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Raigh vs Lilina


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After screwing around with calcs out of a stubborn refusal to actually be productive, I found something I considered to be noteworthy

Spoiler

 

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With what I've been told is Lilina's most efficient build in the current meta (please correct me if i'm wrong) and generic rally buffs in each stat for the both of them, Raigh actually has better matchups than her. I didn't think about changing the special at the time, but I can't imagine it making too much of a difference.

To be absolutely sure, I went to another calculator

 

Spoiler


 

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Unless I've screwed up somewhere, these numbers are rather different from what i've heard many times. Sure, Raigh's lead is probably not all that impressive in the end, but from what I hear Raigh is mediocre at best and Lilina is well above the average, which doesn't quite add up.

Is there something I'm missing here? Specials, C skills, Boons and banes, S seals that aren't attack+1? Is Raigh only good using this build and Lilina better with all of the others?

Spoiler

(also i did similar calcs with Henry and damn he is actually awful even with that build, 68 kills using the first calculator. Leo with the same build, even with the cavalry buffs of +6 instead of +4, gets 117 kills on the first calculator, 2 less than Raigh. Sophia got 97 with the same build, also on the first calculator. Raigh finally viable confirmed?)

Spoiler

(I don't remember if I put the attack +1 seal on Henry Leo and Sophia I'm sorry please don't inflict pain unto me)

 

 

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I think people consider the natural sets/passives/skills/weapons given to the Unit, also with Tome-Blades Speed as a base stat for the unit is more of a key then attack, because you can cover the attack part with the Tome-Blades + buffs. Due to that Lilina is worse because she has lower Speed then Raigh and Raigh is worse then Tharja because she has that much higher Speed.
In other words: there is no need to sacrifice a Tharja with Raorblades+ for either one of the above units, unless you are a character loyalist.

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1 hour ago, Hilda said:

I think people consider the natural sets/passives/skills/weapons given to the Unit, also with Tome-Blades Speed as a base stat for the unit is more of a key then attack, because you can cover the attack part with the Tome-Blades + buffs. Due to that Lilina is worse because she has lower Speed then Raigh and Raigh is worse then Tharja because she has that much higher Speed.
In other words: there is no need to sacrifice a Tharja with Raorblades+ for either one of the above units, unless you are a character loyalist.

I will concede to Lilina having a much better vanilla skillset than Raigh, however we're talking optimal play here, and in optimal play I believe resources are not heavily considered, from what I've seen. Which is sad for free to plays like me, but oh well.

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Raigh got hit by base kit bias, and free unit bias. That and as mentioned before, the switch from Tharja to Raigh isn't as drastic as Tharja to Lilina, so people thinks the later should be better. Notable in that LnD is kind of a weird fit on Lilina, so thats something.

 

 This is the same community who thinks Virion is D Tier while Setsuna is S Tier when they are literally the same character on Solo, what did you expect

 

Edited by JSND
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I mean, neither Raigh nor Lilina make for better red tome users than Tharja, so the argument is a bit moot as the only reason you would even have Raudrblade on either of them is if you really like one of the two (in which case you already don't care about optimization since you're ditching Tharja) or you really don't like Tharja. 

I do think it's interesting though, as I'll admit to being guilty of assuming Lilina was better than Raigh without doing calcs myself.

As a side note: as far as I'm aware, Lilina's most popular set isn't actually a blade set but rather a T-Adept Raven set. Sure it looks less impressive because she has fewer ORKOs, but the purpose of the set is less to be a one-woman-army and more to reliably check greens and colorless units to allow your actual primary nuke (such as Blárblade Linde) to have free reign. 

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11 hours ago, JSND said:

 This is the same community who thinks Virion is D Tier while Setsuna is S Tier when they are literally the same character on Solo, what did you expect

Sportaflop

8 hours ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

I mean, neither Raigh nor Lilina make for better red tome users than Tharja, so the argument is a bit moot as the only reason you would even have Raudrblade on either of them is if you really like one of the two (in which case you already don't care about optimization since you're ditching Tharja) or you really don't like Tharja. 

I do think it's interesting though, as I'll admit to being guilty of assuming Lilina was better than Raigh without doing calcs myself.

As a side note: as far as I'm aware, Lilina's most popular set isn't actually a blade set but rather a T-Adept Raven set. Sure it looks less impressive because she has fewer ORKOs, but the purpose of the set is less to be a one-woman-army and more to reliably check greens and colorless units to allow your actual primary nuke (such as Blárblade Linde) to have free reign. 

I agree that the optimisation argument doesn't make too much sense in this context, but I see it thrown around a lot so I just went with it.

With a T-Adept Raven set.... yeah Lilina does much better than Raigh

(gave them both swordbreaker, if like red tome breaker or something is better please tell me)

Spoiler

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Spoiler

I didn't take a screenshot of this, but after these I went and gave them plus 4 buffs in everything because why not. Raigh has 79 kills to Lilina's 91 kills. Just in case you cared

I suppose that for Raigh to do better than Lilina, he needs a build that boosts his speed, his one significant advantage over Lilina?

I went and gave them both Fury for both redblade and redraven just for keks

Spoiler

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I'm starting to think the buffs are what let Raigh be okay? eh, why not run calcs without buffs because that essay shall totally write itself

Spoiler

it's not letting me upload and more pictures so I'll just put the calcs here

Raigh unbuffed fury redblade swordbreaker +1 attack = 51 wins 3 losses 81 draws

Lilina unbuffed fury redblade swordbreaker +1 attack = 58 wins 8 losses 69 draws

Raigh unbuffed life and death redblade swordbreaker +1 attack = 64 wins 3 losses 68 draws

Lilina unbuffed life and death redblade swordbreaker +1 attack = 68 wins 13 losses 54 draws

So, Raigh is reliant on buffs to be better offensively than Lilina. Cool. Personally I'd consider that around the same level as Lilina, maybe a spot or two lower, and not 50.5 tiers lower, but eeeehhhh this community man. From what I've seen serenes seems to be pretty cool, so I'll stick here. Is there any point in having our own tier list here? Is it just considered superflous, are we not supposed to have tier lists here, or are we just lazy?

probably the latter 

8 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Don't forget the waifu bias.

ma waif is loli therforee she id S tears

Spoiler

I personally Lilina is actually pretty smol and a pretty okay unit but shhhhhhhh

 

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Edited by Dearest Dissapointment
misplaced image again again did it work yet
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2 minutes ago, Dearest Dissapointment said:

ma waif is loli therforee she id S tears

Damn right.

Also, usually when comparing Blade setups, I just put +3 Atk and +4 Spd +2 Res, which is what default Eirika with Fort Res seal gives (and Ephraim can be made to give), since that's the most efficient setup you're most likely to ever see.

Edited by SatsumaFSoysoy
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11 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Also, usually when comparing Blade setups, I just put +3 Atk and +4 Spd +2 Res, which is what default Eirika with Fort Res seal gives (and Ephraim can be made to give), since that's the most efficient setup you're most likely to ever see.

Yeah, i debated whether i wanted to do that or not, but then i decided it was too much work because lazy. Once I'm in the procrastinaty mood again and i have less work I'll see if there are major differences or anything. Maybe since Raigh's got the speed n stuff buffs that are more generous to speed will- ah frick frack snick snack i've opened the calculator again what am i doing

I also did +4 defence because rally defence and what the frickles am i doing

Ok so, Raigh gets 115 kills and Lilina gets 114

Yeah, while it's not too much of a gap, i still believe that Raigh is at least very close to Lilina's level

also @MaskedAmpharos that is a very much floof i likey

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