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9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'll focus on Laslow since they join at the same time making that the easiest comparison. Peri is quite easily superior to Laslow. They join with rather similar base stats, but Peri is in a better class. She has lances and swords where Laslow just has swords. She has 2 less strength but Elbow Room means it's 1 more strength in practice (before any consideration for her weaponry). She has 2 extra move, and Shelter which is pretty great. She is also 2 levels lower... and despite that Laslow's only stat wins are in Skill (mitigated to a significant degree by Peri having more weapon triangle control), luck, and HP, hardly the stats you would want to be winning in a direct comparison. Peri's growths (and 2 extra levels to gain) then give her a significant lead in speed and to a lesser degree strength, which means she ends up with a better stat build in a better class. And for all that you criticsed her defence for a front-liner, Laslow's is no better at base and falls behind when Peri promotes to Great Knight and he doesn't (barring a Xander Friendship Seal or similar).

Though the comparison isn't as direct, I don't see what Selena offers that Peri doesn't either, aside from some marginal C10-11 contributions. Being a mono sword user kinda sucks in Conquest since there's only one Kodachi and we're already using Corrin (though you could reclass him/her to a non-sword user to be fair), and Selena has quite low strength to boot.

I’ll make the case for Laslow above Peri, I guess.

…Here’s the thing about Laslow and Peri.

By the time you get them, you should have a full squad of units that are substantially better then them, at their current level. You get them and they’re immediately serviceable. But you’re in a position where you have to justify benching someone to put work into either one. And they’ll drop off rather quickly if you don’t immediately start putting work into them.

The question then becomes: what is this unit going to contribute to my team, If I level them, to justify building up this unit from scratch and benching a unit I've already started putting work into?

…Peri gets you a frontline unit with poor survivability and—well—that’s it.  Not a whole lot else going on for her. Shelter utility I guess; Silas and Xander do that better.

…Laslow gets you another bow user. And Conquest is EXTREMELY stingy with its bow users. Whereas niles is not going to get much in the way of strength growth and is usually going to wind up relying on the shining bow if you’re still using him by the endgame, Laslow actually hits hard on the physical end with his bows. His most direct competition in this role is Selena, whose prone to getting strength screwed, and who performs better as a tank in the hero class with defensive growths and access to sol.

Laslow as a bow night answers kotaro’s ninjas, Hinoka’s skyknights, ryoma’s ninjas ninjas, and has generally good utility as a ranged attacker with high mobility.

Defense is not a liability for him as it is for Peri because Bows—he doesn’t need to be exposing himself on the frontline to do his job.

And the otherwise underwhelming [rally skill] ability of the Bow Knight has good synergy with his personal skill—effectively letting you rally for +1 STR/ +4 SKILL / +1 SPD in a single action.

Making Laslow a respectably decent rallybot.

This can justify benching a unit to add him to your squad.

On the other hand—I just can’t ever imagine a scenario where I’d want to bench a unit to use Peri.

Edited by Shoblongoo

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57 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

I’ll make the case for Laslow above Peri, I guess.

…Here’s the thing about Laslow and Peri.

By the time you get them, you should have a full squad of units that are substantially better then them, at their current level. You get them and they’re immediately serviceable. But you’re in a position where you have to justify benching someone to put work into either one. And they’ll drop off rather quickly if you don’t immediately start putting work into them.

The question then becomes: what is this unit going to contribute to my team, If I level them, to justify building up this unit from scratch and benching a unit I've already started putting work into?

…Peri gets you a frontline unit with poor survivability and—well—that’s it.  Not a whole lot else going on for her. Shelter utility I guess; Silas and Xander do that better.

…Laslow gets you another bow user. And Conquest is EXTREMELY stingy with its bow users. Whereas niles is not going to get much in the way of strength growth and is usually going to wind up relying on the shining bow if you’re still using him by the endgame, Laslow actually hits hard on the physical end with his bows. His most direct competition in this role is Selena, whose prone to getting strength screwed, and who performs better as a tank in the hero class with defensive growths and access to sol.

Laslow as a bow night answers kotaro’s ninjas, Hinoka’s skyknights, ryoma’s ninjas ninjas, and has generally good utility as a ranged attacker with high mobility.

Defense is not a liability for him as it is for Peri because Bows—he doesn’t need to be exposing himself on the frontline to do his job.

And the otherwise underwhelming [rally skill] ability of the Bow Knight has good synergy with his personal skill—effectively letting you rally for +1 STR/ +4 SKILL / +1 SPD in a single action.

Making Laslow a respectably decent rallybot.

This can justify benching a unit to add him to your squad.

On the other hand—I just can’t ever imagine a scenario where I’d want to bench a unit to use Peri.

I dont agree with the benching idealogy. You take 15 units plus Corrin into the last chapter. Peri could easily be a bottom 5 unit at worst. And on top of it all she is a cav. Cavs in any game are always elite (except in the nba finals) and fates is no exception. Yes she is worse than the other 2 and effie if she becomes a great knight, but she offers a lot of value with her speed as she can consistently double. I like Laslow a lot but his growths are too wonky and he doesn't excel in anything. Selena might be a more legit argument but she hits like a wet noodle when she first joins. Plus she is pretty squishy. 

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Laslow needs promotion (or a Friendship/Partner Seal) to even start on building a bow rank. Niles has had bows since Chapter 8. Shura is only a few chapters off (probably joining soon after Laslow's promotion), and possibly Nina as well; both join with bow ranks. If you want a project bow-user who starts at E rank, Mozu exists: she can get started before Laslow and has rather clearly better stats once she gets rolling.

Niles doesn't actually have much less strength than Laslow; about 4-5 less when both are Bow Knights. Considering he will have access to better bows AND has about 6-8 points more speed (often the difference between doubling and not), I think it's fair to say Niles is the one with better offence as a bow user, in addition to his utility advantages (Locktouch, Move+1, Capture vs. a slightly stronger Rally).

I'm not really seeing what an archer with mediocre speed and no bow rank until promotion offers my team, or many others. Conquest isn't that archer-starved.

On the other hand it's easy to see what Peri offers the team: more cavaliers/Shelter-users is never a bad thing, and she actually has a good stat build (she is strong in two of the three most important stats and average in the third). If you're allergic to any frontliners with less-than-great def (but for some reason don't mind raising Laslow as a Merc for 8 levels with the same durability) then that's your prerogative, but it doesn't make her a bad unit.

I also disagree that benching someone in chapter 13 is that hard. You have 15 units who join before Laslow/Peri (assuming you got them all and none have died), and can use 10 in Chapter 13, so you'd have to bench six of them by now to use Peri (or Laslow). Arthur is a frontliner who is squishier than Peri (he may have 1-2 more Def, but luck/res are a thing). Mozu will often not be bothered with. Both dark mages are highly problematic (Odin is middling across the board, Nyx is horrid at everything that isn't Mag/Spd). Selena is basically Peri with slghtly shifted stats (a bit more def/spd, a bit less atk) but a far worse class. Kaze has 7 less effective strength (as well as weaker weapons) than Peri which is huge at this point. Silas vs. Peri at this point will depend on how Silas's early levels have treated him. And so on. Any of these units are reasonable to bench at this point, as well as potentially anyone else who the RNG hasn't been kind to (except Corrin, Camilla, and Azura) of course.

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On May 29, 2017 at 5:36 PM, Roy's Our Boy said:

A lot of the criticism seems to be directed at Beserkers and axe users in general and not so much her. The class is very volatile. You love it or hate it. Axe users are usually less acurate than the other 2 weapons but with the plethora of Lance enemies, a couple of strong axe users are necessary. Camilla is hands down the best axe user in Conquest. But Charlotte is a solid second choice. High damage, good speed, insane crit, a ton of health, a solid passive, and she turns into a beyblade when she crits (which is pretty damn often. Spin to win), she is a very strong unit and I advise you to give her another look.

I din't have anything against axe users in general (as long as they don't suck, that is), but as I see it, Berserker is the absolute worst class in Fates because the crit evade penalty is a damning weakness (FFS, it's even worse than a Stealth Rock weakness, and we all know how big a deal THAT is), and it thus makes them a high risk, low reward class, because of how much more valuable and potent critical hits are for the enemy than they are for you. Also, considering when Charlotte comes in, I just don't think it'd be worth having to bench a superior unit to use her.

On May 30, 2017 at 0:38 PM, Roy's Our Boy said:

When looking at schemes, the way Nfl defenses work is a good representation (or any team sport). Theres zone which almost everyone plays. Units lock down specific zones and attack the closest enemy when they enter the zone. Man coverage is each unit is asigned 1 high priority unit and they dont attack a new target until the original unit dies. Finally there is Blitz. Everyone rushes the qb (the boss ). Any other enemy units that die are just collateral damage. 

Zone is a balanced playstyle when you want to let the enemy come to you (pretty much 90% of the time). Man coverage is when there are multiple lethal units you have to deal with. Blitz is when you need to rush down the boss as they are by far the biggest threat. (Endgame takumi in CQ and i believe chapter 25 in BR ,the Camilla in the under ground map)

I find it pretty cool that units have so many different playstyles and different units excel in different schemes 

The analogy doesn't work because everything happens at once in football, whereas only one side makes its moves at a time in FE - and that's ignoring all of the other nuances football has.

1 hour ago, Shoblongoo said:

I’ll make the case for Laslow above Peri, I guess.

…Here’s the thing about Laslow and Peri.

By the time you get them, you should have a full squad of units that are substantially better then them, at their current level. You get them and they’re immediately serviceable. But you’re in a position where you have to justify benching someone to put work into either one. And they’ll drop off rather quickly if you don’t immediately start putting work into them.

The question then becomes: what is this unit going to contribute to my team, If I level them, to justify building up this unit from scratch and benching a unit I've already started putting work into?

…Peri gets you a frontline unit with poor survivability and—well—that’s it.  Not a whole lot else going on for her. Shelter utility I guess; Silas and Xander do that better.

…Laslow gets you another bow user. And Conquest is EXTREMELY stingy with its bow users. Whereas niles is not going to get much in the way of strength growth and is usually going to wind up relying on the shining bow if you’re still using him by the endgame, Laslow actually hits hard on the physical end with his bows. His most direct competition in this role is Selena, whose prone to getting strength screwed, and who performs better as a tank in the hero class with defensive growths and access to sol.

Laslow as a bow night answers kotaro’s ninjas, Hinoka’s skyknights, ryoma’s ninjas ninjas, and has generally good utility as a ranged attacker with high mobility.

Defense is not a liability for him as it is for Peri because Bows—he doesn’t need to be exposing himself on the frontline to do his job.

And the otherwise underwhelming [rally skill] ability of the Bow Knight has good synergy with his personal skill—effectively letting you rally for +1 STR/ +4 SKILL / +1 SPD in a single action.

Making Laslow a respectably decent rallybot.

This can justify benching a unit to add him to your squad.

On the other hand—I just can’t ever imagine a scenario where I’d want to bench a unit to use Peri.

Aside from everything DHE mentioned, I can't agree with the rallybot point - if his personal rally is rather underwhelming (and it is), what makes you think that adding Rally Skill will be that much of an improvement??? Also, I don't agree with Selena being better off as a Hero just because of Sol access, because Sol is rather underwhelming.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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40 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Laslow needs promotion (or a Friendship/Partner Seal) to even start on building a bow rank. Niles has had bows since Chapter 8. Shura is only a few chapters off (probably joining soon after Laslow's promotion), and possibly Nina as well; both join with bow ranks. If you want a project bow-user who starts at E rank, Mozu exists: she can get started before Laslow and has rather clearly better stats once she gets rolling.

Niles doesn't actually have much less strength than Laslow; about 4-5 less when both are Bow Knights. Considering he will have access to better bows AND has about 6-8 points more speed (often the difference between doubling and not), I think it's fair to say Niles is the one with better offence as a bow user, in addition to his utility advantages (Locktouch, Move+1, Capture vs. a slightly stronger Rally).

I'm not really seeing what an archer with mediocre speed and no bow rank until promotion offers my team, or many others. Conquest isn't that archer-starved.

On the other hand it's easy to see what Peri offers the team: more cavaliers/Shelter-users is never a bad thing, and she actually has a good stat build (she is strong in two of the three most important stats and average in the third). If you're allergic to any frontliners with less-than-great def (but for some reason don't mind raising Laslow as a Merc for 8 levels with the same durability) then that's your prerogative, but it doesn't make her a bad unit.

I also disagree that benching someone in chapter 13 is that hard. You have 15 units who join before Laslow/Peri (assuming you got them all and none have died), and can use 10 in Chapter 13, so you'd have to bench six of them by now to use Peri (or Laslow). Arthur is a frontliner who is squishier than Peri (he may have 1-2 more Def, but luck/res are a thing). Mozu will often not be bothered with. Both dark mages are highly problematic (Odin is middling across the board, Nyx is horrid at everything that isn't Mag/Spd). Selena is basically Peri with slghtly shifted stats (a bit more def/spd, a bit less atk) but a far worse class. Kaze has 7 less effective strength (as well as weaker weapons) than Peri which is huge at this point. Silas vs. Peri at this point will depend on how Silas's early levels have treated him. And so on. Any of these units are reasonable to bench at this point, as well as potentially anyone else who the RNG hasn't been kind to (except Corrin, Camilla, and Azura) of course.

...I think you're overstating the value of adding Peri to your roster by a priori writing off units you get before her, and understating what you lose by not continuing to use them.

Like--okay--Nyx and Odin are terrible (without DLC anyway. Dark Flier Odin is boss, and Witch Nyx can put in work). Bench immediately. 

But Kaze??? Arthur??? I'm thinking long-and-hard before I retire those badboys. 

And if we're considering the availability of children that makes it even harder to justify raising Peri, at a time when she's first going to start catching up to the rest of your army as you're looking to Cut lagging Gen 1 units to make room for Gen 2. Now you're looking at even fewer empty mid to late-game teamslots. And now you have a unit with very flexible availability who outclasses her completely in Sophie. (Silas tends to be one of the first units on any given playthrough to hit S-Support)

Edited by Shoblongoo

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3 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

...I think you're overstating the value of adding Peri to your roster by a priori writing off units you get before her, and understating what you lose by not continuing to use them.

Like--okay--Nyx and Odin are terrible (without DLC anyway. Dark Flier Odin is boss, and Witch Nyx can put in work). Bench immediately. 

But Kaze??? Arthur??? I'm thinking long-and-hard before I retire those badboys. 

And if we're considering the availability of children that makes it even harder to justify raising Peri, at a time when she's first going to start catching up to the rest of your army as you're looking to Cut lagging Gen 1 units to make room for Gen 2. Now you're looking at even fewer empty mid to late-game teamslots. And now you have a unit with very flexible availability who outclasses her completely in Sophie. (Silas tends to be one of the first units on any given playthrough to hit S-Support)

Likewise, I must ask, what does Arthur bring to the table that makes up for the fact that he's prone to randomly liquefy because he's vulnerable to crits??? Because as far as I'm concerned, he's a reset hazard. Also, I think you overvalue availability.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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Laslow makes for a pretty decent ninja too, even if you do go for L5 Hero ---> Heart Seal to Ninja. It makes him like Saizo, with a bit better stat spread (imho).

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Elise will have 6 skill if you promote her at 10. That is not even remotely acceptable, even with forges. It isn't acceptable in hard mode, so I don't know how you can justify it in Lunatic. Sure, taking risks is good and all, but Silas/Effie/Niles/Leo don't really have to take risks and I think you're ignoring that.

Silas and Effie should be in the same tier: they won't double but they won't die. Technically Silas has a better chance of doubling (he only has 10% less spd growth and his base/class line (paladin) is better for it). If either doubles they kill, if either doesn't they don't. They're tanky enough that they can use the pair up attack option to kill people they don't double. Just merge A and A-.

Charlotte cannot be A while Selena is B-. Let's look at your analysis:

Spoiler

She is a solid unit all around although is relatively squishy. Her skill and luck growths help her dodge consistently. Even though she is statistically better as a Hero, making her a Bow Knight gives you a much needed second bow unit as well as additional movement and the base speed on top of her outstanding speed growths can make her dangerous. Unfortunately, both these classes are relatively underwhelming which affects her greatly.

Spoiler

Even when she first joins, giving her a killer axe gives her insane crit numbers. Her strength growth is elite and her skill is well above average so she hits hard and hits often. If you are willing to sacrifice her hit rate for gamble and a great club, her crit rates can reach between 80-90 %. Her high health and solid defense keep her alive for multiple fights as a Berserker (although Sol is very useful as a Hero, you miss out on death blow and loses a lot of her crit). Magic users are an issue though as her resistance leaves her vulnerable: If you could somehow get vantage on her (either through MC marriage or skill inheritance) she literally cannot lose a fight. Probably one of the most broken things I’ve seen.

Selena is "relatively squishy" while Charlotte has "high HP and solid defence". Selena has 24/11 HP/Def with 40/45% growths, respectively, at level 10. Charlotte has 28/8 HP/Def with 65/20%, respectively, at level 10. How on earth is Selena squishy but Charlotte not? Selena takes 3 less damage from each attack so anything that 2HKOs her will 2HKO Charlotte. It's actually easier to 2HKO Charlotte (needs 22 atk, which 3 hits Selena). Selena gets 3HKO'd by enemies with 19-22 atk, Charlotte 18-21 etc.

This assumed that Selena is still at base level for chapter 13 when she's had 3 chapters, one of which was a defence chapter, to level. So she's likely getting 3HKO'd while Charlotte gets 2HKO'd. This picture only gets worse because Selena's defence is gonna skyrocket. and def is far more important than HP. Mages are also less of an issue for Selena, though both will likely get 2RKO'd by the stronger ones.

But let's make some more comparisons: Selena's defence growth is higher than Silas' and at level 10 Silas' has a ~65% chance of having 12 or less def, and has a ~65% chance of having the same amount of HP or less. This is hardly a lead which is going to get smaller! This means she is almost as tanky as Silas, except wait, she has WTA against the deadliest units (axe users), later on may have better 2 range as a bow knight along with sol and good fortune. So Selena is basically as tanky as Silas. We can even pair her up with Beruka and turn her into a wyvern for extra tankiness if she really is that squishy =p.

Now for offence:

Level 10 Selena w/ Iron Sword (C rank): 19 str, 112 Hit, 4 Crit, 15 Speed
Level 10 Charlotte w/ Steel Axe (C Rank): 27 Str, 79 Hit, 13 Crit, 10 Eff spd.

If Selena can double then the enemy needs 12 defence or more for the Str lead to be significant. Hang on, that becomes significantly less if Selena is not the person who initiated combat or if Selena has a +str pair up (e.g. Beruka). This is also BASE Selena when Selena is likely to have had 3+ levels. And look at that hit. I guess that's 89 when paired up but damn, she's gonna be facing <50% displayed (which is even lower true) at times and with a not so great defence she can't risk leaving enemies alive.

Now later on this will quickly dwindle, I will admit: Charlotte's offensive stats are very good. But Selena is not weak, certainly doesn't have noodle arms. "A" Swords and counterattacking gives her +6 str lategame on the enemy phase or she can move to axes. A Beruka support can compound on this and fix her lacklustre attack and give her a bit of MoV. Selena is also more flexible: she can move to Bow Knight to get bows and thus a solid 2 range option.

So Selena completely outclasses Charlotte in durability all game, is better offensively for a little bit (easily 1-3 chapters), comes earlier and has a nice class option in Bow knight (no this is not a mediocre class lmao) and yet is 4 tiers below Charlotte? How is this justifiable? No being able to crit the occasional enemies Camilla/Avatar/Elise/Xander miss every so often is not acceptable, heck those units are unlikely to leave anything behind for Charlotte to clean up because they have more mobility than her, which may even be flight mobility. If Selena pairs with Beruka (not even sure this is an optimal pairing btw) then Selena basically has flight too.

EDIT: LOL BASE GROWTH RATES. Fucking whoops I was wondering why everyone has these low growth rates. Well she's still almost as tanky as Silas but he'll almost certainly have 12 def by level 10. Also Charlotte does escalate faster than I thought but tbh I still don't think Selena's offence is that bad *shrug*.

I blame this error on reclassing. Dumb mechanic.

Edited by kirsche

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Frankly, I agree with a good amount of this list.

Elise has always been a beast, and every play through (which is admittedly few) she has capped magic as a Troubadour, and by extension become nearly one of the best Magic users in Conquest.

Charlotte has also been incredibly useful in all of my files. She almost always doubles, has an insane critical rate, and very high strength. Her main flaw is defense and resistance, which she makes up for with high HP.

Also, I noticed a small error:

On 5/27/2017 at 1:19 AM, Roy's Our Boy said:

Odin – His growth rates make sense in the context of the story as he is an axe user that switches to a magic user.

It should say sword.

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1 hour ago, Rex Glacies said:

Frankly, I agree with a good amount of this list.

Elise has always been a beast, and every play through (which is admittedly few) she has capped magic as a Troubadour, and by extension become nearly one of the best Magic users in Conquest.

Charlotte has also been incredibly useful in all of my files. She almost always doubles, has an insane critical rate, and very high strength. Her main flaw is defense and resistance, which she makes up for with high HP.

Also, I noticed a small error:

It should say sword.

Even though the OP's reasoning is (at least mostly) flawed and poorly supported? I seriously fail to see what makes Charlotte A tier when she comes in underleveled (level 10 in chapter 13, which she happens to be a late arrival in, and Conquest stops using unpromoted enemies entirely in chapter 18), in addition to having trouble hitting anything that isn't an armor. Also, as I said earlier, high HP only does you so much good when you have low defenses to back it up.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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22 hours ago, Rex Glacies said:

Frankly, I agree with a good amount of this list.

Elise has always been a beast, and every play through (which is admittedly few) she has capped magic as a Troubadour, and by extension become nearly one of the best Magic users in Conquest.

Charlotte has also been incredibly useful in all of my files. She almost always doubles, has an insane critical rate, and very high strength. Her main flaw is defense and resistance, which she makes up for with high HP.

Also, I noticed a small error:

It should say sword.

I'm glad someone else sees the intrinsic value of both Elise and Charlotte. Elise can snipe people from the back line and Charlotte's defensive stats don't really matter if she can one shot most enemies. On paper they might not look that impressive, but in practicality, they are the highest damage dealers in the game. 

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1 hour ago, Roy's Our Boy said:

I'm glad someone else sees the intrinsic value of both Elise and Charlotte. Elise can snipe people from the back line and Charlotte's defensive stats don't really matter if she can one shot most enemies. On paper they might not look that impressive, but in practicality, they are the highest damage dealers in the game. 

There you go again, completely ignoring the problems they have (Elise's inability to attack before promotion and her completely awful durability, and Charlotte's being underleveled and joining rather late [as I said earlier, she comes in chapter 13 as a level 10 unit, and she essentially has only 3 chapters before the game takes the kid gloves off], and her accuracy problems [it doesn't matter how powerful she can get if, you know, she can't hit and kill enemies and thus level up]). I mean, I love Elise and all, but I'm not nearly deluded enough to think she's an A tier unit.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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4 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

There you go again, completely ignoring the problems they have (Elise's inability to attack before promotion and her completely awful durability, and Charlotte's being underleveled and joining rather late [as I said earlier, she comes in chapter 13 as a level 10 unit, and she essentially has only 3 chapters before the game takes the kid gloves off], and her accuracy problems [it doesn't matter how powerful she can get if, you know, she can't hit and kill enemies and thus level up]). I mean, I love Elise and all, but I'm not nearly deluded enough to think she's an A tier unit.

If the tier goes S-> A in which S is Camilla, Corrin, Jakob, Azura then Elise at A actually made sense

 

Just not for the combat. High Mov, Aura, using Staff gets her theres easilly(Staff in this game is kinda strong last i remember)

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Is Arthur's low luck that much of an issue? The last time I remember, I had access to 2-3 Goddess Icons by around Chapter 12, and I think there might have been more along the way. And there is also the question of who else need them besides him, which I am struggling to find an answer to. Not to mention...are Bronze Weapons not a thing for compensating on critical dodge?

Edited by henrymidfields

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4 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

Is Arthur's low luck that much of an issue? The last time I remember, I had access to 2-3 Goddess Icons by around Chapter 12, and I think there might have been more along the way. And there is also the question of who else need them besides him, which I am struggling to find an answer to. Not to mention...are Bronze Weapons not a thing for compensating on critical dodge?

I know its generally frowned upon to consider availability of stat boosters when tiering characters, on grounds that using a stat booster on any one particular unit comes at the opportunity cost of not being able to use it on any other units. And any unit can use them.
 

I do feel however, for the above-cited reason, that it is appropriate to consider the availability of goddess icons when tiering Arthur.  For the simple reason that Arthur is without competition as a character that receives a significant and immediately noticeable spike in performance from the use of goddess icons; no other unit is going to suffer from not getting the Goddess Icons you feed to Arthur, and there is no real opportunity cost to giving Arthur every goddess icon you come across.

…concerning Elise…

It really does not matter that she has low skill. Her hit rate is only going to be unusably bad if you give her high Mt, low accuracy tomes. But her magic is so good she doesn’t need them. You can send her out with only the lowest mt, highest accuracy magic—she’s still a nuke.

…add in a set of skills that passively buffs the rest of your army just by hanging around…

…add in staffbot utility on a horse…

 

…add in her early availability and lack of competition…

Elise’s tiering is perfectly justified. Even if you never get her tomes above E rank and just wind up using her as a healer + passive stat buffer, she’s going to low-key be one of the most useful units on your team.

 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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16 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

Arthur is without competition as a character that receives a significant and immediately noticeable spike in performance from the use of goddess icons; no other unit is going to suffer from not getting the Goddess Icons you feed to Arthur, and there is no real opportunity cost to giving Arthur every goddess icon you come across.

-Lck Corrin when not using a Dragonstone? Kaze? Not a lot for sure, but both are very good characters, Corrin has solid durability overall, and Kaze can on a couple of occasions play magic tank.

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5 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

Is Arthur's low luck that much of an issue? The last time I remember, I had access to 2-3 Goddess Icons by around Chapter 12, and I think there might have been more along the way. And there is also the question of who else need them besides him, which I am struggling to find an answer to. Not to mention...are Bronze Weapons not a thing for compensating on critical dodge?

Ya adding on top of what Ursaring said, stat boosters really muddy up the results. You could potentially make anybody a super unit with enough boosters. But you are right that a couple goddess icons make Arthur substantially better. The point of not using stat boosters was to unbiasly judge characters without too much favoritism. Thats how I am trying to get through birthright to do another tier list. No stat boosters and benching Ryoma really shows everyone else's true value.

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11 hours ago, JSND said:

If the tier goes S-> A in which S is Camilla, Corrin, Jakob, Azura then Elise at A actually made sense

 

Just not for the combat. High Mov, Aura, using Staff gets her theres easilly(Staff in this game is kinda strong last i remember)

Fair enough, I guess. I wouldn't have had as much issue with her placement if he chose the right arguments.

5 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

Is Arthur's low luck that much of an issue? The last time I remember, I had access to 2-3 Goddess Icons by around Chapter 12, and I think there might have been more along the way. And there is also the question of who else need them besides him, which I am struggling to find an answer to. Not to mention...are Bronze Weapons not a thing for compensating on critical dodge?

Yes it is - he starts at only 1 luck and it takes two points of luck to equal one point of crit evade. His shit tier personal doesn't help matters, with it putting him down 5 Cev. That means he needs THREE Goddess Icons to get out of the hole his personal puts him in. As for other units who'd like them, how about Kaze or Niles?

41 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

I know its generally frowned upon to consider availability of stat boosters when tiering characters, on grounds that using a stat booster on any one particular unit comes at the opportunity cost of not being able to use it on any other units. And any unit can use them.
 

I do feel however, for the above-cited reason, that it is appropriate to consider the availability of goddess icons when tiering Arthur.  For the simple reason that Arthur is without competition as a character that receives a significant and immediately noticeable spike in performance from the use of goddess icons; no other unit is going to suffer from not getting the Goddess Icons you feed to Arthur, and there is no real opportunity cost to giving Arthur every goddess icon you come across.

…concerning Elise…

It really does not matter that she has low skill. Her hit rate is only going to be unusably bad if you give her high Mt, low accuracy tomes. But her magic is so good she doesn’t need them. You can send her out with only the lowest mt, highest accuracy magic—she’s still a nuke.

…add in a set of skills that passively buffs the rest of your army just by hanging around…

…add in staffbot utility on a horse…

 

…add in her early availability and lack of competition…

Elise’s tiering is perfectly justified. Even if you never get her tomes above E rank and just wind up using her as a healer + passive stat buffer, she’s going to low-key be one of the most useful units on your team.

 

On Arthur: See above response. Goddess Icons don't do jack nor shit for him thanks to his personal - he goes from facing crit chances from everything to... facing crit chances from everything. I dare say it's a pity that what you say gives Arthur a "notable spike in performance" turns out to be... underwhelming!

On Elise: I guess I can look at it that way - I was doubtful because OP was hyping her up for the wrong reasons.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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Honestly Arthur is always in a weird position for me since his PU is so hilariously Op that its worth raising him to L10 just for that

 

Niles, for example(generic A tier unit) would drop all the way to B/C if not for Arthur

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6 hours ago, Roy's Our Boy said:

Ya adding on top of what Ursaring said, stat boosters really muddy up the results. You could potentially make anybody a super unit with enough boosters. But you are right that a couple goddess icons make Arthur substantially better. The point of not using stat boosters was to unbiasly judge characters without too much favoritism. Thats how I am trying to get through birthright to do another tier list. No stat boosters and benching Ryoma really shows everyone else's true value.

Would it be worth at least making a mention, even without any tier adjustments? Considering that no one else is going to majorly benefit from the Goddess Statues (For example, Avatar is going to be top tier regardless. I can check my Avatar in my LP as he is -Luck.) I personally think this should be treated as an exception as @Shoblongoo mentioned, but ultimately it is your chart, and therefore your call.

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19 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

Would it be worth at least making a mention, even without any tier adjustments? Considering that no one else is going to majorly benefit from the Goddess Statues (For example, Avatar is going to be top tier regardless. I can check my Avatar in my LP as he is -Luck.) I personally think this should be treated as an exception as @Shoblongoo mentioned, but ultimately it is your chart, and therefore your call.

Bold: I disagree there - I can think of at least three others, all of whom get some actual benefit from them.

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24 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Bold: I disagree there - I can think of at least three others, all of whom get some actual benefit from them.

I bet you none of them will make the same jump in viability that Arthur will... not that I'm defending him (great unit, terrible earlygame).

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26 minutes ago, Hylian Air Force said:

I bet you none of them will make the same jump in viability that Arthur will... not that I'm defending him (great unit, terrible earlygame).

Enlighten me then, because I fail to see that scrub making anything even remotely worth calling a "jump in viability" when he's still a critblick waiting to happen. . .

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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7 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Enlighten me then, because I fail to see that scrub making anything even remotely worth calling a "jump in viability" when he's still a critblick waiting to happen. . .

Conceivably, turning Arthur into and Armor Knight through Effie should give him enough defense to tank any crits his personal should attract. As long as the crit doesn't come from an effective weapon (which you would be stupid to put a knight against someone with an Armorslayer), he should be able to survive one or two. If you aren't reclassing, give him a Bronze Axe, or a Frying Pan if you find one (10 avoid and dodge, something he needs). I will concur that in Communist Emblem, he is average at best, but LTC and efficiency are hardly the standard playstyle of Fire Emblem.

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17 hours ago, Hylian Air Force said:

 (great unit, terrible earlygame).

That's a fair description of Arthur, IMO.

The weak early game holds Arthur back just enough to make him an A Tier unit, IMO, because with his start time, if he was as consistently useful from the moment you get him as he is once he gets going, he’d be  S-Tier worthy (i.e. this is why I think Effie should be S-Tier. You get her on the first chapter of conquest. She’s immediately going to stand out as one of your best units. As long as you keep using her—and there’s no reason not to—she’s never going to drop off. There’s never going to be a point in the game where Effie isn’t an amazing frontline tank + murderer of squishies. Then she gets even more abusable when she promotes and learns wary fighter. I really want to hear the argument for why Effie does NOT deserve to be S-Tiered as one of the best units in Conquest, but thats a topic for another day)

…back to Arthur…a few more things to note…

1)            His weak early game can be somewhat mitigated by immediately dropping his [gamble] skill, and reequipping it only after he promotes to berserker + gets his killer axe.

+10 crit / -10 hit @ base 78% hit + 6% crit is kinda janky.

+10 crit / -10 hit @ base 92% hit + 65% crit? Yes sir.

2) He joins in the same chapter as and makes an optimal pair-up partner for Effie. Effie will give him some much-needed early game bulk, before his macho man growths start to kick-in, while Arthur will very often buff Effie’s already great strength to a level that turns 3HKOs into 2HKOs and 2HKOs into 1HKOs.

 

3) Briefly mentioned above by another poster and bares repeating—Arthur’s pair up bonuses are nuts.  His berserker pair-up is like +7 str / +4 Spd, or something stupid.

4) While some of the early game chapters are unkind to him, he still finds sufficient opportunities to grab the EXP he needs to take-off between Mozu’s Village + Ft. Dragonmaw + The Sevenfold Sanctuary + Palace Macarath. On the more troublesome early game chapters where Arthur has a hard time sticking around and finding opportunities to grab kills, he will always still be good as a pair-up bot for physical units in general and Effie in particular.

In any event; he should always be ready to promote sometime around the Ninja Ship or the Den of Betrayal. And once he promotes, he is going to be one of the best units on your team.

 

5) Conquest gives you a Dual Club on Chapter 10. This is a great boost to the general viability of axe users on the route—they are the only class with access to a weapon that reverses weapon triangle and are deceptively versatile because of it. (all the other dual weapons are only available in Birthright and Revelations, or via DLC)  

At the time you get this item you have three potential users: Camilla, Beruka, and Arthur. (and a bit later, Charlotte)

Camilla is the best unit in the game with her thunder and basic axes—she doesn’t need it. You are wasting a weapon that could make another unit much more dangerous by giving it to her.

…Beruka starts with D-Rank Axes and can’t even use the dual club until she levels up a weapon rank…

That leaves Arthur—if you’ve been using him and putting weapon rank on him for the past 4 chapters—as the wielder of the club. And without competition as the wielder of the club or unless you use charlotte, put a weapon rank on Beruka, or for some inexplicable reason decide that Camilla isn’t already good enough at murdering things.

…and with that its almost like Arthur gets a little mini promotion-before-his-promotion; once he has the club he picks up a ton of utility that he previously lacked and is suddenly contributing much, much more to the team.

The availability of the Dual Club in chapter 10 helps him so much, I’d go so far as to say he’d be B-rank without it. (to reiterate; I think he's worthy of A Rank)

But its available. And this is Fates, where weapon durability is unlimited, so from-there-on-out its going to be available to him for the rest of the game.

…You will of course eventually recruit other viable axe users, who want to use the club. But by then Arthur should be a berserker with a killer axe and a tomahawk; at that point hes finneeeeeeeee. With or without the club.

I’d include the availability of the dual club in Arthur’s viability in the same sense that we include the availability of the Flame Shuriuken in Felicia’s (not a perfect comparison because Felicia is at all points in the campaign the ONLY one who would ever want to pick up the Flame Shuriuken on a typical playthrough--without obscure children or gimicky reclassing--but u see what I’m getting at)   

 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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