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Conquest Tier List Redux - Voting on Gunter

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~Voting Phase~

Rules/Goals:

  • Conquest Hard mode
  • No DLC/Spotpass/Einherjar/Lottery Shop/Invasions etc
  • No Kids or their paralogues.
  • LTC, no absurd set ups (<5-10% chance of success).
  • Reclassing, weapon/item shops, smithy allowed.
  • Have fun!

Right now is the voting phase! Even if you are new/inexperienced with this game/debating feel free to drop a numerical vote with some logic behind it (remember your favourite units aren't necessary the best units =p) and then using averages we can tier smash-bros style. After we've done the initial orderings, which I predict will be popularity based and while it'll definitely be wrong we can reorder people drastically through debate.

That doesn't mean discussion is discouraged while voting! Please use each others thoughts and ideas to help influence your vote - which won't be locked in until next week (1 week per character). It's best to keep an open mind and talk using averages found on the site rather than personal experience. To make it easier for me to find your vote if you could put two hastags before your vote (e.g. ##Avatar: 10) that would be greatly appreciated. Tiers will be spereated by a large numerical difference, votes out of 10 please.

Current standings:

Spoiler

~Top~

Avatar (9.7)

~High~

Jakob (8.0)
Felicia (7.2)

The rules are also open to discussion.

Edited by kirsche

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I'll start things off, I don't want to vote in my opening post because it'll clutter the OP and there's nothing more irritating imo, but if mods are offended by the double post then so be it, just merge them.

##Avatar: 10

Top kek. Don't know how much needs to be explained with this guy? Unlimited reclassing. Great stat spread, good early skills. Amazing the whole game. Was tempted to just assume him top of top in his own tier but don't know how much Camilla will get in comparison so thought it best to allow voting incase the consensus is that she's better =p.

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##Avatar: 10

It's pretty difficult to compete with a unit that can do damn near anything, and well. I can't think of a single task that can't be delegated to MU and accomplished accordingly, especially in LTC (though I think we should be less-LTC and more "efficient turn count" for this tier list myself). 

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Avatar: 10

Utility is the reason why, you can make them whatever you want them to be. Even classes you can't normally have access to on Conquest. Even in their base class, Yato is a great personal weapon, access to tombs as a Nohr Noble and the Dragonstone is useful for magical damage and defense bonuses (which get better with the upgraded Yato you get on Conquest).

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What’s the ruling on forges/food/capture/pre-split? I think a few +1-2 are fine but contested resources, since the smith can transform the right material after combining some. The food seems too inconsistent unless you reset for a good material to harvest. I’m not sure exactly how reliable Capture is. It tends to work after several chapters, even without material bribes, but not consistently? (and sometimes we can’t or don’t want to wait). Currently no strong opinion on pre-split chapters, it only affects a few characters and probably only a bit, but there is still some impact so there should be a decision on this. 

##Avatar: 9.5

Probably the highest 9.5 I’m going to give (I’m thinking 2 others). I’m presently giving a good deal of credit for the lategame bosses kills like C25 and E (and maybe even C27?). Improving the efficiency of the final chapter by a noticeable amount is especially important since you have to also reset 27 which is at least 2 turns. It’s fairly nitpicky but imo it’s appropriate for the best few in the game. 
 
Corrin needs 71 atk to deal 33x2 vs. 65 hp, 26+1 Def. Shadow Yato is 16+1 (wta) +2 (B rank) mt, so 52 is needed from other sources which is pretty doable. A Brave Axe/Lightning user needs to deal 22x3 (4th hit dual guarded) vs. 65 hp, 26+1 Def, 22+2+1 Res, which requires 71/69 atk. Brave Axe is 8+2 (S rank) for 61, Lightning is 1+1 (wta)+3 (S rank) for 64 from other sources. I don’t think 1st gens can easily reach that, though others can correct me. There’s ofc also the possibility of baiting the boss to attack first on enemy phase (not sure AI is consistent), sacrifices (which I personally don’t really like), and double refreshes (I think those will take another turn) so eh. 

C25 is a bigger factor, considering a strat that doesn’t have Corrin do any action, or enter any combat, requires both switches which is quite inefficient. I don’t mind if we choose to mostly ignore this lategame bosskilling in later discussions, but my initial position is it matters since you do have many other options (of who goes for the switches), they are just less efficient. 

Anyways, +Mag Cavalier/Dragon talent can have some Str/Spd troubles early, but has some of the strongest post-Levin/promo game. +Spd Dragon is Jill basically a weaker Camilla (still amazing ofc), and +Spd Cav->Dark Knight doesn’t get Lunge/Trample/flight (Gunter can ferry tho). +Spd Cav->Malig lacks magical damage until Trample (no Axe rank unpromoted for Bolt Axe). I haven’t run +Spd in Hard recently so this is mostly iirc from Lunatic and extrapolating, so could be off depending on enemy stats. +Str Ninja has less move, though has advantages against Ninja and Diviner class enemies, which can matter for chapters like 17 (the very fast clear is an unreliable Killer crit). Silas with A Kaze basically does this build though, if you really want a bulky Ninja. +Hp saves a turn in C1

Corrin can also do Diviner or Dark Mage or a more Supportive build, but my impression is those are noticeably less efficient due to durability/mobility and such. Others more familiar can comment on those strats.

I would probably give Corrin a slightly lower 9.5 than Camilla if the C25 boss doesn’t count much. I usually don’t give 10s unless a character mostly dictates the pace of the game, and has nearly full availability. Don’t think Corrin manages that because if she wants that nice +Mag Malig, her early/midgame is not as good as some others, and other boons/talents have minor issues as well. She does also have some of the pre-split or pre-Camilla chapters, and again much higher mag potential, so it’s still pretty arguable. 

Edited by XeKr

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Ah I forgot about forges. I'll allow smithy but food is way too inconsistent to be tiered appropriately imo.

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Disclaimer in advance that I won't be rating on LTC but rather more generically efficient play. I care much more about who can help the team achieve better, safer performances overall than shaving off a turn with Rescue. Doubt it makes much difference

##Avatar: 9

S/he's very versatile, whether we're talking small-scale (e.g. the ability to use dragonstones or swords) or large-scale (reclassing builds). I have no idea what the "best" build is but I'm sure whatever it is is very effective. Still she only has one really good stat which is gonna hurt when the compeition is people who start super-powerful out of the gate, so 9's probably as high as she can go for me. (I won't have many people above 9.)

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10

You're using exactly one build for CHM LTC Corin ever (+mag draco) so flexibility is not a contributing factor here. That said perfect availability, early flight and top 5 combat potential speak for themselves.

Food is consistent if you gift yourself a hat and use it on Mozu/Peri.

Edited by joshcja

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##Avatar: 9.5

You can make him/her how ever you want to, very reliable, has access to a variety of weapons in their default class and a lot of reclass options since they can Partner Seal anyone with only a 'A' support. 

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Can be whatever they want depending on their supports, can choose whatever you wish for them to have beforehand to tweak their role, has the Grim/Shadow Yato to help with tanking regardless of growths or class, is able to level up easier than most units, has dragon blood and even if not being used can be a good pair-up bot..

9.5/10 can get RNG screwed.

And character rating is 1/10.

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##Avatar: 10

I'm assuming full first-generation recruitment and high efficiency (but not full LTC.)

The Avatar's strengths lie in versatility, not raw power, though s/he's not lacking much in that. Being able to reclass to anything is a huge advantage, and no one else can get even close to that. Add dragon blood, a prf weapon, and starting in what I believe to be the second-best class, skill-wise, in the game, and you have a monster. Avatar is in first place on my list, and one of the two characters I rank as SS-tier.

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Congratulations to Avatar for getting a crazy score of 9.7! Btw what gender is considered best, if any one in particular? This will be an important thing to consider when arguing about Felicia and Jakob. Speaking of which...

Next up is Jakob. I don't really have much of an opinion of him so I will refrain from voting as I believe much of his use comes from reclassing him which is not something I've ever done to much success.

Also would people agree/be opposed with the idea that the tier list should be for drafters? I.e. "the higher the unit, the quicker they should be drafted" type deal?

Also remember to give this topic a follow so you get notified when someone makes a post!

Edited by kirsche

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Female Corrin is in all likelihood better because early Jakob is so so much more useful in the short-term (in the long run Felicia wins, but they both falter as the game goes on vs. other units).

Early Jakob is a serviceable to amazing unit, and one of only two non-child units able use Daggers (beyond the Flame Shuriken) decently without a reclass on CQ. His growth spread isn't ideal with its abundant Skl and Lck, but he is really an offbeat Jagen, and does quite well as this.

Given an immediate Heart Sealing (and you get early ones two on CQ, so it won't be too costly), he'll outdo Silas as a Paladin or Great Knight, and be a clutch unit until Camilla arrives. And even after this, he continues to be a solid ally until Xander shows up and replaces him. Afterwards, you bench him or turn him into Corrin's DS pal with a whopping -5 damage taken +15 avoid as a Pally. (You do miss out on a healer for Ryoma 1, but vulneraries can suffice for the chapter, or you can have Niles bag a Shrine Maiden from an earlier chapter if that is permissible).

If you want to do even crazier things, wed him to Corrin (which can come pretty fast unlike most marriages- they can wed as early as pre-C11 when adding in Mozu's Paralogue) and give Corrin Wyvern Rider. This will let you give Jakob wings and a slew of incredible skills thanks to his unique skill-learning situation- including early Trample for a +5 damage boost on all Hoshidan units except fliers and Mechanists. (The usually crappy Kana and Dwyer would also end up decent- but that is irrelevant here.)

As a Butler, Jakob will be an inferior Kaze as a Dagger user with much less Spd, but Tomebreaker will make him just as good as a mage killer. (A Ninja!Corrin marriage could make him better than Kaze though given early Replicate and Shurikenfaire.) Healing (with Live to Serve making him self-sufficient) is a plus that Kaze would always lack, but Kaze would have his own Lockpick utility. Gentilhomme should be useful for Effie, Corrin, and maybe Camilla. And pre-Kaze, Jakob will still find numerous occasions for his dagger skills and healing alike to come very much in handy.

A late recruit Jakob is virtually worthless, maybe better than a late Felicia, but not by much.

Early Jakob is no Seth or Titania, but can be very useful for roughly half the game before fading out of use or into the role of premier DS material for Corrin. And with some favoritism via one of Corrin's love and one of their preferred Heart choices (Nj or WR), can remain competent as a second tier combat unit.

A good bit of Jakob's positioning depends on how much value you place on the earlygame vs. the late. And whether you find his use of an early Heart Seal and or the stealing of Corrin's metaphorical flower justified. 

##Jakob: 8

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
Dropped him a half point

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Jakob: 7.5

He's intensely good if you reclass him up until the point that you get Camilla, at which point he's just pretty good for a few chapters until Xander arrives. The issue is a lot of what Paladin Jakob can do, Silas can do with Vow of Friendship up (and it's really easy to keep it up in the early game of Conquest) - in other words it's questionable whether that heart seal is better spent on someone else. On the other hand, there aren't a whole lot of units other than him who want a super early seal in the first place. 

I'd wager in terms of LTC that question of whether or not heart sealing him early is viable/preferred is a lot easier to answer as you can't go wrong with a Paladin that early that has those stats. 

He'd be an 8 but he's held back a little by variable availability (not sure why you'd choose to use Felicia but the option is there and she's certainly not a bad unit in her own right) and when he joins late he is almost totally worthless besides his staff rank, unlike his female counterpart who even when joining late can still pair up to Leo and be effective/worth the deployment slot. Another thing hurting his score is the fact that he's pretty mediocre as a Butler (while Maid Felicia is useful for some things since her magic is high).

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Poor Jakob, only two people bothered to vote. Ah well. Average of 8.0 I guess.

In the event that this was just a one off, voting has now begun on Felicia.

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The problem with Jakob/Felicia are that they're dependent on the Avatar's gender, thus being useless half the time.

##Felicia: 7.0 (8.5 with Male Avatar, 4.0 with Female Avatar)

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My Rating for Felicia: 6.5

Felicia can be a good unit, i have her as a secondary healer incase elise gets taken down but she is dangerously frail for her own good. Her usefulness in the long term comes down to 2 things: 1. Are you playing with a Male Avatar or a Female Avatar? 2. Are you going to pair up her with someone that has a magical class? Flora and Odin can give her Dark Mage which is nice but the former is the route's "secret" character (By secret i mean you have to max out a turret around chapter 22) so her availability is scarce for supporting and Odin can benefit more with pairing up someone else such as Elise (which is what i did) or Orochi who can give Ophelia the Basara class which is just friggin amazing. But if you have a female Avatar, her usefulness is very limited, due to her most likely having lacking starting stats compared to the rest of the cast especially since she rejoins at the halfway point of the game in Chapter 16. However, she is an excellent Magekiller that can work very well if you reclass her to Strategist or into a different magical class if you have S+ ranked her with a Male Avatar. She also has four eternal seals slapped onto her for a maximum level cap of 40+! But i can't stress this enough: If you are going to use Felicia, play as a Male Avatar so that you can get the most out of her 40+ total level cap.

Edited by Raccoon844

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##Jakob: 8/10. You can reclass him to Paladin as others have mentioned and that's pretty cool. Even if you want to give that first Heart Seal to someone else, he's solid as a staff user (and your only one in Chapter 12) and can still monkey around with reclasses later to snag L15 skills way before the rest of your army (and some of those, like Inspiration, are quite cool).

 

##Felicia: 7/10. See Jakob, but she's worse early when both are most relevant - no Paladin option, and worse at taking hits and dealing damage. Once you get the Flame Shuriken you can argue she's better, but that's when both are less relevant. Same basic perks of early staff user/promoted character/etc.

 

It's "better" to play as female Corrin because Jakob 1 > Felicia 1 while Felicia 2 >= Jakob 2, but I scored both by their stronger appearance anyway because players are gonna play as whichever Corrin they prefer.

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Felicia:

Inferior to Jakob 1, her extra Magic does extremely little to bolster her healing, not to mention Elise will be outdoing her on this front the entire game. Her better Speed than Jakob is nice, but she has very little Strength for Daggers and can't even hurt mages all that much. When the Flame Shuriken shows up, Felicia can grab it without contest and get a decent offense going, but nothing truly outstanding. Jakob 1 can contribute more valuable utility in every chapter leading up to the CQ Flame Shuriken than Felicia can after it appears.

Her Heart class is Mercenary- Jakob would have been okay with this, but Felicia's poor Strength makes it downright bad for her, beyond the remote possibility of getting three -breakers from her natural classes. It is also decent if you want to use Felicia as a DS bot for a physical Corrin, but you could do better in this regard. A Hearting to Strategist might help her, and early Inspiration is good, but is it worth the Heart Seal? (I'd say no most of the time.) And her potential for steal Corrin's love and is not so great, as magic classes are all she'd want from her lover, and purely magical class sets and classes overall are few, and therefore she would be more likely to get less bang for her buck from Corrin.

Felicia 2 is better than Jakob 2, as she can deal a little more damage with the Flame Shuriken, but honestly their late recruit versions are both bottom tier.

In spite of all this, she joins early and will always debuff, Demoiselle and heal to meaningfully contribute during the earlygame. It helps her potential replacements later down the line Izana and Flora are less than rosy characters too.

##Felicia: 7

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Not really too keen on the two early pre-promotes in general. I hold the unpopular opinion that Felicia 1 is better than Jakob 1. You get to use the Flame Shuriken nice and early, and she transitions nicely into a staff/support role late game. It's nice to have another Demoiselle/Inspiration aura standing around. Pally!Jacob is only really good for early game, and his usefulness doesn't really compare with Silas and Xander. I find that he drops off too quickly to justify the Heart Seal used. 

##Felicia: 7

(fyi: I'd have given Jacob 6.5) 

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Felicia 8.5/10 = one of if not the best anti-mages in the game. Solos sorcerers for days. More useful stat spread then jakob, who specializes in growing out his luck and skill (i.e. pretty much the worst growth spread a character can have). Felicia will get speed, res, and magic--the stats that she actually needs to do her job as a maid. 

PROS:

-better healbot utiltiy then jakob, via superior magic growth

-only character on an LTC run who can effectively use the flame shuriuken--zero opportunity cost to giving this item to her instead of to another character, and she will be doubling + dealing respectable damage with it.

-loads of utility even before she gets the flame shuriuken as a healer, res-tank, and and early game pair-up bot for the avatar. 

-continues to be a competent healer, magekiller, and source of magical damages through the endgame. Is never going to drop off the way Jakob does, when all of his stats except skill and luck are trash.


CONS

-super squishy on the physical end. will die in a single round of careless placement.

-a liability on chapters where you're facing stoneborn, who can straight one-shot her from 5 range with their rock attack.

-faces major competition from kaze as an anti-mage, and from Elise as a healer and dealer of magic damage. Felicia is good, but not vital, because you do have other units that can do her job for her.    

-Felicia's +2 def/res buff to male units is redundant with Elise's, and not useful if Elise is already in buffing range. Whereas Jakob's +2 def/res buff to female units is unique and always useful, unless you went out of your way to get Dwyer or reclass another unit to butler.  

Edited by Shoblongoo

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Sorry for being late, but Felicia scored a solid 7.2/10!

Next is Gunter. How do people weigh his chapter 15 performance? Does letting him gain exp early on hinder us much?

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Gunter:

IS really hated classic Jagens in Fates, and did a number on Gunter, fortunately he isn't as bad in CQ as he is on Rev. 

The sharp experience curve means Gunter can take some kills during the C2 and C3 fights, plus Corrin still has two more chapters of snacking, only Felikob are really affected. And here he is very useful, but I'm not ranking him based on this stuff.

As for his return during C15, well given your only other units are Corrin and Azura, and unless you reclassed Azura into a combat unit (which would be generally seen as bad outside of this chapter), she will be deadweight in the optional southern half of the battlefield due to her Replica!!!!(wanted to do my best Asch interpretation)'s inability to sing. Long story short, Gunter will be contributing in this fight, albeit as a second fiddle to Corrin, Gunter doesn't have the stats to dominate it.

If we assume getting the boss kill is optional, then Gunter is less useful than if we assumed it was. The boss packs a treasured Speedwing, so I think we'd probably be trying for it, but then again, we don't have to get it, there are other ways of boosting Speed.

Chapter 15 is only one chapter though, and beyond that, Gunter is very bad as a standalone unit. SF doesn't have his re-recruitment bases listed, but from what I recall it's like 20 Str and Def and 10 Spd. So Gunter is perpetually doubled with okay durability for his joining time. He has nice classes, nonexistent growths, three very usable weapon ranks, and can probably find a way to contribute in the Ninja, Kitsune, and Izumo chapters, but beyond that his use is in doubt.

Gunter's main use will be in the form of a premier Defensive Stance backup for Corrin thanks to his Personal which gives +3 Atk and +15 Hit. A wonderful selection of Mercenary, Cavalier, and Wyvern Rider makes Gunter able to provide for a physical Corrin's desires fairly well if not perfectly. A magic Corrin wouldn't have such an easy time though (technically Butler from A Jakob could work- but in a non-grind scenario, there is certainly no room to get that). As a frivolous bonus, Gunter has Luna should Corrin pick up Nohrian Trust in the end.

 

Ultimately Gunter's value is defined by how much you treasure his ability to support Corrin. I'm not going to place that high a value on it.

##Gunter: 3 (he can do more as a DS pal than a couple could do independently for their entire existences, but not that many.)

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He's alright I guess. I usually bench him in all but the first two chapters he's in. And oh yes, and I also use him in Ch15 cause there's just yourself and Azura, but that's about it. 

##Gunter: 5 - useable for when needed, but otherwise non-essential. 

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