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How would you compare Fernand and Berkut to the previous FE 3DS villains?

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6 minutes ago, Slumber said:

So maybe I shouldn't have said "well-paced", but "well-placed for Fire Emblem". 

Again, I disagree, and even if this were true, it does this at the expense of the characters and all the subplots. I already mentioned Desaix, who could've been killed in chapter one without altering the plot in the slightest. Conrad's inclusion is effectively unnecessary due to Celica going against her word and his reason for revealing his identity. The game tries to tell an underlying theme of nobility and birth not mattering, but it amounts to nothing since Alm and Celica are super special even among those of special blood, and the game would have come to a grinding halt had Alm not had the power to pass through the magical barrier that judges you by your blood. Fernand and Berkut get completely shafted by the narrative, as does Rinea. Mycen pops up wherever he needs to be to tell cryptic advice, and we never find out much about him in spite of everyone revering him.

I could go on for quite a while, but I think my stance is clear. The game feels too on-rails and locked onto its final goal that it forgets to expand upon these things. Sure, this is common in Fire Emblem, but to say this is a well-told and well-paced story feels a bit off to me.

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3 hours ago, Thane said:

Again, I disagree, and even if this were true, it does this at the expense of the characters and all the subplots. I already mentioned Desaix, who could've been killed in chapter one without altering the plot in the slightest. Conrad's inclusion is effectively unnecessary due to Celica going against her word and his reason for revealing his identity. The game tries to tell an underlying theme of nobility and birth not mattering, but it amounts to nothing since Alm and Celica are super special even among those of special blood, and the game would have come to a grinding halt had Alm not had the power to pass through the magical barrier that judges you by your blood. Fernand and Berkut get completely shafted by the narrative, as does Rinea. Mycen pops up wherever he needs to be to tell cryptic advice, and we never find out much about him in spite of everyone revering him.

I could go on for quite a while, but I think my stance is clear. The game feels too on-rails and locked onto its final goal that it forgets to expand upon these things. Sure, this is common in Fire Emblem, but to say this is a well-told and well-paced story feels a bit off to me.

Is there really any example in Fire Emblem of a story that doesn't fail in the areas you are addressing? Might I remind you, the last time FE tried a game in which the plot wasn't "locked to rails" was Fates, and we all know what an atrocity that was. Echoes does a better job of world-building than most games, and especially more so than your average Fire Emblem game.

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5 hours ago, Wayward Alchemist said:

Is there really any example in Fire Emblem of a story that doesn't fail in the areas you are addressing?

No, but the games do it to varying degrees. Path of Radiance probably has the least amount of issues, though keep in mind it's not my favorite story because a lack of problems doesn't mean a story is automatically good. This also means that I find it odd people are praising Echoes for its story.

5 hours ago, Wayward Alchemist said:

Might I remind you, the last time FE tried a game in which the plot wasn't "locked to rails" was Fates

I disagree vehemently. Fates was the most on-rails game in the series. Aside from Conquest, you get the final goal of Corrin almost immediately, and what happens between the final map and that point is essentially filler. You don't build up or prepare for anything, barring the arbitrary power ups which might as well (and sometimes do) come on the final map. All there is to the game is getting Corrin to the finish line. Things just sort of happen to Corrin on the way to their goal.

This is not to say on-rails plots can't be good, or that the opposite holds true. Conquest is the one with the biggest build-up to the climax, but, to borrow your words, we all know how that turned out.

5 hours ago, Wayward Alchemist said:

Echoes does a better job of world-building than most games, and especially more so than your average Fire Emblem game.

Sure, it does. That doesn't change what I argued previously though, and it can even be used against the game at certain points. For example, Zofia suffered from droughts, a civil war, a rampant bandit problem and overall sloth in comparison to Rigel. The game never addresses how the Deliverance can not only push a much larger, much more trained force not only out of Zofia in that state, but take the fight all the way to Rigel Castle. If it had shown us Rudolf backing off a bit or helping Alm along the way, it wouldn't have been such a glaring suspension of disbelief, but we see the opposite when he sends Berkut to the border. The Zofians should have much less training, less supplies, fight in a harsher climate, and so on.

Before you bring that up, yes, I'm well aware of how this is a thing in all Fire Emblem games, especially Sacred Stones with Ephraim. The difference is how the game hypes up Rigel in comparison to Zofia and then never do anything with it; it's just supposed to be forgotten about as you cut a bloody swath through the country. It also makes me wonder how Rudolf could expect Zofia to seal Duma for him in that state.

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Fernand was decent. Even before the DLC I thought his rationale was dickish but understandable. He definitely could have been given some more screen time and played up the melodrama of a betrayed friendship some more. The lack of screen time in Act 4 did not help. I honestly momentarily forgot who he was during Berkut's sacrifice cutscene.

 

As for Berkut I'm honestly surprised so many people like him as much as they do. Because for me he's the worst villain since Validar. His concept is great, his design is good and the voice work is commendable. But in actual execution he's bloody atrocious. Every single scene with him is one of either two things. A)Act smug and talk about how great he is. B)Moan and complain about about how he deserves better even though his failures are his own fault. Now those two particular points I wouldn't criticise a villain for inherently (as a lot of other people might) but that's all there was to him! That was the only two types of scenes he had. He was boring and repetitive. There was nothing else to develop interest or keep me caring about him. You need more than a better foundation to have a good character, you need to actually have them doing something. Ultimately he did nothing, achieved nothing and complained the entire time he was doing it. You could remove him from the story and nothing changes, we have proof, it was Gaiden! If you're going to introduce a new villain into the plot then that's great but actually have their presence in the world mean something.

 

Also as a minor nitpick we fight both of these guys like three times each and it's always irked me in Fire Emblem when you fight characters more than once. In other games I don't mind it but Fire Emblem keeps pretty faithful to the whole HP = 0 means death (or serious injury) so having enemies just run away after you've murdered everyone standing around them just feels cheap.

Edited by Jotari

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If I wasn't on this forum, I would forget Berkut and Fernando's existences, I was doing this as I go through the game as well. I think the royal siblings on the side you didn't pick make for some pretty good villains, Garon might as well be name Simon von Sinister for how obviously evil he is, Iago is so over-the-top... I actually got some enjoyment out of because his V.A.'s performance was actually really good. Hans is a Frozen reference because Japan loves Frozen and the Awakening are all interchangeable to me.

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I felt that while Berkut had some decent character development, he was rather filler. I wish that he and Fernand, and even Rinea, had more relevance to the plot than what they had. The guy who provided Berkut's voice gets a gold sticker for an awesome performance. 

@Rezzy - We should MBTI these guys. lol

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3 hours ago, TheTuckingFypo said:

I felt that while Berkut had some decent character development, he was rather filler. I wish that he and Fernand, and even Rinea, had more relevance to the plot than what they had. The guy who provided Berkut's voice gets a gold sticker for an awesome performance. 

@Rezzy - We should MBTI these guys. lol

I'll have to type up my analysis when I get time.

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I feel that even though they don't do as much as they could have with both Fernand abd Berkut, at the end of the day, they're both very human antagonists whose character flaws lead to the choices they make and results that follow. They're not walking contradictions and they don't exist solely for the player (as opposed to the characters in the story) to hate that plague the 3DS villains so I'm thoroughly satisfied with them.

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3 hours ago, TheTuckingFypo said:

Fair. I will be here. 

I totally get ESTJ vibes from Berkut.

Okay, now I should have a few minutes.  I figure we're doing unmarked spoilers, here, but I'll box them anyway.  Full disclosure, I haven't played the DLC, so my views are subject to change, if we get more info, since what we've seen so far is limited, all things considered.

Berkut

Spoiler

I was thinking ESTJ even before you said that, to be honest.

He's said to be a great leader, and saying how he's an ESTJ is in a way best shown by saying how he's not an ENTJ.  He loves hierarchy and is ambitious, but he wants to be the best emperor, because he's been raised as heir apparent.  ESTJ's are often "be the best you can be while being what you are expected to be".  He proclaims to Rinea that he's be emperor, but that's really just reinforcing what he's been raised to be anyway.  Desaix seem ENTJ to me, being very Maciavellian in his ambitious and not paying heed to the established order.

 

Berkut also seems to have more straight forward in-the-box thinking.  He just really using brute force, and never really shows any signs of being a good strategist or tactician.  When he learns of Alm's true heritage, he's distraught, because it destroys the hierarchy that he reveres.  Alm now appears to fill the role that Berkut thought he had.  If Berkut thought himself worthy because he was deserving by his merits, rather than his station, he may have reacted differently.

 

Fernand

Spoiler

I get ISFJ vibes from him.  Like Berkut, he seems SJ due to his love of hierarchy.  I think he's ISFJ, rather than ESFJ, because he seems to prefer to find an idol to follow, rather than lead himself.  True, ISFJs can lead, when necessary, but I types generally prefer to take the back seat, unless they don't feel their leaders are worthy.  For Fernand, first it was Clive, then Berkut.

ISFJs are very loyal, as long as they feel their leaders adhere well to their ideal.  That may make them sound disloyal, but they are forgiving of leaders individual faults, as long as they share a commitment to the same ideals, if that makes any sense.

 

Rinea

Spoiler

I honestly haven't seen enough of her to type her.  She's pretty much just Berkut's girlfriend, and we never really see her do much.  Although, the first in line to the Empire's throne usually marries someone more high profile than some random lady.

@TheTuckingFypo Let me know if you agree/disagree or have anything to add.

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1 hour ago, Rezzy said:

Okay, now I should have a few minutes.  I figure we're doing unmarked spoilers, here, but I'll box them anyway.  Full disclosure, I haven't played the DLC, so my views are subject to change, if we get more info, since what we've seen so far is limited, all things considered.

Berkut

  Hide contents

I was thinking ESTJ even before you said that, to be honest.

He's said to be a great leader, and saying how he's an ESTJ is in a way best shown by saying how he's not an ENTJ.  He loves hierarchy and is ambitious, but he wants to be the best emperor, because he's been raised as heir apparent.  ESTJ's are often "be the best you can be while being what you are expected to be".  He proclaims to Rinea that he's be emperor, but that's really just reinforcing what he's been raised to be anyway.  Desaix seem ENTJ to me, being very Maciavellian in his ambitious and not paying heed to the established order.

 

Berkut also seems to have more straight forward in-the-box thinking.  He just really using brute force, and never really shows any signs of being a good strategist or tactician.  When he learns of Alm's true heritage, he's distraught, because it destroys the hierarchy that he reveres.  Alm now appears to fill the role that Berkut thought he had.  If Berkut thought himself worthy because he was deserving by his merits, rather than his station, he may have reacted differently.

 

Fernand

  Hide contents

I get ISFJ vibes from him.  Like Berkut, he seems SJ due to his love of hierarchy.  I think he's ISFJ, rather than ESFJ, because he seems to prefer to find an idol to follow, rather than lead himself.  True, ISFJs can lead, when necessary, but I types generally prefer to take the back seat, unless they don't feel their leaders are worthy.  For Fernand, first it was Clive, then Berkut.

ISFJs are very loyal, as long as they feel their leaders adhere well to their ideal.  That may make them sound disloyal, but they are forgiving of leaders individual faults, as long as they share a commitment to the same ideals, if that makes any sense.

 

Rinea

  Hide contents

I honestly haven't seen enough of her to type her.  She's pretty much just Berkut's girlfriend, and we never really see her do much.  Although, the first in line to the Empire's throne usually marries someone more high profile than some random lady.

@TheTuckingFypo Let me know if you agree/disagree or have anything to add.

For the uninitiated, to you think you could provide a key for this comment?

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7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

For the uninitiated, to you think you could provide a key for this comment?

Here's the wikipedia page. There's several tests online that can give you your type, but some are better than others.

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2 hours ago, Rezzy said:

Here's the wikipedia page. There's several tests online that can give you your type, but some are better than others.

Oh I know what the myrs-briggs test is on a basic level. I just found the barrage of acronyms overwhelming. Introvert and extrovert are the only ones I can remember off the top of my head.

Edited by Jotari

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17 hours ago, Rezzy said:

Okay, now I should have a few minutes.  I figure we're doing unmarked spoilers, here, but I'll box them anyway.  Full disclosure, I haven't played the DLC, so my views are subject to change, if we get more info, since what we've seen so far is limited, all things considered.

Berkut

  Hide contents

I was thinking ESTJ even before you said that, to be honest.

He's said to be a great leader, and saying how he's an ESTJ is in a way best shown by saying how he's not an ENTJ.  He loves hierarchy and is ambitious, but he wants to be the best emperor, because he's been raised as heir apparent.  ESTJ's are often "be the best you can be while being what you are expected to be".  He proclaims to Rinea that he's be emperor, but that's really just reinforcing what he's been raised to be anyway.  Desaix seem ENTJ to me, being very Maciavellian in his ambitious and not paying heed to the established order.

 

Berkut also seems to have more straight forward in-the-box thinking.  He just really using brute force, and never really shows any signs of being a good strategist or tactician.  When he learns of Alm's true heritage, he's distraught, because it destroys the hierarchy that he reveres.  Alm now appears to fill the role that Berkut thought he had.  If Berkut thought himself worthy because he was deserving by his merits, rather than his station, he may have reacted differently.

 

Fernand

  Hide contents

I get ISFJ vibes from him.  Like Berkut, he seems SJ due to his love of hierarchy.  I think he's ISFJ, rather than ESFJ, because he seems to prefer to find an idol to follow, rather than lead himself.  True, ISFJs can lead, when necessary, but I types generally prefer to take the back seat, unless they don't feel their leaders are worthy.  For Fernand, first it was Clive, then Berkut.

ISFJs are very loyal, as long as they feel their leaders adhere well to their ideal.  That may make them sound disloyal, but they are forgiving of leaders individual faults, as long as they share a commitment to the same ideals, if that makes any sense.

 

Rinea

  Hide contents

I honestly haven't seen enough of her to type her.  She's pretty much just Berkut's girlfriend, and we never really see her do much.  Although, the first in line to the Empire's throne usually marries someone more high profile than some random lady.

@TheTuckingFypo Let me know if you agree/disagree or have anything to add.

Don't worry, I haven't played the DLC either.

I agree with you. You couldn't have explained Fernand better.

For Rinea:

Spoiler

I sense an INFP. Unlike the other two, she doesn't seem to care for power/hierarchy, the proof being her preference to not be empress, falling for Berkut for who he is. Though not much is said, she does like her flower garden. As for why, it likely acts as an escape for her. I also think that she has an appreciation of beauty, which is defined by her own morals, something very, very Fi.

Who else do we type?

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5 hours ago, TheTuckingFypo said:

Don't worry, I haven't played the DLC either.

I agree with you. You couldn't have explained Fernand better.

For Rinea:

  Reveal hidden contents

I sense an INFP. Unlike the other two, she doesn't seem to care for power/hierarchy, the proof being her preference to not be empress, falling for Berkut for who he is. Though not much is said, she does like her flower garden. As for why, it likely acts as an escape for her. I also think that she has an appreciation of beauty, which is defined by her own morals, something very, very Fi.

Who else do we type?

I think Alm is ISFP.  I had my explanation typed out, but then my home internet crashed, and I lost it.

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5 hours ago, Rezzy said:

I think Alm is ISFP.  I had my explanation typed out, but then my home internet crashed, and I lost it.

That's fine. 

Spoiler

Though, I got ENFJ vibes from Alm, and INFJ from Celica....

Also, do you agree with my Rinea explanation, or does it need further explanation? 

And maybe we should move this to PM

-----

I don't have much more to say about Berkut. As I said earlier, I wish he had more relevance to the plot, since to me, he felt rather filler. I guess you could say the same about Rinea and Fernand as well (more so the latter, because while Rinea is a rather minor and flat character, she serves her purpose well; to "humanize" Berkut, for lack of a better word). They captured Berkut's character very well, and the voice acting polishes it and put it on the trophy shelf.

I think Berkut was a better villan than most, partially because we get to see his morale and pride repeatedly smashed to pieces with a steamroller, and fed through a mincemeat machine, at the expense of his sanity. 

With other villans, we never really get that level of characterization. Validar, Garon and Hans would be the best examples, as all three didn't have much of a role to fill outside of being the boss for x chapter, and lack a personaity outside of fell dragons, evil and death (In Garon's defense, he's technically a reanimated corpse, so I cannot say for him prior to that). 

If Intelligent Systems keeps it up, I think Lyon will become the ultimate villan (when we get a Sacred Stones remake).

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1 hour ago, TheTuckingFypo said:

That's fine. 

  Hide contents

Though, I got ENFJ vibes from Alm, and INFJ from Celica....

Also, do you agree with my Rinea explanation, or does it need further explanation? 

And maybe we should move this to PM

-----

I don't have much more to say about Berkut. As I said earlier, I wish he had more relevance to the plot, since to me, he felt rather filler. I guess you could say the same about Rinea and Fernand as well (more so the latter, because while Rinea is a rather minor and flat character, she serves her purpose well; to "humanize" Berkut, for lack of a better word). They captured Berkut's character very well, and the voice acting polishes it and put it on the trophy shelf.

I think Berkut was a better villan than most, partially because we get to see his morale and pride repeatedly smashed to pieces with a steamroller, and fed through a mincemeat machine, at the expense of his sanity. 

With other villans, we never really get that level of characterization. Validar, Garon and Hans would be the best examples, as all three didn't have much of a role to fill outside of being the boss for x chapter, and lack a personaity outside of fell dragons, evil and death (In Garon's defense, he's technically a reanimated corpse, so I cannot say for him prior to that). 

If Intelligent Systems keeps it up, I think Lyon will become the ultimate villan (when we get a Sacred Stones remake).

Yep, I think your Rinea explanation is good.  Too bad we don't have much to go on for her, though.

I think INFJ is spot on for Celica, she was the next one I was going to do.

Maybe you could start a thread for this, so we don't derail this thread, feel free to tag me, and I'll post there.  My internet has been spotty, so I'm having to avoid long posts, at least for now, but hopefully, it gets resolved soon.

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Berkut is really just a poor man's Zuko. They're both angsty, (eventually) disgraced, dark-haired teenage princes of the enemy nation who shout "uncle!" a lot. However, whereas Zuko has one of the most interesting, human and overall well-written character arcs I've ever seen, Berkut accomplishes nothing, shows no redeeming qualities throughout the game and then decides to go apeshit instead of doing something cool, robbing us of any satisfactory conclusion or payoff.

Edited by Thane

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8 hours ago, Thane said:

Berkut is really just a poor man's Zuko. They're both angsty, (eventually) disgraced, dark-haired teenage princes of the enemy nation who shout "uncle!" a lot. However, whereas Zuko has one of the most interesting, human and overall well-written character arcs I've ever seen, Berkut accomplishes nothing, shows no redeeming qualities throughout the game and then decides to go apeshit instead of doing something cool, robbing us of any satisfactory conclusion or payoff.

Omg XD I see it now.

Though, I think Berkut wasn't really supposed to have redeeming qualities, outside of his love for Rinea. He was supposed to represent a downward spiral. He did die at the end, after all. If IS wanted him to live they would've written him a bit differently. Zuko, however, had a different outcome. The writers intended for him to help the avatar. 

I get the feeling we are looking at two different aspects of Berkut. 

Zuko was amazing though. I should binge watch the last airbender again.

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2 minutes ago, TheTuckingFypo said:

Though, I think Berkut wasn't really supposed to have redeeming qualities, outside of his love for Rinea. He was supposed to represent a downward spiral. He did die at the end, after all. If IS wanted him to live they would've written him a bit differently. 

Their relationship is honestly one of the worst part of Berkut's character. They have negative chemistry, so every scene with them is pretty bad. it's even worse when you notice that RInea doesn't really interact with any other character outside of Berkut, unless you count commenting on one thing Nuibaba says. She's almost a literal accessory to him.

If he's got no positive qualities, accomplishes nothing, and then dies in the most anticlimactic way possible, then why was he added in the game to begin with? Why does Alm want to forgive him? Just because they're family? Because that's a pretty weak excuse given how Berkut has treated him.

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Hmm... I do think Fernand is pretty good as a villain, honestly I even like him more than Berkut (who isn't bad at all mind you, but just wasn't as effective to me personally) because his motivations for being the way he is are pretty well-explained IMO.

I still wouldn't put him above Gangrel, Walhart or Anankos mind you. But yeah, overall I do think he's great!

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On 6/11/2017 at 5:46 AM, Thane said:

Berkut is really just a poor man's Zuko. They're both angsty, (eventually) disgraced, dark-haired teenage princes of the enemy nation who shout "uncle!" a lot. However, whereas Zuko has one of the most interesting, human and overall well-written character arcs I've ever seen, Berkut accomplishes nothing, shows no redeeming qualities throughout the game and then decides to go apeshit instead of doing something cool, robbing us of any satisfactory conclusion or payoff.

Berkut and Zuko are hardly alike and are in completely different situations. Also, the latter was written to eventually turn into a protagonist.

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