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*STORY SPOILERS* Thoughts on the Masked Knight?


Masked Knight Character Poll  

38 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you like Conrad?

    • Yes
      25
    • No
      1
    • In-between
      9
    • I don't care for him at all
      3


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4 hours ago, Thane said:

It was almost a blessing I didn't understand everything that went on between Celica and Jedah, but I understood enough to roll my eyes.

As Armagon points out, it's not quite out of nowhere...
...But yeah, considering how they throw Alm VS Celica in your face as soon as you start up a new game, I'd wager this was done for the sake of shock value more than anything.

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3 hours ago, Armagon said:

No, it was, it was just.....you know.....Gaiden. In both Gaiden and Echoes, Jedah lures Celica to Duma Tower by using her concern about Alm against her. In both Gaiden and Echoes, Jedah trapped and intended to sacrifice Celica to Duma.

But in Gaiden, Alm crashes the party before it happens. In Echoes, Jedah actually (temporarily) suceeds in sacrificing Celica to Duma.

Well, there really wasn't that much dialogue to go around in the original Gaiden, but Celica doesn't have this big internal struggle about sacrificing herself to save everyone and Alm in the original, which means all of this development is new to Echoes. She is lured to the Tower by Jedah, but her intentions are not clearly stated in the original; I personally never interpreted it as her willingly going up just to sacrifice herself to save everyone and Alm. It felt more like Jedah deceived her and trapped her, instead of Celica giving up.

Edited by SatsumaFSoysoy
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16 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Well, there really wasn't that much dialogue to go around in the original Gaiden, but Celica doesn't have this big internal struggle about sacrificing herself to save everyone and Alm in the original, which means all of this development is new to Echoes. She is lured to the Tower by Jedah, but her intentions are not clearly stated in the original; I personally never interpreted it as her willingly going up just to sacrifice herself to save everyone and Alm. It felt more like Jedah deceived her and trapped her, instead of Celica giving up.

Fair enough. A lot of things in the original Gaiden were simply just interpretations, and all the canon stuff came mostly from Kaga. I wonder if the manga has something tho (yes, there's an official Gaiden manga...

Spoiler

...Kliff dies in it.)

Anyway, this whole thing reminds me of Sacred Stones when Eirika hands over the Stone of Renais to the Demon King who was pretending to be Lyon, even though it was a very obvious trap. 

Celica and Eirika are the most naive Lords in the series, and it leads to some dumb decisions, but you know what, i feel like that's a good thing, because being naive is a flaw, and flaws make characters like Celica and Eirika more beliveable.

 

 

Edited by Armagon
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39 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Fair enough. A lot of things in the original Gaiden were simply just interpretations. I wonded if the manga has something tho (yes, there's an official Gaiden manga...

  Reveal hidden contents

...Kliff dies in it.)

Anyway, this whole thing reminds me of Sacred Stones when Eirika hands over the Stone of Renais to the Demon King who was pretending to be Lyon, even though it was a very obvious trap. 

Celica and Eirika are the most naive Lords in the series, and it leads to some dumb decisions, but you know what, i feel like that's a good thing, because being naive is a flaw, and flaws make characters like Celica and Eirika more beliveable.

 

 

Spoiler

Kamui dies to the Draco Zombies too, right? I was wondering why he came up to talk about his phobia.

I feel like Eirika's scenario with the Stone of Renais is much more well-executed than Celica's final arc in this game; Chapter 4 and 5 Celica was a bit unfortunate. With Eirika, she still held on to that one glimmer of hope that Lyon would come back, and when it was crushed, she steeled herself to end Fomortiis. I did find myself screaming "WHAT ARE YOU STOOPID" at Eirika, but it didn't feel like a forced excuse for things to feel more desperate, but rather important to Eirika's development.

With Celica, she just spent a lot of time keeping her emotions bottled up, and then throwing a little tantrum about how no one understands her (well...like a real woman...). It was honestly a little bit annoying, and I was a bit disappointed and irritated every time they brought it up. It sucks how useless she becomes in Chapter 5, becoming really single-minded and negative about sacrificing herself and stopping Duma, just so Alm can save her and give her hope.

Edited by SatsumaFSoysoy
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Honestly, the worst part isn't how Celica comes across as stupid, but rather uncaring to her allies. She doesn't tell them anything, yet asks them to follow her to the edge of the continent through some really damn dangerous territory.

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4 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

 She is lured to the Tower by Jedah, but her intentions are not clearly stated in the original; I personally never interpreted it as her willingly going up just to sacrifice herself to save everyone and Alm. It felt more like Jedah deceived her and trapped her, instead of Celica giving up.

If Alm reaches the Dragon Mountain before Celica reaches the Tower of Doma, Judah spells it out fairly clearly.

Judah:
Hehehe… Cellica.
Alm’s trapped in Dragon Mountain. You must want to save him.
If that’s so, then follow after me.
If you offer yourselves as sacrifices to Lord Doma, Alm’s path shall also open up once more!

Celica doesn't outright state her intention, but when she meets Hark, she asks him to help Alm. If she intended to defeat Judah herself, it's strange that she didn't ask Hark for help.

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2 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

If Alm reaches the Dragon Mountain before Celica reaches the Tower of Doma, Judah spells it out fairly clearly.

 

 

Celica doesn't outright state her intention, but when she meets Hark, she asks him to help Alm. If she intended to defeat Judah herself, it's strange that she didn't ask Hark for help.

I feel like when you're told your not-lover is at this very moment getting hounded by undead dragons, you would ask a powerful sage to help him. I certainly didn't interpret it as Celica already giving up at that point.

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2 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I feel like when you're told your not-lover is at this very moment getting hounded by undead dragons, you would ask a powerful sage to help him. I certainly didn't interpret it as Celica already giving up at that point.

You can reach the village before Alm is attacked by dragons, so the help refers to defeating Duma/saving Mila.

How do you not interpret Judah saying "Let me sacrifice you" and Celica not resisting at all, as Celica not giving up?

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Just now, Baldrick said:

You can reach the village before Alm is attacked by dragons, so the help refers to defeating Duma/saving Mila.

How do you not interpret Judah saying "Let me sacrifice you" and Celica not resisting at all, as Celica not giving up?

In my mind, it's the kind of thing where you know it's probably a trap, but you go and challenge the boss anyway.

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3 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

In my mind, it's the kind of thing where you know it's probably a trap, but you go and challenge the boss anyway.

That's no different to sacrificing yourself.

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1 minute ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Yes, but that was not the point.

The point was whether Celica threw her life away in the original Gaiden. The distinction of whether she intended to sacrifice herself, or acquiesced when Judah let "I am going to sacrifice you" is moot.

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Just now, Baldrick said:

The point was whether Celica threw her life away in the original Gaiden. The distinction of whether she intended to sacrifice herself, or acquiesced when Judah let "I am going to sacrifice you" is moot.

Okay.

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Back on topic, if anything, Conrad's existence would probably make Celica more willing to let Judah kill her. Since there's still someone who can take the throne afterwards.

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Its to soon to say for sure but things would have to be very weird for me not to like Conrad. I tend to like it when behind the big baddass masked figure hides a big dork. Conrad's support with Celica was also rather sweet.

I don't think Conrad's existence is that damaging a retcon because he is a bastard, therefore his presence shouldn't stand against Celica getting the throne. I'm also pretty soft on this game when it comes to Retcons because....well its Gaiden, what was even there that could be damaged by a retcon?

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13 hours ago, Thane said:

Honestly, the worst part isn't how Celica comes across as stupid, but rather uncaring to her allies. She doesn't tell them anything, yet asks them to follow her to the edge of the continent through some really damn dangerous territory.

Honestly, based on this observation and what little I've seen of Celica in previews, she ultimately comes across as clinically depressed. :( 

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53 minutes ago, Pitchkart said:

Honestly, based on this observation and what little I've seen of Celica in previews, she ultimately comes across as clinically depressed. :( 

I wouldn't say clinically depressed but she's got a ton of things going through her mind. There's also the fact that she feels stressed out after arguing with Alm.

Although going off the prolouge footage, Celica was depressed before meeting Alm, due to the fact that Desaix wanted her dead and she thought Conrad had died in a fire.

On a side note, we find out in that GameXplain livestream, that Celica seems to hate her father, King Lima IV, saying "i'll never think of that man as my father." Maybe it has to do with the fact that King Lima didn't really give a shit about anything, which is what allowed Desaix's rise to power.

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35 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I wouldn't say clinically depressed but she's got a ton of things going through her mind. There's also the fact that she feels stressed out after arguing with Alm.

Although going off the prolouge footage, Celica was depressed before meeting Alm, due to the fact that Desaix wanted her dead and she thought Conrad had died in a fire.

On a side note, we find out in that GameXplain livestream, that Celica seems to hate her father, King Lima IV, saying "i'll never think of that man as my father." Maybe it has to do with the fact that King Lima didn't really give a shit about anything, which is what allowed Desaix's rise to power.

Looking at King Lima IV its not a surprise she feels this way plus force her mother into marriage even when she doesn't even love him at all and all the things that happen under his rule.

Edited by Blade Lord Lyn
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1 hour ago, Pitchkart said:

Honestly, based on this observation and what little I've seen of Celica in previews, she ultimately comes across as clinically depressed. :( 

Not telling your allies what they're fighting for strikes me more as her being apathetic and really inconsiderate, rather than depressed. Which is funny, because she's supposed to be the caring one.

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Ok, so regarding this whole thing about Celica not telling stuff to her allies and stuff, i found this on the Wiki and it may be able to explain things:

"Celica is kind and polite, but holds herself back emotionally after a series of traumatic events and familial loss; as a result, she can comes off as cold and stoic. She regrets showing her emotions especially at the few times she lashes out in anger. In her body language in cutscenes and sprites, she's much more subtly guarded and closed-off.

Celica is very lonely, but feels that her loneliness is selfish when she only ever puts those she cares about at risk, and starts out with lingering sense of discomfort at being treated like royalty. She is in a high position as a priestess at Priory, however, she deeply values her acolytes and is extremely close to them, especially in the case of Mae. While she does not outwardly express it, she greatly lacks self-worth, and self-confidence. During the events of the game, Celica bears the heavy weight of saving Zofia as its princess, and all of Valentia as a child of fate, as well as the guilt she experiences after her outburst against Alm in Zofia Castle, both of which take a toll on her emotional composure. She does not feel she deserves the respect her birthright affords, when all that birthright has ever brought her is strife."

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3 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Ok, so regarding this whole thing about Celica not telling stuff to her allies and stuff, i found this on the Wiki and it may be able to explain things:

"Celica is kind and polite, but holds herself back emotionally after a series of traumatic events and familial loss; as a result, she can comes off as cold and stoic. She regrets showing her emotions especially at the few times she lashes out in anger. In her body language in cutscenes and sprites, she's much more subtly guarded and closed-off.

Celica is very lonely, but feels that her loneliness is selfish when she only ever puts those she cares about at risk, and starts out with lingering sense of discomfort at being treated like royalty. She is in a high position as a priestess at Priory, however, she deeply values her acolytes and is extremely close to them, especially in the case of Mae. While she does not outwardly express it, she greatly lacks self-worth, and self-confidence. During the events of the game, Celica bears the heavy weight of saving Zofia as its princess, and all of Valentia as a child of fate, as well as the guilt she experiences after her outburst against Alm in Zofia Castle, both of which take a toll on her emotional composure. She does not feel she deserves the respect her birthright affords, when all that birthright has ever brought her is strife."

^^^^^

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10 hours ago, Armagon said:

Ok, so regarding this whole thing about Celica not telling stuff to her allies and stuff, i found this on the Wiki and it may be able to explain things:

"Celica is kind and polite, but holds herself back emotionally after a series of traumatic events and familial loss; as a result, she can comes off as cold and stoic. She regrets showing her emotions especially at the few times she lashes out in anger. In her body language in cutscenes and sprites, she's much more subtly guarded and closed-off.

Celica is very lonely, but feels that her loneliness is selfish when she only ever puts those she cares about at risk, and starts out with lingering sense of discomfort at being treated like royalty. She is in a high position as a priestess at Priory, however, she deeply values her acolytes and is extremely close to them, especially in the case of Mae. While she does not outwardly express it, she greatly lacks self-worth, and self-confidence. During the events of the game, Celica bears the heavy weight of saving Zofia as its princess, and all of Valentia as a child of fate, as well as the guilt she experiences after her outburst against Alm in Zofia Castle, both of which take a toll on her emotional composure. She does not feel she deserves the respect her birthright affords, when all that birthright has ever brought her is strife."

That doesn't explain anything that has to do with her not telling her allies what they're fighting for. Even if Celica has a tragic past, not telling your friends what they're all fighting for while they risk their lives for her is pretty shitty.

Keep in mind though that I didn't understand everything that was written here, so I don't dare to make any detailed posts until I've read it all in English. However, I have a hard time seeing how they're going to justify Celica asking people to follow her to the edge of the very dangerous continent without knowing why.

"Why are you so obsessed with this one point?" - Because blind loyalty bothers me; Celica hasn't known the vast majority of her allies for very long. One is a sellsword, three more just want to go back home as soon as they can, etc., so I feel like she owes them an explanation. It bothers me that her obviously having talked with the enemy doesn't ring any kind of alarm bells for the rest of the cast outside of Boey, Mae, Saber and Conrad who seem perfectly fine with her keeping her dealings a secret.

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25 minutes ago, Thane said:

That doesn't explain anything that has to do with her not telling her allies what they're fighting for. Even if Celica has a tragic past, not telling your friends what they're all fighting for while they risk their lives for her is pretty shitty.

Keep in mind though that I didn't understand everything that was written here, so I don't dare to make any detailed posts until I've read it all in English. However, I have a hard time seeing how they're going to justify Celica asking people to follow her to the edge of the very dangerous continent without knowing why.

"Why are you so obsessed with this one point?" - Because blind loyalty bothers me; Celica hasn't known the vast majority of her allies for very long. One is a sellsword, three more just want to go back home as soon as they can, etc., so I feel like she owes them an explanation. It bothers me that her obviously having talked with the enemy doesn't ring any kind of alarm bells for the rest of the cast outside of Boey, Mae, Saber and Conrad who seem perfectly fine with her keeping her dealings a secret.

Well, I think everyone's following Celica simply out of loyalty. Mae, Boey and Saber (and probably Genny) all swore loyalty to Princess Celica, so they do as she says. Valbar feels obligated to stick with Celica after helping him with his revenge, so Leon and Kamui follow along; Kamui is less attached, but iirc he joined because the journey sounded fun, and once he started he didn't want to quit halfway. Palla, Catria and Est are all thankful to Celica for going out of her way to save Est, so they decide to join her out of obligation as well. Same story for Atlas and his brother(s?). Jesse was saved from Grieth by Celica and co. Nomah is worried about Celica, and probably bored out of his mind or something; he's relatively unimportant. Conrad is a no-brainer.

The only people who truly have no reason to join Celica are Deen and Sonya. They give their reason as "fuck Grieth", but it's mostly just an excuse. I guess you could say that Sonya has more of a reason than Deen, since she probably would want to defy her father Jedah. Deen is just...there.

Also, Celica didn't tell anyone about her plan to sacrifice herself until after the first fight with Jedah (right before Conrad joins).

Edited by SatsumaFSoysoy
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