JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 (edited) So as you all know i;m somewhat obsessed with Ursula, because i like using broken unit. On the other hand there is Olwen, yet another broken unit that i don't have. Originally i did these calcs for lulz and giggles, but i thought about it a bit and these numbers shouldn't go to waste Overview Arguably the best GHB Unit in the game right now(with only Zephiel and Xander as a challenger for this claims due to their scoring potential), Ursulame role as a Blue Tome user is usually overshadowed by Reinhardt, a notorious unit for many because of how easy he is to use. Just give Deathblow and/or HC and you win the game, and apparently he had way more than that. Since you can't offer an animal sacrifice for Reinhardt to kidnap as in Thracia, this isn't likely to change. But for players who happen to not have Reinhardt, theres a decent chance they found out that Ursulame is in fact quite Ursulawesome. By giving her Blarblade, and sticking her with Hone Cavalry, you get one of the most potent offensive unit in the game with a really reasonable power level. The Blarblade Ursula is the core point of Horse Emblem squad, alongside Gronnblade Cecilia due to their amazing accesibility and offensive potential. Personally, i have managed to reach 4800 score range off the back of a budget version of this build, while running 3 Horses, and an Armor, so its certainly quite effective if i do say so myself. Then theres Olwen, Olwen and Ursula both runs in the "fast Blue Tome" Archetype, with practically identical stats spread, for anything that isn't ATK(Ursula is better), and SPD(Olwen is better). Olwen is a pull unit, while Ursula is a GHB, so Olwen can get ATK boon to make her as a whole, better than Ursula. That being said, +ATK Olwen is the optimal pick, while Ursula is free. So now heres the question, if +ATK Olwen is the best, how much worse is Ursula? Is Ursula even good at all? Is Ursula anywhere close to unoptimal Olwens? Thats what we're going to explore using FEH combat simulator numbers. Comparison between starting set: +Ursula comes with an acceptable A slot of Deathblow 3, to Olwen's Warding Blow in A slot. Generally speaking, offensive abilities are the way to go, so this is an advantage on Ursula favor, and it helps that DB3 is a pretty rare skill -On the flipside, Olwen comes with Ward Cavalry, a pretty useful skill but not as impactful as Fortify for offensive potential, and Reposition, the best skill in the game . Note that Reposition is extremely common if you get a bunch of Selena and Barst, one of which is alvailable for free. Oh yeah, Olwen have Dire Thunder, but we are not here for Dire Thunder. We are here to make the most optimized build for Odin . For this topic, i will limit the coverage to: Death Blow, Darting Blow, and Life and Death, all 3 of them being the only non-LE. offensive skills alvailable, outside of Fury 3. Due to the nature of the build and skills, calculations are mainly done on the offense, with some ranged match up as a sidenote. Heres a quick rundown on how 2 Ursula Emblem: First you apply Hone Cavalry. Then maybe you apply Fortify Cavalry Then ask yourself these question 1. Does it move? >Yes: Kill it >No: Go find something to kill >Its Hector: Ignore him outside Desperation 2. Does it have Distant Counter? >Yes: Is it Effie? >> Yes - Did you pack 2 Buff? >>>> Yes - Kill her >>>> No - This is why you pack a Green >> No - You one shot all of them anyway > No: Go to 1 and choose Yes >Its Hector: Losing to Hector in 2017 3. Did you just attacked? >Yes: Reposition OP >No: Go and attack or get into position >Its Hector: Did they survive? >> Yes: please don't have WIngs of Mercy or Vantage :( >> No: Hector is Hector It works 100% of the time. Seriously speaking, if it wasn't obvious, you should run Ursula with Horse Buff, so this forces you to bring at least 2 Horses. Thankfully all that second Horse need to do is to offer Hone Cavalry and Reposition to bring Ursula into a scary offensive potential. Third and Fourth slot is flexible, a third horse brings Ursula into the very top of offensive potential in the game, but for BST optimization you can start running Armors and Infantries. As a whole, you want to make use of positioning abilities to get the right angle, then proceed to Swap or Reposition or Draw Back and get ready for the next turn. with 5 Panel coverage, its fairly easy to make an optimal use of Ursula's insane coverage. Mobility is everything. Unit who acts as a Bait is effective as a pairing to ensure you can set up the map in favorable position. Within Horse Emblem you have units such as Xander, Frederick, and Gunter to somewhat play the role. Cecilia can be customized to cover a lot of meta units, so she's a surprisingly effective unit for this despite what her stats suggests. While there are some threats you can afford taking hits from, generally speaking you are aiming to win the game without taking any hit. This can be achieved through Horse Buffs stacking, one shotting, WTA, and mobility skills. Build: C skills are flexible and for this build you will basically run Cavalry buff. Assist skills, run Reposition, its broken, i love it. B Skills, well theres... Breaker for specialized targeting, then theres Desperation to negate losses, E Route and WoM is there, and Vantage can potentially be cheesy when you have like 70 attacks. Special, you would probably use Moonbow for its cooldown, and because it comes from Odin. Alternatively Blazing Thunder is 300 SP for Arena scores So this leaves you with a very straightforward build lineout: Odin died for our sins Weapon: Blarblade/+ Assist: Reposition/Draw Back/Ardent Sacrifice Special: Moonbow/Blazing Thunder Passive A: Death Blow 3/Darting Blow 3/Life and Death 3/Life and Death 2 Passive B: Breaker Skills/Vantage/Escape Route/Desperation/Wings of Mercy Passive C: Ward/Hone/Fortify/Goad Cavalry Since A Slot is what we are going to cover, i'll give my opinion on B slot. Budget build, either coming from only packing Blarblade, or through running only Hone should run Lancebreaker or Blue Tome Breaker. While it is potentially redundant, currently Blue are extremely strong, and 2 of the dancers are Blue. Desperation is going to be mainly an Anti Hector measure and are usable in both situation. These calculations are done for these two unit as dictated by the A slot skill choices. Blarblade as the weapon of choice since it did not require an Odin promotion to 5* Hopefully you can pick up something from these and i convinces you to invest and Usesula. How many more low quality Ursula puns i can made before i run out of idea Deathblow 3 Hone Cavalry Deathblow 3 Olwen vs Vanilla Cast - 106 wins · 2 losses · 22 draws +ATK - 115 wins · 2 losses · 13 draws +SPD - 107 wins · 2 losses · 21 draws Ursula vs Vanilla Cast - 105 wins · 2 losses · 23 draws 4 Buff Deathblow 3 Olwen vs Vanilla Cast - 121 wins · 2 losses · 7 draws +ATK - 123 wins · 2 losses · 5 draws +SPD - 124 wins · 2 losses · 4 draws Ursula vs Vanilla Cast - 123 wins · 2 losses · 5 draws Hone Cavalry Deathblow 3:+ATK Olwen > +SPD Olwen > Neutral Olwen > Ursula 4 Buff Deathblow 3: +SPD Olwen > Ursula = +ATK Olwen > Neutral Olwen Darting Blow 3 Hone Cavalry Darting Blow 3 Olwen vs Vanilla Cast - 106 wins · 2 losses · 22 draws +ATK - 115 wins · 2 losses · 13 draws +SPD - 107 wins · 2 losses · 21 draws Ursula vs Vanilla Cast - 112 wins · 2 losses · 16 draws 4 Buff Darting Blow 3 Olwen vs Vanilla Cast - 120 wins · 2 losses · 8 draws +ATK - 124 wins · 2 losses · 4 draws +SPD - 120 wins · 2 losses · 8 draws Ursula vs Vanilla Cast - 122 wins · 2 losses · 6 draws Hone Cavalry Darting Blow 3: +ATK Olwen > Ursula > +SPD Olwen > Neutral Olwen 4 Buff Darting Blow 3: +ATK Olwen > Ursula > +SPD Olwen > Neutral Olwen Life and Death Life and Death 3 Hone Cavalry Life and Death 3 Olwen vs Vanilla Cast - 117 wins · 2 losses · 11 draws +ATK - 120 wins · 2 losses · 8 draws +SPD - 117 wins · 2 losses · 11 draws Ursula vs Vanilla Cast - 117 wins · 2 losses · 11 draws 4 Buff Life and Death 3 Olwen vs Vanilla Cast - 124 wins · 2 losses · 4 draws +ATK - 125 wins · 2 losses · 3 draws +SPD - 124 wins · 2 losses · 4 draws Ursula vs Vanilla Cast - 125 wins · 2 losses · 3 draws Hone Cavalry Life and Death 3: +ATK Olwen > The rest 4 Buff Life and Death 3: +ATK Olwen = Ursula > The Rest LnD3 Analysis Hone Cavalry match up: On the Offense: Red: Olwen and Ursula misses a kill on Zephiel. FE6 is confirmed canon Green: Olwen and Ursula can't safely initiate to Hector and Robin-F. Desperation fixes Hector, but Robin-F is unfixable. A bunch of high res Greens survived, namely Hawkeye, Sheena, Narcian, Fae, Arthur, Camilla, and Julia. Hawkeye, Sheena, Narcia, Faye, Arthur, and Camilla is in range of a finishing second combat. Julia is on advantage, but if she failed to win on initiation, Julia loses to Ursula's moonbow counter initiation. Olwen is hopeless against Julia even with moonbow, and failed an Anna kill. Blue: Ursula left Linde at 1 HP. Olwen ORKO Linde through doubling. Effie survives Colorless: Thats the WHOOOLE cast Conclusion: Lancebreaker for Effie, Desperation for Hector, BlueTomebreaker Ursula for Linde. Swordbreaker for Zephiel is the choice to cover the non winning match up Ranged Defenses: Red: Lilina 2HKO, Raigh does heavy damage. The rest is 3HKO and above Blue: Blarrwolf Ursula wins. Linde draw against Ursula, loses against Olwen through doubling Green: All Greens Mages had potential to 2RKO, that being said Robin F is the only one who can win in one round, but is 2RKO'd Colorless: Keep them away from Brave Bow+ user. Rebbeca and Faye can naturally survive a round of combat against Ursula, but not Olwen. Dagger is mainly a 2HKO, but all of them got one shot while Staves deals relatively little amount of damage outside of Wrathful Staves, and mainly Lucius and Genny 4 Buff Match Up: On the Offense: 5 Unit survives Ursula: Narcian, Hector, Arthur, Titania, and Robin F Robin F and Hector counterkills Neutral Olwen is the same as Ursula, missing out on an extra Effie Kill +ATK Olwen is identical to Ursula before overrides, and merges. Ranged Defenses: Red: Raigh and Lilina stands out as a possible 2HKO and 3HKO respectively. None of them can win Green: Boey 3HKO. The rest 2HKO. Robin F is the only winner, with a one shot Blue: As ussual, Ursula with her Wolf Tomes can OHKO Blade Ursula, and Olwen. Colorless: Again, Brave Bow+ is instant death, but now Faye, Rebecca, and Setsuna are within range of Hone ATK to secure KO. Niles is hopeless. And interesting thing to note for Staves match up is that Lucius outdamage Genny WITHOUT Wrathful Staff Vantage Potential with LnD3 and 4 Buff: To analyze Vantage Potential, what i do is to check what ranged units are one shot by Ursula and Olwen at 1 HP with Vantage Olwen Neutral Olwen: 41 wins · 12 losses · 0 draws +ATK Olwen: 43 wins · 10 losses · 0 draws Ursula 43 wins · 10 losses · 0 draws Override Initiation Results for 4 Buff LnD3: vs Fury 3 and +SPD: +SPD Olwen: 123 wins · 1 losses · 6 draws +ATK Olwen: 123 wins · 1 losses · 6 draws Neutral Olwen: 119 wins · 1 losses · 10 draws Ursula:120 wins · 1 losses · 9 draws vs +ATK, Distant Counter, Hone ATK buff +SPD and Neutral Olwen: 109 wins · 21 losses · 0 draws +ATK Olwen: 111 wins · 19 losses · 0 draws Ursula: 111 wins · 19 losses · 0 draws +ATK, Distant Counter, Hone ATK buff +10 Merges +SPD Olwen: 97 wins · 32 losses · 1 draws +ATK Olwen: 102 wins · 27 losses · 1 draws Ursula: 100 wins · 27 losses · 3 draws vs +ATK, Distant Counter, Hone ATK and Hone SPD buff +10 Merges +ATK Olwen: 95 wins · 27 losses · 8 draws +SPD Olwen: 94 wins · 32 losses · 4 draws Neutral Olwen: 85 wins · 32 losses · 13 draws Ursula: 92 wins · 27 losses · 11 draws vs +ATK, Distant Counter, Hone ATK, Hone Res, and Hone SPD buff +10 Merges +ATK Olwen: 85 wins · 32 losses · 13 draws +SPD Olwen: 88 wins · 35 losses · 7 draws Neutral Olwen: 81 wins · 27 losses · 22 draws Ursula: 75 wins · 34 losses · 21 draws vs Fury 3, 4/4/4/4, +SPD Nino, Tharja, Linde with Blade+ at +5 Merge: Tharja: Onesided Dead Linde: 2 sided one shot Nino: Ursula deals 24 Damage, Olwen deals 21 Damage as Neutral, 25 Damage as +ATK. They lose. Life and Death 2 Hone Cavalry Life and Death 2 Olwen vs Vanilla Cast - 115 wins · 2 losses · 13 draws +ATK - 118 wins · 2 losses · 10 draws +SPD - 115 wins · 2 losses · 13 draws Ursula vs Vanilla Cast - 115 wins · 2 losses · 13 draws 4 Buff Life and Death 2 Olwen vs Vanilla Cast - 124 wins · 2 losses · 4 draws +ATK - 125 wins · 2 losses · 3 draws +SPD - 124 wins · 2 losses · 4 draws Ursula vs Vanilla Cast - 123 wins · 2 losses · 5 draws Hone Cavalry Life and Death 2: +ATK Olwen > The Rest 4 Buff Life and Death 2: +ATK Olwen > +SPD Olwen = Neutral Olwen > Ursula Overview: Ursula mainly either ties with Olwen, or better than everything but +ATK Olwen outside of Life and Death 3. The only exception is if you use Life and Death 2, where Olwen is superior in every way to Ursula, being on par with Hone as a Neutral and +SPD. In the build that is arguably the most optimal, which is Life and Death 3 with 4 Buff, Ursula is on par with +ATK Olwen, and better than any other Olwen. With merges factored in, Ursula always loses to +ATK Olwen, but she keeps up just fine to Olwen as you stack Merges and Buffs. Ursula did not struggle to keep up with Olwen in an extremely stacked situation until you are facing againts Distant Counter, +10 Merges, +ATK IV, and 4 Buff on the opposing side. As a sidenote this calculation is done with Blarblade. With Blarblade+, Ursula start keeping up with +SPD Olwen as ussual Overall we can conclude that +ATK Olwen > Ursula = SPD Olwen > Neutral Olwen I had analyzed some match ups for Life and Death 3 section, due to it being the most simple. The rest is WIP Edited May 29, 2017 by JSND Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Dragon Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 6 minutes ago, JSND said: >Its Hector: Ignore him Optimized Dire Thunder Olwen with Desperation already active (Ardent Sacrifice on one of your Fury Cavalry) kills Hector, even if he is +Res with 2 stacks of Ward Armor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted May 29, 2017 Author Share Posted May 29, 2017 1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said: Optimized Dire Thunder Olwen with Desperation already active (Ardent Sacrifice on one of your Fury Cavalry) kills Hector, even if he is +Res with 2 stacks of Ward Armor. I need to reformat this shit. It was supposed to be without Desperation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lushen Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 (edited) I don't think Ursla is 'arguably the best'. First off, Xander blows her away. Secondly, Zephiel and Lloyd can both be way better with skill inheritance. She is only good because she is a horse mage which is very desirable. I'm glad someone else sees how Ursla can be better than Olwen. Dire Thunder is largely overrated. Attacking twice isn't that good when you consider it's MT of only 9. This gives total damage of 18 as opposed to the max weapon MT of weapons being 16. Reinhardt still better than both, though, because he is so good at killing things with or without buffs while Blarblade Ursla has to be set up. In fact, Reinhardt kind of makes using Ursla a bad idea. I'd rather have Leo or Cecilia since they are red and green blade units that can be used with more synergy to Reinhardt. I'd be interested to see a non-horse-emblem build of Ursla. I'm thinking of building her for my four fangs team. Edited May 29, 2017 by Lushen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Dragon Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Lushen said: I don't think Ursla is 'arguably the best'. First off, Xander blows her away. Secondly, Zephiel and Lloyd can both be way better with skill inheritance. She is only good because she is a horse mage which is very desirable. If you're going to make statements like this in an analysis thread, you're going to have to actually back those statements up with numbers and match-up comparisons. 47 minutes ago, Lushen said: I'm glad someone else sees how Ursla can be better than Olwen. Dire Thunder is largely overrated. Attacking twice isn't that good when you consider it's MT of only 9. This gives total damage of 18 as opposed to the max weapon MT of weapons being 16. Attacking four times with a weapon with 9 Atk is extremely powerful when your bare-hand Atk with no buffs (that's 30, by the way) is already higher than the average unit's Res (the median Res is 24 or 25). 9 Atk on four hits is 36 damage before even considering how much Olwen's base Atk beats out just about everyone's base Res and how ridiculously powerful movement-type-specific buffs are. And then there's Life and Death adding another 20 damage. 47 minutes ago, Lushen said: Reinhardt still better than both, though, because he is so good at killing things with or without buffs while Blarblade Ursla has to be set up. In fact, Reinhardt kind of makes using Ursla a bad idea. I'd rather have Leo or Cecilia since they are red and green blade units that can be used with more synergy to Reinhardt. Hone Cavalry setup is cheap and hardly a hindrance to your team. Covering other colors doesn't matter when Reinhardt, Olwen, and Ursula destroy every color (except Triangle Adept greens and a few other high-Res greens) anyways. 47 minutes ago, Lushen said: I'd be interested to see a non-horse-emblem build of Ursla. I'm thinking of building her for my four fangs team. It'd look identical to literally any other Litrblade or Litrraven build, just with inferior buffing options. Edited May 29, 2017 by Ice Dragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 I'm far more interested in Desperation on Olwen rather than Life and Death/Deathblow. . .but if you're going for Desperation, perhaps Defiant Atk would work (in which case, Reciprocal Aid and +Atk/-HP would help Olwen). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenzen12 Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Dire thunder is hardly overrated, putting aside Rein Olwen with deathblow kills everything red and colorless, most blue and can finish even non vantage Hector on top of other low res greens. All that without cavalry buffs. Blades are better in teams centered around them (mainly cavalry yes). DT is better in non themed balanced teams (you can slap Olwen anywhere and she will do great job) and Triangle raven can Also kill colorless but fail on many blues, higher defense might be worth it for some though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lushen Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: If you're going to make statements like this in an analysis thread, you're going to have to actually back those statements up with numbers and match-up comparisons. I disagree. Perhaps I shouldn't have said Zephiel and Lloyd are better, but rather comparable. Built in distant counter makes Xander very desirably for obvious reasons. As for Lloyd and Zephiel, I meant subjectively. I didn't like the idea that Ursla is the best because while she is one of the good ones, she is in a list of good ones and with two other horse mages that are almost identical except for a few statpoints. I don't do match-ups, because I think they're pointless. With buffs, IVs, skill inheritance, and sacred seals, any character can be anything. Yes, you can use matchups to predict whether this or that character will win under specific circumstances, but it all changes when a new unit comes out and it's never very precise to begin with. It is a silly way to base a teams effectiveness because it doesn't account for synergy with other units at all. If you have 3 blues in your team and a fourth blue has amazing match-up comparisons, it's still not a good idea to put a fourth blue in your team. ~90% of the fights I lose are because I either forgot to look at someone's skills, I got screwed over by the terrain, or I just wasn't paying attention to the enemies bounds. I know what my units can or can't kill and a rough percentage on how often they can or can't kill a unit. I don't look at match-ups because I think using personal experience is more accurate. 25 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: Attacking four times with a weapon with 9 Atk is extremely powerful when your bare-hand Atk with no buffs (that's 30, by the way) is already higher than the average unit's Res (the median Res is 24 or 25). 9 Atk on four hits is 36 damage before even considering how much Olwen's base Atk beats out just about everyone's base Res and how ridiculously powerful movement-type-specific buffs are. And then there's Life and Death adding another 20 damage. Hm, I actually had a section typed out talking about how Olwen can be better if you get her speed up to where she does x4 speed. I was about to site it, but I must have deleted it and forgotten to re-mention it. 25 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: Hone Cavalry setup is cheap and hardly a hindrance to your team. I talked about this a while ago in another thread but what I'm referring to is sticky situations you can get into. Maybe the terrain screwed you over or maybe you put member X in enemy Y's cross-hairs on accident and need to kill enemy Y immediately. If you don't have Ursla set up, youre screwed but Reinhardt can handle it most of the time. 25 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: Covering other colors doesn't matter when Reinhardt, Olwen, and Ursula destroy every color (except Triangle Adept greens and a few other high-Res greens) anyways. That's a good point. I never considered making teams without covering all the types (or at least two). The only issue here would be Triangle Adept teams like you said or if you run into another cavalry team with better type coverage. That would be very rare, however. I was thinking of putting Robin on a horse with my Ursla, I don't know if there's another possible non-horse-emblem build though. 18 minutes ago, eclipse said: I'm far more interested in Desperation on Olwen rather than Life and Death/Deathblow. . .but if you're going for Desperation, perhaps Defiant Atk would work (in which case, Reciprocal Aid and +Atk/-HP would help Olwen). Hm, I never considered Desperation on Olwen but if you can get her speed up, sounds pretty OP to me. Still have trouble against a lot of mages/healer attackers due to their high resistance and Olwen's low attack. EDIT: Overrated does not mean bad. Dire thunder is absolutely amazing. I still think people think it's more amazing than it is, however. Edited May 29, 2017 by Lushen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Dragon Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 51 minutes ago, Lushen said: I don't do match-ups, because I think they're pointless. With buffs, IVs, skill inheritance, and sacred seals, any character can be anything. Yes, you can use matchups to predict whether this or that character will win under specific circumstances, but it all changes when a new unit comes out and it's never very precise to begin with. There is a reason I have 1,000 lines in my match-up spreadsheet despite the fact that there are only 130 characters in the game. You can account for different builds, different circumstances, and the addition of new characters. Being able to back up your claim with hard numbers and hard facts, especially in a game with zero random chance in gameplay, is something that you should be expected to do. 57 minutes ago, Lushen said: I don't look at match-ups because I think using personal experience is more accurate. If there is one thing that anyone taking a course in psychology should come out learning, it's that human memory and personal experience are among the least reliable things in this world. Numbers do not lie. Numbers do not forget. 59 minutes ago, Lushen said: It is a silly way to base a teams effectiveness because it doesn't account for synergy with other units at all. If you have 3 blues in your team and a fourth blue has amazing match-up comparisons, it's still not a good idea to put a fourth blue in your team. You're discarding at least half of the things you can learn from match-up data and telling me that it doesn't tell the whole story. Well, of course it doesn't if you're tossing half of it out. Match-up data tells you two things at a high level before you even start looking at the details, and that's how many match-ups you win and which match-ups you win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clogon Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 4 hours ago, Ice Dragon said: There is a reason I have 1,000 lines in my match-up spreadsheet Why? With the fact that you can automatically colour code the cells/text, couldn't you just make the cells a different colour depending on which skill and number of buffs they have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katrisa Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 I ran the numbers on all three of them using the matchup calculator both with defaults, vs fury, vs +Spd, +Atk, etc. Reinhardt, Olwen and Ursula and quite frankly they come out very close depending primarily on how many buffs they have AND what A slot you are comparing. As Icedragon has stated before Ursula +Speed with Dire or Blade totem will win out with the highest coverage and most kills when the highest number of damage/defensive buffs are available. Blarblade Ursula comes in very close second and will often have near identical or identical coverage to blade totem Olwen. +Att Reinhardt will win out in situations where defensive buffs are available but not offensive or no buffs are available. Its notable that Olwen and Reinhardt with Dire Thunder have very bad counter/bait support. Blarblade provides much better counter support on all of them. The questions really hit when you don't have a +Atk Reinhart or +Atk+Spd Olwen. In either of these situations Ursula with Blarblade will win out with the best coverage given +Atk and +Spd support. But again, when the buffs fall a neutral Reinhart with Deathblow 3 will outpace Ursula with better coverage (but terrible counter/bait support). So ultimately if you are running a horse team with +Atk and +Spd available there is very little difference in their performance. It really becomes a choice of who you have available, if you have the right boons/banes, if you have the right team support, the right inheritance support, and finally how you want the units to respond defensively. Some of these choices are marginal, while others are extremely significant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted May 31, 2017 Author Share Posted May 31, 2017 23 minutes ago, Katrisa said: I ran the numbers on all three of them using the matchup calculator both with defaults, vs fury, vs +Spd, +Atk, etc. Reinhardt, Olwen and Ursula and quite frankly they come out very close depending primarily on how many buffs they have AND what A slot you are comparing. As Icedragon has stated before Ursula +Speed with Dire or Blade totem will win out with the highest coverage and most kills when the highest number of damage/defensive buffs are available. Blarblade Ursula comes in very close second and will often have near identical or identical coverage to blade totem Olwen. +Att Reinhardt will win out in situations where defensive buffs are available but not offensive or no buffs are available. Its notable that Olwen and Reinhardt with Dire Thunder have very bad counter/bait support. Blarblade provides much better counter support on all of them. The questions really hit when you don't have a +Atk Reinhart or +Atk+Spd Olwen. In either of these situations Ursula with Blarblade will win out with the best coverage given +Atk and +Spd support. But again, when the buffs fall a neutral Reinhart with Deathblow 3 will outpace Ursula with better coverage (but terrible counter/bait support). So ultimately if you are running a horse team with +Atk and +Spd available there is very little difference in their performance. It really becomes a choice of who you have available, if you have the right boons/banes, if you have the right team support, the right inheritance support, and finally how you want the units to respond defensively. Some of these choices are marginal, while others are extremely significant. Wait,last i checked +Speed Olwen actually did not have the best coverage, the best is +ATK BB+ Olwen +SPD Olwen actually does worse overall than Ursula when i checked it, mainly because you already one shot most Lance, one shot all swords(with BB+ and A Slot), and one shot most colorless, so its really doing damage against greens that become the deal breaker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyrai Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 I'll try to compile these posts into simpler patterns. Let's see what I can get~ On 5/30/2017 at 7:19 AM, Ice Dragon said: Being able to back up your claim with hard numbers and hard facts, especially in a game with zero random chance in gameplay, is something that you should be expected to do. Numbers do not lie. Numbers do not forget. Match-up data tells you how many match-ups you win and which match-ups you win. Indeed. Of all the things I'm indeed worried about, it's that every wins / losses from my games are based on calculations and calculations. The two things that defines the wins and losses of our arena matches are numbers, and positioning skills. 49 minutes ago, Katrisa said: It really becomes a choice of who you have available, if you have the right boons/banes, if you have the right team support, the right inheritance support, and finally how you want the units to respond defensively. Some of these choices are marginal, while others are extremely significant. Mhmm. Although I need to point out that it all comes down to the skill of the player, how he / she adapts to any situation, making the best coverage (by the number of matchups that you can win by numbers), the map design (Some demand for you to at least have a melee unit), the unit's boon & bane, and numbers, oh numbers. They are just so significant in this type of game... Although anyone can be more useful by experience, eventually there's a search for a better unit for its viability rather than passion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Dragon Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 3 hours ago, JSND said: Wait,last i checked +Speed Olwen actually did not have the best coverage, the best is +ATK BB+ Olwen +SPD Olwen actually does worse overall than Ursula when i checked it, mainly because you already one shot most Lance, one shot all swords(with BB+ and A Slot), and one shot most colorless, so its really doing damage against greens that become the deal breaker Against +10 vanilla opponents (up through Spring Festival because updating my calculator is a lot of work): +10 Olwen [+Atk] (Dire Thunder, Draconic Aura, Life and Death 3, Desperation 3, S Attack +1) with Hone Cavalry and Desperation active cannot kill +Res Effie +Spd Peri +Res Hawkeye Arthur Sheena Minerva Narcian +Res Camilla Julia Nino Robin (F) +Res Fae +Spd Niles Felicia +10 Olwen [+Spd] (Dire Thunder, Draconic Aura, Life and Death 3, Desperation 3, S Attack +1) with Hone Cavalry and Desperation active cannot kill +Spd Azura Effie Jagen +Res Linde Hawkeye Arthur Sheena +Spd Minerva Narcian Camilla +Spd Nino +Res Nino Robin (F) +Res Cecilia Fae +Spd Felicia +10 Olwen [+Atk] (Blarblade+, Life and Death 3, Desperation 3) with Hone Cavalry and Desperation active cannot kill Effie Hawkeye Arthur Sheena +Spd Minerva Narcian +Res Camilla Julia Robin (F) Fae +10 Olwen [+Atk] (Blarblade+, Life and Death 3, Desperation 3) with Hone Cavalry and Fortify Cavalry and Desperation active cannot kill +Res Effie Arthur Narcian Robin (F) If you're on a cavalry team with both cavalry buffs, Blarblade+ is vastly superior, but that should be obvious. If you only have Hone Cavalry (half cavalry or Hone-only teams), +Atk Dire Thunder and Blarblade+ are basically the same thing (Dire Thunder kills most Effies, Blarblade+ kills some Minervas and most Ninos). If your Olwen is +Spd instead of +Atk, Blarblade+ is superior to Dire Thunder. If you don't have cavalry buffs and are running Olwen, you're doing something wrong and should reconsider your life choices. On 5/29/2017 at 11:45 PM, Clogon said: Why? With the fact that you can automatically colour code the cells/text, couldn't you just make the cells a different colour depending on which skill and number of buffs they have? Each line corresponds to a single character and build. Each pullable character has at least 6 lines: +0 +Atk, +0 +Spd, +0 +Def/Res, +10 +Atk, +10 +Spd, and +10 +Def/Res. Characters running Litrblade also have lines for +0/0/0/0, +3/4/0/0, and +4/4/4/4 for infantry and +0/0/0/0, +6/6/0/0, and +6/6/6/6 for everything else. And then there are lines for optimized and annoying niche builds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Smoke Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 What about Ursula vs Reinhardt? Idk about anyone else but I consistently see Reinhardt, and I've seen Olwen like once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted May 31, 2017 Author Share Posted May 31, 2017 32 minutes ago, Big Smoke said: What about Ursula vs Reinhardt? Idk about anyone else but I consistently see Reinhardt, and I've seen Olwen like once. The rough comparison is almost the same as Ice Dragon's summary HC Ursula is comparable to Full Power HC Reinhardt. However, Full Power Reinhardt had EXACTLY enough to one shot basic Hector and more than enough to one shot Effie, which HC Ursula lacks. 4 Buff Ursula > Reinhardt, and have enough power, she can one shot up to +5 Effie if she wishes but still can't beat Hector. For Blarblade: Ursula > Reinhardt overall in terms of coverage but Reinhardt is at an advantage coming from his higher ATK which make him the best Close Counter Vantage Blade, and Reinhardt is the only one of the three who could survive a hit, and thus, ORKO Hector without Desperation set up In a way, Ursula had the strongest coverage on her stats distribution, but she comes with disadvantage from being Free(after Boons are factored), Olwen the fastest and had highest actual potential with proper boon and support, Reinhardt is the easiest to use and requires less buff(Hone ATK DT Reinhardt have 120 Coverage) and make up his "less potential" for distinct advantages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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