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Tempest Torture

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3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The rewards from this Tempest Trial will probably be lower in the rewards in the next one, but they'll likely add a new reward at 50,000 points. That or Quickened Pulse will just be a permanent fixture at 50,000 points to encourage players to improve their team before the next Trial.

They would pretty much have to put Pulse far lower next time around, or the people who already got it would have no reason to go to 50k for just 500 feathers. The 'ideal' way to do it would probably be: newest 'great' reward at 50k, while the previous 'great' rewards are spread out over the 0-10k or so region. This way people who already have it don't mind so much that it's only 500 feathers as a reward.

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5 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

They would pretty much have to put Pulse far lower next time around, or the people who already got it would have no reason to go to 50k for just 500 feathers. The 'ideal' way to do it would probably be: newest 'great' reward at 50k, while the previous 'great' rewards are spread out over the 0-10k or so region. This way people who already have it don't mind so much that it's only 500 feathers as a reward.

If it were me deciding the rewards, I'd put Quickened Pulse at 50,000 with the new reward. Players who have it already will still have a reason to go for 50,000 to get the new reward, and they'd get the additional feathers for the repeat seal.

Edited by Ice Dragon

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1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

If it were me deciding the rewards, I'd put Quickened Pulse at 50,000 with the new reward. Players who have it already will still have a reason to go for 50,000 to get the new reward, and they'd get the additional feathers for the repeat seal.

The people who simply couldn't get 50k would get shafted by that, though. Putting pulse at the 10k or so level let's the lazier or less competent get the reward as well, so they feel like they're getting further and further behind. And the people who are diligent or able get the reward a month or so sooner, so they don't feel like 'man, I should've just been lazy last month,' since having something a month before everyone else is still a significant advantage.

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1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

The people who simply couldn't get 50k would get shafted by that, though. Putting pulse at the 10k or so level let's the lazier or less competent get the reward as well, so they feel like they're getting further and further behind. And the people who are diligent or able get the reward a month or so sooner, so they don't feel like 'man, I should've just been lazy last month,' since having something a month before everyone else is still a significant advantage.

Letting lazy and less competent people get rewards just makes them feel more entitled to future rewards.

One month is also well within the range of making your player base feel like their effort has been trampled on, and that's not a good business model.

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Phone wouldn't turn on for some reason. But a quick google search for the hard reset fixed the issue. Press and hold Home + Power for 20 seconds. I'm at 46.5K. Just a bit further!

 

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6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Letting lazy and less competent people get rewards just makes them feel more entitled to future rewards.

One month is also well within the range of making your player base feel like their effort has been trampled on, and that's not a good business model.

There are more lazy and less competent people than competent and diligent people. If one demographic had to be axed, it would be the competent and diligent people.

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1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

There are more lazy and less competent people than competent and diligent people. If one demographic had to be axed, it would be the competent and diligent people.

For a free-to-play game that relies on microtransactions, the number of people in a demographic doesn't matter as much as the amount of money earned through those people. Paying players are more likely to be diligent and more likely to be competent. Pissing off your source of revenue is not a good business decision no matter how you look at it.

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3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

For a free-to-play game that relies on microtransactions, the number of people in a demographic doesn't matter as much as the amount of money earned through those people. Paying players are more likely to be diligent and more likely to be competent. Pissing off your source of revenue is not a good business decision no matter how you look at it.

Even if they are individually more likely, 50% of 100 is still less than, say, 10% of 1000. (This is just numbers pulled out of my ass, mind, and not actual statistics.)

 

Besides, are you sure paying customers are more likely to be competent? You've experienced how sloppy +10 teams are in the upper end of the arena versus the relatively cutthroat world of only a couple + merges.

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A month is enough time for people who couldn't make 50k this time to prepare their teams to be ready for it next time.

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3 minutes ago, Othin said:

A month is enough time for people who couldn't make 50k this time to prepare their teams to be ready for it next time.

If it were a matter of ability, certainly. What what if it were a matter of diligence? What if, despite that they could consistently beat Lunatic with A speed, they don't want to bother running the 150 times it would entail?

No amount of preparation could change how willing someone is to grind in a game.

Edit: Just for example, I reached 50k at around 7 days left. I'm still at around 50k right now. I obviously have the ability to make 100k, yet I'm not going to.

Edited by DehNutCase

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Just now, DehNutCase said:

If it were a matter of ability, certainly. What what if it were a matter of diligence? What if, despite that they could consistently beat Lunatic with A speed, they don't want to bother running the 150 times it would entail?

No amount of preparation could change how willing someone is to grind in a game.

Then they don't get the rewards. If you aren't willing to grind, you don't get all the rewards for an especially grindy mode in a very grindy game.

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3 minutes ago, Othin said:

Then they don't get the rewards. If you aren't willing to grind, you don't get all the rewards for an especially grindy mode in a very grindy game.

In other words, the demographic you want to cater to is: Very able, very willing to grind.

 

Pay 2 Win is usually what you do when you are either less able or less willing to grind---paying skips either the grind requirement or the ability requirement. If the demographic you are catering you needs neither of those skipped... where is your money coming from? Edit: There's a third category, of course, that being: 'I want to be the best there is,' but how many of those do you get in a P2W game? Certainly some, but I think the ultra-competitive usually stay with games with a level playing field. That is, either like DotA where you only pay for cosmetics, or a subscription based system like WoW.

 

Edit: You're thinking of this from a 'I want to be an elitist' perspective, not from an 'how is a company going to make money' perspective.

Edited by DehNutCase

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1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

In other words, the demographic you want to cater to is: Very able, very willing to grind.

 

Pay 2 Win is usually what you do when you are either less able or less willing to grind---paying skips either the grind requirement or the ability requirement. If the demographic you are catering you needs neither of those skipped... where is your money coming from?

I don't know the rationale behind including the Tempest Trials mode in the first place, but my understanding is that it stands to make money from players who are willing to grind but aren't able to get enough points from grinding with just the stamina available so they need to drain their Stamina Potions and orbs, and from players who pull seeking better units either during the trials or afterward, in preparation for future ones.

It's worth bearing in mind that a key part of motivating players to do well in Tempest Trials is to create an expectation that if they want the rewards, they need to do well during the opportunity at hand because if they fail, it could be a long time before they get another chance at them. Making the rewards available just a month later conflicts with that, especially if the rewards are less demanding the second time around.

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Just now, Othin said:

I don't know the rationale behind including the Tempest Trials mode in the first place, but my understanding is that it stands to make money from players who are willing to grind but aren't able to get enough points from grinding with just the stamina available so they need to drain their Stamina Potions and orbs, and from players who pull seeking better units either during the trials or afterward, in preparation for future ones.

It's worth bearing in mind that a key part of motivating players to do well in Tempest Trials is to create an expectation that if they want the rewards, they need to do well during the opportunity at hand because if they fail, it could be a long time before they get another chance at them. Making the rewards available just a month later conflicts with that, especially if the rewards are less demanding the second time around.

If the 'best' reward in a given month is in the 50k tier, then the people who are willing to grind would continue grinding. I'm not saying the 50k reward would get replaced with 5 obs or the like, I'm saying the 50k reward would get replaced with, say, a Death Blow seal.

The less willing and able---a huge part of the game---would be able to get rewards at a slower pace than those willing and able---always a 'season' behind, so to speak. But, unlike what you desire, they're not 'hard-locked' out of the rewards.

The most willing and able will always have a months advantage in terms of 'cutting-edge.' If you want so much advantage from being willing to grind that the duration is 'forever' rather than '1 month,' then... *shrugg*. I can't imagine a company being willing to dumpster a big part of their player phase like that.

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Just now, Maymeimai said:

Does anyone know when TT ends exactly? I am almost at 50k and I don't want to lose it just because I didn't pay attention to the time left

There's 1 day 10 hours and 40min left. 

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Tempest could be P2Wed to make the grinding easier, though. Having units with better stats and skills will let the lazier people power through with less effort. Sure, they won't be able to skip the whole grind by throwing money at the problem, but they'll have a markedly easier time. An easier time might make the event more attractive to the people who would be otherwise hesitant to grind. Ergo, winning faster via an easier grind via P2W.

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16 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

If the 'best' reward in a given month is in the 50k tier, then the people who are willing to grind would continue grinding. I'm not saying the 50k reward would get replaced with 5 obs or the like, I'm saying the 50k reward would get replaced with, say, a Death Blow seal.

The less willing and able---a huge part of the game---would be able to get rewards at a slower pace than those willing and able---always a 'season' behind, so to speak. But, unlike what you desire, they're not 'hard-locked' out of the rewards.

The most willing and able will always have a months advantage in terms of 'cutting-edge.' If you want so much advantage from being willing to grind that the duration is 'forever' rather than '1 month,' then... *shrugg*. I can't imagine a company being willing to dumpster a big part of their player phase like that.

I didn't say anything about personally desiring it. I'm saying what I expect the game designers to want.

I'm basically locked out of certain builds and merges because I'm not willing to spend money on this game or allocate my limited resources the way I'd need to to get them. It's annoying, but that's just how this sort of game works.

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5 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Besides, are you sure paying customers are more likely to be competent? You've experienced how sloppy +10 teams are in the upper end of the arena versus the relatively cutthroat world of only a couple + merges.

Having a pool of good units matters more, and the +10 teams I've fought weren't really sloppy.

The armor team I called out previously was simply outdated and making incorrect assumptions about the teams it would be facing, and, to be fair, you don't ever see the teams your defense team goes up against so it's less apparent when your team is prepared for the wrong things. Alternatively, the team was specifically designed to single out teams with large numbers of armors and demolish them, which is still a reasonable way to build a defense team. You only need one win per week, after all.

On the other hand, you know exactly what your team is going up against in Tempest and can prepare accordingly. I figure that someone who spends a lot of money on the game at least has a roster large enough to handle Tempest even if their skills aren't quite as good.

 

13 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Even if they are individually more likely, 50% of 100 is still less than, say, 10% of 1000. (This is just numbers pulled out of my ass, mind, and not actual statistics.)

Comparing my own expenditures to what I commonly hear on the forums for giving in and whaling, I think you're underestimating how much whales spend.

 

8 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Pay 2 Win is usually what you do when you are either less able or less willing to grind---paying skips either the grind requirement or the ability requirement. If the demographic you are catering you needs neither of those skipped... where is your money coming from?

The problem is that the only grind you are getting around by paying is earning feathers. That's really it. You can't really grind for orbs since everyone is pretty much limited to the same amount of free orbs as everyone else.

A single $75 purchase is roughly a month and a half to two months of free orbs. You simply can't summon enough times on free orbs to get a +10 waifu or husbando in any reasonable amount of time, much less a full team of them, and that's almost certainly the reason whales whale in this game. Free players are probably closing in on the initial 200 unit box limit around now; I've made enough summons to fill the initial box limit 40 times over.

What you're paying for if you're paying in this game isn't to skip the grind. It's to get the waifu you have your eyes on. It's to get a Reinhardt to demolish foes in the Arena. It's to get another Hinoka to put Hone Fliers on your Flier Emblem team. Those aren't things you can simply grind for in a reasonable time frame.

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I have just under 10k because I just can't play the game all the time, and clearing Lunatic is such a painful drag that it makes it hard to play. I'll be incredibly lucky if I can even get 5* Masked Marth let alone Quickened Pulse

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4 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Comparing my own expenditures to what I commonly hear on the forums for giving in and whaling, I think you're underestimating how much whales spend.

Ah, the percentages were meant to be: 50% of these 100 try-hards will turn into whales, but 10% of these 1000 lazy asses would turn into whales. Not that these 100 people spend 50% of dollars and those 1000 lazy asses spend 10% of dollars.

5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

On the other hand, you know exactly what your team is going up against in Tempest and can prepare accordingly. I figure that someone who spends a lot of money on the game at least has a roster large enough to handle Tempest even if their skills aren't quite as good.

I have multiple teams that can clear up to the 7th map consistently, some of them are even using Vanilla builds (because I'm not going to spend feathers/units in order to beef up a unit I'm only bringing for HM reasons). Unit pool probably doesn't matter too much---unless I happen to be exceptionally lucky? I doubt it, though, since I'm using 4*s a lot, meaning 5*s should have an even better chance of being viable in tempest.

9 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The problem is that the only grind you are getting around by paying is earning feathers. That's really it. You can't really grind for orbs since everyone is pretty much limited to the same amount of free orbs as everyone else.

A single $75 purchase is roughly a month and a half to two months of free orbs. You simply can't summon enough times on free orbs to get a +10 waifu or husbando in any reasonable amount of time, much less a full team of them, and that's almost certainly the reason whales whale in this game. Free players are probably closing in on the initial 200 unit box limit around now; I've made enough summons to fill the initial box limit 40 times over.

There's not really much need to +10 a unit, though. Yeah, it makes your arena score higher will keeping difficulty the same---or even lowering it if it means you can swap out 'score skills' like Aether---but if you have +10 units already there's not much need to get the T20 rewards. For a 'casual' player, just having a copy of a unit is probably more than enough---not even a optimal copy, either, just the unit.

Aside: I've reached the 200 limit ages ago, and I started a few months late. They're actually very generous with free orbs and units.

9 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

What you're paying for if you're paying in this game isn't to skip the grind. It's to get the waifu you have your eyes on. It's to get a Reinhardt to demolish foes in the Arena. It's to get another Hinoka to put Hone Fliers on your Flier Emblem team. Those aren't things you can simply grind for in a reasonable time frame.

That depends on whether you count 'waiting' as a grind, I suppose. F2P orb income is actually quite high, at least high enough that you can more or less consistently get the unit you want in every 4th banner or so. Yeah, if you don't pay, you can't get all of what you want, now, but you can get enough of what you need that it shouldn't hurt to wait. And it's not like what you have now will get destroyed in the future (out classed, possibly, but we'll see how they deal with power-creep), so the things you want that you got stay gotten, unless one's desires outpace the orb income, just waiting is probably good enough.

Ex. I'd like 4 copies of Takumi and probably 2 more Reinhardts to build my lazy-ass 'just send Vantage Horse' at everything team, but it's a long term project, and I'm not particularly itching for it right this moment. (In fact, it's very low on my priorities list simply because, as high as the return is, since Rein's kind of BS, the cost is too high to make it worth it compared to investing in low investment units like Nino or Tharja.)

 

Besides, if I really wanted to run one particular team, I could always bust out the multi-box and start rerolling---I have an alt with 4 Hectors, and I've never even touched it after rolling it. Mainly because I realized I don't actually care too much about gimmicky teams compared to just having a good enough set of units to do all the content, and maybe squeeze enough extra feathers and orbs to make some unit builds I like rather than perfectly min-maxed to hell.

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dat Wings of Mercy Olwen... on the hillside map with the tree on it. And there's a Palla, too...

Lost nobody on it though. Reinhardt with Fortify Res 1 and Spur Res 3 buffs tanked Olwen (Olwen only had 38 Atk compared to Reinhardt's 31 Res with the buffs factored in). Olwen also had Noontime and proc'd it, preventing Palla from teleporting over (though Reinhardt would still survive anyways since Palla would only do a grand total of 2 damage).

5-turn clear though that's pretty good considering how cancerous that map is to non-flier teams.

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I gotta get my butt in gear just over 25K, and I know I can get the other 25K with Stamina potions. It's just trying to motivate myself to get there. (5* Marth is easily reached, it's just grinding to that last beautiful reward. Orbs aren't gonna kill me if I don't get, but I'll be disappointed if I don't get this likely never seen again seal.)

Naga give me strength, I just hope I can get my butt in gear and get it.

Edited by BrokenGrace

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