Ike's Dissonance

[fangpoint333]

On 6/21/2017 at 3:04 AM, Jotari said:

Is that really better though? FE7 can either be about Eliwood and his journeys, or it can be about the guy observing Eliwood do all this stuff while he sits around and does nothing. It just reminds me of how the excs demanded Final Fantasy 12 have a hip young lead since they didn't think the grizzled bad ass could sell copies of the game, so they shove Vann into the plot and upset the flow of the entire story.

I have to agree with this. If the story was the exact same but Mark was an actual character, it would just steal focus for the actual interesting characters. Your character would have to be included in a bunch of important scenes just so you can feel like they're included even when you have no proper business there. Scenes that would focus on you would be better spent on focusing on the actual important people. It would be like playing the entire game from the perspective of Dorcas or Wil. The closest thing we had to it was the Avatar in New mystery and we all know how that turned out.

Maybe something closer to ideal would be something similar to playing as Sothe from RD. Even then the game took the time to mock how out of place he was in important events and how he was just a less than ideal gameplay unit by endgame as he was mediocre at best and there were more qualified units to be there like Volke. Even then people would enjoy the story more from the POV of the actual leaders who are the ones who develop their various relationships with the other important allies and villains, rather than just having your character just chime in with something to say every now and then.

 

Edited June 24, 2017 by fangpoint333

[bethany81707]

10 minutes ago, fangpoint333 said:

I have to agree with this. If the story was the exact same but Mark was an actual character, it would just steal focus for the actual interesting characters. Your character would have to be included in a bunch of important scenes just so you can feel like they're included even when you have no proper business there. Scenes that would focus on you would be better spent on focusing on the actual important people. It would be like playing the entire game from the perspective of Dorcas or Wil. The closest thing we had to it was the Avatar in New mystery and we all know how that turned out.

Maybe something closer to ideal would be something similar to playing as Sothe from RD. Even then the game took the time to mock how out of place he was in important events and how he was just a less than ideal gameplay unit by endgame as he was mediocre at best and there were more qualified units to be there like Volke. Even then people would enjoy the story more from the POV of the actual leaders who are the ones who develop their various relationships with the other important allies and villains, rather than just having your character just chime in with something to say every now and then.

 

What I'd look for, honestly, is for them to take a leaf out of Shadows of Valentia's book. Have the Avatar and some select minor characters (possibly changing depending on the chapter) serve as a Greek Chorus of sorts after the important characters have finished talking.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, fangpoint333 said:

I have to agree with this. If the story was the exact same but Mark was an actual character, it would just steal focus for the actual interesting characters. Your character would have to be included in a bunch of important scenes just so you can feel like they're included even when you have no proper business there. Scenes that would focus on you would be better spent on focusing on the actual important people. It would be like playing the entire game from the perspective of Dorcas or Wil. The closest thing we had to it was the Avatar in New mystery and we all know how that turned out.

Maybe something closer to ideal would be something similar to playing as Sothe from RD. Even then the game took the time to mock how out of place he was in important events and how he was just a less than ideal gameplay unit by endgame as he was mediocre at best and there were more qualified units to be there like Volke. Even then people would enjoy the story more from the POV of the actual leaders who are the ones who develop their various relationships with the other important allies and villains, rather than just having your character just chime in with something to say every now and then.

 

Reminds me of one of George R. R Martin's frequently referenced story in interviews. He was working on an episode of the Twilight Zone revival and he wanted to adapt a modern day King Arthur story that someone else wrote. After submitting the script the exc said that the pitch of the show was "Extraordinary things happening to ordinary people" and nobody in the story was ordinary (as it featured Lancelot and Merlin etc). So he was forced to include some random guy in the story who's purpose was to just stand there and be all wow, this is so extraordinary. I haven't seen the episode but it sounds so forced as to be amusing.

[fangpoint333]

21 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

What I'd look for, honestly, is for them to take a leaf out of Shadows of Valentia's book. Have the Avatar and some select minor characters (possibly changing depending on the chapter) serve as a Greek Chorus of sorts after the important characters have finished talking.

You'd still need a way for them to learn information that normally wouldn't be privy to that the important characters would. It would be like skipping first scene at the Dragon's or the first time you meet Athos and his info dumps. A better example would be skipping all of the scenes about the medallion since that was a secret known only by a handful of people.

 

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

Reminds me of one of George R. R Martin's frequently referenced story in interviews. He was working on an episode of the Twilight Zone revival and he wanted to adapt a modern day King Arthur story that someone else wrote. After submitting the script the exc said that the pitch of the show was "Extraordinary things happening to ordinary people" and nobody in the story was ordinary (as it featured Lancelot and Merlin etc). So he was forced to include some random guy in the story who's purpose was to just stand there and be all wow, this is so extraordinary. I haven't seen the episode but it sounds so forced as to be amusing.

It probably won't be intentionally funny since it's the Twilight Zone. But yeah, I would hate playing a game from a POV like that and I already have because FF12 lol.

[bethany81707]

1 hour ago, fangpoint333 said:

You'd still need a way for them to learn information that normally wouldn't be privy to that the important characters would. It would be like skipping first scene at the Dragon's or the first time you meet Athos and his info dumps. A better example would be skipping all of the scenes about the medallion since that was a secret known only by a handful of people.

 

Were Gray/Tobin and Mae/Boey really that much out of the loop?

[fangpoint333]

13 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

Were Gray/Tobin and Mae/Boey really that much out of the loop?

The plot of that game wasn't really one that hinged on a lot of really important secrets that only certain people would know. The only real secrets about about Alm and Celica's Origins. They reveal Celica is a princess like within the first 5 mins of her story and Alm doesn't find out his until the very end and that was a secret meant to be revealed to the world if he won. It wouldn't work for something like FE9 or FE10.

[Etrurian emperor]

One thing that always was a bit of a dissonance to me about Ike is that despite his reputation of being open minded he's actually quite a bigot when it comes to groups he doesn't like.

Ike generally voices disdain of the entirely nobility and just shrugs off the ones he likes as weird exceptions to the general rule of nobles being scumbags. When in Begnion this is somewhat acceptable but after meeting much more normal nobles like the Delbay siblings and Bastian Ike still never really grows out of this mindset. In RD he still mocks the noble class on a fairly regular basis.

Granted, the Begnion senators are quite clearly a bunch of freaks but Ike doesn't really interact with them all that often. He has his little game of wits and words but after that even the Begnion nobles he meets most with are fairly normal people as he tends to talk to Sigrun, Zelgius, Sephiran or directly to Sanaki herself. 

The good nobles Ike knows and meets outnumber the evil ones and the freaks by quite a lot.

Ike also expresses discomfort at fighting Tormod's gang because they are Laguz which implies he find fighting Beorc much more acceptable. Seems a tad racist. 

[Augestein]

On 6/21/2017 at 3:04 AM, Jotari said:

Is that really better though? FE7 can either be about Eliwood and his journeys, or it can be about the guy observing Eliwood do all this stuff while he sits around and does nothing. It just reminds me of how the excs demanded Final Fantasy 12 have a hip young lead since they didn't think the grizzled bad ass could sell copies of the game, so they shove Vann into the plot and upset the flow of the entire story. Of course ordinary, unremarkable characters can be at the centre of a story, but if the story is inherently about unremarkable, wide scope, continent spanning stuff then it kind of makes little sense for the protagonist to be some generic nobody who does nothing (and Roy is arguably more special than Ike with his own destined sword and the ability to always be right no matter what. Like I love Roy as a character because of how he reasons and works out things but given the set up, he definitely is a remarkable character).

Like I don't think an unremarkable character is something the series can't do, I just think the example your providing (and trying to turn something like Tellius into something like it) isn't as solid as it seems. Conversely, I would love to see a plot that focuses on a smaller area with an emphasis on how war effects everyone. With a protagonist that's just trying to protect what he can within his limited control while the actual resolution with the great prince and evil emperor happens in the backdrop.

Not necessarily better or worse. But the tactician wasn't merely observing Eliwood. (S)he was Eliwood's tactician. That's a key player in Eliwood's army without actually needing to be the main character. Think about someone like Soren in PoR or RD. Soren definitely has a role, and is a support member, and I'd go so far as to say that he's a main character as well. However, it's clear that he is not the main character of the story. The game has Ike and Elincia be the most important characters over the course of the tale. Vaan isn't the same thing as Mark, or Soren because Vaan really has no role outside of "perspective," and in that regard he doesn't actually bring anything to the table that characters like Balthier or even Fran bring. Roy actually isn't really special tbh. FE7 is what brings him up to "special." Before then, he's merely doing his job as Eliwood's son and gets dragged further and further along. He's not like Alm, Chrom, Sigurd, Marth or even Corrin that get special "blood" swords so to speak, his weapon just so happens to be the blade that is the binding blade. It makes sense that he can use it, but it's not like it's destined for him specifically. Roy being a reasonable person rather than a fighter isn't a bad thing, and just because he wasn't wrong through logic and reasoning isn't nearly as bad as Corrin or Ike in that regard, because there IS largely no logic behind their actions outside of personal feelings. 

I would actually love a plot like that. 

@Etrurian emperor

And this is also a valid point as well. It is a massive problem with Ike's character as well, and I'm sure the writers didn't even consider it. 

[bethany81707]

18 minutes ago, Augestein said:

Not necessarily better or worse. But the tactician wasn't merely observing Eliwood. (S)he was Eliwood's tactician. That's a key player in Eliwood's army without actually needing to be the main character. Think about someone like Soren in PoR or RD. Soren definitely has a role, and is a support member, and I'd go so far as to say that he's a main character as well. However, it's clear that he is not the main character of the story. The game has Ike and Elincia be the most important characters over the course of the tale. Vaan isn't the same thing as Mark, or Soren because Vaan really has no role outside of "perspective," and in that regard he doesn't actually bring anything to the table that characters like Balthier or even Fran bring. Roy actually isn't really special tbh. FE7 is what brings him up to "special." Before then, he's merely doing his job as Eliwood's son and gets dragged further and further along. He's not like Alm, Chrom, Sigurd, Marth or even Corrin that get special "blood" swords so to speak, his weapon just so happens to be the blade that is the binding blade. It makes sense that he can use it, but it's not like it's destined for him specifically. Roy being a reasonable person rather than a fighter isn't a bad thing, and just because he wasn't wrong through logic and reasoning isn't nearly as bad as Corrin or Ike in that regard, because there IS largely no logic behind their actions outside of personal feelings. 

@fangpoint333 This might help explain my idea. If the Avatar is a tactician, they'll likely know whatever secrets you think are necessary to keep from the rest of the army.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Augestein said:

Not necessarily better or worse. But the tactician wasn't merely observing Eliwood. (S)he was Eliwood's tactician. That's a key player in Eliwood's army without actually needing to be the main character. Think about someone like Soren in PoR or RD. Soren definitely has a role, and is a support member, and I'd go so far as to say that he's a main character as well. However, it's clear that he is not the main character of the story. The game has Ike and Elincia be the most important characters over the course of the tale. Vaan isn't the same thing as Mark, or Soren because Vaan really has no role outside of "perspective," and in that regard he doesn't actually bring anything to the table that characters like Balthier or even Fran bring. Roy actually isn't really special tbh. FE7 is what brings him up to "special." Before then, he's merely doing his job as Eliwood's son and gets dragged further and further along. He's not like Alm, Chrom, Sigurd, Marth or even Corrin that get special "blood" swords so to speak, his weapon just so happens to be the blade that is the binding blade. It makes sense that he can use it, but it's not like it's destined for him specifically. Roy being a reasonable person rather than a fighter isn't a bad thing, and just because he wasn't wrong through logic and reasoning isn't nearly as bad as Corrin or Ike in that regard, because there IS largely no logic behind their actions outside of personal feelings. 

I would actually love a plot like that. 

@Etrurian emperor

And this is also a valid point as well. It is a massive problem with Ike's character as well, and I'm sure the writers didn't even consider it. 

Eh, have you played Binding Blade? The Sword of Seals is probably the most special weapon in the series. Roy was specifically chosen to wield it. He tries to dismiss it as coincidence but Elphin pushes the fact that he is literally chosen by fate to wield it. I guess there's no specific statement that nobody else could pick it up and use it but a large deal is made about how it's connected to Roy and the gameplay supports that with it being the only legendary weapon that has a prf rank (well except Eckesachs).

[Vaximillian]

On 21.06.2017 at 2:04 PM, Jotari said:

and Roy is arguably more special than Ike with his own destined sword and the ability to always be right no matter what

Actually, this fits Ike to a T: his own destined sword and the ability to always be right no matter what.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Vaximillian said:

Actually, this fits Ike to a T: his own destined sword and the ability to always be right no matter what.

Except theres nothing destined about Ike's sword.

[Augestein]

40 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Eh, have you played Binding Blade? The Sword of Seals is probably the most special weapon in the series. Roy was specifically chosen to wield it. He tries to dismiss it as coincidence but Elphin pushes the fact that he is literally chosen by fate to wield it. I guess there's no specific statement that nobody else could pick it up and use it but a large deal is made about how it's connected to Roy and the gameplay supports that with it being the only legendary weapon that has a prf rank (well except Eckesachs).

I'd say that's Elphin pushing Roy to have the confidence to wield the sword more than anything else. It's no different than Mani Katti's behavior to Lyndis in FE7 in that regard. That doesn't mean that Roy is the only one that can use it ever. It just says that the SoS/BB found Roy worthy of using it so it chose him. A large deal isn't made out of it. Roy is dismissive, but Elphin is not-- which just shows the contrasts between the two characters. One believes in fate / destiny and the other does not. Also  if that's the case, then Ike also has this problem as well with Ragnell. As there's no reason it should be PRF, and is made even worse that its sister blade Alondite is just able to be used by anyone. No. Swords like Falchion or Corrin's Yato are far more special than the SoS / BB. 

 

37 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Except theres nothing destined about Ike's sword.

There's nothing definitive about Roy's being destined either. The sword chose Roy, there's no reason to believe that he was the only one that could have used it. Since Roy touched it first and it reacted positively to him, there isn't any reason to pass it to everyone else in the army. 

[Jotari]

31 minutes ago, Augestein said:

I'd say that's Elphin pushing Roy to have the confidence to wield the sword more than anything else. It's no different than Mani Katti's behavior to Lyndis in FE7 in that regard. That doesn't mean that Roy is the only one that can use it ever. It just says that the SoS/BB found Roy worthy of using it so it chose him. A large deal isn't made out of it. Roy is dismissive, but Elphin is not-- which just shows the contrasts between the two characters. One believes in fate / destiny and the other does not. Also  if that's the case, then Ike also has this problem as well with Ragnell. As there's no reason it should be PRF, and is made even worse that its sister blade Alondite is just able to be used by anyone. No. Swords like Falchion or Corrin's Yato are far more special than the SoS / BB. 

 

There's nothing definitive about Roy's being destined either. The sword chose Roy, there's no reason to believe that he was the only one that could have used it. Since Roy touched it first and it reacted positively to him, there isn't any reason to pass it to everyone else in the army. 

I disagree, but I will concede that it is open to interpretation, and I appreciate the writing for that. Me, personally playing the game, with Hartmutt's memories and the game being named after the sword, gave me the impression that the sword and its relationship to Roy is more special than any other game. While Ragnell is confirmed to have no special connection to Ike whatsoever and could be used by anyone. The prf rank is just so Ike can use it even if you somehow didn't train him (since making the legendary weapon E rank would have felt...underwhelming). Alondite is also a prf weapon in Path of Radiance but SS in Radiant Dawn. The fact that it's prf isn't even the thing that's stopping other characters from theoretically using it. It's the fact that it's locked to Ike's character. They could have given you the ability to trade it and have it be unusable by anyone else like previous prf weapons but the act of locking and removing that possibility from the player shows that it could be used by anyone in theory.

[fangpoint333]

I always just thought of it as Roy being the one to use the Binding Blade because he used the Fire Emblem to unlock it and that was entrusted to him by Guinevere. Giving it to someone else would be silly.

Ike having Ragnell has nothing destined about it. BK gave it to his dad because he wanted a proper duel. Ike picked it up because BK left it for him and nobody else was around. He kept it secret from the rest of the army as he thought having it would somehow allow him to meet BK again. BK says that sword is the only thing to beat his armor and Ike wants to duel BK. Then he gives it back to Sanaki after the war and then she gives it back to him as payment in RD. Nothing destined about it.

[henrymidfields]

On ‎18‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 5:00 PM, Troykv said:

Do you think I should not buy SoV?

To be honest I also am wondering about this; I'm actually thinking about giving this a miss...

[fangpoint333]

15 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

To be honest I also am wondering about this; I'm actually thinking about giving this a miss...

It's as good of a 3DS remake as they could have done for a game that's over 2 decades old. The plot isn't anything special but artistically it's pretty good.

[NekoKnight]

Sounds like OP is bitter that Elincia couldn't be more central to PoR.

Almost all of the criticisms you give are addressed in game.

>Ike is becomes the leader of the GM because he was always supposed to. Some people are cool with this, others are not.
>Ike gets away with trespassing in Goldoa because Kurthnaga is a benign character, not because Ike is special
>Ike gets away (although not before being scolded for it) with insulting Sanaki because she has a purpose for him and she's not a vindictive person
>Ike is present for important scenes and becomes the general because he's the leader of the group fighting for Elincia.

As for the legendary sword and blessed armor bits , Ike kept the sword because it was relevant to his father's murder. Anyone could use it. The restrictions on the weapon are just a gameplay decision.  I'll give you credit on Ike not facing consequences for mouthing off to Sanaki a second time, but in general, the game is good at justifying its direction.

Ike isn't a chosen one. He's a protagonist. Protagonists often play a significant role in their stories.

[Sunwoo]

Speaking as someone who's been mostly neutral towards Ike for the past few years, I do have to agree with NekoKnight. RD!Ike for sure has issues, and PoR!Ike may not be the most likable protagonist either. But his story comes off as far less "chosen one"-ish than, like, Corrin. (What I've been hearing about Alm may also qualify, but I don't want to make that call when I haven't finished Echoes yet.) Rather, Ike's perks in-story are more the perks of being the protagonist, kind of like almost any other protagonist.

[a bear]

11 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I'll give you credit on Ike not facing consequences for mouthing off to Sanaki a second time, but in general, the game is good at justifying its direction.

The second rude-to-the-Apostle part was the explanation of the Serenes Massacre. She's completely disarmed the moment she realizes what Ike's asking her about. Nasir also lays into her and she excuses him as well. Guilt's a powerful thing.

[NekoKnight]

1 minute ago, a bear said:

The second rude-to-the-Apostle part was the explanation of the Serenes Massacre. She's completely disarmed the moment she realizes what Ike's asking her about. Nasir also lays into her and she excuses him as well. Guilt's a powerful thing.

Ah, I've not played PoR in a long time. Looks like even that part had a reasonable justification.

[bethany81707]

5 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Ah, I've not played PoR in a long time. Looks like even that part had a reasonable justification.

At this part, she's also using Ike to investigate the senators (there was probably some political reason not to use the Holy Guard, though I can't remember what). Executing him is a death sentence for the Laguz she's trying to save.

And at that point, we'd probably call her selfish for putting her ego above the lives of many laguz.

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, phineas81707 said:

At this part, she's also using Ike to investigate the senators (there was probably some political reason not to use the Holy Guard, though I can't remember what). Executing him is a death sentence for the Laguz she's trying to save.

I don't believe an actual reason is given why Sanaki can't use the Holy Guard instead- even though it seems to be under her direct control with little oversight by the Senate. Perhaps she could hide her actions better this way- the Senate would be suspicious of the Holy Guard doing things and demand an answer, even if they can't block such actions. Whereas Sanaki can just excuse whatever she's having Ike do as "I'm just testing Princess Crimea's escort to see if she's worthy of Our aid" and then not given an exact answer as to what exactly she's having Ike do under grounds of confidential diplomacy. A mercenary group from within Begnion wouldn't have worked- as the Senate could ask what the Apostle was doing consorting with lowly mercenaries.

We do have to ask ourselves when Sanaki first conceived of this plan though. Was it established by the time she taunts Elincia? Given the GMs saved her life, it's possible that Sanaki already had her plan in mind by the time of Ike's outburst, given a few days to travel from the coast to Sienne and then a little time waiting for the formal reception of Elincia. In which case, Ike, while still possibly in danger of losing his life had he acted like a complete beast, may have in hindsight had little to fear from his outburst in the first place.

This has me thinking- how was Sanaki inculcated with such guilt towards the Massacre? She's only a child. Does her youth and innocence play a role? Perhaps Sephiran bred it into her? 

[bethany81707]

5 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

This has me thinking- how was Sanaki inculcated with such guilt towards the Massacre? She's only a child. Does her youth and innocence play a role? Perhaps Sephiran bred it into her? 

We're talking about someone who is a heron and is planning on destroying the world because of that very massacre.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I don't believe an actual reason is given why Sanaki can't use the Holy Guard instead- even though it seems to be under her direct control with little oversight by the Senate. Perhaps she could hide her actions better this way- the Senate would be suspicious of the Holy Guard doing things and demand an answer, even if they can't block such actions. Whereas Sanaki can just excuse whatever she's having Ike do as "I'm just testing Princess Crimea's escort to see if she's worthy of Our aid" and then not given an exact answer as to what exactly she's having Ike do under grounds of confidential diplomacy. A mercenary group from within Begnion wouldn't have worked- as the Senate could ask what the Apostle was doing consorting with lowly mercenaries.

We do have to ask ourselves when Sanaki first conceived of this plan though. Was it established by the time she taunts Elincia? Given the GMs saved her life, it's possible that Sanaki already had her plan in mind by the time of Ike's outburst, given a few days to travel from the coast to Sienne and then a little time waiting for the formal reception of Elincia. In which case, Ike, while still possibly in danger of losing his life had he acted like a complete beast, may have in hindsight had little to fear from his outburst in the first place.

This has me thinking- how was Sanaki inculcated with such guilt towards the Massacre? She's only a child. Does her youth and innocence play a role? Perhaps Sephiran bred it into her? 

Sins of the fathers. Most of the people living in Germany today weren't even alive during World War II yet there's still a great sense of shame or remorse over what their nation did.