Jump to content
Mikethemaster

There was consideration of a Avatar or MU

Recommended Posts

56 minutes ago, Mikethemaster said:

Now I love the avatar feature for different reasons but the primary reason is because I love being a part of the story with the cast of character it make it more immersive for me.

So you want an already established work to literally be changed to fit you into the story?

That sounds like a teenager's Sonic OC fanfiction.

 

I am getting *married* in real life because of Awakening. If you think I'm the "no fun allowed" veteran, you should do your research.

The avatar mechanic has its place. In games that is built around it.

Not reducing the quality of an already established narrative.

In Fates they literally could not bear to make you unable to marry anyone. Including siblings they originally advertised as blood siblings.

 

Working the "I'm in the story and I'm relevant" self insert character in previous Fire Emblem games is a terrible idea.

Edited by shadowofchaos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kris is the absolute worst thing in Fire Emblem.

I'm glad they came to their senses and dropped the avatar mechanic. And no, them considering it to Shadows of Valentia is not really evidence of anything. Lot's of things get discussed during development. I'm sure there were tons of crazy ideas discussed that were rejected. These articles that discuss of how developers considered adding X feature always treat the whole things as "X feature ALMOST made it into this game" when it's likely just one of many, many features that were discussed. Unless they come out and say that they were extremely close to adding it, it doesn't matter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Tryhard said:

Firstly, they have a not unsubstantial prologue and gaiden chapters added that solely center around them.

Secondly, the majority of supports in the game are with them, there are few supports between other characters.

The game basically presents My Unit as the secondary protagonist (and honestly, in some respects the primary protagonist) straight from the introduction (where it states "the other protagonist of the War of Heroes", "Marth's confidant and friend", etc). And the worst part is that they still manage to not move past 'a loyal knight who is BFFs with Marth' despite spending a lot of time on them.

For example, Marth was the one to suggest to take Adria Pass in Chapter 17. In FE12, My Unit does, when it makes no real sense why this changed, especially for someone that is apparently ignorant about the world. There is other strange things such as Elice's conversation essentially ripping the piss out of Marth to My Unit.

I really like FE12 but the focus on My Unit in that game is bad.

Firstly, this is why I specified main chapters. The prologue and Gaiden chapters aren't main chapters that were originally in FE3. secondly, the Gaiden chapters do not revolve around the avatar- they revolve around Katarina, who is an entirely separate character, with the arguable exception of the one where Katarina herself is recruited, and the seventh platoon as a whole. The prologue also gives much needed characterization to the 7th Platoon even if it centers around the MU, but the Gaiden chapters are a completely different beast altogether.

Secondly, that's partly due to the Archanean cast not quite being on buddy terms between everyone- I noticed that most people that had connections like Navarre and Feena, Tiki and Bantu, etc had supports when I checked the database; characters like Frost don't have really anyone to talk to. Intsys is even on record, if I recall, saying "We basically added the MU to crank out supports with lone wolves like Ymir".

Elice's mention is actually one of the most critical parts of Marth's character in the entire series.

hes ultimately a character that refuses to show his insecurities and presents a face of professionalism no matter what, and as Tiki says in Awakening, "I suppose it was true that Marth was ruthless and cruel- to himself." This is what I mention being something only barley alluded to by the ending of Star and Savior, where he "refused to shed tears" and presented the face of stability to Altea. He's someone that always believes he can do better but most importantly strives for peace and to see more than enemies standing before him- which is a contrast to his character at the start of FE11, and is a case where they intentionally developed his character between the remakes. FE12 does an absolutely astounding job of doing this with additional dialogue and things like his interplay with Katarina whereas aside from Sheena FE3B2 mostly fell flat on its ass in giving Marth any sort of development in that department. He continued to be mostly an audience surrogate aside from a few scenes which are intact wholly in the remake. Elice's comment is one of the most critical aspects to understanding Marth's character, as is a comment Marth himself makes in the prologue, and Tiki references this in her supports with Lucina in Awakening as does Marth himself as an einherjar.

So basically, Marth is someone that puts aside his own personal wants and feelings and decides to put on a professional face, in spite of his internal emotions, basically putting on the big boy pants while also wanting to avoid casualties altogether if he can help it and create a world of lasting peace.

what parallel world did I wake up in where that = being a wimp? Maybe I'm not explaining things very well here because I'm tired but seriously. Kris has a grand total of 2 interactions where he actually mildly changes things and they're interactions which are far outweighed by all the additional shit they add to Marth's character and the characterization of others- the fact that FE Heroes hasn't been able to really reference any games outside of FE12 for the Archanea casts' dialogue should be pretty telling about how much actual characterization it gave the famous "mutes". Kris did not by any means turn Marth into Chrom like people want to suggest; at the very worst he ruins two interactions in a trade off where Marth gets an additional dozen or so which are unconnected to kris. And one of those interactions is highly contestable.

Edited by Hero of the Fire Emblems

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, shadowofchaos said:

So you want an already established work to literally be changed to fit you into the story?

That sounds like a teenager's Sonic OC fanfiction.

 

I am getting *married* in real life because of Awakening. If you think I'm the "no fun allowed" veteran, you should do your research.

The avatar mechanic has its place. In games that is built around it.

Not reducing the quality of an already established narrative.

Uh what I don't know how having an my unit is considered an sonic OC than all games with an avatar are Sonic OC seem kind of childish but whatever used to fire emblem fanbase being up in arms over a feature like avatar like it an sin. Happy for your marriage but really no need to be so anti-avatar. How am i supposed to do my research on you I could care less about your real life, no offense btw.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Mikethemaster said:

Uh what I don't know how having an my unit is considered an sonic OC than all games with an avatar are Sonic OC seem kind of childish but whatever used to fire emblem fanbase being up in arms over a feature like avatar like it an sin. Happy for your marriage but really no need to be so anti-avatar. How am i supposed to do my research on you I could care less about your real life, no offense btw.

You made an assumption about me.

Do your research by using the search function on the forum.

 

And fix your run on sentences if you want to be taken seriously on this forum. Your generalization of "oh man you guys can't have any fun" shows you haven't even put any coherent thought into how your suggestion is good or bad for a narrative.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

You made an assumption about me.

Do your research by using the search function on the forum.

 

And fix your run on sentences if you want to be taken seriously on this forum. Your generalization of "oh man you guys can't have any fun" shows you haven't even put any coherent thought into how your suggestion is good or bad for a narrative.

Who give a hell about be taken seriously on a free forum. Can't help myself with my  autism when it comes to mine run on sentences. Well imo it seem like every time a person bring up a function from the 3ds era it alway get the flame wars going, I thought this place was welcome to the 3ds games but mybe not, but I might be wrong.

Edited by Mikethemaster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://nintendoeverything.com/fire-emblem-echoes-devs-on-going-forward-with-the-remake-considered-adding-newer-elements-from-the-series/

Thank goodness these guys were wise and ditched the avatar, which wouldn't work in Gaiden anyways. If they do other remakes they better keep the Avatar away from them as well.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Mikethemaster said:

Who give a hell about be taken seriously on a free forum. Can't help myself with my  autism when it comes to mine run on sentences. Well imo it seem like every time a person bring up a function from the 3ds era it alway get the flame wars going, I thought this place was welcome to the 3ds games but my not, but I might be wrong.

Yeah, who cares about being taken seriously when they are talking, only weird people do! We are not here to talk, we are here because oh my gosh look at this keyboard here it would be a waste not to press some random buttons! At least now I understand how you can give your controversial opinion on a delicate subject without even having played FE4. Also, Conquest is easily in my top 3 FE games, and I love Birthright as well so stop assuming stuff. Now.

Many of us are of the opinion that a MU would ruin quite a few old FE games (but not all of them as I stated previously) and you have yet to prove us wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MU wouldn't make sense on a game that is literally tied around the problems of only two main characters. Adding an MU would not allow for a decent or the same story to be told, without actually making the MU a relevant and interesting character, who plays an important part of the story. Some of you might say ",what if the MU doesn't have to be an important character, but instead just someone to aid Alm and/or Celica?" That would be literally the worst idea ever for an MU because no one would want to play or want a character that has absolutely no relevancy to the story, but still manages to play an important part in combat and is the main PoV for the player in the game. Also what's the point of having an MU that probably won't be that customizable or diverse. It'll probably as limited as Fates or Awakening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Koumal8 said:

Yeah, who cares about being taken seriously when they are talking, only weird people do! We are not here to talk, we are here because oh my gosh look at this keyboard here it would be a waste not to press some random buttons! At least now I understand how you can give your controversial opinion on a delicate subject without even having played FE4. Also, Conquest is easily in my top 3 FE games, and I love Birthright as well so stop assuming stuff. Now.

Many of us are of the opinion that a MU would ruin quite a few old FE games (but not all of them as I stated previously) and you have yet to prove us wrong.

Well I guess I haven't I yield you win. I guess this proves one thing fire emblem to some extent is pretty bad with changes to a franchise. I think reddit is a little better than here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Mikethemaster said:

Well I guess I haven't I yield you win. I guess this proves one thing fire emblem to some extent is pretty bad with changes to a franchise. I think reddit is a little better than here. 

Actually, I'm looking forward to the changes the next FE game will bring about: it's exactly what I like about this series. It's not like Pokèmon which continuously adds mechanics onto its core, Fire Emblem adds stuff for a few titles, then removes it, then fixes it, then inexplicably forgets about it etc...

But still it's an honour to be taken as a representative of the whole community of Serenes Forest, thank you good sir ;] 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Mikethemaster said:

Well I guess I haven't I yield you win. I guess this proves one thing fire emblem to some extent is pretty bad with changes to a franchise. I think reddit is a little better than here. 

I'm sorry, but... your first game was Awakening, right? If you had played any of the Fire Emblem games before it, you'd know this isn't the truth. Fire Emblem games change so much between entries, saying they don't do changes is a blatant lie. 

Don't take it too hard, dude. Not saying that some of the users aren't so bitter they bite back without remorse, but you were pretty rude yourself so it was only natural for people to act like that. I guarantee Reddit would rip you a new one too if you had pulled a similar stunt there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Doof said:

I'm sorry, but... your first game was Awakening, right? If you had played any of the Fire Emblem games before it, you'd know this isn't the truth. Fire Emblem games change so much between entries, saying they don't do changes is a blatant lie. 

Don't take it too hard, dude. Not saying that some of the users aren't so bitter they bite back without remorse, but you were pretty rude yourself so it was only natural for people to act like that. I guarantee Reddit would rip you a new one too if you had pulled a similar stunt there.

No it my favorite game out of the fire emblem that  I played I have played all the gba games finish 7-8 I play the ds fire emblem games I played Fates too. I plan to play Echoes whenever I get a job again and get my first pay check.  All those game core mechanic was the same except 11 no triangle I am talking about before 15 came out. Yeah  I probably was out of line but I get heated when people just out right dismiss a feature so harshly that I love. the class changes do up tiers from 2 to 3 and then back to 2 tiers again. Class change been back in since what 8. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with avatars in remakes is that they're going to inevitably change the focus of the story. Just think -- why do people even want avatars in the game? Some people enjoy customizing a character, want to pretend that they are the character, ship themselves with an existing character in the story ... ultimately, it's all just for wish fulfillment purposes. It's to feel like you have a personal stake in it. To insert yourself into a story that existed just fine without you.

People want to be the center of attention. They want to feel important. That's just unavoidable fact. The game developers want to capitalize on this desire. FE as a series has proven several games in a row that they can't make a self-insert avatar without putting in avatar worship. A game that was about a lord or his son becoming a better, stronger person and achieving very difficult tasks suddenly gets sidetracked to how glorious this self-insert is. Now, maybe some people like that, but it does not necessarily make for a good game. People need to be invested in something in which you do not have a personal stake in or can self-insert yourself in, because not everything revolves around you. Sometimes, it's someone else's story.

Ike and Micaiah, who were two of the biggest targets for being called Mary Sue lords before the avatars showed up, have talents that put them above others in their own universes. Ike is not only one of the most powerful beings in his universe, but he also helped bridge the gap between two races that had hated each other for some time, and he took down a goddess. He achieved this just by being a simple, honest, and fair person. Micaiah is the true apostle, can hear the goddess's voice, hailed as the savior of Daein, and becomes Yune's vessel. She's pretty damn important, too, and people also look up to her as a source of strength.

Now, imagine a self-insert being added to Tellius, where they basically muscle Soren out of his job as Ike's tactician and make every decision for Ike, and get all the credit for achieving what Ike actually physically does because they came up with it. Imagine that now, in RD, we find out that the self-insert is Micaiah elder twin and actually the true apostle and they, too, hear the voice of the goddess. Yeah. I'm pretty sure a lot of people would hate that, since that self-insert becomes more Sueish that Ike and Micaiah on their own could ever be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

The problem with avatars in remakes is that they're going to inevitably change the focus of the story. Just think -- why do people even want avatars in the game? Some people enjoy customizing a character, want to pretend that they are the character, ship themselves with an existing character in the story ... ultimately, it's all just for wish fulfillment purposes. It's to feel like you have a personal stake in it. To insert yourself into a story that existed just fine without you.

People want to be the center of attention. They want to feel important. That's just unavoidable fact. The game developers want to capitalize on this desire. FE as a series has proven several games in a row that they can't make a self-insert avatar without putting in avatar worship. A game that was about a lord or his son becoming a better, stronger person and achieving very difficult tasks suddenly gets sidetracked to how glorious this self-insert is. Now, maybe some people like that, but it does not necessarily make for a good game. People need to be invested in something in which you do not have a personal stake in or can self-insert yourself in, because not everything revolves around you. Sometimes, it's someone else's story.

Ike and Micaiah, who were two of the biggest targets for being called Mary Sue lords before the avatars showed up, have talents that put them above others in their own universes. Ike is not only one of the most powerful beings in his universe, but he also helped bridge the gap between two races that had hated each other for some time, and he took down a goddess. He achieved this just by being a simple, honest, and fair person. Micaiah is the true apostle, can hear the goddess's voice, hailed as the savior of Daein, and becomes Yune's vessel. She's pretty damn important, too, and people also look up to her as a source of strength.

Now, imagine a self-insert being added to Tellius, where they basically muscle Soren out of his job as Ike's tactician and make every decision for Ike, and get all the credit for achieving what Ike actually physically does because they came up with it. Imagine that now, in RD, we find out that the self-insert is Micaiah elder twin and actually the true apostle and they, too, hear the voice of the goddess. Yeah. I'm pretty sure a lot of people would hate that, since that self-insert becomes more Sueish that Ike and Micaiah on their own could ever be.

Well I can get that but what was the 7th game I mean even if you Fate three versions that only 6 games with the Avatar system

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, mikethepokemaster said:

Well I can get that but what was the 7th game I mean even if you Fate three versions that only 6 games with the Avatar system

I don't really know what you're trying to say, but if you're saying what I think you are then FE7 was written so that past Lyn's mode the avatar didn't need to exist. They don't interfere with the main story (because Lyn's mode feels more like a prologue than all too connected with Eliwood's and Hector's stories). A game where the avatar is written to be part of the main story has shown that they cannot resist worshipping the avatar past what should be reasonable.

To return to the FE9 example, Soren is basically FE13's Robin in that they're both brilliant tacticians who lead their lord to victory. But Robin gets far more credit than Soren ever got from the other characters and the narrative itself. Chrom's essentially portrayed as a chump who couldn't have accomplished anything without Robin while Ike is remembered for being a hero who could bring people together in a way Soren didn't have the personality for. Chrom's nothing special, whereas the actual special thing about Ike is his brutal honesty and fairness in a world where racism ran rampant, not so much his strength. In a way, FE13 doesn't let Chrom have anything special about him because Robin has to be the center of attention, the true snowflake.

Edited by Sunwoo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

But Robin gets far more credit than Soren ever got from the other characters and the narrative itself.

Soren plays a different role in the story than Robin despite the two sharing the position as the army's tactician.

32 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

In a way, FE13 doesn't let Chrom have anything special about him because Robin has to be the center of attention, the true snowflake.

In what way exactly?  Last I checked Chrom is the protagonist and Robin is the deuteragonist.  Robin mentions several times how they wouldn’t have been able to get to where they were without Chrom.  The story does poorly develop Chrom, and poorly develop in general unfortunately, but the point is still there in the game from what I saw.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I don't really know what you're trying to say, but if you're saying what I think you are then FE7 was written so that past Lyn's mode the avatar didn't need to exist. They don't interfere with the main story (because Lyn's mode feels more like a prologue than all too connected with Eliwood's and Hector's stories). A game where the avatar is written to be part of the main story has shown that they cannot resist worshipping the avatar past what should be reasonable.

To return to the FE9 example, Soren is basically FE13's Robin in that they're both brilliant tacticians who lead their lord to victory. But Robin gets far more credit than Soren ever got from the other characters and the narrative itself. Chrom's essentially portrayed as a chump who couldn't have accomplished anything without Robin while Ike is remembered for being a hero who could bring people together in a way Soren didn't have the personality for. Chrom's nothing special, whereas the actual special thing about Ike is his brutal honesty and fairness in a world where racism ran rampant, not so much his strength. In a way, FE13 doesn't let Chrom have anything special about him because Robin has to be the center of attention, the true snowflake.

Sorry about that, I was talking about the part when you said there was 7 games when IS try the avatar but there are only 6 total with the avatar. there is 7, 12, 13, Birthright, Conquest, and Revelations. I don't see Robin taking credit from chrom they share the spotlight they both get credit for the action they do, I mean the game give you a chose over who get to kill grima well kill grima in Chrom case is to just put him to sleep for 1000 years. I don't get this whole Robin steals chrom spotlight, I get the disdain for the MU on this forum sometime but I really don't see Robin taking Chrom spotlight at all. Chrom is the protagonist while Robin is the 2nd protagonist.  Spotlight stealing is when Kira took over as MC over Shinn in gundam seed Destiny 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Mikethemaster said:

Sorry about that, I was talking about the part when you said there was 7 games when IS try the avatar but there are only 6 total with the avatar. there is 7, 12, 13, Birthright, Conquest, and Revelations. I don't see Robin taking credit from chrom they share the spotlight they both get credit for the action they do, I mean the game give you a chose over who get to kill grima well kill grima in Chrom case is to just put him to sleep for 1000 years. I don't get this whole Robin steals chrom spotlight, I get the disdain for the MU on this forum sometime but I really don't see Robin taking Chrom spotlight at all. Chrom is the protagonist while Robin is the 2nd protagonist.  Spotlight stealing is when Kira took over as MC over Shinn in gundam seed Destiny 

Well...

Robin is the one thing preventing the big bad from reviving, and the TRUE  villain's plot revolves around Robin entirely. Literally the reason Lucina and the kids came back from the future was to prevent Grima from resurrecting and that meant killing the thing that would become Grima, a.k.a Robin

Robin is credited for all victories due to his plans. 

Robin is the only one who can truly bring peace to Ylisse because only him/her can kill Grima for good. Chrom gets the chump choice and he can only put Grima to sleep. Killing the evil dragon god for good is far more spotlight worthy than sealing the evil dragon god for 1000 years.

And even though that choice means giving up his life, Robin STILL gets to revive anyway so basically he saved the world at no loss. 

Chrom is the protagonist, sure, but the important feats go to Robin. Hell, even Lucina, who came back to save the future, gets her spotlight stolen because Robin is the one that kills the dragon (or Chrom).

 

I love Robin (and Chrom), but he sure is VERY important, if not the most important character in Awakening, since the story revolves around him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Spoiler Alert said:

Soren plays a different role in the story than Robin despite the two sharing the position as the army's tactician.

I'm aware. But the point of the matter is that Robin didn't need to get as much credit for his tactical skills as he did.

Just now, Spoiler Alert said:

In what way exactly?  Last I checked Chrom is the protagonist and Robin is the deuteragonist.  Robin mentions several times how they wouldn’t have been able to get to where they were without Chrom.  The story does poorly develop Chrom, and poorly develop in general unfortunately, but the point is still there in the game from what I saw.

Chrom's a strong warrior, but he doesn't show any particular traits that make it so that he's the only one who could've accomplished what he did because of what he was. Going back to Ike, the only reason he accomplished all that he did is because he respected the laguz and beorc as equals and was a pure and honest person who kept to his beliefs. Chrom isn't really a good politician and he's not super charismatic. The only thing that really stands out about him is his unflinching trust in Robin, but that revolves around Robin and is a trait that seems to exist for the sake of glorifying the avatar.

Also, when Grima comes back to life and the choices are Chrom putting Grima to sleep or Robin sacrificing themselves to kill Grima forever, even in Chrom's ending it's about Robin. Chrom tells Robin how they're so important that it's worth the chance Grima will come back one day because future generations can take care of it, and Robin's family has dialogue that basically agrees. And Robin's ending is inarguably the best ending because they defeat Grima for good and get to come back.

Robin is hailed the hero more so than Chrom is at the end of the story, even if Chrom delivered the final blow on Grima. The focus is on how important Robin is to the Shepherds and their family, how important they are to the Grimleal plot, how if Grima manages to merge with them then the world is fucked. Chrom really only got his moment of glory in the first part of the game. He could've had more of a focus in Valm as a contrast to Walhart, if that part was better written. It may not be super obvious that Robin overshadows Chrom, but Robin overshadows Chrom and he's just your biggest groupie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Doof said:

Well...

Robin is the one thing preventing the big bad from reviving, and the TRUE  villain's plot revolves around Robin entirely. Literally the reason Lucina and the kids came back from the future was to prevent Grima from resurrecting and that meant killing the thing that would become Grima, a.k.a Robin

Robin is credited for all victories due to his plans. 

Robin is the only one who can truly bring peace to Ylisse because only him/her can kill Grima for good. Chrom gets the chump choice and he can only put Grima to sleep. Killing the evil dragon god for good is far more spotlight worthy than sealing the evil dragon god for 1000 years.

And even though that choice means giving up his life, Robin STILL gets to revive anyway so basically he saved the world at no loss. 

Chrom is the protagonist, sure, but the important feats go to Robin. Hell, even Lucina, who came back to save the future, gets her spotlight stolen because Robin is the one that kills the dragon (or Chrom).

 

I love Robin (and Chrom), but he sure is VERY important, if not the most important character in Awakening, since the story revolves around him. 

1. True

2. Well he is the brains of the group the group even points out that Chrom is not the most smartest leader

3. True

4. the only important thing Robin do is kill Grima and that is a chose and not forced. I guess yiu could say him being the big bad is important 

but eh.

5. Me too but I still stand by they both move the plot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

To be fair Tracia may be one of the games where an Avater would be more appropriate in the narrative. Doesn't August spell it out to Leif that he's a hero that was made rather than born like Seliph was. In that light an extra pair of shoulders for Leif to lean on wouldn't be out of place.
An avatar taking away the scale of Leif's achievements ala Chris is also less of a concern because Leif's achievements are already quite modest in comparison to other lords. Its Seliph, not Leif who solves the conflict on the peninsula and Leif uniting the kingdoms happens after the events of both Geneology and Tracia have already taken place.

August says Leif needs help, and that's a big part of Leif's arc, but Leif already gets a shit ton of support, and a good portion of the early game development is the world shitting on Leif. Just as he gets his liberation force off the ground, he gets captured by his grandfather's friend, who turns out to be the person who suggested that Trabant murder Quan and Ethlin, and take Altenna for her ability to use the Gae Bolg. Then, his mother figure gets turned to stone before his very eyes, and he spends several chapters on the run from Manster, Thracia and/or the Lopto Sect, which all leads up to Dorias (The OTHER tactician Leif has that people always forget about) sacrificing himself. It isn't until about a third of the way through the game where Leif gets his footing and starts developing more into the leader he eventually becomes, and this comes from several places that existed independently from Leif, like allies from within Thracia, Lopto defectors, and Manster defectors. As weird as it is now that I think about it, people who Leif has known for his entire life have very little impact on his growth.

So at this point, what place would there be for an Avatar in FE5? The only thing that makes any sense, considering this, would be for them to take August's place, which more or less brings us right back to Kris territory.

And the smaller scale is precisely why an Avatar wouldn't work. Like. The whole point of the game is Leif becoming the man his father wanted to be. Quan wanted to unite the Thracian peninsula and thrive in peace. Leif's accomplishments in liberating Manster, his father's kingdom, are intrinsically tied to his character. Everything an Avatar could do to take away from his accomplishments would be just as bad, or even worse, than what Kris did in FE12. The things Kris did in FE12 weren't usually personally tied to the characters he took from. You can say he mostly stole the spotlight for most of it. There's nothing you could do like that in FE5 that wouldn't be directly taking away from Leif's growth.

Unless you simply wanted the Avatar to take the credit for every victory Leif has over bandits, but at that point, why would you even want a self-insert character if they were just the designated bandit-squasher?

Plus, on the meta-level, the events of FE5 lead straight into FE4. Would it not be super weird for Leif to have this super trusted confidant battle-buddy who helped him liberate his country, but then doesn't get represented at all in FE4 when Leif shows up in chapter 7?

15 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think that if dealt with care then an avatar would at least work in Genealogy. Both Sigurd and Seliph leave a niche that a potential Avatar can fill. Sigurd is a fighter first and by no means does he come off as a tactician. Oifey is supped to be that but he's a child and I don't really recall him coming up with any strategies so an Avatar helping Oifey out seems largely harmless to me.

I mean, that does work to some degree, but it goes back to the whole Robin kind of deal, where your self-insert is a great tactician who is solely responsible and constantly praised for the victories of the main protagonists? And how does this work across gen 1 and gen 2? Is the gen 2 self-insert child ALSO a great strategist who does everything and gets constant praise for all of these brilliant strategies?

Plus, Oifey's already a thing and people like him. Don't you think it'd make more sense, be more loyal to the source material, and give the story more integrity if, you... I dunno... expanded his character instead and actually gave him more lines that made him seem like more of a tactician? Instead of introducing a new character that takes away from Oifey's role and invalidates any reason for Oifey to be part of gen 1? I don't see how an Avatar wouldn't be directly taking away from Oifey and his importance to the game, especially in gen 2.

15 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Roy stands out among the lords precisely because of his strategic mind so an Avater strategist would hurt him, but Sigurd doesn't have this problem

A large part of gen 1 is also how Sigurd's impulsive actions actually had dire consequences. It's the one case in the series where a lord's impulsiveness and desire to help his friends actually ends up getting him and most of his friends killed. Sigurd isn't supposed to be a tactician, and Oifey's a young squire who really can only offer suggestions.

You'd lose this if the game somehow spun this into an Avatar's responsibility. Instead, it'd now be "Good job player, your Avatar just got Sigurd burnt to a crisp. All of these orphans are on your hands.".

15 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Seliph starts out his journey as inexperienced and perhaps also a little shy so the Avatar going on to serve as a mentor to serve Seliph the ropes could work. Oifey and Shanan already have this role and I certainly don't think they should lose it but if the Avatar would join these two mentors in a three amigo's sort of relation then that's also an arrangement no character is very harmed by.

Again, why wouldn't you rather just have the roles of Oifey and Shanan expanded, rather than add in another person responsible for making sure Seliph doesn't fuck it all up? Plus, Oifey and Shanan already have a third amigo: Levin. Seliph doesn't need a FOURTH advisor/mentor/tactician.

15 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

That's not to say I want an Avatar in Genealogy. I don't but I also think its kind of inevitable.  If it has a large focus on pairings IS will bring in an Avater.

I actually think it's because pairing already exists that might make FE4 Avatar-free. If you look at reviews for SoV, most reviewers seem to begrudge that the game doesn't have pairing and children. I haven't seen one cause a stink about not being able to self-insert.

FE4 already having children and pairing probably gives it more room to not include OTHER mechanics that people think Awakening added to the franchise.

Edited by Slumber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have people really forgotten how Marth once essentially told General Lang to fuck off (In a polite way of course)? Kris took over that role which was unacceptable. It's not simply "3 or 4 scenes omg". It's that s/he legitimately removes what Marth once did.

Also why is it that Kris gets to see Sirius without his mask? :dry:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Slumber said:

August says Leif needs help, and that's a big part of Leif's arc, but Leif already gets a shit ton of support, and a good portion of the early game development is the world shitting on Leif. Just as he gets his liberation force off the ground, he gets captured by his grandfather's friend, who turns out to be the person who suggested that Trabant murder Quan and Ethlin, and take Altenna for her ability to use the Gae Bolg. Then, his mother figure gets turned to stone before his very eyes, and he spends several chapters on the run from Manster, Thracia and/or the Lopto Sect, which all leads up to Dorias (The OTHER tactician Leif has that people always forget about) sacrificing himself. It isn't until about a third of the way through the game where Leif gets his footing and starts developing more into the leader he eventually becomes, and this comes from several places that existed independently from Leif, like allies from within Thracia, Lopto defectors, and Manster defectors. As weird as it is now that I think about it, people who Leif has known for his entire life have very little impact on his growth.

So at this point, what place would there be for an Avatar in FE5? The only thing that makes any sense, considering this, would be for them to take August's place, which more or less brings us right back to Kris territory.

And the smaller scale is precisely why an Avatar wouldn't work. Like. The whole point of the game is Leif becoming the man his father wanted to be. Quan wanted to unite the Thracian peninsula and thrive in peace. Leif's accomplishments in liberating Manster, his father's kingdom, are intrinsically tied to his character. Everything an Avatar could do to take away from his accomplishments would be just as bad, or even worse, than what Kris did in FE12. The things Kris did in FE12 weren't usually personally tied to the characters he took from. You can say he mostly stole the spotlight for most of it. There's nothing you could do like that in FE5 that wouldn't be directly taking away from Leif's growth.

Unless you simply wanted the Avatar to take the credit for every victory Leif has over bandits, but at that point, why would you even want a self-insert character if they were just the designated bandit-squasher?

Plus, on the meta-level, the events of FE5 lead straight into FE4. Would it not be super weird for Leif to have this super trusted confidant battle-buddy who helped him liberate his country, but then doesn't get represented at all in FE4 when Leif shows up in chapter 7?

I mean, that does work to some degree, but it goes back to the whole Robin kind of deal, where your self-insert is a great tactician who is solely responsible and constantly praised for the victories of the main protagonists? And how does this work across gen 1 and gen 2? Is the gen 2 self-insert child ALSO a great strategist who does everything and gets constant praise for all of these brilliant strategies?

Plus, Oifey's already a thing and people like him. Don't you think it'd make more sense, be more loyal to the source material, and give the story more integrity if, you... I dunno... expanded his character instead and actually gave him more lines that made him seem like more of a tactician? Instead of introducing a new character that takes away from Oifey's role and invalidates any reason for Oifey to be part of gen 1? I don't see how an Avatar wouldn't be directly taking away from Oifey and his importance to the game, especially in gen 2.

A large part of gen 1 is also how Sigurd's impulsive actions actually had dire consequences. It's the one case in the series where a lord's impulsiveness and desire to help his friends actually ends up getting him and most of his friends killed. Sigurd isn't supposed to be a tactician, and Oifey's a young squire who really can only offer suggestions.

You'd lose this if the game somehow spun this into an Avatar's responsibility. Instead, it'd now be "Good job player, your Avatar just got Sigurd burnt to a crisp. All of these orphans are on your hands.".

Again, why wouldn't you rather just have the roles of Oifey and Shanan expanded, rather than add in another person responsible for making sure Seliph doesn't fuck it all up? Plus, Oifey and Shanan already have a third amigo: Levin. Seliph doesn't need a FOURTH advisor/mentor/tactician.

I actually think it's because pairing already exists that might make FE4 Avatar-free. If you look at reviews for SoV, most reviewers seem to begrudge that the game doesn't have pairing and children. I haven't seen one cause a stink about not being able to self-insert.

FE4 already having children and pairing probably gives it more room to not include OTHER mechanics that people think Awakening added to the franchise.

Well your passionate about thracia 776 aren't you which is understandable since it your favorite game. I personally like Mercenary Avatar if they do implant one into other remakes  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Mikethemaster said:

Well your passionate about thracia 776 aren't you which is understandable since it your favorite game. I personally like Mercenary Avatar if they do implant one into other remakes  

Merc/Fighter Kris is the best Kris.

Edited by Slumber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...