Tempest Torture

[Arthur97]

 

16 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

 For a 'casual' player, just having a copy of a unit is probably more than enough---not even a optimal copy, either, just the unit.

Can confirm. My Lucina is -Def/+Res. Hardly optimal, but I'm glad to have one (the one unit that has made me spend money so far...and she went on to be in two more focuses...and I even pulled one later when she wasn't even a focus unit). In general, I like to collect.

[Junkhead]

18 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

The tides have turned.

Will he make it to the 'Pulse?

Only time will tell.

What's your bottle count at this point?

I think I hit the 6th yesterday, courtesy of the Daily and one of the Arena Quests. I can actually get another two today, through the other Quests.

Currently sitting at about 34,2k. About to start out for the day. Turns out I might've actually made the 10k yesterday...

Edited June 20, 2017 by Soul~!

[Rosetta]

I'm more and more proficient in sacrificing Lissa (sorry!) and trapping Veronica in this location.

[Othin]

2 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

I'm more and more proficient in sacrificing Lissa (sorry!) and trapping Veronica in this location.

I'm sure her nieces aren't happy about that.

[Zeo]

...

THAT'S. NOT. FAIR.

[Ozil]

I need some advice. I have 34 Lucina, 34 Kagero, 33 Reinhardt, and 32 Klein all with their default abilities scaled up. Is it risky to try the lv 35 bracket?

[BrokenGrace]

Hmm, well I just finished a run and waiting to reach 20 stamina again, only made it and cleared the final map on two of my 5 runs today.

I wonder if there is a team I should be running instead. If anybody has advice with the below roster I'd appreciate it.

Currently I run 3 teams through Tempest Trials if they fail, well generally thats it for me.

Team 1: Marth, Bridal!Caeda, Jaffar, Olivia (Marth and Caeda have Renewal so they tend to last, Caeda was given Blarraven for extra effectiveness, Olivia is unfortunately only level 30 and a 4*.)

Team 2: Faye, Nowi, Tharja, Sakura (This team exists primarily to give me the 1.4x Unit Bonus, but occasionally clears the map.)

Team 3: Ike, Azura, Julia, Takumi (This team usually is my last resort team or just my main team for the final map. Their abilities are pretty standard, most are their base stuff with the addition of vantage on Takumi and Julia, Darting Blow Azura, Ike has Threaten Attack and Swap, yadda yadda.)

Occasionally I switch units around like if I make it to the end with Team 1, Team 2 usually looks like Team 3 but with one of the bonus units.

I also occasionally throw Subaki, F!Robin, Chrom, Narcian, and Kagero in a team if the map seems to be manipulable via Triangle.

I feel like I have potential in these units I just don't know if there is a better way to use them.

 

[MrSmokestack]

Just now, De Gea said:

I need some advice. I have 34 Lucina, 34 Kagero, 33 Reinhardt, and 32 Klein all with their default abilities scaled up. Is it risky to try the lv 35 bracket?

Just max everyone's levels. Your team is fine as is though a green mage would be a nice touch.

1 minute ago, BrokenGrace said:

Hmm, well I just finished a run and waiting to reach 20 stamina again, only made it and cleared the final map on two of my 5 runs today.

I wonder if there is a team I should be running instead. If anybody has advice with the below roster I'd appreciate it.

 

  Hide contents

 

Currently I run 3 teams through Tempest Trials if they fail, well generally thats it for me.

Team 1: Marth, Bridal!Caeda, Jaffar, Olivia (Marth and Caeda have Renewal so they tend to last, Caeda was given Blarraven for extra effectiveness, Olivia is unfortunately only level 30 and a 4*.)

Team 2: Faye, Nowi, Tharja, Sakura (This team exists primarily to give me the 1.4x Unit Bonus, but occasionally clears the map.)

Team 3: Ike, Azura, Julia, Takumi (This team usually is my last resort team or just my main team for the final map. Their abilities are pretty standard, most are their base stuff with the addition of vantage on Takumi and Julia, Darting Blow Azura, Ike has Threaten Attack and Swap, yadda yadda.)

Occasionally I switch units around like if I make it to the end with Team 1, Team 2 usually looks like Team 3 but with one of the bonus units.

I also occasionally throw Subaki, F!Robin, Chrom, Narcian, and Kagero in a team if the map seems to be manipulable via Triangle.

I feel like I have potential in these units I just don't know if there is a better way to use them.

 

 

 

I imagine you could 1-Team Tempest pretty well with a team of Tharja, Nowi, Julia, and Azura, though some SI would be needed. At a minimum, Desperation Tharja, Triangle Adept Nowi, and Hone Atk Azura work very well. G Tomebreaker or Quick Riposte Julia would be a nice touch, and she can provide healing support with Breath of Life with good positioning.

Speaking of positioning, Azura with Sing works even better with Draw Back Tharja, and Reposition or Swap on Nowi.

If you need a healer, you can field Sakura on Team 2 with Bride Caeda, Marth, and Olivia. You only need one bonus unit on any of your teams to recieve the multiplier bonus.

Hope this helps!

[Junkhead]

12 hours ago, Othin said:

I'm sure her nieces aren't happy about that.

looooool

 

On another note, 4 tries and I still haven't hit 35k from 34,2k. Go me.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Soul~!

[Okigen]

I hope next time they will reduce the grinding, giving the top prize at 30k or something and the remaining levels are rewarded with orbs.

Really this bored me so much that I didn't play FEH for a few day. I may forfeit the seal.

[Dual Dragons]

@Zeo That's rough. I think I've dealt with both in one map once, but it was easy to take care of them with my own Delete Button (Reinhardt).

 

I'm 100K+ now. That's one day ahead of schedule. I'm glad. Means I can focus on training up my new shiny 5* Camus. Maybe even use the Tempest Trials to get his SP up... though I wouldn't know how to compose a team with him as game-winning as my A team of Tharja, Reinhardt, Ninian, and Ryoma. No Vantage or Quick Riposte yet means he can't be as good as my Ryoma. Maybe I'll sac the last Lon'qu I have like I did with Ryoma.
 

Score: 100,077
Rank: 3,953

I'll just stay in the 5K bracket. Seems reasonable.

[Junkhead]

How I made it to where I am is beyond me

[MrSmokestack]

5 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

How I made it to where I am is beyond me

You not making it to 50k would be incredibly anticlimatic after all this buildup. Don't give in now!

What's your Hawkeye running, by the way?

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

I have multiple teams that can clear up to the 7th map consistently, some of them are even using Vanilla builds (because I'm not going to spend feathers/units in order to beef up a unit I'm only bringing for HM reasons). Unit pool probably doesn't matter too much---unless I happen to be exceptionally lucky? I doubt it, though, since I'm using 4*s a lot, meaning 5*s should have an even better chance of being viable in tempest.

You have the relationship reversed. You don't need a large roster to do well in Tempest. Having a large roster makes Tempest easier.

And being a whale means you almost certainly have a large roster.

 

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

There's not really much need to +10 a unit, though. Yeah, it makes your arena score higher will keeping difficulty the same---or even lowering it if it means you can swap out 'score skills' like Aether---but if you have +10 units already there's not much need to get the T20 rewards. For a 'casual' player, just having a copy of a unit is probably more than enough---not even a optimal copy, either, just the unit.

You're missing the point and thinking too pragmatically. My point is that the reasons you spend money on Heroes isn't to skip the grind, it's to get more stuff.

The amount of stuff ("stuff" operationally defined as "things related to summoning characters", which essentially is characters and feathers) you can get in this game for free is limited by a time wall. No matter how much you do in game, there's a point where you can no longer get more stuff for free without waiting. Paying is the only way to get more stuff without having to wait.

Nobody throws orbs at the summoning rock with the primary goal to get more SP (getting duplicates for merging is done first and foremost for the merge level, not the additional SP). Nobody throws orbs at the summoning rock with the primary goal to get a character to level 40 faster (getting characters that help get your characters to level 40 is done first and foremost to build a better team).

 

The end argument is basically: Whales in this game are not paying to skip the grind, so there's no reason to expect whales to be adverse to grinding an event for rewards. Stepping on dedicated players' efforts by significantly lowering the bar for a prestigious reward shortly after its initial release is not a good idea when whales are extremely likely to be a subset of the set of dedicated players.

[BrokenGrace]

23 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

I imagine you could 1-Team Tempest pretty well with a team of Tharja, Nowi, Julia, and Azura, though some SI would be needed. At a minimum, Desperation Tharja, Triangle Adept Nowi, and Hone Atk Azura work very well. G Tomebreaker or Quick Riposte Julia would be a nice touch, and she can provide healing support with Breath of Life with good positioning.

Speaking of positioning, Azura with Sing works even better with Draw Back Tharja, and Reposition or Swap on Nowi.

If you need a healer, you can field Sakura on Team 2 with Bride Caeda, Marth, and Olivia. You only need one bonus unit on any of your teams to recieve the multiplier bonus.

Hope this helps!

Hmm, well that does give me some thought, though SI at this point is impossible. I've never gotten a Triangle Adept or Desperation unit unfortunately. I've also believe it or not never pulled Henry (If I had G Tomebreaker Julia... mmm-mmmm)

Wouldn't I run into issues with that first team without a physical unit though?

[MaskedAmpharos]

36 minutes ago, BrokenGrace said:

Hmm, well I just finished a run and waiting to reach 20 stamina again, only made it and cleared the final map on two of my 5 runs today.

I wonder if there is a team I should be running instead. If anybody has advice with the below roster I'd appreciate it.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Currently I run 3 teams through Tempest Trials if they fail, well generally thats it for me.

Team 1: Marth, Bridal!Caeda, Jaffar, Olivia (Marth and Caeda have Renewal so they tend to last, Caeda was given Blarraven for extra effectiveness, Olivia is unfortunately only level 30 and a 4*.)

Team 2: Faye, Nowi, Tharja, Sakura (This team exists primarily to give me the 1.4x Unit Bonus, but occasionally clears the map.)

Team 3: Ike, Azura, Julia, Takumi (This team usually is my last resort team or just my main team for the final map. Their abilities are pretty standard, most are their base stuff with the addition of vantage on Takumi and Julia, Darting Blow Azura, Ike has Threaten Attack and Swap, yadda yadda.)

Occasionally I switch units around like if I make it to the end with Team 1, Team 2 usually looks like Team 3 but with one of the bonus units.

I also occasionally throw Subaki, F!Robin, Chrom, Narcian, and Kagero in a team if the map seems to be manipulable via Triangle.

I feel like I have potential in these units I just don't know if there is a better way to use them.

 

 

 

If it helps at all, the team I've been consistently getting deathless Lunatic runs with is Tharja, Ephraim, Nino, and Azura, which you have 3/4 units for. 

To be fair though, there was certainly some SI involved, most notably with giving Desperation to Tharja and Nino and Ephraim having Hone Spd (so that he buffs +4 spd, +2 res with the seal, and +12 total attack (since bonuses are converted to attack) for the blade mages just by standing next to them)

21 minutes ago, Okigen said:

I hope next time they will reduce the grinding, giving the top prize at 30k or something and the remaining levels are rewarded with orbs.

Really this bored me so much that I didn't play FEH for a few day. I may forfeit the seal.

The mere fact that the top prize is even possible for the majority of players to reach without spending premium currency speaks volumes about Nintendo's generosity. 50k is already more than low enough, and the bar really does not need to be set even lower to pander to people unwilling to put forth effort. 

[MrSmokestack]

5 minutes ago, BrokenGrace said:

Wouldn't I run into issues with that first team without a physical unit though?

Felicia stands out the most, though with -Blade and buffs to Spd even she isn't that much of a problem.

No Desperation or Adept is unfortunate, so you might want to consider running a healer with Recover or Rehabilitate, especially for the final map. Perhaps you can remove Nowi for one.

[Okigen]

Tr

4 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

If it helps at all, the team I've been consistently getting deathless Lunatic runs with is Tharja, Ephraim, Nino, and Azura, which you have 3/4 units for. 

To be fair though, there was certainly some SI involved, most notably with giving Desperation to Tharja and Nino and Ephraim having Hone Spd (so that he buffs +4 spd, +2 res with the seal, and +12 total attack (since bonuses are converted to attack) for the blade mages just by standing next to them)

The mere fact that the top prize is even possible for the majority of players to reach without spending premium currency speaks volumes about Nintendo's generosity. 50k is already more than low enough, and the bar really does not need to be set even lower to pander to people unwilling to put forth effort. 

True, I don't complain about Nintendo's generosity. They have been very very supportive with free orbs and I think it's way above my expectation.

But what I mean is the repetitive level of the trial and that it's become a grindfest which tired people out instead of hooking them in. Assuming you get the max score of  705 per run, in order to get the quickened seal you need 71 perfect run i.e around 5 runs per day i.e. 35 matches per day. Even if they are easy, I think 35 maps are still a sizable number, not to mention they rotate only several maps around so you can't avoid the thought 'Oh this map again......'. 

That is if you have max score. In many cases people don't for various reasons so you will need more than 35 matches. 

That is not to say TT is horrible. I think it's good. But it could be improved so that the top seal/unit can be obtained at a lower score and from then on the rewards are orbs to encourage f2p players to continue to grind while others can stop to avoid being tired out and got bored.

[MaskedAmpharos]

22 minutes ago, Okigen said:

True, I don't complain about Nintendo's generosity. They have been very very supportive with free orbs and I think it's way above my expectation.

But what I mean is the repetitive level of the trial and that it's become a grindfest which tired people out instead of hooking them in. Assuming you get the max score of  705 per run, in order to get the quickened seal you need 71 perfect run i.e around 5 runs per day i.e. 35 matches per day. Even if they are easy, I think 35 maps are still a sizable number, not to mention they rotate only several maps around so you can't avoid the thought 'Oh this map again......'. 

That is if you have max score. In many cases people don't for various reasons so you will need more than 35 matches. 

That is not to say TT is horrible. I think it's good. But it could be improved so that the top seal/unit can be obtained at a lower score and from then on the rewards are orbs to encourage f2p players to continue to grind while others can stop to avoid being tired out and got bored.

Perhaps it's just a difference in perspective/expectation. 

I didn't think the grind was that bad because I was comparing it to the grinds involved in other gacha games' events, which are far worse. However, within the context of just Heroes in a vacuum, this is definitely by far the most grind-heavy event, so I can understand people being thrown off. 

If we're assuming perfect runs though, you only need to be about 30% efficient with your stamina to get the seal, which means you could spend most of your stamina on non-Tempest stuff or just simply spend a bunch of time doing non-Heroes stuff and letting your stamina overflow and still get the seal. I think people tend to exaggerate how single-mindedly focused you need to be on grinding to get the seal. 

I also think a lot of the blame falls on the people who choose to spend a lot of time and effort grinding when they aren't enjoying themselves. Gacha events in general are not designed for most players to get the best rewards. The rewards are generally tiered in a way that the top players (even if that simply means the top spenders and not the best players because they want to encourage spending) get the top rewards, people in the middle get the middle rewards, and the people at the lower end get lower rewards. In my eyes, the Quick Pulse seal is the top reward, with the 5* Marth being the middle reward, and the 4* Marth being the lower reward. If you look at it that way, it's designed so that, for people with good teams who can consistently get max score, getting the seal isn't too daunting (but it would be for people who cannot consistently score well). However, getting the 5* Marth reward is at a good amount of grinding for people in the middle, and the 4* Marth reward is at a reasonable point milestone for people below that. Most games would enforce this more severely by letting only a specific number of top scoring people attain the highest rewards, but Nintendo is nice in that it leaves it open so that you can get higher tier rewards if you grind enough even if the event wasn't designed for you get it easily. However, with that in mind, if you desire reward tiers that are higher up than your performance tier, then of course you will have to grind really, really hard, maybe uncomfortably so because the event was never designed for you to be able to comfortably get them in the first place. And if you choose to aim for the higher rewards even so, then any fatigue and tedium you feel can only be blamed on you and not the game or its developers. 

Put in a simpler way, imagine you're in an RPG game and have the choice between three different quest lines. 

• Quest 1 is for level 1-10 players and gives a bronze chest reward.
• Quest 2 is for level 11-20 players and gives a silver chest reward. 
• Quest 3 is for level 21-30 players and gives a gold chest reward. 

The quests are designed so that if you are in that level range, the quest won't be too difficult for you.

However, in the case of Heroes, the quests are not level-locked (the level ranges are merely a recommendation), so a level 12 player can do Quest 3 and try to get the gold chest reward. But it's too hard for them because Quest 3 wasn't designed for a level 12 player to complete. Makes sense, right? Except the level 12 player is complaining that Quest 3 is too difficult and should be made easier. 

That's how I see this situation.

(And if you're a player that's level 25 and can complete Quest 3 without too much trouble but thinks it takes too much work, then I'm going to have to disagree with you there because I think that getting to the QP seal isn't very grindy at all if you can consistently get max score or close to it. And if you can't consistently get max score then you aren't the type of player Quest 3 is designed for.)

With all that said, I hope I didn't come off as too negative. You do seem like you overall like the idea of the event and seem like a pretty reasonable person in general who isn't exactly raging at the developers or anything (so apologies if I made it sound like you were). I guess I've just been rather annoyed by all the people complaining about the grind when they aren't forced to grind so much in the first place. The fact that it's literally even possible for them to get the best rewards with grinding (albeit a lot of it) is already amazing, and I don't think the bar needs to be set any lower. 

Edited June 20, 2017 by MaskedAmpharos

[Junkhead]

Just now, MrSmokestack said:

You not making it to 50k would be incredibly anticlimatic after all this buildup. Don't give in now!

What's your Hawkeye running, by the way?

He's pretty solid and key for my team:

Axebreaker is really good, as it allows him to 1RKO other axies. Tempest enemies are significicantly more bulky, but he can 1RKO Arena Hectors. Really itching for Bowbreaker. Also, I switch between Threaten Atk and Def.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Soul~!

[Sunwoo]

I'm at 99,773 points right now. One more match should get me to 100k, whether I fuck up or not.

Thank you, stamina potions from this morning.

[Okigen]

@MaskedAmpharos no I didn't feel offended and I hope I didn't come across as one either.

I don't have experience with gacha games so can't speak about industry norms, but as a player in FEH I sincerely want to make it better so that the game can survive for a longer time, and in order to do so the game needs to accommodate for requests from its fan base. The fact that people already calling TT the grindfest means I'm not the only one of this opinion. What concerns me is that TT is a good idea, but the way it is being executed may make people emotionally exhausted rather than excited and they will withdraw eventually since they are too 'used' to the game after playing so many maps. I'm not sure if Japan - the game's main market - are more open to such level of grinding, but my feeling after reading English forums is that the EU/US players are less welcome. 

[MaskedAmpharos]

23 minutes ago, Okigen said:

@MaskedAmpharos no I didn't feel offended and I hope I didn't come across as one either.

I don't have experience with gacha games so can't speak about industry norms, but as a player in FEH I sincerely want to make it better so that the game can survive for a longer time, and in order to do so the game needs to accommodate for requests from its fan base. The fact that people already calling TT the grindfest means I'm not the only one of this opinion. What concerns me is that TT is a good idea, but the way it is being executed may make people emotionally exhausted rather than excited and they will withdraw eventually since they are too 'used' to the game after playing so many maps. I'm not sure if Japan - the game's main market - are more open to such level of grinding, but my feeling after reading English forums is that the EU/US players are less welcome. 

I see where you're coming from, but I just worry that Nintendo giving into these complaints will lead to a slippery slope of people feeling entitled when it's not easy enough to get the rewards they want and complaining to Nintendo to change that for them. 

I think part of the problem with this event (and part of why there's so much complaining) isn't so much the amount of grinding but rather the lack of variety. The grinding by itself is somewhat tedious but not unbearably so (at least in my eyes), but when the grinding occurs on the same handful of maps over and over, I can definitely understand players feeling worn out more quickly. 

In that case, my suggestion would be to not reduce the points to 50k but rather make the grind to 50k less monotonous by adding more variety. 

An additional suggestion would be to increase the number of points earned per round but also increase stamina cost to compensate. This way you're still spending the same amount of stamina to get the rewards you want, but you wouldn't need to repeat as many runs. In fact, Nintendo could even do both! In one of the gacha games I used to play, players would have to grind event maps for points, much like in Heroes. However, there was an option to spend 4x the amount of energy/stamina to play the map and get 4x the amount of points. The tradeoff, of course, is that if you messed up during the run, then it would be as if you messed up four Tempest runs instead of just one. Since that game was much more competitive in terms of score cutoffs for rewards, messing up a 4x run would be quite punishing. Additionally, it was less efficient since, while you got the same amount of event points from a 4x run from doing a single run 4 times, you only get the same amount of gold (also earned during maps) as one completion of a map. So in Heroes terms, doing a 4x run would be less HM and SP efficient.

I think that if Nintendo added that option, letting players choose to spend extra stamina on a run to also make it worth extra points (while keeping the original option intact for people who wish to use the event to grind SP/HM), then that would solve a lot of the complaints about how grindy the event feels.

tldr - I don't think the score cutoff for rewards should be lowered, but instead I think Nintendo could alleviate the tedium by adding map variety but more importantly alleviate the amount of grinding by adding the option to spend more stamina for more points (ex: 60 stamina for a Lunatic run with a max reward of 2115 points) 

Since it would be an optional setting, the players who simply want to grind less can use the option but get less HM out of it while the players who want to grind HM efficiently can simply choose to not use the multiplier. Everyone wins.

EDIT: May as well tag @DehNutCase and @Ice Dragon in this and see how they feel about the suggestion, since I've been seeing them and Ice discussing a similar issue. 

I guess @Rezzy too since she just weighed in on the issue.

Edited June 21, 2017 by MaskedAmpharos

[Junkhead]

On 19/6/2017 at 3:54 AM, Soul~! said:

good lord how in the fuck am I still stuck at 26k

okay 28k I need sleep

Can't believe this was yesterday. That was almost 10k ago...

[DehNutCase]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

The end argument is basically: Whales in this game are not paying to skip the grind, so there's no reason to expect whales to be adverse to grinding an event for rewards. Stepping on dedicated players' efforts by significantly lowering the bar for a prestigious reward shortly after its initial release is not a good idea when whales are extremely likely to be a subset of the set of dedicated players.

Fair enough about the grind thing---personally I'm so lazy that the only 'grind' I do is the stuff I can auto-battle through.

 

Question about the prestigious reward thing, would you be fine with it if they released the Pulse seal, say, 2 months later as an easier reward? 3 Months? How long is 'long enough'? (And what even makes a reward prestigious, anyway? I feel like GHB inferno is more prestigious than the seal, because the GHB is a skill check, whereas TT is just a 'are you bored yet' check.)