NoA Announces Echoes DLC

[Ivy Wife Supremacy]

23 hours ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

Everything you listed is something I'm glad they didn't add or change about Gaiden.

I wish everyone would stop forgetting about you know, the actual next game in the franchise, which will expand on the popular FE mechanics without a doubt - stop trying to change this game in to what you think the next FE should be.

This game was not meant to be the next entry in the franchise. It's a stopgap for the wait for FE switch, and a bone for Gaiden fans.

Everyone who loves the new era of FE has a lot to look forward to. For those of us with a heart for that classic famicom feel, this is our last hurrah.

My thoughts exactly on everything you said.

[Amanroth]

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Here's the thing, the game has been out.....in Japan. So technically, NA/EU is the only place where the Day 1 DLC is a thing, and even then, it's just a Season Pass that downloads the maps as they release.

Which changes nothing about the concept/model behind the so-called DLC which is what I was talking about.

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This doesn't always happen though. Even with "real DLC".

At least it can(and should), unlike with sham DLC.

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Actually, the 5th Series of Echoes DLC is implied to have the four FE Cipher mascots and from the looks of it, you'll be able to recruit them. So yeah, extra units confirmed.

Exclusively for Celica's side? It doesn't matter either way because it has nothing at all to do with what I was talking about. It is not in response to consumer request, it is all part of the bigger pre-planned sham DLC. And as long as that model is followed, we have no hope of ever getting real DLC. Which is why I think it is important for people to not support sham DLC.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Amanroth

[Armagon]

3 minutes ago, Amanroth said:

Which changes nothing about the concept/model behind the so-called DLC which is what I was talking about.

At least it can(and should), unlike with sham DLC.

Exclusively for Celica's side? It doesn't matter either way because it has nothing at all to do with what I was talking about. It is not in response to consumer request, it is all part of the bigger pre-planned sham DLC. And as long as that model is followed, we have no hope of ever getting real DLC. Which is why I think it is important for people to not support sham DLC.

Is it really sham DLC though? Sham DLC is EA, where things are purposely locked out of the game behind a paywall. In Echoes, you can play the entire game without dropping a single cent on the DLC. Unlike EA's games, Echoes doesn't shove its DLC down your throat. 

Oh and also

6 minutes ago, Amanroth said:

It is not in response to consumer request,

Not being in response to consumer request doesn't inherently make it sham DLC. Were people asking for DLC to be in Breath of the Wild? To my knowledge, no. And yet, the game is getting DLC, all for small $20. $20 for a ton of content that was announced before the game's release AND wasn't really requested by consumers. According to your logic, that's sham DLC, even though i guarantee that it isn't.

[Amanroth]

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Is it really sham DLC though? Sham DLC is EA, where things are purposely locked out of the game behind a paywall. In Echoes, you can play the entire game without dropping a single cent on the DLC. Unlike EA's games, Echoes doesn't shove its DLC down your throat.

As far as I'm concerned, any pre-planned "DLC" that could've easily been included in the main game just by delaying it a couple weeks falls in that category. As does many pre-planned things that do take time as well just because of the fact that such things may very well have been deliberately withheld from the game just so people would have to pay separately for it. It doesn't have to be shoved down your throat to be sham DLC, and the fact that it isn't is what I hope can convince people to not bother buying it.

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Not being in response to consumer request doesn't inherently make it sham DLC.

It does when the whole thing is planned from before the game's release solely for jacking up end consumer costs of what could've otherwise just been there from the start without the need of any DLC. Even things that may have actaully taken some extra time can fall into that category depending on how it was planned/executed. (Likely including over 70% of season passes.) The bottom line still remains, having that "DLC" (especially when it all comes announced ahead of time with a season pass) completely and utterly destroys any and all chances of us ever getting real DLC based off our feedback.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Amanroth

[Armagon]

Just now, Amanroth said:

As far as I'm concerned, any pre-planned "DLC" that could've easily been included in the main game just by delaying it a couple weeks falls in that category. As does many pre-planned things that do take time as well just because of the fact that such things may very well have been deliberately withheld from the game just so people would have to pay separately for it. It doesn't have to be shoved down your throat to be sham DLC, and the fact that it isn't is what I hope can convince people to not bother buying it.

Ok but does stuff like the Over-Classes really need to be in the game to begin with though?  As for Echoes' grinding DLC, that's just the standard FE DLC at this point. The Deliverance prologue maps is just expanding on what we already know. Again, the complaints are mainly coming from the price tag of the Season Pass itself. The Season Pass could've been $5, would you still say it's sham DLC?

1 minute ago, Amanroth said:

It does when the whole thing is planned from before the game's release solely for jacking up end consumer costs of what could've otherwise just been there from the start without the need of any DLC. Even things that may have actaully taken some extra time can fall into that category depending on how it was planned/executed.

Ok so Breath of the Wild's DLC, which is taking a while to actually make (despite it being announced prior to the game's release), is sham DLC because it should've been in the base game from the start. Gotcha.

8 minutes ago, Amanroth said:

The bottom line still remains, having that "DLC" (especially when it all comes announced ahead of time with a season pass) completely and utterly destroys any and all chances of getting real DLC based off our feedback.

Yeah but is that really a big deal? There are a lot of great games out there that could benefit from DLC but don't get DLC, even if the feedback shows it. A game isn't made or broken by DLC. Unless it's EA, and in their case, their games are made AND broken by DLC. Thankfully, that isn't the case with Echoes, as the base game itself is already complete.

Also, regarding Smash, i'm pretty sure Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy and Ryu were planned from the start. Cloud and Bayo were likely the only "feedback DLC" characters, with Corrin being there to promote Fates and there were a lot of salty tears that day.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Here's the thing, the game has been out.....in Japan. So technically, NA/EU is the only place where the Day 1 DLC is a thing, and even then, it's just a Season Pass that downloads the maps as they release.

Japan got the same Day 1 DLC. Packs 1 and 2, but we have to wait till the 24th for pack 2, so that one's technically Day Five DLC internationally.

[Amanroth]

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The Season Pass could've been $5, would you still say it's sham DLC?

Since it still falls under what I described, it is indeed even if it costs just one cent.

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Yeah but is that really a big deal?

It is to me when it ruins the chances of DLC done right for good reasons. If a person just embraces sham DLC with open arms and never even thinks of the possibilities that DLC done right can bring, then it is those people we can thank for this sort of nonsense only getting worse. Imagine FE Switch potentially having a batch of pre-planned DLC that was done by the time the game was released but slowly released over half a year with no regard to feedback at all but done strictly to charge people an extra sixty or more bucks since they're just going to buy it into such nonsense regardless. That's why I think it better that people be aware of this problem and only support DLC that clearly is done the right way with the right intention. Otherwise sham DLC will just continue to get worse while real DLC will get more and more scarce.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Amanroth

[Armagon]

27 minutes ago, Amanroth said:

Since it still falls under what I described, it is indeed even if it costs just one cent.

It is to me when it ruins the chances of DLC done right for good reasons. If a person just embraces sham DLC with open arms and never even thinks of the possibilities that DLC done right can bring, then it is those people we can thank for this sort of nonsense only getting worse. Imagine FE Switch potentially having a batch of pre-planned DLC that was done by the time the game was released but slowly released over half a year with no regard to feedback at all but done strictly to charge people an extra sixty or more bucks since they're just going to buy it into such nonsense regardless. That's why I think it better that people be aware of this problem and only support DLC that clearly is done the right way with the right intention. Otherwise sham DLC will just continue to get worse while real DLC will get more and more scarce.

Ok, so someone in a different thread brought this up and i think it's worth sharing (I would actually quote him but quoting a specific part of a post while on mobile is shit, so i'll just copy and past. I'll at least provide source)

"And in regards to the idea of time being cut to work on the game, keep in mind just how far along the game was when it got announced. The game looked finished when it was announced in February, and localization seemed far along as well. I guarantee the game was just about finished when it was announced, needing only bug testing and finishing touches in order to release. So the idea of DLC being worked on at that point, when most of the development team has finished their job, makes sense. So the idea of us getting the announcement as "early" as we did makes sense...

...Just look at the DLC. Do you really think this was the kind of thing to at all be cut from a game? 6 grinding maps, useless classes, and story maps that wouldnt be able to fit anywhere considering the game following Alm and Celica almost exclusively? And Cipher Characters on top of it? This wasnt stuff cut from the game, this was developed later. Seriously, just take a good look at the DLC. Does it at all look like content that would be in the main game?"

Source: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/71484-why-is-the-dlc-getting-so-much-hate/&do=findComment&comment=4822765

As for pre-planned DLC, it isn't inheriantly bad. Awakening's DLC was pre-planned (i think, pretty sure tho) and it got a positive reception (especially the challenge maps). Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy, and Ryu were pre-planned in Smash and they got a positive reception.

Now, is Echoes' pre-planned DLC bad? I'd argue no. In this case, it's more of it just being there than actually being bad. Because again, none of it is forced on you.

 

[Amanroth]

As I said before, even things that are actually worked on afterwards can still fall into that category that I have a problem with. Especially when much of it is either superfluous or filled with shady choices like there being multiple grinding maps instead of just one.

As for pre-planned DLC, it isn't inheriantly bad. Awakening's DLC was pre-planned (i think, pretty sure tho) and it got a positive reception (especially the challenge maps). Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy, and Ryu were pre-planned in Smash and they got a positive reception.

Sources? Even if certain things from Smash were per-conceived, they didn't just say on day one "here is everything we will include in the future for this price", which is part of why there was no season pass. Doing such would have essentially just locked them in a position where they might have well have just delayed the game a year since people's feedback would be irrelevant. The fact that people got to vote on a character shows in the end they at least did one case of DLC right.

Now, is Echoes' pre-planned DLC bad?

It absolutely is since it is the bad practice DLC that utterly destroys the chances of any hope for good practice DLC. That will always be the main problem with it. That's why I don't want people to support this type of DLC and only complain when these practices get even worse.

[Armagon]

6 hours ago, Amanroth said:

Sources? Even if certain things from Smash were per-conceived, they didn't just say on day one "here is everything we will include in the future for this price", which is part of why there was no season pass. Doing such would have essentially just locked them in a position where they might have well have just delayed the game a year since people's feedback would be irrelevant. The fact that people got to vote on a character shows in the end they at least did one case of DLC right.

 

It absolutely is since it is the bad practice DLC that utterly destroys the chances of any hope for good practice DLC. That will always be the main problem with it. That's why I don't want people to support this type of DLC and only complain when these practices get even worse.

Mewtwo was announced before the release of Smash Wii U. And then, Lucas was announced before the announcment ballot, with Lucas, Roy, and Ryu being released at the same time. Yeah, these four were definitly pre-planned. Oh, and looking at the DLC stages, evidence of them existing was discovered in the early Smash 3DS days.

It's not though. Bad practice DLC is EA. There's three types of DLC: Good, " ehh" and bad DLC. Echoes' DLC falls into the "ehh" catagory. That's the catagory where you COULD buy the DLC, but there isn't really a reason to, as the base game is complete with out it.

Then there's good DLC which is when the game's complete and the DLC is something that players would actually want.

Bad DLC is EA.

 

[Amanroth]

Being announced before release doesn't mean it was pre-planned, it means it was decided on and they're letting folks know, otherwise every bit ever made including Bayo would have been pre-planned. There's no way for us to know  whether or not the big outcry over the lack of Mewtwo is what made them select him as the very first DLC or not, but the fact that they had nothing more than a still model to show off at his announcement would suggest work on him had only just started. 

And what you called "ehh" DLC has the same problem as "bad" DLC: supporting it will only prevent good DLC from ever happening. That is why I hope enough people can see the problem and refuse to buy into this nonsense; only then will they get the message that we don't want this kind of junk and be forced to consider doing good DLC, otherwise they'll just continue to take this crap to whole new levels. 

[Moblin Major General]

2 minutes ago, Amanroth said:

And what you called "ehh" DLC has the same problem as "bad" DLC: supporting it will only prevent good DLC from ever happening. That is why I hope enough people can see the problem and refuse to buy into this nonsense; only then will they get the message that we don't want this kind of junk and be forced to consider doing good DLC, otherwise they'll just continue to take this crap to whole new levels. 

Actually, ehh DLC tends to come from otherwise honest companies, and even though people do buy it in droves, it's not without backlash. Remember the infamous DLCs from the Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion? The small ones like Horse Armor and Mehrune's Razor were about $5 apiece, there were (I think) 6 of them, as well as the much more expensive Knights of the Nine and Shivering Isles, meaning the PC version of Oblivion was around double the price of the base game. This was not very well received by fans, and as such, Skyrim had 3 good DLCs. If this knee-jerk is anything to go by, no matter the sales, the internet backlash will be enough for both Nintendo and IS to reconsider doing something like this again. As for bad DLCs, EA, Activision, and Bungie have always been terrible, and will continue to be terrible as long as their communities continue to be run by pre-teen boys with mouths that would make Filthy Frank take them to task.

[Amanroth]

the internet backlash will be enough for both Nintendo and IS to reconsider doing something like this again.

lol It doesn't matter if the internet rage is great enough to make volcanoes erupt. It all comes down to if it succeeds in making enough profit for the bigwigs to say "Hey, our screw-you methods worked to make sufficient profit before, we should do it again... maybe even kick it up a notch!" Our only hope of avoiding that is if enough people put their money where their mouth is and don't buy this, that way they'll consider it not worth repeating or even taking to the next level.