Why are natures so serious business?

[shadowofchaos]

Just now, Vaximillian said:

It affects your units' performance, which leads to making completing a streak easier or harder.

At which point we are to evaluate the stakes depending on the level in the arena.

0-4000 points: The majority of your feather gain. Regardless of ranking, rarity, or nature, getting all these feathers is way in the realm of possible.

 

Ranking: Usually in the upper levels of 4.7k: A single death already means a restart.

1 minute ago, Fruity Insanity said:

Well, no, it doesn't match the score ceiling, but why use a -Spd Ryoma is basically what I'm saying.

You use him to go fast, kill fast, and having -Spd/+Res doesn't really help him accomplish that. You still kill Nino and Julia, and you still easily die to Linde or Reinhardt regardless. So if you can do that. So you may as well have some other boon/bane to help with the borderline cases, like enemy sword infantry and whatnot. He might be able to duel someone like Lucina if he isn't -Spd, but I can't fight her with only 32 spd (especially since all the Lucina's I face are merged at least a few times or have Fury 3).

Not that a -Spd Ryoma is unusable. Just not an optimal use of one of your four slots.

See this:

1 hour ago, shadowofchaos said:

In Ryouma's case, even at -spd he still has distant counter and will probably be doubling greens anyway.

Swordbreaker kills speedy reds that he can't double. And he should be staying away from high speed mage ranges anyway like Tharja or Linde until he can get up in their faces or can vantage kill them.

"Just not optimal use".

Yes, I don't deny that in the upper levels of arena that nitpicking natures can make it easier for you with setups. But at the end of the day, a unit's value and uniqueness is not circumvented by having a bad nature. Especially at the lower levels of play.

I'm posting this in a Fire Emblem forum, of all places. So of course people look for optimization. But the point of the thread is that optimization is not NECESSARY in a game where you take what you can get and is largely a PvE fanservice game with one/two semi-serious social competitive aspects.

[r_n]

I care in the sense that I'm curious what ideal natures are, and how to make the best out of what natures I have, but as a F2P player I can't really be picky. My -Speed Nino may miss kills but she still puts the time in, so to speak.

That said if I have multiples I'll usually try to take the "best" because why not

[shadowofchaos]

Just now, r_n said:

I care in the sense that I'm curious what ideal natures are, and how to make the best out of what natures I have,

And there's no shame in that.

[Folt]

+HP, -Def on my M!Robin, while pretty unoptimal (Kagerous do somewhat high damage to him even with Triangle Adept, but he still tanks most other attacks from any kind of red unit fine), hasn't been a make-it-or-break-it for him. However, I would still level up my 3* +Def, -HP Robin so that I can merge the two together and make Robin become even tankier on the physical side (not to mention that -HP is a bane that M!Robin quite frankly doesn't care too much about, espcially since the +3 HP Seal exists) and get use out of Bonfire. That said, M!Robin is one of the units who could benefit from just about any boon except possibly +HP and doesn't mind any bane except for -Atk which makes it easier for me to keep any M!Robin I get since nature is not so important for him.

Then there's units whose best and most powerful builds makes them dependent on certain stats (Reinhardt wants high Atk for example so he can delete other units off of the battlefield on player phase), so getting a boon in that stat would be extremely preferable to having a neutral one (I was contemplating using my +Res, -Def Reinhardt until I got one that had +Atk instead, which let me mulch the +Res one to Xander to give him Goad Cavalry).

Also, at times, you can get lucky and get a very optimal boon/bane relatively easily as happened with me and Spring!Chrom (+Spd, -HP), and Nino (second Nino I ever pulled was +Spd, -Res which means that once I feather her up, she will become an incredibly potent -Blade user) which begs the question: Why should I not try to build them and make them the best they can be?

Edited May 5, 2017 by Folt

[Fruity Insanity]

4 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

See this:

"Just not optimal use".

Yes, I don't deny that in the upper levels of arena that nitpicking natures can make it easier for you with setups. But at the end of the day, a unit's value and uniqueness is not circumvented by having a bad nature. Especially at the lower levels of play.

I'm posting this in a Fire Emblem forum, of all places. So of course people look for optimization. But the point of the thread is that optimization is not NECESSARY in a game where you take what you can get and is largely a PvE fanservice game with one/two semi-serious social competitive aspects.

I mean, I agree with you that IVs don't make or break a character (unless you're a brave weapon user, maybe), but take your Ryoma example.

I need Swordbreaker to patch up my dueling issues. But that takes up my B slot, where I would normally want to put Vantage. If that Ryoma were +Spd (or even neutral spd), I wouldn't need Swordbreaker and could run Vantage instead. The best of both worlds.

Instead, I have to pick one over the other. And in Arena, I want a unit to cover as many bases as possible so I can safely face a wide variety of teams.

That said, a high tier 5* unit is still a high tier 5* unit, and IVs won't change that. And it isn't necessary unless going against whales.

I'm just salty about that bane, donmai.

[Sire]

For me, I get into a mix-max mentality and want to do things "in the most efficient manner" so I do not waste time. Now, it can be said I have minor OCD and I am self-aware that my "efficient / completionist" mentality is not always a healthy one or always promotes "fun over efficiency," but that is how it is.

For some examples when I use Natures...

1. Choosing between two units with different natures.

I have two Kageros, a 5* version and a 4* version. 4-Star Kagero has a "perfect nature" (+ATT, -DEF), while the 5* version does not. So, I use the 5* Kagero to learn some skills (Poison Strike 3, Moonbow, and maybe Savage Blow when I can find one...) to eventually merge on to my 4* Kagero when she finally unlocks her potential and becomes a 5* unit.

So, not only does my chosen Kagero "inherit" the skills the 5* version did, she will have them already learned and get the merge bonus as well! Then, my chosen Kagero will have extra SP to use (mostly for Life and Death and an Assist Skill), and doesn't need to worry about learning Poison Dagger+ since she learned it already from the merging process.
-----
Of course, the alternative is simply using the undesired unit for skill inheritance fodder, passing on skills to different units. If there are no real useful skills on that unit or I happen to really, really dislike said character, then they can be retired for the meager amount of feathers. Previously, this happened with Subaki, Hinata, Donnel, and surplus Healers, but as of late I've been hoarding characters because one never knows when they will be useful (or required for a quest - curse you Subaki!).

2. Brand new unit with an undesirable nature.

They hit the bench. I have no reason to train them up unless I need unlock their potentials for skill inheritance.

The only exception to this rule is if that unit happens to be a favorite character of mine and I have no alternatives. Personal examples are Fir, F!Corrin, and M!Robin. They all have subpar natures, but I am training them anyway because I love the characters. (It also helps later when the whole Skill Inheritance thing.)

3. Brave Weapons and the Speed Benchmark

99% of the time, Brave Weapon users will want +ATT and never want -ATT as their nature as the extra +3/+4 ATT (+6/+8 in combat) can go a long way to secure a kill.

Then, I consider 32 SPD to be the "benchmark" as it prevents Neutral Lucina and Neutral Linde from doubling. If characters can get or bypass 32 SPD, I highly recommend it as doubling and preventing enemies from doubling you is extremely important in Heroes. The only time a person will want a -SPD Bane is if they are really slow in the first place, or go so fast that they do not need the extra SPD (usually there is a specific build in mind if there is a -SPD hero.)

Another time to want a +SPD Boon is when a character can get +4 from the Boon instead of the +3, like Azama. If the hero can get over 30 SPD, I would do so. A +SPD Azama with the +3 SPD passive will have 33 SPD instead, 7 more SPD than Neutral Azama!

* * * * *

However, despite all this, do natures really matter in the long run?

No.

At the end of the day, Fire Emblem Heroes is a video game. There is no need to stress oneself over getting what is optimal or not. Just gather all of your favorite characters together, poke at them in the stats screen, and have fun.

Would it be nice if your favorite character had optimal natures? Sure. But the character alone should be enough. If one gets far too focused on the numbers and not the characters, then I doubt one will get far enjoying Fire Emblem Heroes.

[Arcanite]

17 minutes ago, Sire said:

However, despite all this, do natures really matter in the long run?

No.

I some what disagree;

You can't say "NO" just like that.

In my opinion the answer is "It depends on why/how you play this game"

You play it casually becasue you like the charcters and want to summon the one and onky baby gurl/baby boy you've been waiting for since launch (Joshua when)?

Then natures don't matter

You play it because you want to have a completely busted arena team and reach the top 1k someday to show off on all of your friends?

Then yeah, natures matter. Especially considering what "typical" things you'll see in the upper registry. AKA Fury on everything, Vantage in the cut, Wings of Mercy every where etc. You'll want to make sure (unit) doesn't have minus (stat) so this way they live a hit from (A-skill) (unit). Or You'll want to make sure (unit) has plus (stat) so this way they can kill (unit)

But if you don't really care, it's more like " I got another Effie (+Atk -Res). Eh, I already have an Effie at 5 stars so even if she's minus attack I'll still use her. Besides! She's my favorite!"

[Sire]

1 minute ago, Arcanite said:

I some what disagree;

You can't say "NO" just like that.

In my opinion the answer is "It depends on why/how you play this game"

You play it casually becasue you like the charcters and want to summon the one and onky baby gurl/baby boy you've been waiting for since launch (Joshua when)?

Then natures don't matter

You play it because you want to have a completely busted arena team and reach the top 1k someday to show off on all of your friends?

Then yeah, natures matter. Especially considering what "typical" things you'll see in the upper registry. AKA Fury on everything, Vantage in the cut, Wings of Mercy every where etc. You'll want to make sure (unit) doesn't have minus (stat) so this way they live a hit from (A-skill) (unit). Or You'll want to make sure (unit) has plus (stat) so this way they can kill (unit)

But if you don't really care, it's more like " I got another Effie (+Atk -Res). Eh, I already have an Effie at 5 stars so even if she's minus attack I'll still use her. Besides! She's my favorite!"

This treads into the more competitive, "I want to be the best" mentality, and of course optimal natures (and skill builds) will matter there.

What I meant by saying "No" in the long run was for the general playerbase of Heroes. The true answer to everything will always be on a case-by-case basis as there is never a single-overarching answer. If players are having fun optimizing their characters to become the very best, then go for it.

[AnnaEevee]

Eh, I never cared about natures tbh. Sometimes I check how the grows will be affected by each unit and try to find a way to get something good out of that nature, and I think there's some fun in doing so? I mean, it's a strategy game. Every unit has their own asset and flaw, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it and have fun regardless. I think most of the time people care because of "optimization", but then where's the fun to strategize your victory? Is it worth it at the end having easy wins, ranking at the top and get a few more feathers? I don't think so, but that could just be me. All I care about is getting my favorite characters and have fun.

Spoiler

Though if they're having fun optimizing, who am I to judge?

 

 

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

I think it can matter a fair bit below 4500 because people aren't playing optimally. Continuing to use the whole "natures as level-up RNG that we'd see in the main series" comparison, some people just aren't as skilled and will lean on that RNG for beefier stats to help them get by. This was me when I first started playing the series. I'd reset the start of maps in the GBA games if someone got a 1-2-point level up. I ground in the Arena in Blazing Blade and the Tower in Sacred Stones. Sometimes people don't improve as quickly or aren't willing to improve and continue to use this crutch to get by. Last night, I watched someone get both Duessel and Seth killed by Vigarde for pretty much no good reason, and this was after a failed gamble on Tana dodging a 30 displayed hit that killed her. Betters levels might have saved him (or maybe not). He could also get more skilled, but to be honest, he's already climbing at a fairly reasonable rate and going faster would require a lot more work. Anyway, speaking as someone who used to be part of the camp that relied on stats more to brute force through things, I definitely understand the why (less effort) and the draw (especially that feeling of power as one unit rolls everything). Of course, with the only way to achieve similar in Heroes at a significant pace being to grind the gacha by shoveling cash into it, that mentality can become rather problematic.

[DehNutCase]

L&D Luna Brave Bow+ Setsuna:

+Atk 94 wins.

=Atk 80 wins.

-Atk 55 wins.

She goes from almost TKJ level to dumpster tier from going from +Atk to -Atk nature.

 

Yeah, if you have a Linde or Nino natures don't matter much, since their spreads are absurdly good, but borderline units get wrecked.

[Cute Chao]

Personally, I like to know the natures in case I get duplicates. Currently, I have a -Spd +Hp Ryoma. To me, he's still frickin' amazing. I use him all the time and he kills many of the things I need him to. But he dies to several swordusers a +Spd Ryoma doesn't (including himself if the other is +spd). And if I then happen to pull a +Spd Ryoma down the line, why the heck wouldn't I swap him for that one? I don't understand why anyone would go for a less optimal unit if they happen to pull extras, especially a free to play person. 

That being said, I also keep one of every unit (and try to use them) regardless of their nature. If my only one happens to have a bad bane, then oh well. I'd never send it home if it was my only unit of that type. Not everyone wants to collect one of every unit, though, which is fine. I do agree, sending one home based solely on nature when they are your only unit of that type does feel like throwing a tantrum, though. Sending them home for feathers or using them for skills, if you really don't have a use for that character but feel like you need the feathers more (you may not feel this, but others do - it's their own style. Not everyone wants to keep units they see as excess, regardless of quests) then that's fine, too. 

Edited May 5, 2017 by Cute Chao

[ShadowYoshi]

IMHO natures don't matter too much, unless it's -Spd which is often (not always, depends on the unit of course) atrocious.

Honestly it's fine to get a bad nature, at least it will force the player to come up with an alternative build that works with those stats

For example, I have a +Spd Ephraim and I'm trying to build him up as a speedy buffer with Darting Blow, whose role is to get my -Spd Lucina up to par whenever he isn't killing (I still have to get level 3, but even now 33 speed conveniently doubles some people)

+Spd isn't exactly BAD but it helps Ephraim in a different way than what you'd expect, and for when he can't double anyone I intend to give him Draw Back because I need someone with that desperately rn XD

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

Bad natures do leave a sour taste in my mouth, and definitely affects my experience with a unit. My Bunny Lucina is +Atk -Spd, and those 3 points of Speed mattered so much that my personal opinion of her was low until some discussion with others, even though without the -Spd she's really really solid. But since I don't whale, I still have to use these guys; my first Azura was +Def -Spd (one of the worst possible), but she's one of my favs and she's still useful for me, so I went with it.

Also, if a 4* I pull has a bad nature, no way I'm gonna upgrade it. My +Atk -Spd Effie earned those 20k feathers.

Edited May 5, 2017 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[salinea]

I'm F2P and I do care about nature. I keep track of all of them. Now that doesn't mean I think a bad nature makes a unit trash though.

For example, I have a -speed/+def Cordelia (a bane I once saw described as "crippling" on this forum) and I still think she awesome. Largely because Cordelia is an awesome unit in the first place. She won't quadhit which is a shame, sure, but being +def means she can actually take advantage of Tri Adept to tank some red units and then trigger Galeforce more often.

I'm F2P so when I spend 20,000 feathers to promote a unit to 5* I want it to matter so if I have several spares of a unit, of course I want to know their nature to know whether it's worthwhile to do so. I waited a bit before I got a good Nino I could promote and I don't regret it, she's awesome.

On the other hand, I know which units I can trash for skills.

Knowing that my Julia is -Res/+Def doesn't make me value her any less, even though it's somewhat mediocre. She still has enough Res for 90% of what she needs and can tank a blow from a physical unit more than she would otherwise.

I care about their nature not because I want to brag about it -- sure it's cool to have a +Att Ike with a 54 offense but so what? - and not just because i want to be competitive.

It's because I'm F2P and it's important to know my units strength and weaknesses so I can make the best choices both in how to use them tactically; and how to dispose of the limited resources I have.

[Sunwoo]

For the most part, I don't care very much about nature. The only time I really ever take it into account is 1) if I have multiple versions of the character, and 2) the bane is actually super debilitating (Tsubaki's attack is low enough, so -atk would be pretty bad on him). But pretty much every other case I don't care.

All of my 5-stars have a variety of natures, some good and some less than good, but I use them anyway without caring. I was using some of my not-ideal natured characters way back in the beginning of the game before we even knew natures were a thing, and all of them pulled their weight for me. So I don't need one with a better nature.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Sunwoo

[shadowofchaos]

5 hours ago, Fruity Insanity said:

*snip*

Neal, stop saying IV.

Edited May 5, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Alkaid]

It really depends on the unit. Like @DehNutCase's example shows, some units get screwed out of a lot of match ups just due to your bad luck of rolling a poor natured one. It sucks when that happens, and I think it's unfair to call anyone spoiled for being upset about that kind of thing. Regardless of how competitive a player is, if a unit you've been wanting finally shows up and it's partly neutered in usability just because of another RNG layer, that's a bummer.

[Okigen]

I do care if my pulls have -spd because it will require more planning and SI to help them not get doubled by Tharja/Linde/Nino.

Everything else is considered salvageable with SI and buffs. Nature is a nice touch to the game but I would like to think of FEH as a strategy game which requires brain power to cover your team's weakness rather than a min/max team to brute force over everything.

[Fruity Insanity]

32 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Neal, stop saying IV.

Hehe, that's what people used at first and it kinda stuck with me. ペコ

Nature is the more accurate term, I know, I know. ٩( ᐛ )و

Edited May 5, 2017 by Fruity Insanity

[Ice Dragon]

6 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

@Ice Dragon

It's done. How bad does managing your units get when your barracks are maxed out?

Spreadsheet dictates.

I keep all 5-star units (unless they get merged or eaten) because it's damned hard to strike gold. I don't mind using a less-than-perfect 5-star unit because I can always just merge it into a better one later.

For 4-star and 3-star units (and for deciding which 5-star units get merged or eaten first), things are complicated:

• Most characters I keep 1 copy each of [+Atk, -Res], [+Spd, -Res], and [=], especially if I haven't run the character's match-ups yet.
• Tome users I usually keep 1 copy each of [+Atk, -Def], [+Spd, -Def], and [=] instead.
• Tome users with decent Def I usually keep both the -Res and -Def versions until I run numbers.
• Characters with extremely low Spd I usually keep only [+Atk, -Spd] and [=].
• Characters with extremely low Atk I usually keep only +Atk versions and pick the lower of the defensive stats as the hindered stat (so that they don't lose damage when using Bonfire or Iceberg).
• Staff users I keep 1 copy each of [+Spd, -Atk] and [=]. All 5-star staff users are immediately merged to save space. Except Elise.
• If I am missing a nature that I normally keep, I'll keep the next best thing that I actually have. For example, I might keep [+Spd, -HP] if I'm missing [+Spd, -Res].
• Once I actually run numbers, I start getting rid of the ones I no longer need. I sometimes choose to keep a [=] copy just for novelty.
• I might keep 1-3 extra copies of certain characters for inheritance, typically characters with high-demand skills (e.g. Quick Riposte, Bonfire) or of colors that I don't pull as often (e.g. Hone Cavalry).

Basically, keep the few that statistically have the highest chance of being the ideal nature (and [=] for novelty) and toss everything else that isn't in high demand for inheritance. I pull often enough that I'll usually pick up something to eat while pulling if it's for a skill with lower demand and decent availability.

Grand Hero Battle characters are always kept. I'll merge them if I ever have resources to spare and start eating them after I have enough copies for a +10 merge.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[Phoenix_Kensai]

I have a -Atk +Def Hinoka, which seems like one of the worst natures she could have, but she's still doing great. I gave her Triangle Attack and Quick Riposte, and she can take out most red units in a single battle on either phase, which is all I really need (I keep her paired with Gronnblade Spring Camilla; the other half of my arena team hardly even sees use).

So... I'd say that while natures matter, they're not always as important as you might think, and any character can be good if you're willing to invest in them. This is an unusual situation, though, I'm sure.

[Sayyyaka]

People like winning at a video game. Fuck them, right?

[Arcanite]

1 hour ago, shadowofchaos said:

Neal, stop saying IV.

I'm going to purposely start saying IV just to make you angry

1 hour ago, Okigen said:

I do care if my pulls have -spd because it will require more planning and SI to help them not get doubled by Tharja/Linde/Nino.

yeah that seems to be the most scariest thing in the arena, in addition to the +Spd Fury Lucinas I see sometimes. Now I have an Azura to deal with them so it doesn't particularly matter anymore.

Nothing is more disappointing than a -Spd IV though XD

2 minutes ago, Sayyyaka said:

People like winning at a video game. Fuck them, right?

Its not as simple as that, but I completely understand where you're coming from lol

Edited May 5, 2017 by Arcanite

[Rafiel's Aria]

I think when I first started playing the game boons/banes didn't matter at all. For more casual players (but one that still cares about doing well), having a character with an ideal boon/bane makes raising a team easier. Sometimes, players don't want to go out of their way to make like a -ATK Henry work for them.  For them, that means either benching him or using a lot of resources to make up for an already low stat. (Probably a bad example, but Henry was the first character that came to mind.) 

I'd say a boon/bane really only hurts a character if it makes certain weaknesses even weaker than they already are.  It's really just overkill when it emphasizes strengths.  Lucina already has a high ATK stat, so my -ATK Lucina doesn't really suffer all that much. She's not AS strong as other Lucinas, but I've never once been upset with her. But characters with an already low ATK would really benefit from neutral or even +ATK. 

I think it honestly comes down to "this character is SLIGHTLY better than this other one." Which in some match-ups can mean a lot. Maybe having a character with an ideal boon/bane just means bragging rights? XD