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On 27/5/2017 at 7:19 AM, Roy's Our Boy said:

However, he requires a lot of help from the RNG gods to be considered an elite unit as his Strength, speed and defense are average at best and his Skill is blasphemous.

  No one noticed THIS? Keaton's 19Str/16Def bases with 80%-60% at level 15 are "average at best". WHAT? I mean, he has his problems and I'm not sure he deserves to up a rank, I'm not an expert of tier lists, but you make weird points at times. Also, there is no way Silas is inferior to Charlotte: higher move, greater availability, WT control, much better bulk and hit rates (Charlotte averages 80% hit rates against which classes exactly? Pegasus Knights and SPear Masters most likely, probably Sorcerors and Lance-wielding paladins, but any Hero/Swordmaster/SwordPaladin will laugh at her hit rates; also an average hit rate of 80% would still be too suspicious for me to rely on it, though I guess the crit rate makes up for it).

On 27/5/2017 at 7:19 AM, Roy's Our Boy said:

Unfortunately, both these classes are relatively underwhelming which affects her greatly.

Lol what? Heroes are the perfect classes to handle the subpar accuracy of Axes, which are exactly the weapon that Selena needs due her lowish Strength, and they have amazing caps and growth rates (20/15/20/15 in HP/Str/Skl/Spd, I mean... come on!). Bow Knight can go in the trash bin though I guess: mounted bow users in a game with buffed bows and pestiferous enemy Falcon Knights/Kinshi Knights (I'm thinking about Fuga and Hinoka's chapter) doesn't seem any good. Shurikenbreaker also sucks, those Master Ninjas are pretty easy to handle, especially in Lunatic.

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2 hours ago, Roy's Our Boy said:

You are entitled to your own opinion. I'd love to see your reaction to where i would slot rinkah in birthright. But looking at charlotte statistically and practically she is a good unit. I know she isnt perfect especially defensively. But high hp helps mitigrate that a little. She was always a top 5 unit for me on any difficulty. I perosnally believe that anything above 75 percent hit rate is good enough. And she constsntly gets in the 80s. Lunatic is un predictable. You need to get lucky sometimes. Charlotte can really swing a fight. And she hits hard even if she doesnt crit.

That's far from my only issue - you seem to think that Charlotte's good just because you got lucky with her, but personal experience means nothing. Also, again, high HP doesn't mean much when everything hits you hard - just look at all the other fighters in the series. Most of them had high HP and low defenses, and look where it got them. Oh, and Berserkers don't get Death Blow - only Rally Strength. It's Oni Chieftains that get it... And said class has poor distribution.

42 minutes ago, Koumal8 said:

Shurikenbreaker also sucks, those Master Ninjas are pretty easy to handle, especially in Lunatic.

I disagree - I'd rather not have to worry about debuffs making it such that one of my units eventually gets doubled and killed, especially on Lunatic, where debuffs can stack.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:
2 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

Shurikenbreaker also sucks, those Master Ninjas are pretty easy to handle, especially in Lunatic.

I disagree - I'd rather not have to worry about debuffs making it such that one of my units eventually gets doubled and killed, especially on Lunatic, where debuffs can stack.

I was being sarcastic lol, I think Bow Knight is a good class obviously and Shuriken Breaker an AMAZING skill to have

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1 hour ago, Koumal8 said:

I was being sarcastic lol, I think Bow Knight is a good class obviously and Shuriken Breaker an AMAZING skill to have

Coulda fooled me. Anyways, what really bothers me is that most of what the OP is saying is just plain untrue.

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4 hours ago, Roy's Our Boy said:

Please tell me how to use Odin. I have tried everything and he remains useless. Am i missing something? Xanders huge knock is availibility. I know elise is an unpopular pick, but an elite mage is crucial. And i think she can rival any mage in any game because of her absurd growths. Not to mention great availibility. And you can staff spam with her so you dont even have to feed her kills. 

Odin's been pretty consistent for me. I find he's a great Nos tank since he's got pretty decent bulk for a mage. I also like how he has decent skill compared to Elise/Nyx. His personal also makes him a great at critting with Mjolnir.  It's also super easy for him to dip into Samurai early on for Vantage too. For the times he get mag screwed, I just feed Spirit Dusts to him. There's no one else I'd give them too anyway, since he's my main mage, and Elise doesn't need them. On lower difficulties, he makes for a great Swordmaster too. 

Elise, I agree she's a great nuke, after promotion. As a healer she'll promote slightly later on compared to other for me. My biggest issue with her is that low skill stat. Normally I wouldn't care about the skill stat, but it's usually also so low for her, that the hit-chance isn't very good unless without some skill books, and her bulk is so bad that she can't take counters very well. There's many times I've been put off using her to make a kill because if she can't hit, she's screwed from the counter. She's still a solid 8/10 in my books.

I don't think Xander's availability is an issue. As a matter of fact I think he comes in just the right time. I really can't think of early chapters where I felt having a unit like Xander was essential, whereas post Ch16 there's many times I'm glad he's there, in time for tougher enemies. As for his speed, yup it can be a problem, but I'm fine with giving him every last Speedwing if I had to.

 

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I know a lot of people are debating Charlotte. I might not be able to change your mind but here is my final take. 

Statistically, 2nd in Strength growth, 4th in speed (Azura doesn't really count,) 6th in luck, and 1st in HP.  Slightly below average skill growth (mitigated by high base skill for berserkers) and pretty terrible defensively. Very solid stats. Glass cannon but with good health growths (and HP+5 skill.) Unmask is definitely one of the better personal skills in the game and there are a significant amount of female units in the game. 

Now onto practicality. She joins in Chapter 13. 16 of the 27 initial units are lance users on this map. And 0 of the 27 enemies use swords. If you count reinforcements, that's even more lance users. Very easy for her to gain a few levels especially with Takumi locking down Camilla and a lot of Beast Killers to shred Silas. You also get Benny in this chapter who plays a nice support buddy to help out that defense. 

Axe users get access to the Hammer which is really helpful for Chapter 18. Hand Axe is a solid 1-2 range weapon and Tomahawk is a nice niche weapon. I have already made my point about crit but again she crits like crazy. And she turns into a beyblade when she crits (which is pretty damn often. Spin to win)  

A lot of the criticism seems to be directed at Beserkers and axe users in general and not so much her. The class is very volatile. You love it or hate it. Axe users are usually less acurate than the other 2 weapons but with the plethora of Lance enemies, a couple of strong axe users are necessary. Camilla is hands down the best axe user in Conquest. But Charlotte is a solid second choice. High damage, good speed, insane crit, a ton of health, a solid passive, and she turns into a beyblade when she crits (which is pretty damn often. Spin to win), she is a very strong unit and I advise you to give her another look. 

And ya I botched the Keaton strength and defense thing. I was reading Xander's stats instead of his, whoops. I like him a lot and use him as my off- tank bruiser especially when my Benny decides to grow in speed and not in strength (once in a blue moon)     

Edited by Roy's Our Boy

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2 hours ago, Roy's Our Boy said:

I know a lot of people are debating Charlotte. I might not be able to change your mind but here is my final take. 

Statistically, 2nd in Strength growth, 4th in speed (Azura doesn't really count,) 6th in luck, and 1st in HP.  Slightly below average skill growth (mitigated by high base skill for berserkers) and pretty terrible defensively. Very solid stats. Glass cannon but with good health growths (and HP+5 skill.) Unmask is definitely one of the better personal skills in the game and there are a significant amount of female units in the game. 

Now onto practicality. She joins in Chapter 13. 16 of the 27 initial units are lance users on this map. And 0 of the 27 enemies use swords. If you count reinforcements, that's even more lance users. Very easy for her to gain a few levels especially with Takumi locking down Camilla and a lot of Beast Killers to shred Silas. You also get Benny in this chapter who plays a nice support buddy to help out that defense. 

Axe users get access to the Hammer which is really helpful for Chapter 18. Hand Axe is a solid 1-2 range weapon and Tomahawk is a nice niche weapon. I have already made my point about crit but again she crits like crazy. And she turns into a beyblade when she crits (which is pretty damn often. Spin to win)  

A lot of the criticism seems to be directed at Beserkers and axe users in general and not so much her. The class is very volatile. You love it or hate it. Axe users are usually less acurate than the other 2 weapons but with the plethora of Lance enemies, a couple of strong axe users are necessary. Camilla is hands down the best axe user in Conquest. But Charlotte is a solid second choice. High damage, good speed, insane crit, a ton of health, a solid passive, and she turns into a beyblade when she crits (which is pretty damn often. Spin to win), she is a very strong unit and I advise you to give her another look. 

Bold: That's a bold-faced lie if I ever saw one, and you know it. I don't even know how you can insist such stuff with a straight face when it just ain't true... There are like all of two chapters in Conquest with a number of female units that's even worth mentioning, and both of them are loaded with enemies that are easily done in by bows and Beast Killers.

Everything else: Unless you're turtling (which is highly discouraged thanks to an Outlaw who's out for those villages), she won't be seeing much, if any, action in her joining chapter because she starts where you started. Also of note, Takumi doesn't move until he can attack someone, so it's just a matter of avoiding him until I'm ready to face him, then luring him in with someone who won't up and die to a stray crit. And 2 is hardly "a lot of Beast Killers".  Also, let's not forget that she's royally fucked against mages because of WTD and her low resistance.

Hammer access doesn't really win me over since Generals aren't all that common, for one, and two, no matter what, you're most likely gonna need at least two units to kill them thanks to Wary Fighter. Hand Axes and Tomahawks got nerfed, and the latter in particular is rather inaccurate, in addition to having a blind spot. Also, crits aren't something I can really rely on unless I'm having her use one of two weapons that aren't very good, and one of THOSE, in addition to being unavailable in Conquest, is drearily inaccurate (idgaf how high your crit chance is if you can't, you know, HIT WORTH A DAMN).

The only ones of those I can really credit Charlotte with is high damage and speed - her high health? Is backed by weak defenses, and won't save her if she eats a stray critical hit. Her crit? Say hello to "MISS!!" instead because her skill is rather iffy. Solid passive? Say hello to Camilla and Elise's passives. THAT is worth calling a solid passive, not one that virtually never comes into play because most enemies worth noting are male. Also, being axe locked is not exactly ideal, because that means she's shut down by Axebreaker.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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Benny too is too high. Yes he tanks the absolute best of all characters, but he needs to get to General lvl 5 ASAP for Wary Fighter, which can require a bit of babying and possibly an early promotion. Kaze is definitely better than him because the anti-mage niche is a little harder to fill (Niles has WTD and bad 1-2 range, Jakob has to forsake an early jump to Paladin/GK) than physical tank. Plus Kaze is fast and can use a Hunter's Knife to dish out good damage vs. Hoshidan fliers.

One thing not being said about Charlotte is her good Defense Stance boosts, Berserker gives +5 Str and +3 Spd, and adding in her personal boosts gives whoever she weds a total of +8 Str and +5 Spd, that's extremely good.

Beruka's value, wherever she belongs, is in spite of her stats. It's being a natural Wyvern Rider, a class with good skills, nice stats, and flight which justify Beruka's use.

Xander vs. Camilla is dependent on which chapters you consider the worst. Camilla does lost some luster after the midgame where she is crucial, because she can't tank with few worries like Xander, but she remains an offensive beast and incredibly useful, particularly in the Wind Tribe and Hinoka 2 battles.

On Shura, Laslow and Selena are going to need time to work out of E Bows if you make them Bow Knights, Shura starts with a nice C rank for his Killer Bow and can toss around heals, not to mention he comes just in time for the ninja den of evil.

I wouldn't put Izana below Flora. They have comparable bulk and Skill and suffer from the same Speed issues. Flora does have an extra Staff rank over Izana, which combined with the debuffs of daggers and Demoiselle gives her a little more utility. But Izana can grab Lightning or Mjolnir and outdo her offense with the Flame Shuriken (her using a physical Dagger isn't going to amount to much except against mages). I'd call them about equal.

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Seems all the talk is about Charlotte.. what I have found is if she is paired with someone else (like lets say her S rank partner) on average my hit rate was a good 70% against a Berserker.. this is with Great Club added in... (and this was revelation so I added Death blow too just for lols and made her have a 100% crit rate.... on nonfemale enemies too) If I remember correctly... the class that gets swordbreaker is Wyvern Lord? and she can become friends with Beruka.. giving her access to said Swordbreaker.

As for the Great club mentioned... you can get it normally... but through one of two ways, visiting a hoshidian armory through streetpass or (And this is another I think moment) through the renown system.

 

As for Elise, she is defintly Defense/HP screwed, making her a glass cannon, but on most occasions I can have her dish out more damage than Xander, and she is normally fine after a Seraph robe boost, and maybe a dracoshield.

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What kind of run is this tier list for?  Efficiency/LTC is a lot different than something slower.

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1 hour ago, Ronman5 said:

Seems all the talk is about Charlotte.. what I have found is if she is paired with someone else (like lets say her S rank partner) on average my hit rate was a good 70% against a Berserker.. this is with Great Club added in... (and this was revelation so I added Death blow too just for lols and made her have a 100% crit rate.... on nonfemale enemies too) If I remember correctly... the class that gets swordbreaker is Wyvern Lord? and she can become friends with Beruka.. giving her access to said Swordbreaker.

As for the Great club mentioned... you can get it normally... but through one of two ways, visiting a hoshidian armory through streetpass or (And this is another I think moment) through the renown system.

You're getting ahead of yourself there - one, Swordbreaker is a level 15 skill, and thus by the time you have it, whoops, endgame is right around the corner. (For the record, the only characters I'm willing to talk about level 15 skills on are Felicia and Jakob.) Second, you can't buy weapons that are in limited supply from other players' castles. That said, you can get it through VP (I think). Not that it matters because honestly, that's quite the misnomer for a weapon that has some very severe downsides going against it. . .

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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8 hours ago, eclipse said:

What kind of run is this tier list for?  Efficiency/LTC is a lot different than something slower.

Im assuming that you won't be grinding on boo camp. I am also assuming a healthy balance of efficency and potential. Someone who needs to be babied a little won't get knocked too hard and someone who joins strong but with weak potental wont be overinflated. As for play style, i play zone defense and usually breach with 2 teams. I have seen people play man coverage where you asign each unit onto a single enemy and follow them around, as well as 1 giant group, but i stay away from that. I play rather defensivly but am not afraid to step up and take out a vulnurable target when i have to. Playstyle factors in a little as well but i tried to stay objective.

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1 hour ago, Roy's Our Boy said:

Im assuming that you won't be grinding on boo camp. I am also assuming a healthy balance of efficency and potential. Someone who needs to be babied a little won't get knocked too hard and someone who joins strong but with weak potental wont be overinflated. As for play style, i play zone defense and usually breach with 2 teams. I have seen people play man coverage where you asign each unit onto a single enemy and follow them around, as well as 1 giant group, but i stay away from that. I play rather defensivly but am not afraid to step up and take out a vulnurable target when i have to. Playstyle factors in a little as well but i tried to stay objective.

This just doesn't make any sense. If efficiency has any part in this, Charlotte needs to drop faster than a Shedinja that entered into Spikes or Stealth Rock, or got hit with *insert Fire/Rock/Flying/Ghost/Dark move here*. She starts rather underleveled, and doesn't have an easy time catching up. The man coverage part in particular makes negative sense - this isn't football. This is Fire Emblem, where 9 times out of 10, enemies come to you.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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When looking at schemes, the way Nfl defenses work is a good representation (or any team sport). Theres zone which almost everyone plays. Units lock down specific zones and attack the closest enemy when they enter the zone. Man coverage is each unit is asigned 1 high priority unit and they dont attack a new target until the original unit dies. Finally there is Blitz. Everyone rushes the qb (the boss ). Any other enemy units that die are just collateral damage. 

Zone is a balanced playstyle when you want to let the enemy come to you (pretty much 90% of the time). Man coverage is when there are multiple lethal units you have to deal with. Blitz is when you need to rush down the boss as they are by far the biggest threat. (Endgame takumi in CQ and i believe chapter 25 in BR ,the Camilla in the under ground map)

I find it pretty cool that units have so many different playstyles and different units excel in different schemes 

Edited by Roy's Our Boy

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Ss. Plural. Whatever, it's a joke.

Regarding Camilla > Corrin. Despite Corrin's existence for the first 5 chapters or so, I take it's because He/She somewhat pulls his/her own weight, while Camilla is monster-ish right off the bat.

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Camilla's placement in a tier-of-her-own  is well-deserved. She's the best unit in Conquest.

I'd bump Effie up to (S) tier, TBH.   

Charlotte at (A) and Arthur at (C) is silliness. 

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2 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Charlotte at (A) and Arthur at (C) is silliness. 

Agreed. Not that I think Arthur deserves to go any higher, but Charlotte definitely does NOT deserve to be A tier.

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4 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Agreed. Not that I think Arthur deserves to go any higher, but Charlotte definitely does NOT deserve to be A tier.

I know you have a massive hate-boner for all things berserker. But Arthur's early game availability + potential to turn into a late-game murder machine once you start putting levels into him is (B+) material at the absolute lowest.

...Also...

Peri is over-ranked (iffy availability. joins underleveled, and a point where you need to bench probably better units to use her. frontline unit with bad defense)

Silas is over-ranked (great early game unit. drops off in the midgame. benchable if room is needed for new units by around the time you recruit shura and xander)

Felicia is criminally underranked.

And Beruka's not THAT bad. (she's really only held back by the fact that she needs a second seal to be serviceable, as she shines in the fighter >>> berserker line but is strictly outclassed by Camilla as  a dragon knight). If you aren't saving your second seal for another unit and can afford to give her the reclass, pop a seal and she's good-to-go.

 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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52 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

I know you have a massive hate-boner for all things berserker. But Arthur's early game availability + potential to turn into a late-game murder machine once you start putting levels into him is (B+) material at the absolute lowest.

...Also...

Peri is over-ranked (iffy availability. joins underleveled, and a point where you need to bench probably better units to use her. frontline unit with bad defense)

Silas is over-ranked (great early game unit. drops off in the midgame. benchable if room is needed for new units by around the time you recruit shura and xander)

Felicia is criminally underranked.

And Beruka's not THAT bad. (she's really only held back by the fact that she needs a second seal to be serviceable, as she shines in the fighter >>> berserker line but is strictly outclassed by Camilla as  a dragon knight). If you aren't saving your second seal for another unit and can afford to give her the reclass, pop a seal and she's good-to-go.

 

I'd agree if the risk vs reward associated with Arthur was anywhere near the point where the reward outweighs the risk, which it isn't (ditto for Berserkers in general). 

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3 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

I know you have a massive hate-boner for all things berserker. But Arthur's early game availability + potential to turn into a late-game murder machine once you start putting levels into him is (B+) material at the absolute lowest.

...Also...

Peri is over-ranked (iffy availability. joins underleveled, and a point where you need to bench probably better units to use her. frontline unit with bad defense)

Silas is over-ranked (great early game unit. drops off in the midgame. benchable if room is needed for new units by around the time you recruit shura and xander)

Felicia is criminally underranked.

And Beruka's not THAT bad. (she's really only held back by the fact that she needs a second seal to be serviceable, as she shines in the fighter >>> berserker line but is strictly outclassed by Camilla as  a dragon knight). If you aren't saving your second seal for another unit and can afford to give her the reclass, pop a seal and she's good-to-go.

 

I was mainly looking at their main classes. If you bring in heart/friendship/marrige seals, things get really muddy and it would really come down to just a numbers game. Think of it like older fire emblem games where you are locked to your main class and promotion. I know i gave a few dlc reccomendations, but that didnt affect the ranking in any way.

And as for felicia, i almost always use male corrin just for her. I like the higher heals and bonus magic user. I also think her character is really baller. But she really doesnt do any damage until the flame shuriken and she pretty much is a utility unit until then.

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Felicia does not meaningfully heal better than Jakob. She has 3 more magic, which means she heals 1 more HP per action. She also has 20% more growth, which means by Level 16 the gap is 2 points and by Level 31 the gap is 3 points. Big deal.

Jakob having 2 more HP, 2 more Def, and 3 more Strength all make him considerably more useful in the earlygame, and that's without considering his better reclass options.

 

4 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Peri is over-ranked (iffy availability. joins underleveled, and a point where you need to bench probably better units to use her. frontline unit with bad defense)

Aside from Beruka I'm not sure who below her is better. Her defence is more average than bad and her str/speed are quite good, plus cavalier is a great class. She's certainly better than the mercenaries for instance.

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49 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Aside from Beruka I'm not sure who below her is better.

Arthur, Selena, Beruka, Laslow, and Felicia2--i would all place solidly above peri

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I'll focus on Laslow since they join at the same time making that the easiest comparison. Peri is quite easily superior to Laslow. They join with rather similar base stats, but Peri is in a better class. She has lances and swords where Laslow just has swords. She has 2 less strength but Elbow Room means it's 1 more strength in practice (before any consideration for her weaponry). She has 2 extra move, and Shelter which is pretty great. She is also 2 levels lower... and despite that Laslow's only stat wins are in Skill (mitigated to a significant degree by Peri having more weapon triangle control), luck, and HP, hardly the stats you would want to be winning in a direct comparison. Peri's growths (and 2 extra levels to gain) then give her a significant lead in speed and to a lesser degree strength, which means she ends up with a better stat build in a better class. And for all that you criticsed her defence for a front-liner, Laslow's is no better at base and falls behind when Peri promotes to Great Knight and he doesn't (barring a Xander Friendship Seal or similar).

Though the comparison isn't as direct, I don't see what Selena offers that Peri doesn't either, aside from some marginal C10-11 contributions. Being a mono sword user kinda sucks in Conquest since there's only one Kodachi and we're already using Corrin (though you could reclass him/her to a non-sword user to be fair), and Selena has quite low strength to boot.

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