How is Ike the strongest ever, again?

[Zapp Branniglenn]

1 minute ago, JSND said:

But yeah FF is stupid-

Agreed!

[FrostyFireMage]

Spoiler

because he's a giant Gary Stu

 

[Luchi]

1 minute ago, FrostyFireMage said:

  Reveal hidden contents

because he's a giant Gary Stu

 

^This. But try explaining that to his fans. 

[Slumber]

Just now, Luchi said:

^This. But try explaining that to his fans. 

@Anacybele would like to have a word.

[Anacybele]

4 minutes ago, Slumber said:

@Anacybele would like to have a word.

Yeah, Ike's not a Stu though.

[Tamanoir]

4 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, Ike's not a Stu though.

While the term is used negatively, it's mostly true for RD Ike (PoR Ike is on par with every other lord). He is as close as a normal human can be to Superman (or Herakles/Hercules).

He is a true Hero : Someone with exceptional strength and high morals. Someone we'll never truly equals, but that we should tries yo hold up to anyway.

And that's kinda why it's biased from the start. Ike had the "chance" to face a great challenge at his prime. He was mostly at the peak of his power at this point.

[Armagon]

Honestly, the term Gary Stu/Mary Sue has gotten overused to the point where it's lost it's meaning.

A Gary Stu/Mary Sue is someone who is unrealistically perfect and have zero flaws and no struggles.

Mini-medium-sized rant about Gary Stus/Mary Sues incoming (note: i'm grouping flaws and struggles into one catagory)

Spoiler

None of the FE Lords are really Gary Stus/Mary Sues. They all have some flaw. The only Lords that come close to being Gary Stues are Roy, Corrin Sigurd, and even then, they have their flaws. Roy's got an inferiority complex going, mentioned in Lilina and Cecilia's B-Support.

Spoiler

Lilina: General Cecilia, why didn't you teach magic to Roy?

Cecilia: What?

Lilina: When Roy was studying in Ostia, you wouldn't teach him magic at all, no matter how much he asked.

Cecilia: Ah... You're right. I didn't.

Lilina: Why didn't you? You taught it to me a great deal...

Cecilia: That's partly because of you.

Lilina: Because of me?

Cecilia: Right. Roy...you know how he is. If I taught him magic, he would have practiced and practiced to master it.

Lilina: Yes, you're right. But...

Cecilia: You see, practice isn't enough to master a school of magic. You need talent, and that can't be obtained through mere training. What would Roy think if there was a person with that talent right near him? He's working as hard...no, probably even harder than that person, but still he's lagging far behind. What would he feel like?

Honestly, that's probably what Roy's feeling for nearly the entirity of Binding Blade. He's a good fighter, but everyone in his army is much better than him.

As for Sigurd........i can't really think of anything off the top of my head. I didn't really care about Sigurd during my one and only playthrough of FE4. I know the manga made him reckless though, and recklessness is a flaw.

Corrin, for as bad as he's written, still has his flaws. These are most noticable in Birthright and Conquest. In both paths, Corrin fails to save some of his sibilings. In Conquest, Corrin is eventually forced to go along with Garon's evil stuff. And of course, there are the nightmares he's had about the Hoshidians he's killed.

I know people call Micaiah a Mary Sue but i don't know her character properly enough to judge.

Now, just because a character is a Gary Stu/Mary Sue doesn't mean they are a bad character.....at least by default. Heck, Saitama is a Gary Stu but that's also the whole point of One Punch Man, to show what happens when you make the most perfect, overpowered character. A bad Gary Stu/Mary Sue is a character that shows absolutely zero development whatsoever. Because believe it or not, Gary Stus/Mary Sues can still be actual characters. Using Saitama again as an example, Saitama willingly puts himself in the negative spotlight so that the other heroes who got rekt wouldn't get a negative reputation. That's a good Gary Stu. But when a Gary Sue/Mary Sue has no character, that's when it becomes a problem.

And that concludes today's episode of fun rant time with Armagon.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Armagon

[Interdimensional Observer]

7 hours ago, Slumber said:

Even Sin in the grand scheme of things isn't that powerful for an FF villain.

 

You forgot Chaos, he who is eternal.

And also Emperor Palmecia. Palmecia starts on the level of an FE villain, but once he's dead he somehow manages to become Emperor of Heaven and Hell. (Which leads me to ask what he did with the prior rulers- I didn't see Satan and God strolling around through their former cities unemployed.)

The Cloud of Darkness might is sorta a force of nature? Eh, it's on the weaker side. Exdeath I'll add is on the weaker side too given it becomes consumed by the Void it tried to control.

Also, to bring in FF's modern sister BD (GIANT SPOILERS!):

Spoiler

Ouroboros managed to tear a literal rift in the 4th Wall!

 

Getting back on topic now:

2 hours ago, Armagon said:

As for Sigurd........i can't really think of anything off the top of my head.

Does the fact he has no political sense count? If he could smell what was being schemed in Belhalla, he wouldn't have become a candle and the 2nd Generation could have been averted.

Micaiah is at best Miss Perfect for Part 1 only. And even then she screws up at the end of C9 sparing Jarod. In Part 3, she loses those prophetic powers that made her so perfect, and then fruitlessly struggles against the super army of Gallia, Phoenicis, Crimea, part of Begnion, and Ike. All without Senatorial support, while her country is still rebuilding, and without much popular support for her cause. In Part 4, Micaiah's powers return, but they aren't overly emphasized like in Part 1, and she is reduced about half the time to a vessel for Yune.

Micaiah has no formal military training whatsoever as far as we can tell, but somehow manages to lead Daein's military in Part 3. She shows signs of clear inexperience, but I commend her for being able to hold things together at all. 

[Extrasolar]

I think this case is the result of a ton of things, a combination of hype, in-universe reputation, stats and growths, plus story feats.

In both Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn, you have other characters constantly marveling at and praising Ike's strength. His sparring partners are constantly defeated by him, with no real hope of winning.

Even when he's a rookie, he manages to overpower Boyd, who, while also being a rookie, is much more experienced than him and rather strong to boot.

His stats are pretty off the charts, especially in comparison to other lords, who while not really awful, aren't all that spectacular either. Eliwood's about average in all areas unless you get ridiculously blessed, Hector is very strong, but also very slow (unless you get RNG blessed), Lyn is fragile and fast, Marth is roughly all-around, but lacking in defense, etc.

Ike excels in pretty much all areas, save for resistance. Ike's a one-man army even as a low-level unit, plowing through pretty much anyone and anything. People bring up Sigurd and Seliph, and they're undoubtedly strong, but their Holy Blood is a good portion of that. Seliph starts off very shaky, and while Sigurd is strong from the outset when you get him, he's also overexperienced (overleveled) for the units he fights early in the game.

Ike lacks any sort of inherited bloodline or ability -- his Aether is learned.

He defeats the Black Knight, who wears armor blessed by a god and has a godly weapon himself, who's hailed to be the greatest human fighter on Tellius.

In Radiant Dawn, he's the most important mortal on the continent, pretty much. He has to be the one to land the final blow on Ashera to beat the final battle, he is the one who possesses the powered-up Ragnell with enough power to defeat a goddess, and not just any goddess, the creator goddess of their world.

I can definitely see him as being the lord with the most raw power in the series as a result.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Extrasolar

[The Malign Knight]

17 hours ago, Tamanoir said:

Don't forget the Ettard. No special ability or anything. It's just too heavy to be wielded by anyone else.

Alm also killed a god (we could compare Micaiah and Celica's implications in doing so, if we want to get technical, but he's as much a God Slayer as Ike is.) I think he has the best shot at taking Ike's title

Spoiler

Keep in mind that Duma is in the same boat as Loptyr, Grina ans Naga: an extremely powerful dragon that is hailed as a god

17 hours ago, Slumber said:

Tidus is WAAAAAAAAY stronger than Marth. As shitty and lame as Tidus is, the scale of the games are way different.

Sir, you made my emotional status pass from happiness to "how dare you insult one of my favorite FF character"

17 hours ago, Slumber said:

Even Sin in the grand scheme of things isn't that powerful for an FF villain.

Sin - Giant immortal sky whale that threatens the world every 10 years. Basically a suped up Grima.

Compare to

Those stupid things in FFXIII - Actually Gods, with the final boss from LR being the closest thing to the Abrahamic God the series has gotten.

Kuja and Necron - The former actually destroyed an entire world, while the latter is the personification of death itself.

Kefka - God of Magic, absorbed the power of all the Espers, was this close to destroying the world.

Exdeath - A tree with the power to manipulate space and could basically open black holes at will. Likely would have destroyed the world if left alone.

Ultemecia - A sorceress that could completely manipulate time and space, nearly destroyed all existence.

Zeromus - The strengthened, hateful spirit of a nigh-invulnerable telepathic alien.

Even Sephiroth, who's pretty weak in the grand scheme of things, was capable of summoning Meteor, which would have destroyed the world quite easily.

FE is probably closest to Ivalice. But even there, they slay dragons pretty casually.

Kuja was in his trance form however,(which makes him stronger than he normally would be) and even then, Kuja is still defeated by Zidane and co. No comment on Necron: guy just feels so random. Also, even Sin would be able to actually destroy the world, jf he wanted to.

Anyway, I'm not sure if "destroying the world" makes the other villains look better than Sin. Especially because Sin himself, as I said, could have easily destroyed the world(hell, before Tidus and co. arrived and changed things, the only way to defeat him was to make a super powerful aeon)

Also, you forget that Ivalice has things like Ultima and zodiark(who, I remember, was feared even by his creators and was forever cursed to be nothing than some sort-of-fetus, but still has gofly powers)

8 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

You forgot Chaos, he who is eternal.

And also Emperor Palmecia. Palmecia starts on the level of an FE villain, but once he's dead he somehow manages to become Emperor of Heaven and Hell. (Which leads me to ask what he did with the prior rulers- I didn't see Satan and God strolling around through their former cities unemployed.)

The Cloud of Darkness might is sorta a force of nature? Eh, it's on the weaker side. Exdeath I'll add is on the weaker side too given it becomes consumed by the Void it tried to control.

Chaos isn't really powerful since 

Spoiler

The cycle is a malus for him, considering that he cannot escape from it and even then, he gets defeated by 4 random dudes. However, Dissidia!Chaos is definitely more threatening due to being acknowledged as an actual god and having greater powers than most divine FF creatures

The Emperor is...weird: like, he is strong as a human, but It's never explained how he ends up to be the ruler of Hell and Heaven. Some say that he just killed the precedent rulers, which can make you think that perhaps - during the game - he was just holding back.

Anyway, regarding Ike, I think that he is held as the strongest because one of the main points about his character was his strength: Ike's objective, other than to protect Elincia and rhe others in PoR, was to becone a strong fighter - stronger than even his own father. Other lords, instead, tends to be more about how they need to learn to be a ruler, if anything else.

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, The Malign Knight said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Keep in mind that Duma is in the same boat as Loptyr, Grina ans Naga: an extremely powerful dragon that is hailed as a god

Sir, you made my emotional status pass from happiness to "how dare you insult one of my favorite FF character"

Kuja was in his trance form however,(which makes him stronger than he normally would be) and even then, Kuja is still defeated by Zidane and co. No comment on Necron: guy just feels so random. Also, even Sin would be able to actually destroy the world, jf he wanted to.

Anyway, I'm not sure if "destroying the world" makes the other villains look better than Sin. Especially because Sin himself, as I said, could have easily destroyed the world(hell, before Tidus and co. arrived and changed things, the only way to defeat him was to make a super powerful aeon)

Also, you forget that Ivalice has things like Ultima and zodiark(who, I remember, was feared even by his creators and was forever cursed to be nothing than some sort-of-fetus, but still has gofly powers)

Chaos isn't really powerful since 

  Reveal hidden contents

The cycle is a malus for him, considering that he cannot escape from it and even then, he gets defeated by 4 random dudes. However, Dissidia!Chaos is definitely more threatening due to being acknowledged as an actual god and having greater powers than most divine FF creatures

The Emperor is...weird: like, he is strong as a human, but It's never explained how he ends up to be the ruler of Hell and Heaven. Some say that he just killed the precedent rulers, which can make you think that perhaps - during the game - he was just holding back.

Anyway, regarding Ike, I think that he is held as the strongest because one of the main points about his character was his strength: Ike's objective, other than to protect Elincia and rhe others in PoR, was to becone a strong fighter - stronger than even his own father. Other lords, instead, tends to be more about how they need to learn to be a ruler, if anything else.

There's a difference between how Sin could "destroy the world" and how Sephiroth, Kuja and Exdeath could "destroy the world". Sin could wipe out all life on the planet(Eventually). Again, very similar to Grima. Just more developed and consistent. The other three were actually capable of physically destroying the physical planet.

Kuja's Trance is his own power, and while Zidane and co. beat him, Zidane himself was created with the intention to wipe out all life himself. Plus, Kuja actually KILLS Zidane and his party when he goes nuts and destroys the crystal. As far as I know, Kuja's the only villain in the franchise to kill the heroes, even though they come back by literally beating death.

And while Ivalice has things like Ultima and Zodiark, the Ivalice gods are pretty weak. I never got the impression that Ultima or Zodiark could flat out destroy the planet. Like, they could definitely take out any mortal, but I don't think they'd crack the planet.

and I'll insult Tidus whenever I want, thank you very much

Also, while Medeus is a dragon worshiped as a god like Grima and Loptyr, the scale of their powers are quite a bit different.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Slumber

[fangpoint333]

4 hours ago, The Malign Knight said:

Anyway, regarding Ike, I think that he is held as the strongest because one of the main points about his character was his strength: Ike's objective, other than to protect Elincia and rhe others in PoR, was to becone a strong fighter - stronger than even his own father. Other lords, instead, tends to be more about how they need to learn to be a ruler, if anything else.

Yeah, if we ignore final boss power level debates, Ike still stands to reason to be the strongest simply because he's the lord who can devote the most of his time to fighting. Every other FE main character is or becomes a lord of something and would need to spend time coming up with plans, governing, managing, managing a family/harem, whatever. Ike regulates most of that to Soren and can spend more of that time training to get stronger. He doesn't need to worry about the same things they do and get bogged down by the same responsibilities so devote more of his effort to training.

[Mikethemaster]

I think IS just wanted to jerk off Ike Ragnel again that all. He is the most popular character from the heroes poll but most of his votes came from Smash fans probably. Ike get so much uneeded wank and people say Corrin get wank they haven't met Ike, even though he deserves his wank to an extend not that much wank.

[Julius Nepos]

On 2017-4-26 at 3:20 AM, Acacia Sgt said:

Exactly. The status of the final bosses is not a clear measure of the strength of the protagonists, since they all couldn't beat them all with just their own power.

This is very true.
Every lord has the help of allies and one or more holy weapons. 

On 2017-4-26 at 6:45 AM, Tamanoir said:

Don't forget the Ettard. No special ability or anything. It's just too heavy to be wielded by anyone else.

Alm also killed a god (we could compare Micaiah and Celica's implications in doing so, if we want to get technical, but he's as much a God Slayer as Ike is.) I think he has the best shot at taking Ike's title

Hector is also mainly defined by his strength, but didn't do anything that meaningfull with it (Defeating a simple Dragon with Eliwood, Lyn and Athos.)

That's not necessarily the point, but the way Ike uses his strength is also interresting. He's less ruthless than Alm or Hector (unless the BK s mentioned), and only uses it for a cause he think is right.

These are basically the points I was going to make.

Alm is closest to taking Ike's title. In fact, I don't really see any convincing evidence that Ike is stronger than Alm. They were both raised as commoners, they both commanded an army, they both overthrew the strongest nation in the continent, they both wielded a holy weapon, they both killed a god. Though it's true that Ike did fight two wars, whereas Alm only fought one.
Realistically, the real reason why no one considers Alm stronger than Ike is because no one really cares about FE2 (who knows if that'll change once Echoes comes around though).

[Baldrick]

Alm doesn't have a Zelgius equivalent, though.

[fangpoint333]

You haters can think of it like this if you want.

Ike is considered the strongest because he's ONLY good at fighting and someone who only spends their time doing one thing will naturally be better at it than others who spend it doing something else. He's a mercenary. It's his job to be good at it. He spends so much time training and fighting that he doesn't invest his character points into anything else. He knows he's uncharismatic and sucks at conversations because he has nothing else to talk about because he spends so much time training and fighting. It consumes such a large amount of his time that he can't even get a romantic pairing by the end of RD. It gets to the point where people call him a flat character who's only real standing out point is that he's strong.

Being in multiple wars is kind of a big deal. Fighting more battles gives you more time to grow. Alm became a king after his game and probably spent a lot less time training while Ike had a whole new war to get better. I forgot that Marth also fought two wars. Marth's strong point is his kindness though and he's not noted for his battle strength.

[Salamud]

Ike is such a good fighter his presence makes the Daein army lose in battle. That's a cut above even Lords with the blood of a dragon.

[Lyon's Dirge]

On 4/25/2017 at 7:50 PM, Soul~! said:

I actually forgot where this whole thing came about. Is it due to popularity? Because I can see how the writers made it seem that way in terms of lore in Awakening and Heroes, especially considering they're the iconic stars in Smash. I don't see any story feats standing out all that much in regards to Ike, in comparison to other Lords in the series. inb4 "oh he beat a goddess"- With help, by the way. Like every other Lord and their respective endgame bosses, pretty much?

Is it really so surprising that Ike is the strongest Lord? He was taught by a master and one of Daien's Four Riders, and he's a mercenary who fights for a living unlike every other Lord who usually fights to protect their families.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

I think it would be interesting to pit some of the strongest warriors from each continent against each other, without regalia.

Camus was also said to be nigh unstoppable and was widely regarded as the strongest warrior of his time. Would be interesting to see him and Ike go at it, or against other legends.

[Rapier]

On 25/04/2017 at 10:09 PM, Acacia Sgt said:

He's certainly strong. Not sure if strongest, but one of the strongest, definitely.

Also, yeah, I wouldn't really count on beating Ashera as being that meaningful considering he needed the power of Ashera's counterpart, who was said to be her equal, just the opposite of what they represent. If he didn't needed Yune to beat Ashera, then yes, that would've been quite impressive, and certainly would've launch him to the No. 1 spot. But as it stands, it wasn't.

Well, I know this sounds like troll logic, but Ike could defeat Ashera. He just could not kill her, due to her nature. That makes him stronger, and him beating Ashera becomes meaningful even though she keeps resurrecting everytime she is beaten. It is one hell of an accomplishment, even if he can't kill her without Yune's aid.

I also don't see the "Ike didn't defeat Ashera by himself, he had help, therefore he isn't that strong" argument holding up because that applies to every other Lord. They had allies with them and they needed magic weapons or an Infinity +1 Weapon/Power Up to defeat each game's final boss. If anything, Ike only needed Yune to stop Ashera's resurrection ability to actually finish her off, he didn't need a magic weapon specifically made for killing gods (someone correct me if there is anything in the script saying Ragnell was made for that) and he had strength to defeat Ashera without Yune's help. This and the boss escalations on the Tower (being accompanied does not make his victories less of feats) make me believe he is one of the strongest Lords, if not the strongest.

 

[Acacia Sgt]

51 minutes ago, Rapier said:

Well, I know this sounds like troll logic, but Ike could defeat Ashera. He just could not kill her, due to her nature. That makes him stronger, and him beating Ashera becomes meaningful even though she keeps resurrecting everytime she is beaten. It is one hell of an accomplishment, even if he can't kill her without Yune's aid.

I also don't see the "Ike didn't defeat Ashera by himself, he had help, therefore he isn't that strong" argument holding up because that applies to every other Lord. They had allies with them and they needed magic weapons or an Infinity +1 Weapon/Power Up to defeat each game's final boss. If anything, Ike only needed Yune to stop Ashera's resurrection ability to actually finish her off, he didn't need a magic weapon specifically made for killing gods (someone correct me if there is anything in the script saying Ragnell was made for that) and he had strength to defeat Ashera without Yune's help. This and the boss escalations on the Tower (being accompanied does not make his victories less of feats) make me believe he is one of the strongest Lords, if not the strongest.

 

On the same matter, then anybody could beat her. Since no one is prevented from reducing her HP to 0 and trigger the dialogue where Ashera recovers and stuff. Yune decided to give her power to Ike to deal the final blow, but nothing is stated that she couldn't do the same to anybody else. Or that it could, or would, fail if she did it with anybody else.

Yeah, no one disputed that. In fact, it was brought up early in the thread. As an aside, the boss escalations of the Tower is mitigated somewhat that it's mostly because Ashera is powering them up, and in turn, Yune blessed and powers up the party and their weapons.

Oh yeah, about the Ragnell, it was blessed by Ashera back then, alongside Alondite, Dheginsea's claws and Soan's fangs, to take down Yune. Wether it means they were actual god-slaying, or just anti-Yune because Ashera was the one that blessed them, is not exactly clear.

---

As an aside, this is probably just my opinion, but I think that this sort of discussions end up mostly futile. Mostly since the truth on the matter is that some people will ignore even objective facts when they don't match their own opinions, because they don't want to accept that said opinions could be wrong. Not even actually being wrong, just the chance they might be wrong. So in the end, it doesn't matter if Ike is really the strongest, or he's really not. People who believe in either will continue to do so, perhaps even if it existed an actual answer.

But don't let my pesimistic view on the matter amount to much. It's just my opinion, after all.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[Tolvir]

I wouldn't necessarily say he is the strongest, not even of the Tellius characters tbh. He definitely has some competition between the other lords and some of the other characters.

Don't forget the Laguz and their leaders. Tibarn, Caineghis, Nailah, Skrimir, and any of the main Dragon Laguz could easily be a formidable foe to Ike. Let alone Altina (who wielded both Alondite and Ragnell), Soan, and Dheginsea who were Ashera's 3 Heroes. I think having the position of essentially a deity's hitmen speaks for itself. Then you take into account some of the smaller characters in the cast. Stefan is a branded, and is regarded as one of the best swordsman lorewise. He even teaches Ike more on swordsmanship at one point in base conversations.

Outside of Tellius, you have a lot who could be on Ike's level or higher. Alm for example would easily be on Ike's level. He defeats a deity much like Ike does, but without the added strength Ike needed from Yune. As others have also pointed out, Zeke or Camus (or whatever new name he is going by) is regarded as one of the best, if not the best fighter of his time period. Xander and Ryoma could both possibly be on the same level, maybe a little lower. Both have been blessed by the Rainbow Sage, and both have powerful weapons. They are both regarded as some of the greatest fighters of [insert Fate's continent name here].

So I wouldn't exactly say Ike is the strongest character in Fire Emblem. He is by far one of the strongest, but he definitely has some competition for the strongest spot depending on what you are looking for (skill, outright power, etc).

Edited May 4, 2017 by Tolvir

[Wayward Alchemist]

Bear in mind that a solid 20-30% of Ike's characterization is from his appearances in Smash, since the Tellius games are so rare. A lot of people only know that Ike is swole af, has a big sword, fights for his friends, and that you'll get no sympathy from him, and imo Heroes capitalizes a lot on that with the whole "strongest hero" thing. In regards to godslaying, Gaiden did it first, with Alm kicking the shit out of a god all by himself. Like literally all by himself, only he can damage the final boss (well except for Clerics for some reason, they can hit him, too). Also in Echoes Ch.6 has him and his crew beat up another strong foe, but I won't spoil it.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Wayward Alchemist

[Junkhead]

On 2017-5-1 at 11:19 PM, Lyon's Dirge said:

Is it really so surprising that Ike is the strongest Lord? He was taught by a master and one of Daien's Four Riders, and he's a mercenary who fights for a living unlike every other Lord who usually fights to protect their families.

Actually, no. Like, at this point, it isn't. I forgot the bar for Lords wasn't that amazing to begin with, and that Ike is a warrior before he is a Lord.

[Salamud]

Duma is a dragon. Not a personification of Order.