Too Many Swords?

[Von Ithipathachai]

So like many of you, I was quite perturbed by the reason for not including every Lord being that "there would be too many sword users", despite the fact that non-sword-wielding Lords also exist.  Since hearing about it, I have been trying to understand Intelligent Systems/Koei Tecmo's reasoning behind this statement.  So I have decided to think about the issue from a design standpoint rather than a fanservice one to see if that statement has some merit.

We know that the game will have a larger playable roster than usual for a Warriors game, so for now I'll assume that it will be 30 or so characters large.  Furthermore, if the Lords of a certain game did not make it in, then it would not be fair for other characters from said game to do so.

All of the important Lords:

• Archanea: Marth, Alm, Celica, Chrom, and Lucina (5)
• Jugdral: Sigurd, Seliph, and Leif (3)
• Elibe: Roy, Eliwood, Lyn, and Hector (4)
• Magvel: Ephraim and Eirika (2)
• Tellius: Ike and Micaiah (2)
• Fates: Corrin and Azura (also Ryoma and Xander, since they're sufficiently important) (4)
• OC: Shion, Lian, and Darius (3)

So that makes 23 Lords, already over two-thirds of the likely roster space.  Futhermore, out of every Lord, only Ephraim, Micaiah, and Azura are unable to wield swords at any point in their games.  So that makes 20 sword-wielding Lords to potentially have to recruit, and they hold positions of importance equal to the ones in their respective games that don't.  So if one Lord from a particular game gets cut, all of the Lords in that same game have to be cut as well.  Worse still, room has to be made for other fan-favorite characters, including non-Lord sword wielders like Ogma, Navarre, Lon'qu, and Owain.

In order to satisfy the largest amount of fans, they're going to start by cutting the Lords that the fewest people care about.  So there go the Gaiden Lords and all of the Jugdral Lords, bringing the number of Lords down to 18.  That's still too many, so next they'll cut from the remaining Lords the ones that fewest people care about.  There go the Magvel and Tellius Lords, bringing the number down to 14.  Again, that's still too many, so next they'll cut from those remaining Lords the ones that fewest people care about.  Finally, *sigh* there go the Elibe Lords, bringing the number down to 10.  The remaining Archanea and Fates Lords have to stay or else no one at that point will want the game, and the OC Lords have to stay to tie everyone together.  So that's a minimum of 9 sword-wielding Lords, leaving 21 spaces open, most of those ideally for characters who don't wield swords.

So there.  That's my attempt at making sense of this whole thing.  As much as they'd like to, Koei Tecmo cannot leave room for every Lord in addition to important fan-favorites from elsewhere in the series in the base game.  They needed to leave room for other fan favorites/non-sword-wielders, so unfortunately some of the more redundant Lords had to be cut.  Hopefully whatever DLC we'll get will be able to fill in the gaps, and not at a ridiculous price.

Of course, if the weapon triangle was so freaking important, they would've given two of the OC Lords different weapons.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Von Ithipathachai

[Lord Raymond]

But that Lords typically ARE fan-favorite characters. Why cut the fan-favorite characters (Lords) to make room for the so-called fan favorite characters (non-Lords) who aren't even as well liked as the Lords? Also, whats their reasoning for dropping non-sword Lords like Hector and Ephraim? Even then, they could do stuff like giving Eliwood a lance, giving Lyn a bow, and giving Ike an axe. They can all use these weapons. This doesn't really make sense of it at all...Also, I would hardly call Ike and Lyn redundant. They are some of  the most popular and iconic Fire Emblem characters. Why not include them?

Edited May 31, 2017 by Lord Raymond

[Von Ithipathachai]

14 minutes ago, Lord Raymond said:

But that Lords typically ARE fan-favorite characters. Why cut the fan-favorite characters (Lords) to make room for the so-called fan favorite characters (non-Lords) who aren't even as well liked as the Lords? Also, whats their reasoning for dropping non-sword Lords like Hector and Ephraim? Even then, they could do stuff like giving Eliwood a lance, giving Lyn a bow, and giving Ike an axe. They can all use these weapons. This doesn't really make sense of it at all...Also, I would hardly call Ike and Lyn redundant. They are some of  the most popular and iconic Fire Emblem characters. Why not include them?

Cutting Lord favorites (including Ike and Lyn) in favor of non-Lord favorites would ideally add more variety to the roster.  Of course, this sounds good on paper, but perhaps does not work that well in execution.

Hector and Ephraim would get cut because it wouldn't be fair to keep them and cut Lyn and Eliwood and Eirika, since they're equally important characters in their respective games.

It's true that Lyn, Eliwood, and Ike all have access to other weapons, but they are sword users first and foremost.

Finally, in saying this was an attempt at making sense of it all, I never claimed that it was a successful attempt.  If I implied otherwise in my writing, I apologize.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Von Ithipathachai

[saisymbolic]

Okay, so let's pretend they've decided to add in other protagonists while still maintaining the "too many swords" excuse.

We'll look at it from KT's perspective.

"We've added in Hector, because Hector uses an axe. Lovely. But what about Eliwood and Lyn? They're the main lords as well. Do we only add in Hector as the representative, or do we add in all three? Even then, Eliwood and Lyn primarily use swords. What should we do about it? Easy. Put them in their promoted class or give them the weapon of their promoted class instead. But what about the rest of the lords? Do we just change some and not all? Do we introduce them in their promoted class?

What about Ephraim? He's a lance lord. Do we ignore Eirika in favor of her brother? Oh no, people will complain that there aren't enough female lords. Why Ephraim and not Eirika? Surely another sword user won't hurt; she has just as much right to be in the game as her brother. But we're trying to cut down the number of sword users, not add more.

What of Ike? He's one of the popular characters. But he uses a sword. What about Micaiah? Why not her? She's a main character, and she uses magic. Just use her. But what about Ike? He was the protagonist of the first game, why does Micaiah have more precedence over Ike?

etc. about the rest of the games . . . "

It essentially boils down to some lords over all, and that they can't please everyone. They'd have to change a few characters to please some people, while neglecting the other lords, which will only serve to draw the ire of another part of the fandom.

At least, that's how I see it.

Edited May 31, 2017 by saisymbolic
clarification

[Von Ithipathachai]

1 minute ago, saisymbolic said:

Okay, so let's pretend they've decided to add in other protagonists while still maintaining the "too many swords" excuse.

They've added in Hector, because Hector uses an axe. Lovely. But what about Eliwood and Lyn? They're the main lords as well. Do they only add in Hector as the representative, or do they add in all three? Even then, Eliwood and Lyn primarily use swords. What should they do about it? Easy. Put them in their promoted class or give them the weapon of their promoted class instead. But what about the rest of the lords? Do we just change some and not all? Do we introduce them in their promoted class?

What about Ephraim? He's a lance lord? Do we ignore Eirika in favor of her brother? Oh no, people will complain that there aren't enough female lords. Why Ephraim and not Eirika? Surely another sword user won't hurt. She has just as much right to be in the game as her brother.

What of Ike? Isn't he already popular enough? What about Micaiah? Why not her? She's a main character, and she uses magic. Just use her. But what about Ike? He was the protagonist of the first game, why does Micaiah have more precedence over Ike?

It essentially boils down to some lords over all, and that they can't please everyone. They'd have to change a few characters to please some people, while neglecting the other lords, which will only serve to draw the ire of another part of the fandom.

At least, that's how I see it.

Class and weapon alteration is another issue I perhaps should have thought more about.

[saisymbolic]

6 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Class and weapon alteration is another issue I perhaps should have thought more about.

Oh, my post wasn't in retort to yours. I was also adding my own reasoning as to why they only chose certain games, though my explanation is surely lacking and possibly confusing as well.

Edited May 31, 2017 by saisymbolic

[SoulWeaver]

I don't see any reason for them to have to cut EVERY Lord from a continent out of the game because they're taking one of them out. Personally, I think they'll keep every FE Amiibo character so they can conveniently make more money from Amiibo, meaning all of Archanea's Lords plus Corrin, Ike, Robin(despite Robin not really being a Lord) and Roy. It's also already basically confirmed for Ryoma and Xander thanks to that first trailer for the game, and I think we can safely assume Takumi and Leo as well with the mention of Bow and Magic users being available, though that's a little more shaky.

As for the rest, I say Azura's a coin-toss, Jugdral goes for sure, Magvel most likely gets cut, Micaiah's out, and Eliwood, Lyn and Hector are possible but really not likely. This with the OCs puts us at about 16 Lords, half the roster assuming around 30 is the right number, though frankly I'm hoping for more than that, and everyone except Takumi and Leo has or can wield a sword. I seriously doubt any of the Lords who can wield multiple weapons will be handed anything other than their signature blades, so Ike would most likely have Ragnell, not an axe. Really, the only hope for the characters I mentioned not having Swords is Robin, who may get Thunder Magic instead, and even then will likely be whipping that Levin Sword around. Keep your fingers crossed for multiple weapons being available to each Unit for now.

So looking at that, who else fills up the theoretical 14 or so slots left assuming 30 total? Chances are we're going to be seeing characters that topped popularity polls, meaning possibly Tharja, Gaius, Cordelia, Severa, Inigo, Owain(PLEASE GIVE US OWAIN THIS GAME WAS PRETTY MUCH MADE FOR HIM), Camilla, Oboro, Charlotte, and whoever else I forgot from any of said popularity polls. Assuming the names I just gave and assuming I didn't forget anyone from the Fates poll, this cuts us down to about 5 empty slots, in which case I call the Whitewings and Caeda because Marth. Frankly, I'm hoping that I'm wrong and they don't just choose based on the polls, but let's be honest, do we have any reason to believe they won't just choose based on polls? That's how we ended up with Odin, Lazlow, Selena, Caeldori, Rhajat and Asugi, after all.

Do keep in mind that these are my personal calls for the game and I might be wrong about the Lords who get cut before you go jumping on me for saying so-and-so will go.

Edited May 31, 2017 by SoulWeaver

[Arthur97]

4 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

I don't see any reason for them to have to cut EVERY Lord from a continent out of the game because they're taking one of them out. Personally, I think they'll keep every FE Amiibo character so they can conveniently make more money from Amiibo, meaning all of Archanea's Lords plus Corrin, Ike, Robin(despite Robin not really being a Lord) and Roy. It's also already basically confirmed for Ryoma and Xander thanks to that first trailer for the game, and I think we can safely assume Takumi and Leo as well with the mention of Bow and Magic users being available, though that's a little more shaky.

As for the rest, I say Azura's a coin-toss, Jugdral goes for sure, Magvel most likely gets cut, Micaiah's out, and Eliwood, Lyn and Hector are possible but really not likely. This with the OCs puts us at about 16 Lords, half the roster assuming around 30 is the right number, though frankly I'm hoping for more than that, and everyone except Takumi and Leo has or can wield a sword. I seriously doubt any of the Lords who can wield multiple weapons will be handed anything other than their signature blades, so Ike would most likely have Ragnell, not an axe. Really, the only hope for the characters I mentioned not having Swords is Robin, who may get Thunder Magic instead, and even then will likely be whipping that Levin Sword around. Keep your fingers crossed for multiple weapons being available to each Unit for now.

So looking at that, who else fills up the theoretical 14 or so slots left assuming 30 total? Chances are we're going to be seeing characters that topped popularity polls, meaning possibly Tharja, Gaius, Cordelia, Severa, Inigo, Owain(PLEASE GIVE US OWAIN THIS GAME WAS PRETTY MUCH MADE FOR HIM), Camilla, Oboro, Charlotte, and whoever else I forgot from any of said popularity polls. Assuming the names I just gave and assuming I didn't forget anyone from the Fates poll, this cuts us down to about 5 empty slots, in which case I call the Whitewings and Caeda because Marth. Frankly, I'm hoping that I'm wrong and they don't just choose based on the polls, but let's be honest, do we have any reason to believe they won't just choose based on polls? That's how we ended up with Odin, Lazlow, Selena, Caeldori, Rhajat and Asugi, after all.

Do keep in mind that these are my personal calls for the game and I might be wrong about the Lords who get cut before you go jumping on me for saying so-and-so will go.

I do think that Amiibos might give Ike and Roy an edge, but who can say. Hopefully they do so I can actually use mine for something.

[SoulWeaver]

4 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

I do think that Amiibos might give Ike and Roy an edge, but who can say. Hopefully they do so I can actually use mine for something.

Same, I'm still ticked that my Roy has done nothing but gather dust on my shelf since I pre-ordered him. I mean, come on, guys, I know you made it for Smash, but really?

[Arthur97]

1 minute ago, SoulWeaver said:

Same, I'm still ticked that my Roy has done nothing but gather dust on my shelf since I pre-ordered him. I mean, come on, guys, I know you made it for Smash, but really?

It's a shame that Fire Emblem Amiibos seem to have the best functionality, but on the 3DS which unless you have a New one or an NFC reader, you can't use. I want to play through STEAM using only Fire Emblem characters.

Oh, and at least Roy can be used in SoV.

[Tolvir]

Its what I said earlier in my post before that info came out in the news thread. We have over 300 characters spread across 25 years to pour over, for a game that at most will have a 40-50 character cast including DLC. As your point was made, half of that would literally only be Lords, leaving room for maybe 1-2 extra characters from each game outside of them. In order to make the best balance, it was something they had to do. They made the correct choice in my opinion. Overall they are striving to not just make a good cross over for Fire Emblem, but a good game as a whole, and I applaud that. Its what should be the objective of the team for any video game. Make a good game.

[Von Ithipathachai]

16 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

Its what I said earlier in my post before that info came out in the news thread. We have over 300 characters spread across 25 years to pour over, for a game that at most will have a 40-50 character cast including DLC. As your point was made, half of that would literally only be Lords, leaving room for maybe 1-2 extra characters from each game outside of them. In order to make the best balance, it was something they had to do. They made the correct choice in my opinion. Overall they are striving to not just make a good cross over for Fire Emblem, but a good game as a whole, and I applaud that. Its what should be the objective of the team for any video game. Make a good game.

Yeah, I can agree with that.  After all, I play Fire Emblem mainly for the gameplay, while story is generally a nice bonus.

[Tolvir]

Just now, Von Ithipathachai said:

Yeah, I can agree with that.  After all, I play Fire Emblem mainly for the gameplay, while story is generally a nice bonus.

Gameplay is a big thing for me too, story can be amazing but if the gameplay sucks then it isnt going to be a fun experience. Dwarves comes to mind, great story based off of a book, but gameplay was absolutely terrible. I ended up turning the game back in and just bought the book instead. At least with good gameplay, even if the story sucks you can still enjoy the game.

As far as Warriors goes, I am not expecting much story wise. Its kind of like the difference between watching Sixth Sense where I am watching for a good story, and something like Fast and Furious where I am just watching for mindless action and some funny one liners. Kind of going into Warriors with the mindset of the latter.

[Von Ithipathachai]

1 minute ago, Tolvir said:

Gameplay is a big thing for me too, story can be amazing but if the gameplay sucks then it isnt going to be a fun experience.

This was the exact problem I had with Genealogy of the Holy War as opposed to Thracia 776.

But I guess I'm getting too far off-topic on my own thread...  XP

[Book Bro]

Here's what they could've done.

Who are the most popular lords?

Lucina, Corrin, Ike, Roy, Marth. Basically, the Smash crew.

Next, who are the most popular "quasi-lords"?

Robin, Ryoma, Xander, Leo, Takumi, Azura, Camilla, Elise, Hinoka, Sakura.

So far we're at 15 characters. Problem is we have 7 who are mainly sword users. This can be solved as such: Marth uses a fast sword style, Lucina is in the middle, and Ike is the heavy hitter. Roy has fire. Ryoma has lightning and is a samurai. Xander has darkness and is mounted. Corrin turns into a dragon. 

Next... we probably want Alm and Celica to promote the upcoming games. As a bonus Alm has the option to use bows and Celica has magic. We're at 17 characters. Still not really an issue as all these sword users fight very differently.

Who else can we add? We probably want fan favourites like Tharja, Tiki, Owain, Caeda, Lyn, and Hector. So far we have all weapons represented except light magic and knives, so let's put in Micaiah, Felicia, and Kaze. 26 characters.

The result, a fair yet diverse and focused cast. Magvel and Jugdral are left out until DLC but it doesn't feel as much of a slap in the face.

[Lord-Zero]

People, don't use the existing amiibo as a clutch especially when they can make their own line of FE Warriors-themed amiibo. They're taking the weapon triangle part pretty seriously as a way to balance out the roster so I can see why many protagonists would be "cut"even if they have "different styles" of swordmanship. They also mentioned "magic-type and "archer-type" characters so that pretty much confirms Takumi and Tharja. As for other characters, Eliwood has an edge over Lyn, Roy and even Sigurd due to his weapon expertise, large blazing Durandal, and horse riding skills so he could end up being our mounted cav lord character IF they poke a bit beyond Shadow Dragon, Awakening and Fates. They'll most likely have a token loli character and that one would most likely be the Shadow Dragon version or...Nino since Japan still loves her. Ike could bring Urvan and still be a heavy-hitter. Lyn is in a rough spot thanks to Ryoma and possibly Navarre or Lon'qu. Even Lucina is in a rough spot thanks to Marth and Chrom. Alm/Celica could get in thanks to IS loving Gaiden to death but this is Koei-Tecmo developing the game. 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Lord-Zero

[Interdimensional Observer]

I posted this in the topic that got flooded worse than the world of Tellius:

Spoiler

On the swords issue, let me bring in Dynasty Warriors 8 Empires:

Cao Cao- General Sword

Cao Pi- Dualblade

Xiahou Dun: Podao

Sun Jian: Five-Ring Blade

Sun Quan: Flame Blade

Zhou Tai: Curved Blade/Katana

Lu Xun: Swallow Swords

Liu Bei: Twin Swords

Guan Ping: Greatsword

Xingcai: Sword and Shield

Sima Shi: Lightning Sword

Sima Zhao: Striking Sword

Yuan Shao: Rapier

 

And, more relevant to Fire Emblem Warriors, let me dissect swords in Hyrule Warriors (and its Legends port additions in italics):

Spoiler

Link: Hylian/Master Sword and Shield

Zelda: Rapier (with light magic and light arrows)

Impa: Giant Blade (with water/ice magic touches)

Fi: Goddess Blade (dances across the battlefield in humanoid form using light magic and shifting into Goddess Blade form at times)

Ganondorf: Great Swords (with dark magic touches)

Zant: Scimitars (with heaping amounts of non-sword Zant boss battle and Twilight Palace references)

Ghirahim: Demon Blade (saber mixed with dark magic, sword transformation, and other splendid things, including a red thread gimmick)

Young Link: Mask (and double-handed Kokiri Sword/Fierce Deity transformation with double helix sword and sword beams galore, plus a touch of light magic)

Tetra: Cutlass (plus flintlock pistol)

Toon Link: Light Sword and Shield (distinct from normal Link)

Toon Zelda: Phantom Arms (sword and shield attacks mixed Phantom rolling, and spirit stuff)

I could do a sword dissection of Samurai Warriors too, but I feel this is enough.

Koei Tecmo knows how to make sword diversity, and some of these could easily be adapted or mashed up for FE characters (take one part Lightning Sword and one part Rapier, add a sprinkle of Kai's Chain Sword from SW, and bam, we have an Eirika Sieglinde moveset). I think the "too many swords" issue is purely in terms of their ratio vs. other weapons, not statement of a lack of creativity when it comes to making sword movesets. 

[Lord-Zero]

Agreed. They're going for weapon diversity ratio this time to make sure the weapon triangle gimmick works properly. 

[Raguna]

40 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

Agreed. They're going for weapon diversity ratio this time to make sure the weapon triangle gimmick works properly. 

Adding to this, I'm sure they'll also have to bring in a nice amount of class diversity as well. They can't just stick to lords only and just a few other dudes. Wyvern, pegs, armors etc... even if there's only one, it has to be there in some fashion, right? Although being frank the most notable armors to the Japanese media would probably be Draug and to the Fates crowd that title definitely goes to Effie. 

Cain and Abel are shoe-ins if you ask me if we need to mention some Archanea characters. Weapon diversity in a Warriors games isn't really too much of a major issue. In recent Dynasty Warrior games, you could switch your characters weapons in the middle of a battle combo. They could have used a better justification quite frankly but I guess that'd be a disadvantage to mono-weapon characters?

[Arthur97]

4 minutes ago, Raguna said:

Adding to this, I'm sure they'll also have to bring in a nice amount of class diversity as well. They can't just stick to lords only and just a few other dudes. Wyvern, pegs, armors etc... even if there's only one, it has to be there in some fashion, right? Although being frank the most notable armors to the Japanese media would probably be Draug and to the Fates crowd that title definitely goes to Effie. 

Clearly the armor rep needs to be Kellam.

[L9999]

4 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Clearly the armor rep needs to be Kellam.

Who the hell is Kellam?

1 hour ago, Lord-Zero said:

Agreed. They're going for weapon diversity ratio this time to make sure the weapon triangle gimmick works properly. 

Now that I think about it, nobody who is popular in FE uses axes. You got Hector, and...I guess Camilla but she is more tits than axes if you ask me. 

[Shinehollow]

The stupid thing I find about this "too many sword users" thing is that they introduced two new characters who use swords, and then have "too many sword units" reasoning for their focus on Mystery of the Emblem, Awakening, and Fates. Like, if there's too many sword users, maybe don't have two original characters who wield them, and maybe focus on more than three games for the weapon variety.

[Cysx]

3 hours ago, Tolvir said:

Its what I said earlier in my post before that info came out in the news thread. We have over 300 characters spread across 25 years to pour over, for a game that at most will have a 40-50 character cast including DLC. As your point was made, half of that would literally only be Lords, leaving room for maybe 1-2 extra characters from each game outside of them.

Honestly, that sounds absolutely fine to me... And I'm also expecting characters to have several weapons like in Hyrule warriors, so the sword issue could be alleviated fairly easily. Maybe that won't happen though.

[Von Ithipathachai]

18 minutes ago, Koen said:

The stupid thing I find about this "too many sword users" thing is that they introduced two new characters who use swords, and then have "too many sword units" reasoning for their focus on Mystery of the Emblem, Awakening, and Fates. Like, if there's too many sword users, maybe don't have two original characters who wield them, and maybe focus on more than three games for the weapon variety.

Actually, that's three sword-wielding original characters they introduced (the two blonde Lords, Shion and Lian, and the blue-haired Lord, Darius).

So that makes them look even worse.

[Slumber]

I'm not even mad about the focus on Archanea and Awakening.

I AM mad about the inclusion of Fates. At least we know Awakening is set in the same world as Archanea, but Fates is off in its own, poorly developed, weird world.

I'd be fine if the game was Awakening, the Archanea characters, and the Jugdral characters. At least then you could make the argument that the characters are all from the same world at different points in time, and it doesn't just break down to "We just wanted to use the most popular games to sell our Musou", like this obviously is.

This "too many swords" excuse is a poor attempt to draw away from the fact that they're just using the games that sold most. Which, you know, I'd also be fine with, if they at least said this. At least they'd be honest.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Slumber