanese only

Attack of the Titans = Good localization attempt of the title by a fan I saw somewhere

Attack on Titan became official. And it sounds bad.

Popularity in the west will override things.

Edited by shadowofchaos
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The doesn't just come from the title having "Echoes" in it, it comes from the "Echoes" being part of the "Fire Emblem" title. It's "Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia", not "Fire Emblem: Echoes - Shadows of Valentia".

This makes the "Echoes" part feel like it's something more, distinctly tied to the Fire Emblem series, rather than this specific game, which is Shadows of Valentia.

Somebody had to okay this somewhere down the line on Nintendo's side. It totally could just be a way to pay homage to the original title of "Gaiden", but if it was, "Fire Emblem: Echoes - Shadows of Valentia" would have made more sense, like the aforementioned "Fire Emblem: New Mystery of the Emblem ~ Heroes of Light and Shadow ~".

Somebody probably fucked up with the title on Echoes if there really is no direct correlation to the Japanese title.

Edited by Slumber
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11 minutes ago, Slumber said:

The doesn't just come from the title having "Echoes" in it, it comes from the "Echoes" being part of the "Fire Emblem" title. It's "Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia", not "Fire Emblem: Echoes - Shadows of Valentia".

This makes the "Echoes" part feel like it's something more, distinctly tied to the Fire Emblem series, rather than this specific game, which is Shadows of Valentia.

Somebody had to okay this somewhere down the line on Nintendo's side. It totally could just be a way to pay homage to the original title of "Gaiden", but if it was, "Fire Emblem: Echoes - Shadows of Valentia" would have made more sense, like the aforementioned "Fire Emblem: New Mystery of the Emblem ~ Heroes of Light and Shadow ~".

Somebody probably fucked up with the title on Echoes if there really is no direct correlation to the Japanese title.

"Fire Emblem: Gaiden"

"Fire Emblem: Echoes"

There's your meaning.

エコーズ can be the Engrish for 外伝

Fire Emblem: Gaiden, in Japanese, doesn't have "Gaiden" as a subtitle.

It's "Fire Emblem Gaiden".

The "it makes the echoes part feel like something more" only works in English. In Japanese, it's a normal title.

No one has yet to acknowledge why this is a strictly English community notion with the title logic and an explanation for it.

This is why arguments about it irritate me. No one has explained to me how the English logic can stand when no one in this community can make their arguments work for the title in a Japanese perspective.

Edited by shadowofchaos
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20 minutes ago, Iridium said:

"Echoes: Shadows of Valentia" isn't a weirder subtitle than "New Mystery of the Emblem ~ Heroes of Light and Shadow ~", incidentally. 

Just gonna echo this. (Sorry.)

Also, I mentioned this in another topic, but Nintendo of Europe often calls the game just "Fire Emblem Echoes" in advertisements. Doesn't really make sense unless "Echoes" is only for this remake.

Additionally, this is just my opinion but if they wanted to future-proof a series of remakes, they would have gone for a far more obvious name like Fire Emblem Legacy or something. "Echoes" alludes to it somewhat, but it's way too vague for consumers.

Now, I'm not saying there won't be remakes; I am 90% confident there will be more, providing Echoes sells well. Just that the word "Echoes" by itself is far from proof.

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7 minutes ago, Avi448 said:

 A bit weird though it's not called "Fire Emblem: Echoes", it's called "Fire Emblem Echoes:", although "Echoes" possibly being used for remakes later being an afterthought seems reasonable

VincentASM just pretty much said what I was going to say.

In Japanese, it's "ファイアーエムブレム Echoes  もうひとりの英雄王"

The, single game, is always referred to as "Echoes" by itself. When in forums. Via FEエコーズ or エコーズ just as they do with Heroes.

Now, that would cause confusion if it's a subseries to their JP fans. Their initial audience.

Edited by shadowofchaos
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I still think that Echoes is the added title that will be used for future remakes

I'm only making this basis due to how Echoes is in the title "Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia"

where Echoes exists above Shadows of Valentia like how Fire Emblem Fates ("if", for the weeb) has a subtitle Birthright , Conquest, Revelation., I feel that Echoes is going to be used in the title for future remakes. I don't think "Shadows" is going to be in every title

16 minutes ago, VincentASM said:

Also, I mentioned this in another topic, but Nintendo of Europe often calls the game just "Fire Emblem Echoes" in advertisements. Doesn't really make sense unless "Echoes" is only for this remake.

Nintendo of Europe is weird

______________

I'm going to argue with shadowofchaos by saying with the exception of Fire emblem 14 what Japanese title has english words in it, even FE if had a subtitle that was Japanese

Edited by Captain Karnage
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7 minutes ago, Captain Karnage said:

I still think that Echoes is the added title that will be used for future remakes

I'm only making this basis due to how Echoes is in the title "Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia"

where Echoes exists above Shadows of Valentia like how Fire Emblem Fates ("if", for the weeb) has a subtitle Birthright , Conquest, Revelation., I feel that Echoes is going to be used in the title for future remakes. I don't think "Shadows" is going to be in every title

Nintendo of Europe is weird

That notion is what I mean.

The entire thing is based in the placement of the title being weird in English unless "it means something more".

Fire Emblem: Gaiden - "A remake with fancier title"

That's what it looks like to the Japanese.

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6 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

That notion is what I mean.

The entire thing is based in the placement of the title being weird in English unless "it means something more".

Fire Emblem: Gaiden - "A remake with fancier title"

That's what it looks like to the Japanese.

so are we agreeing that Echoes may be a subseries? my brain is a bit fried from school atm

I think Echoes is to mean a call back to the past, like I think that an FE4 remake would be called Fire Emblem Echoes: Blood of Jugdral

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8 minutes ago, Captain Karnage said:

so are we agreeing that Echoes may be a subseries? my brain is a bit fried from school atm

I think Echoes is to mean a call back to the past, like I think that an FE4 remake would be called Fire Emblem Echoes: Blood of Jugdral

No, I'm not.

My point is: "Echoes as a subseries is a western notion. It may turn out that way if it gets popular enough, like how the Attack on Titan title happened."

Echoes doesn't mean anything other than to refer to this one, singular game, to a Japanese person.

As for English titles that literally don't mean anything to the Japanese other than being fancy: look around. My point wasn't strictly towards FE titles.

First example that comes to mind.

"Bravely Default: For the Sequel"

 

I can turn around your point for you with FE14.

"Fire Emblem: If" The singular game.

Fire Emblem: If - Byakuya Oukoku. Description.

Fire Emblem: New Mystery of the Emblem the singular game.

Fire Emblem: New Mystery of the Emblem ~Heroes of Light and Shadow~

Edited by shadowofchaos
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16 minutes ago, Captain Karnage said:

Nintendo of Europe is weird

Nintendo Japan has the bonus soundtrack CD as "Sound Selections: Echoes".

I mean they could call the next CD, "Sound Selections: Echoes 2", but it just seems weird.

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I personally think the word, Echoes, might be the spawn of a sub series. Mainly because in Heroes, the story chapters are divided based on which game the character appear in (with the exception of chapter 5,8, and 9). Each chapter name starting with the the words, "World of", followed typically by a word from the official game title.

Chapter 1 - "World of Mystery" (Fire Emblem: Mystery of the Emblem)
Chapter 2 - "World of Conquest" (Fire Emblem Fates: Conquest)
Chapter 3 - "World of Binding" (Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade)
Chapter 4 - "World of Awakening" (Fire Emblem Awakening)
Chapter 6 - "World of Birthright" (Fire Emblem Fates: Birthright)
Chapter 7 - "World of Blazing" [Fire Emblem (The Blazing Blade)]

When Alm and friends were released on Heroes, their paralogue was titled "World of Shadows" (Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia). However, if Echoes is not the spawn of a sub series, then that paralogue should've been titled "World of Echoes" instead. The only doubt I have is with the prologue, titled "World of Zenith", when I felt it should've been called "World of Heroes". Zenith is the name of the world where Heroes takes place. But if that's the case, you might as well call Alm's paralogue, "World of Valentia".

As such, that's what I'm leaning towards but I ain't gonna jump to conclusions (and I feel a lot of the Western audience should too until we get another remake for confirmation). For simplicity sake, I'm going to refer Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia as 'Fire Emblem Echoes'.

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16 minutes ago, Falcom said:

I personally think the word, Echoes, might be the spawn of a sub series. Mainly because in Heroes, the story chapters are divided based on which game the character appear in (with the exception of chapter 5,8, and 9). Each chapter name starting with the the words, "World of", followed typically by a word from the official game title.

Chapter 1 - "World of Mystery" (Fire Emblem: Mystery of the Emblem)
Chapter 2 - "World of Conquest" (Fire Emblem Fates: Conquest)
Chapter 3 - "World of Binding" (Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade)
Chapter 4 - "World of Awakening" (Fire Emblem Awakening)
Chapter 6 - "World of Birthright" (Fire Emblem Fates: Birthright)
Chapter 7 - "World of Blazing" [Fire Emblem (The Blazing Blade)]

When Alm and friends were released on Heroes, their paralogue was titled "World of Shadows" (Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia). However, if Echoes is not the spawn of a sub series, then that paralogue should've been titled "World of Echoes" instead. The only doubt I have is with the prologue, titled "World of Zenith", when I felt it should've been called "World of Heroes". Zenith is the name of the world where Heroes takes place. But if that's the case, you might as well call Alm's paralogue, "World of Valentia".

As such, that's what I'm leaning towards but I ain't gonna jump to conclusions (and I feel a lot of the Western audience should too until we get another remake for confirmation). For simplicity sake, I'm going to refer Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia as 'Fire Emblem Echoes'.

Just pointing out: it was world of shadows/echoes in Japanese.

The discrepancy you state isn't applicable.

"If Echoes is not the spawn of a sub series, then that paralogue should've been titled World of Echoes".

共鳴の世界

World of Echoes

You just said it yourself.

Again, everyone is sourcing English. That is my main point. All the time.

Edited by shadowofchaos
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8 minutes ago, Falcom said:

I personally think the word, Echoes, might be the spawn of a sub series. Mainly because in Heroes, the story chapters are divided based on which game the character appear in (with the exception of chapter 5,8, and 9). Each chapter name starting with the the words, "World of", followed typically by a word from the official game title.

SoC will probably get to it eventually, but it's called "World of Echoes" in the Japanese version. I am not sure why they changed it in the localisation. Plus it will be really awkward if they ever decide to do Shadow Dragon (although I doubt it since Mystery seems to be the main world).

Oh, nvm, I see SoC just posted : P

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I think we'll have to wait a couple of years to find out if Echoes is a sub series, I think I'm right in that Echoes is the sub-title for the remakes

hell I jokingly called Corrin for smash right before Roy got leaked for smash 4, said I wanted Gaiden to get a remake in my serenes interview 2 or 3 weeks before SoV was announced, and I joined serenes 2 days before Fates was announced.

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2 minutes ago, Captain Karnage said:

I think we'll have to wait a couple of years to find out if Echoes is a sub series, I think I'm right in that Echoes is the sub-title for the remakes

hell I jokingly called Corrin for smash right before Roy got leaked for smash 4, said I wanted Gaiden to get a remake in my serenes interview 2 or 3 weeks before SoV was announced, and I joined serenes 2 days before Fates was announced.

 

I literally called a Gaiden remake jokingly a day before the direct.

Edited by shadowofchaos
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If we compare both Echoes and Fates Japanese titles, stylistically, "Echoes" and "if" are written in English, whilst the secondary titles are written in Japanese. In Fates, this was to showcase that it had different, yet connected, versions, while there's no legitimate reason for Echoes to even be present on the title at all, as ファイアーエムブレム: もうひとりの英雄王 would've sufficed, or hell, even just ファイアーエムブレム: エコーズ. This is what leads me personally to believe that this would be the first in a set of Echoes games, likely remakes, at least in the most hopeful of conditions.

I can definitely see SoC's point, and I'd never say "Echoes being in the title means that every game is getting a remake for certain", but honestly, the only way to truly find out is to just wait and see if the Echoes subtitle ever appears again. I do agree saying that it's concrete evidence is foolish, especially when looking at the linguistic facts.

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