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Policy Issues  

70 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Mila's Turnwheel be allowed?

    • Yes, you can't use it to rig better levelups anyway. Make full use of it.
    • Yes, but edit out the failed turns from the video to keep it watchable.
    • No, it's cheap.
  2. 2. How should I handle coins and forging?

    • Farm all the silver marks you wish and forge towards best equips early; no limits.
    • Don't pick up any silver marks or food from dungeons; limit yourself to money acquired from fixed events only.
    • Other (state your idea)
  3. 3. How should non-mandatory encounters on the map be treated?

    • Face the ones you can't avoid and count the turns toward the total TC.
    • Face the unavoidable ones and don't count the turn count.
    • Fight them repeatedly to gain the necessary advantage in storyline maps.
    • Other (?)
      0


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I haven't had the time to play low-turn counts for nearly half a year, it seems. Now that I've got some, I could get into something and since an Echoes LTC had been brought up to me several times, it's no surprise I started the run. Gaiden/Echoes seems like the least LTC-friendly games out there, as enemies you can't reliably one-turn KO are a nightmare to a run like this, other factors also contributing to the difficulty. 

YouTube Playlist

Above you can find everything I've shared of the playthrough so far. I record every battle and eventually it all ends up in the playlist. The video for each map is accompanied by a lengthy video description, which I never seem to grow tired of writing. 

I've felt the need to start this thread for multiple reasons. The main one is getting some advice on some rather important policies (outlined in the topic poll) and another one is to document and plan out the run. The few times I did a playthrough of the game, I hardly did it with an eventual LTC in mind, so I have quite a lot to brainstorm about moving on from casual to really meticulous and ambitious playstyle. 

 

My current turn counts are as follows:

Spoiler

 

Pr. 2 turns

1-1 2 turns

1-2 3 turns

Th. 1 turn

1-3 5 turns

1-4 4 turns

1-5 3 turns

1-6 5 turns

1-7 6 turns

 

 

Having reached map 1-7 with a pretty mag-rigged Silque @ lv. 5.98, I've been wondering if she can feasibly get to Warp prior to this map. Being able to warp a fighter or two over the wall would presumably speed up the map's completion exponentially. Since we're talking about 6 levels worth of experience in 4 storyline maps, I imagine the answer is affirmative. I've gone back to past maps (from the very beginning) trying to improve upon the chapter 1 clear by feeding Silque all of the bosskills and also trying to get some extra exp from enemy phase (not the hardest thing to arrange when Silque takes the most damage if nobody else in range is getting doubled). I may have to give all three +spd well boosts to Silque, but am not yet sure if this necessary. If she can gain these points on her way to Warp, others could make use of the well boosts. For example, when you play very fast, Merc!Gray only has 7 base spd with the Lightning Sword. This means he needs 3 procs to double Slayde in the last map of the chapter (which is not necessarily a turn-shaving difference considering how many other foes we need to handle and that Gray can't 2HKO anyone but archers anyway). 

Playing fast and making so many sacrifices restrains me even more (skipping random battles and dungeon fights is already rather limiting). For instance, I can hardly imagine which kills I can afford to feed Kliff on the revised run (which could well prove a failure with Silque not reaching Warp but I'm hoping for the best) and if he's ever seeing promotion at all (I guess, he just needs to be fielded for that bonus exp to get there some day). At the same time, I really do require a competent archer, possibly two.

Now some urgent problems outlined in the poll...

Silver Mark farming and Forges

This is a very important issue, because so far it seems to me that silver marks can be farmed for endlessly in dungeons without aggroing enemies, 1-5 per visit or more if you're feeling reckless. I've heard others say the coins eventually end and you can't milk a dungeon for any more, so I tested this today and got to over 100 silver marks before doing map 1-3 in chapter 1, not to mention a ton of food from boxes. 

If marks can really be farmed endlessly, you just need to dedicate yourself to farming as many as you can to have the best versions of your weapons as early as possible. This can get too silly imho. e.g. the chapter 1 Iron Bow can turn into a Killer Bow+3 because you just need to get 590 silvers/2 golds to max the forge. Every other earlygame weapon is maxed similarly, and it's possible considering gold marks can be traded if you bring enough silvers with you.

It's easy to see why I would find such a run discouraging (too much looking around grass in dungeons instead of strategising), but how can I handle the problem? One solution is simply never picking up any food from dungeons and never cutting grass for coins. Some money can still be accumulated by beating enemies in fixed encounters, selling food found in towns and doing quests. I'm not sure if there's any middle ground.

Optional encounters

A notorious obstacle before this run. Once enemies appear on the map, they appear to have a fixed pace at which they progress towards you. Reloading your save will not change their behaviour at all. Naturally, this problems makes me very apprehensive, as I would need to manipulate them in order to (ideally) not see any optional battles on my run.

Unless somebody makes a discovery regarding their behaviour and ways to exploit it, I will probably have to suck it up and just face some of them in-battle. This leads us to another issue to be solved - do these encounters add to the turn count in the run? 

I should also add that the line between storyline and optional encounters is somewhat thin. Many folks who have played the game more than once may have noticed that if some "random" enemies appear in the same place of the map where a storyline battle is about to occur, you will be facing both the fixed enemies as well as the skirmish party on the storyline map. 

It's all very confusing and troublesome at the moment, and yet without resolving the issue there's little clarity concerning LTCing the game past chapter 2 or so. 

Any help and opinions are greatly appreciated, as per usual!

Edited by Espinosa

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With the disclaimer that it's your run, your rules, of course...

I personally would discourage cutting grass for coins. There are a couple reasons for this:

-It's an obnoxious waste of your time which, as you noted, could be better spent strategising.
-It feels to me like it defeats the point of LTC, which is to get through the game as quickly as possible. Retreading dungeons seems little different from grinding up units in the Tower of Valni in FE8, except that due to a technicality it doesn't take "turns".


Any turns spent in optional encounters should count IMO, for this or any other FE.


I'm not sure how to feel about the turnwheel.

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On the topic of turn counts, do both player and enemy phases have to occur to officially pass a turn? Because I can feasibly complete a lot of the dungeon battles before the enemy gets to move if I get a surprise attack. Also, what if the enemy gets a back attack and gets to move first? Does that count as a turn?

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Good work so far, it would be nice to maybe get a feel for your set up before chapters (just going over the units and their inventories should suffice).

Non-mandatory encounters should definitely be included in the turncount (otherwise you could use them to farm exp). Don't particularly like grinding for money either.

2 hours ago, SullyMcGully said:

On the topic of turn counts, do both player and enemy phases have to occur to officially pass a turn? Because I can feasibly complete a lot of the dungeon battles before the enemy gets to move if I get a surprise attack. Also, what if the enemy gets a back attack and gets to move first? Does that count as a turn?

There is a turn counter which will decide what turn it is (you can see it clearly if you use Mila's turnwheel). The turn you finish on will be the "number of turns needed to complete the chapter".

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4 hours ago, Espinosa said:

 

Hey man I like the vids, I've been working on an LTC myself so I think I might be able to help answer some of your questions. Silque can 100% reach Level 7 by Zofia Castle. The best way to do that is to milk enemy phases as much as possible, and force multiple enemies to suicide into her during one turn. It's a bit frustrating dealing with 60%x2 accuracy for the first few maps (Ram Valley is incredibly frustrating), but past that it becomes much more manageable. I've been keeping track of my experience/stats on each map, and could PM you some of those if it would help you out. Also, +2 SPD is generally enough for Silque if you're willing to rig 1 SPD at Ram Valley. +1 is possible, but it's very painful.

Also, FWIW Gray doubling Slayde isn't necessary as you guessed, but it is really nice for reliability. I theorize that if everything (including all your level ups to that point) went your way you could maybe knock out Zofia Castle in 7 turns (and that's a big maybe), and you'd want Gray to double if you're attempting that. 8 or 9 turns is more reasonable though, and Gray doesn't need to double Slayde for that.

For the marks issue, I'd say only fixed items, meaning treasure chests/items you find via examine only. Doing it that way circumvents the issue you're describing where the best move is to simply grind for marks and max all of your gear ASAP. There's really not any middle ground that I know of between the two, unfortunately, without creating a totally arbitrary ruleset. Sidequests should be allowed (in my opinion), but since it's your run it's really your call.

The reinforcements are still a bit of a mystery. From what I can tell, you can manipulate them to move/not move given enough resets, but that's really all I know. I'm not even entirely sure if the spawns themselves are fixed or what. I was able to manipulate an ambush during Chapter 3 (Desaix's Fortress onto Crossroads), but that's about the extent of my testing. I don't think that it's possible to indefinitely stall a group of reinforcements or prevent them from spawning entirely either. Not to add to your concerns, but some reinforcements carry Silver Purses, and I don't know if those are fixed either, given that some areas spawn multiple types of enemies (I.E Act 3 spawning both Paladins and Arcanists). If the order of spawns is fixed, it's probably not an issue, but it's worth mentioning. The encounters themselves should definitely count though.

The Turnwheel is definitely fair game in my opinion. It's not very abusive, and most of all it makes training Silque quickly much less of an exercise in frustration.

Anyways, good luck going forward. I'm surprised to see anyone else crazy enough to try this haha, so I'll definitely have to keep up with this to see how it goes. 

 

 

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A few notes from my own attempts. (Buyer beware)

Mark farming is only really relevant at the end of act 4 Ceilica route (room 1 of tower averages 30 silver) there's enough money in the game for every other relevant forge if you let Ceilica loot southern zophia and farm coral frags.

The main fork gains I know of are in Ceilica's act 4 and can be replicated by looping a merc in act 3.

Exp routing sucks. So far the closest i've found to an elegant solution is skipping the Act 1 merc, villager!faye rigged for speed does the same job with a comicly stronger act 3&4. Double archer villagers is faster overall imo, also good for funneling exp into Silque for warp by map 7 as well. Faye gets rescue early act 3 in both settings.

Edited by joshcja

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  1. Alm
  2. Lukas
  3. Faye
  4. Kliff
  5. Gray
  6. Tobin

End of PP1:

pp1.PNG.d6d47167dc18199bbc059d88a26e24be.PNG

End of PP2, before Tobin attack. Tobin needs to attack Bridgand below Alm.

pp2.png.f7caf6e83e855cfda763bde1369b8c46.png

Best part is, none of the Bridgands can go into the forest tile to attack Tobin.

Bridgand with 4 HP attacks Kliff, I think he wants to force his way into the healing grounds. Other Bridgand can't reach Kliff, so attacks Faye.

If this doesn't help, I will try a video with my telephone camera of the last EP.

Edited by SSJDennis

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On 6/19/2017 at 7:11 AM, Deltre said:

Also, FWIW Gray doubling Slayde isn't necessary as you guessed, but it is really nice for reliability. I theorize that if everything (including all your level ups to that point) went your way you could maybe knock out Zofia Castle in 7 turns (and that's a big maybe), and you'd want Gray to double if you're attempting that. 8 or 9 turns is more reasonable though, and Gray doesn't need to double Slayde for that.

Assuming Silque gets to Warp, 9 turns seems hardly satisfactory. I mean, a turn 1 Warp enables you to bait Slayde and start fighting the northern enemies as early as turn 1. It can't take that long to get to the enemies on the sides, and Silque can continue Warping people forward once per turn.

I've been investigating just how feasible 1-7 Warp is. It does look like it's possible but the amount of work required is beyond anything I've ever done in LTC, Turnwheel or not. You need the right enemy phases for Silque, good levels on Silque, not to mention good levels on everybody else. And of course the enemies should all die fast enough while you do all of the above. It's ridiculous.

Doing my best. Just now made it to 1-4 with a lv. 2.99 Silque (has been better on some attempts but with much poorer levelups) and found that apparently not having 5 spd on Lukas and Kliff still being an archer totally butchers the 4-turn clear (the one I put up on YouTube is incredibly tight, as the soldier that advances from the right is too bulky to be handled by your scrubs and needs a mage... who are mostly all busy doing something else (and Faye is too slow to double him). 

So I'm going back AGAIN to see if I can promote Kliff by 1-4 without hurting Silque's levelling, which is priority number 1 pretty much. All that work to promote Faye early... I don't think she helps with anything in part 1 other than healing Silque in 1-7 for more Warps.

 

On 6/19/2017 at 2:17 PM, joshcja said:

Mark farming is only really relevant at the end of act 4 Ceilica route (room 1 of tower averages 30 silver) there's enough money in the game for every other relevant forge if you let Ceilica loot southern zophia and farm coral frags.

The main fork gains I know of are in Ceilica's act 4 and can be replicated by looping a merc in act 3.

Exp routing sucks. So far the closest i've found to an elegant solution is skipping the Act 1 merc, villager!faye rigged for speed does the same job with a comicly stronger act 3&4. Double archer villagers is faster overall imo, also good for funneling exp into Silque for warp by map 7 as well. Faye gets rescue early act 3 in both settings.

Mark farming is relevant anytime, because as soon as you get to the forge, you can get stuff like maxed Brave Sword and Killer Bow providing you have the patience to farm these in grass one at a time for hours. It makes a world of difference if your units are fighting with iron weaponry or high-end forges early on (and have all the necessary skills ahead of time thanks to it).

I'm not using Villager Forks in this run, and would prefer to keep it out. I don't see how I could loop somebody like Saber and still not lose turns, not in an LTC.

If we skip promoting smb into a Merc, how  do we get a fast Lightning Sword user? I really don't see how keeping Faye as a Villager (admittedly, not any more unusable than Cleric Faye when no healing is needed) can assist with anything later on in the game, or how you imagine feeding her kills for such a long time with no returns in sight. She needs to get Physic and Rescue eventually, and the longer you keep her a Villager the later she'll get these spells. I think it's either that I don't understand what you meant or you misunderstood that this is the LTC thread.

47 minutes ago, SSJDennis said:
  1.  

pp1.PNG.d6d47167dc18199bbc059d88a26e24be.PNG

pp2.png.f7caf6e83e855cfda763bde1369b8c46.png

It's very familiar because this is mostly how I've been doing 1-1 except Gray baits the northern guy. I tried replicate what I see on the pictures (possible with initial Order btw) and Kliff does indeed get attacked by the 4 HP Brigand... however, for that to happen Tobin must stay where he is and not get into the range of the other enemies. 

Did you intend for Tobin to stay where he is, letting Gray and Lukas get the other two kills? For my run, it's imperative that Tobin gets 4 kills and procs speed twice, letting him double soldiers (against whom my party is hilariously impotent when bumrushing maps and fulfilling out-of-the-way objectives) and continue doubling as new speed benchmarks are met. 

If I put Tobin where he can be attacked by all three (killing the Brigand who could attack him from a forest), the 4 HP dood ignores Kliff and goes after Faye like in all my attempts. 

Thanks for helping out!

Edited by Espinosa

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32 minutes ago, Espinosa said:

It's very familiar because this is mostly how I've been doing 1-1 except Gray baits the northern guy. I tried replicate what I see on the pictures (possible with initial Order btw) and Kliff does indeed get attacked by the 4 HP Brigand... however, for that to happen Tobin must stay where he is and not get into the range of the other enemies. 

Did you intend for Tobin to stay where he is, letting Gray and Lukas get the other two kills? For my run, it's imperative that Tobin gets 4 kills and procs speed twice, letting him double soldiers (against whom my party is hilariously impotent when bumrushing maps and fulfilling out-of-the-way objectives) and continue doubling as new speed benchmarks are met. 

Just made the lowish quality video. Will upload it within a few minutes.

 

Edited by SSJDennis

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Huh weird! For me they just won't attack Kliff, and I'm doing everything the same way except... my Order is different? Could it be that choose their target based on their Order in the menu when the damage inflicted is identical and nobody has terrain advantage/disadvantage? That would explain a lot. 

Also that +str/spd level-up... Exactly what I've been resetting for. 

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18 minutes ago, Espinosa said:

Huh weird! For me they just won't attack Kliff, and I'm doing everything the same way except... my Order is different? Could it be that choose their target based on their Order in the menu when the damage inflicted is identical and nobody has terrain advantage/disadvantage? That would explain a lot. 

Also that +str/spd level-up... Exactly what I've been resetting for. 

Lol, I didn't expect to receive something like that XD Normally I just get rubbish. You also wouldn't believe this was my fifth try... Other four I scored unlucky crits, stealing the EXP from Tobin.

Your right! I didn't change my order, and now the Bridgand also attacked Faye... This is weird... You tried the "order" I mentioned before?

Edited by SSJDennis

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20 minutes ago, Espinosa said:

Assuming Silque gets to Warp, 9 turns seems hardly satisfactory. I mean, a turn 1 Warp enables you to bait Slayde and start fighting the northern enemies as early as turn 1. It can't take that long to get to the enemies on the sides, and Silque can continue Warping people forward once per turn.

I've been investigating just how feasible 1-7 Warp is. It does look like it's possible but the amount of work required is beyond anything I've ever done in LTC, Turnwheel or not. You need the right enemy phases for Silque, good levels on Silque, not to mention good levels on everybody else. And of course the enemies should all die fast enough while you do all of the above. It's ridiculous.

Doing my best. Just now made it to 1-4 with a lv. 2.99 Silque (has been better on some attempts but with much poorer levelups) and found that apparently not having 5 spd on Lukas and Kliff still being an archer totally butchers the 4-turn clear (the one I put up on YouTube is incredibly tight, as the soldier that advances from the right is too bulky to be handled by your scrubs and needs a mage... who are mostly all busy doing something else (and Faye is too slow to double him). 

So I'm going back AGAIN to see if I can promote Kliff by 1-4 without hurting Silque's levelling, which is priority number 1 pretty much. All that work to promote Faye early... I don't think she helps with anything in part 1 other than healing Silque in 1-7 for more Warps.

That's fair on the 9 Turn point. I should mention that I was testing some things out, mainly experience distribution, so if you have a different route it's definitely reliable to do it faster. For me personally, 8 is about average and 7 would be "the golden clear", although it's certainly possible that you could improve on that. The biggest trick of course, would be doing all of that without sacrificing EXP on key units. For what it's worth, it is possible to: 

1. Get Warp by 1-7

2. Promote Gray after 1-7

3. Promote Archer!Kliff after 1-7

4. Get Physic after 1-7

as well as start to work on Clair and some other minor things, with only a 2-Turn loss from what you have so far. The two extra turns that I spent were on 1-2 and Thieves Shrine, so that Kliff and Faye would promote for Ram Valley. Take it with a grain of salt, but the extra experience on Faye for an earlier Physic and the potential for early Bow Knight!Kliff should in theory save at least that later on. Physic for certain makes 3-1 better, but if you can work in extra experience for Faye somewhere else, or sacrifice promoting Kliff, then you could get away with less.

Leveling Silque is indeed terrible. You pretty much have to hit Level 3 by the end of Ram Valley so that the BEXP doesn't go to waste. Of course, she needs every bosskill too (I think you can skip the 1-4 Boss, but don't hold me to that). Faye is not nearly as much of an issue, but picking up Physic by 3-1 is handy. Fortunately, that's not nearly as tight, just having her pick up kills when possible and taking out Slayde is enough for that, although this is coming from the perspective of someone who promoted her at the Thieves Shrine.

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, SSJDennis said:

Lol, I didn't expect to receive something like that XD Normally I just get rubbish. You also wouldn't believe this was my fifth try... Other four I scored unlucky crits, stealing the EXP from Tobin.

Your right! I didn't change my order, and now the Bridgand also attacked Faye... This is weird... You tried the "order" I mentioned before?

I just applied the order you listed, and the Brigand still keeps attacking Faye on my file. Can you repeat the same strategy like 5 times and see if it unfolds the same way every time? In the video you uploaded, he goes after Kliff even when Faye is at like 7 HP (not quite moribund but still). I'm doing everything exactly like you now, but to no avail. 

 

If I can get Villager Kliff/Faye into 1-3 with 3 spd (so that they're not deadweight and don't have to hide from combat) and get them to promote there, I think I'll be fine. I may or may not lose turns later on; I think right now I should focus on a more optimal chapter 1 clear and then plan ahead what I'll need in chapter 3 and beyond. 

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17 minutes ago, Espinosa said:

I just applied the order you listed, and the Brigand still keeps attacking Faye on my file. Can you repeat the same strategy like 5 times and see if it unfolds the same way every time? In the video you uploaded, he goes after Kliff even when Faye is at like 7 HP (not quite moribund but still). I'm doing everything exactly like you now, but to no avail. 

 

If I can get Villager Kliff/Faye into 1-3 with 3 spd (so that they're not deadweight and don't have to hide from combat) and get them to promote there, I think I'll be fine. I may or may not lose turns later on; I think right now I should focus on a more optimal chapter 1 clear and then plan ahead what I'll need in chapter 3 and beyond. 

I did this over and over again, my main thought would be, he attacks Kliff, because he received the fewest damage back in return (even though he dies anyway).

The bridgand does ALWAYS go after Faye, if I don't change my order. No clue why.

With the order mentioned, the bridgand just want to attack Kliff. Even now, I missed both Faye hits and still he didn't attack her. Really no clue, sorry. I am playing on an EU cartridge, not that it should matter.

Edited by SSJDennis

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My game is the American version, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, I changed some things about the 2nd turn, keeping your suggested Order intact. This time Lukas attacks his Brigand from the left, Gray waits under the bush (as if blocking the way to Faye to a completely unrelated Brigand - maybe they think they can kill her if nobody is blocking the way, much like healing tile mechanics?), Faye chips on a foe from above and Kliff takes a step back. Three times in a row this resulted in Kliff getting the 4 HP Brigand kill. 

Makes absolutely no sense, but it works! Thanks for taking the time to record the video. 

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Made some progress on a new quest to get Archer!Kliff until 1-3 and Warp!Silque before 1-7. 

1-1. The strategy that gets Tobin 4 kills and Faye & Kliff one each is an enormous pain in the arse. I was resetting so often because of unlikely crits and whiffs that I figured taking the fruits away from the villagers would force me to click less when repeating the strat. Guess what? AGAIN the enemies stopped going for Kliff even though I retained my positioning. I gave them their fruits back. No luck. I took the fruits away once more... and then the strategy would work again, except for times when something went different like an Alm or Faye crit that didn't change who would get the kills. On one single occasion Kliff was ignored with everything seemingly going right. This doesn't make any sense at all. I moved on with a +spd levelup on Tobin. +str/spd has a 7,5% chance of occurring and isn't worth it considering Tobin needs to proc strength twice for it to make a difference on promotion (which gives him +1 str anyway). 

1-2. Actually came up with a 100% reliable strat (barring some extra whiffs) that doesn't, believe it or not, depend on any stats gained before or during the chapter. Changed the order so that nobody actually needs to follow the archer anywhere and Gray gets two kills, levelling him up to lv. 6. My goal was +str/spd on Alm, +spd on Tobin, +spd on Kliff, +str or +def on Gray (ended up getting both) and an adequate Faye levelup. Faye got +def, meaning she'll be hard to use in 1-3, but I took that and left. Probably wouldn't get anything better, and +def on Gray seems invaluable when he has to solo the north of 1-7, though I might have to warp some helper there (I also need to Warp somebody to the archer room I'd wager). 

Thieves' Shrine. No longer as reset-heavy because Alm saw less action in 1-2 and therefore fails to level up when he crits the boss. He's going into 1-3 @ 2.99, just like Lukas. I don't know how much rigging Alm requires in an ambitious LTC of this game. Obviously, he needs to have really high strength to dent the final boss (which Xator Nova has shown can be pierced by other units too in what seems like efficiency context - idk how he trained Delthea up though, but I imagine if there's a will there's a way) as well as high skill and luck for acceptable critical rates. There's also that whole section of the endgame where Alm solos monsters - since we count the turn counts there, he needs to have a lot of everything else. 

Currently, Kliff has the exact stats needed in 1-3 to frontline on turn 2 and knock two Brigands into such HP range where they still attack you without retreating and where Silque can counterkill them. 12,96% chance of her actually connecting all four Nosferatu counters. I'm gonna enjoy this map... 

What depresses me most is that Silque's magic will have to be continuously bolstered for the entire playthrough since we'll keep needing to maximise the range to cut more turns. I think I could deal with it better if this were a GBA game... 

Edited by Espinosa

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So, in short, Kliff and Faye both hit level 2 in 1-2? Is it not better to make Faye reach lv3 then? She can then promote and contribute with (lousy) ranged attacks. A Faye with +1 spd is like a basic Tobin, meaning she does double everything(?) in 1-2.

Kliff on the other hand needs three kills in 1-3 then. I was hoping you would find a way to let both reach lv3 in time.

How many kills do both need now? I see the "wasted" EXP on them in 1-2 as no problem, as everyone still needs to promote anyway.

Best mid-solution would be a lv3 Faye and lv2,70 Kliff or something.

Will you upload the new 1-2 clear? Wondering how you handle it.

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Promoting Faye is probably low priority. As you say, her ranged combat is lousy, and having to deal with her whiffs on top of all other luck-reliant things makes everything way more difficult, as seen in my lucky 1-4 clear.

For Faye to double everything in 1-2, she needs to get a +spd level-up. When Faye promotes, she will care about having gained +str and +def prior to promotion as these are the stats promotion to Cleric doesn't grant her. She will have 4 spd automatically. The party can deal with the 1-2 Brigands fine enough without Faye's assistance, and my strat works just about 100% of the time regardless of what stats Faye gets on level-up, allowing me to allocate the kill experience as I please and reset for optimal level-ups (spd for Tobin, str or def for Gray etc). 

When Faye and Kliff level up in 1-2, they get bonus exp when the map ends, then some more in TS. They should be one kill away from promotion in 1-3. Both promoting is desired because they can now reach enemies behind walls and can start building exp and levelling up. Faye being promoted for 1-3 may seem like a waste of time, in hindsight, but lets her do things like heal severely injured Gray doing all the frontlining for the party. 

WRT uploading videos, the plan is to share my original 1-5 & 1-6 clears which get the job in the least reasonable number of turns. 1-6 can be 3-turned with a bunch of crits on enemy cavs with Alm and/or Swapped Gray, and 1-5 can only be 2-turned if Alm somehow gets Swapped a total of five (!) times during the two player phases, which seems really unlikely in any imaginable context. If the idea to use a Warp strat in 1-7 somehow backfires, I'll just go back to the original playthrough. I've already discarded another recorded run between the one on YouTube and the one I'm talking about now (with a lv. 3 Faye going into Thieves Shrine but with close to zero immediate payoff) because I have no reliable way to 4-turn 1-4 with that exp allocation, so I'll only upload revised clears of chapters I've already shared once I'm convinced they're the ones I'm keeping. 

I've just recorded a pretty wild 1-3 clear. Silque gets nearly 3 levels out of it, emerging @ 3.94, which basically means she needn't be babied so much on EP anymore if I keep this save. She got 2 mag but no spd from it. Alm got +str/spd/def and Kliff got to lv. 3 with another spd proc, which is the only stat he needs to grow before his Archer promotion. Faye, sadly, didn't level up, @ 2.99, but in the 1-4 clear I uploaded to YT she did no attacking through the walls so I should be fine. I dunno if Physic access in 3-1 is as big of a deal as Deltre claims it is. 

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23 hours ago, Espinosa said:

Mark farming is relevant anytime, because as soon as you get to the forge, you can get stuff like maxed Brave Sword and Killer Bow providing you have the patience to farm these in grass one at a time for hours. It makes a world of difference if your units are fighting with iron weaponry or high-end forges early on (and have all the necessary skills ahead of time thanks to it).

If we skip promoting smb into a Merc, how  do we get a fast Lightning Sword user? I really don't see how keeping Faye as a Villager (admittedly, not any more unusable than Cleric Faye when no healing is needed) can assist with anything later on in the game, or how you imagine feeding her kills for such a long time with no returns in sight. She needs to get Physic and Rescue eventually, and the longer you keep her a Villager the later she'll get these spells. I think it's either that I don't understand what you meant or you misunderstood that this is the LTC thread.

Typing long posts on phones sucks.

It was explicitly stated that you rig speed heavily, bechmarks are painful but not impossible since +speed/atk on her first level makes Faye an effective copy of base Gray with faster exp gain and higher aggro priority in act 1 (where LS matters). The route still goes cleric for act 2 where Faye gets rescue within one map of 1st shine cleric (same map if you promote before 1-7) because much more combat and kill exp. The issue here is replicating act 1 Faye without spreading the exp you just "gained". I normaly sac a turn on map 1, 4 or with a 9 bandit pull in cave to minimize rng on hard but that's not a necessary loss (I'm just lazy, pretty sure villager shaves merc by at least one turn in act 4 so eh). The gain here is a stupid strong 1-2 or 1-4 unit (Orko's everything but Duma) with a stronger rescue and Anew for act 5 double warp strats. Also 2 bows.

Merc strats work fine they're standard for a reason (and with that 1-3 I'd stick with it all day every day). Just offering an alternative.

Mark farming is relevant when it takes less time than turnwheel abuse or offers damage you cannot rig for. Ceilica is stuck farming coral frags and looting a bit on castle for her forges (early shadow sword + turnwheel eases reqs here so you can get by with less than you'd think) but past that alm gets enough for KB early gradivus and light forge ridersbane in act 3 which covers incomparables up to act 4. On act 4 Alms side (stat inflation is real here) you can abuse Duma's tower room 1 (roughly 30 silver every 10-15 seconds, it's the fastest money in the game) and 2 of the hamlet merch's for pimped out gear if your comp needs it. For Ceilica's act 4 pre-tower you can burn the forest village merch and Alm's extra act 3 loot.

Worst case is a short farm mid act 3 if you skip early S-sword, get "bad" luck with map spawns or are off by some reasonable amount. Save some RL time and don't stress over silver. It doesn't matter nearly as much as you think and at the point it does hard shave turns the farm is painless if you chose to go for it.

For some reason I saw fork as an opition. Oops.

Looking forward to the rest of the run.

Edited by joshcja

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1 hour ago, Espinosa said:

I've just recorded a pretty wild 1-3 clear. Silque gets nearly 3 levels out of it, emerging @ 3.94, which basically means she needn't be babied so much on EP anymore if I keep this save. She got 2 mag but no spd from it. Alm got +str/spd/def and Kliff got to lv. 3 with another spd proc, which is the only stat he needs to grow before his Archer promotion. Faye, sadly, didn't level up, @ 2.99, but in the 1-4 clear I uploaded to YT she did no attacking through the walls so I should be fine. I dunno if Physic access in 3-1 is as big of a deal as Deltre claims it is. 

Holy crap that Silque is insane, how did you even pull that off? I can't even imagine how many kills she must have gotten haha. That sounds like a keeper to me, although Faye might prove to be a little concerning later down the line, especially if you go for some of those crazier strats.

I should have been more specific about the 3-1 Physic. It would be more accurate to say that she wants it as early as possible in Act 3. I don't think that it saves a turn in 3-1 (in fact, I'm almost certain you'd lose no time without it), but it's more that grabbing it earlier lets you give more combat EXP to other units like Clair much more aggressively, while letting Faye coast by until Rescue very easily. Faye's level is something that is almost entirely irrelevant until you need Physic/Rescue, where it's suddenly very relevant and very noticeable when these skills are absent. It's also nice for the fact that other units arguably want that kill EXP more in Act 3 (Clair who needs +5 SPD by 3-3, Gray, unpromoted Archer!Kliff to an extent, Mathilda eventually) and Faye doesn't have nearly as easy of a time securing KOs in Act 3 as she does in Act 1. Compounding that, Warp shenanigans are now fully underway: maps are completed quickly and Faye is pretty low on the list for priority Warps on the next few maps past 3-1. Without Physic, it also seems like you'd be somewhat forced to keep Faye near Silque in any case where you'd want to Warp more than 2 times. Of course, SoV LTC is a relatively unexplored territory so take that with a grain of salt. That's just how I see things, at any rate. If you could grab it on 3-1 itself, you'd probably be just as well. 

 

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Sure, Faye with a single str/spd level-up is basically base Gray offensively in 1-2 (Gray still has a 1 AS lead, which doesn't matter as he isn't staying a Villager); however, Gray actually gets to 10 spd on promotion and can start doubling the bulk of the game with a -3 AS weapon provided his spd levelups keep coming. I really don't see how a 3 spd/4 spd Faye can wreak as much havoc as you tell she will be. She's supposed to gain a lot of early exp as a Villager (way beyond lv. 3) and then go Cleric while retaining high offensive stats? 

Or is this something Fork-related? The specifics of utilising this item in LTC context elude me, I must admit.

Time matters little when spending a few hours can get you enough money for a few healthy forges without having to sell all your stuff off. The question is whether we do with no limits (with Killer Bow+3/Brave Sword+3/et al. appearing in our possession as soon as we get to the 1st smithy) or if we don't cut grass at all and just rely on the money enemies drop / we get from quests and the money we get from selling wine and possibly more stuff. It looks like the majority in the poll thinks it should be the former (coin farming), but I still need convincing that I want to do this in my run.

How did Silque get so much experience in 1-3? My units had just the right stats to weaken Brigands without them getting below 50% HP and they would suicide on Silque, and her Nosferatu tended to connect more often than not. When she got the bosskill, she got even more mag and as a result she could take down even the meatier 20 HP remaining Brigands. I recall she proc'd a crit in some place too, and of course there was the bonus exp.

The biggest punchline to this whole story is I'll probably have to drop the save and re-do 1-3 again. The reason? Because Faye is still at 2.99, she can't play her part and kill an enemy Soldier (a straggler with 5 HP), even if I give her the Iron Sword. If you watch the 1-4 video I uploaded, you'll see that even though Faye wastes the Turnwheel by missing Nosferatu, she can kill her straggler on the very last turn. She can't do such a thing here. 

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4 hours ago, Espinosa said:

Sure, Faye with a single str/spd level-up is basically base Gray offensively in 1-2 (Gray still has a 1 AS lead, which doesn't matter as he isn't staying a Villager); however, Gray actually gets to 10 spd on promotion and can start doubling the bulk of the game with a -3 AS weapon provided his spd levelups keep coming. I really don't see how a 3 spd/4 spd Faye can wreak as much havoc as you tell she will be. She's supposed to gain a lot of early exp as a Villager (way beyond lv. 3) and then go Cleric while retaining high offensive stats? 

Or is this something Fork-related? The specifics of utilising this item in LTC context elude me, I must admit.

Both the fork and 10 AS on 1-3 are unnecessary (fork would help though), the route is stupid and shoves every single bit of exp not absolutely required elsewhere into silque and faye winding up with the mandatory warp Silque and a crackfast rigged not-merc by LS that hits 1-5/6/7 benchmarks (Slayde double is one off so if you want that and orko's on cavs go cleric after 1-6 and roll the dice). Faye's (near) immediate combat stats and higher exp gain from tier 0 make her side of this easier than pumping Silque, but it's only just on this side of impossible to get both of them on-point in time without making any sacrifices or compromises, so I just drop a turn for sanity's sake.

Past that yeah the idea was to drop the 1/1 range unit for a roided out 1/4 EP mage in act 4 because hard mode Rigel Falls topside. If 3-1 and RFalls were not a thing I'd just roll Tobin into a BK off the same strat for slightly worse results at a much lower cost. He has a better FT archer and Archer river going for him along with a lower startup invest so they may wind up flush after optimization for all I know, Faye is used over bowlcut because she's cuter and Wmagic shenanigans are more interesting. Anyways LS villager skyrockets in act 3 because a level 1, tier 1, with 1-x range, LS merc stats, and no 15 atk lock is chewing up huge chunks of the map very quickly. That's a lot of exp, 17-21 rigged levels worth of exp over the course of hard mode act 3 to be accurate, on top of the Ch1 gains. To put this in context that's a looped DF's stat spread by Desaix.

Time matters little when spending a few hours can get you enough money for a few healthy forges without having to sell all your stuff off. The question is whether we do with no limits (with Killer Bow+3/Brave Sword+3/et al. appearing in our possession as soon as we get to the 1st smithy) or if we don't cut grass at all and just rely on the money enemies drop / we get from quests and the money we get from selling wine and possibly more stuff. It looks like the majority in the poll thinks it should be the former (coin farming), but I still need convincing that I want to do this in my run.

To be clear I'm suggesting a happy medium if you do go for farming. Edit: Gibbirish was here Nofarm would be more entertaining to me from a routing prespective but would be frustrating as hell blind. Save your soul and spotforge benchmarks if farming is your thing,  Mila's 3 is a fast fix when you have a hankering for large amounts of cash pre-tower. Same result less time.

How did Silque get so much experience in 1-3? My units had just the right stats to weaken Brigands without them getting below 50% HP and they would suicide on Silque, and her Nosferatu tended to connect more often than not. When she got the bosskill, she got even more mag and as a result she could take down even the meatier 20 HP remaining Brigands. I recall she proc'd a crit in some place too, and of course there was the bonus exp.

The biggest punchline to this whole story is I'll probably have to drop the save and re-do 1-3 again. The reason? Because Faye is still at 2.99, she can't play her part and kill an enemy Soldier (a straggler with 5 HP), even if I give her the Iron Sword. If you watch the 1-4 video I uploaded, you'll see that even though Faye wastes the Turnwheel by missing Nosferatu, she can kill her straggler on the very last turn. She can't do such a thing here. 

Dropping that 1-3 feels like a crime. Good luck.

Edited to admit the existence of bowlcut villager and hopefully add clarity.

Edited by joshcja

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joshcja, you have a really cryptic way of writing that I don't entirely understand what you mean a lot of the time especially when talking about details is concerned. Thanks anyway!

Just finished 1-4 on a new run, still keeping that ridiculous 1-3 clear with a 3.94 Silque. As I said, the strategy lacks reliability, so in addition to a lot of luck-reliant occurring without making me pull out Mila's Turnwheel until it runs out, I had to rely on a 8% crit when doubling for Gray to kill the last soldier. I could kill the Steel Bow Archer in one single turn, and Kliff managed to get a ton of exp (relatively to how short the map is anyway).

Silque now needs to get 2.01 levels worth of exp in the next two maps, which sounds feasible enough unless the exp gain really slows down when she's the highest-levelled member of the party. She'll be fed the boss and some enemies. 

My level-ups in 1-4... could be better. Silque got mag again, but still not a point of spd or def (the lack of def makes her easy priority for nigh everyone though, which might be good in most circumstances?) and Gray got +str +spd. Tobin disappointed by not getting anything useful to him, which is sad but normal behaviour for him. Faye got nothing good for her last level-up as a Villager. Kliff getting exp was good luck indeed. 

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Something very odd keeps happening in 1-5. When the map ends, everybody gets their bonus exp. Silque gets from 6.01 to like 6.21. However, when I check her stats after the battle, she's still at 6.01. It looks like she's not the only character who this is happening to. 

Any rational reason for this? When I reload and do the chapter again, the same problem repeats. This could well rob me of my lv. 7 Silque before 1-7. 

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4 hours ago, Espinosa said:

Something very odd keeps happening in 1-5. When the map ends, everybody gets their bonus exp. Silque gets from 6.01 to like 6.21. However, when I check her stats after the battle, she's still at 6.01. It looks like she's not the only character who this is happening to. 

Any rational reason for this? When I reload and do the chapter again, the same problem repeats. This could well rob me of my lv. 7 Silque before 1-7. 

I have had the same thing happen with Silque before. I initially thought that it might have something to do with fatigue (I.E a unit who takes too many actions doesn't get the BEXP), because the only times I've been able to trigger this have all been in cases where Silque would see enough combat to put her well past her fatigue limit, and then some. Seeing as to how you didn't get this issue on 1-3 however, I'm not entirely convinced that it's the cause. 

I assume that Silque was fatigued in 1-5, but what about the other characters that this is happening to? Is there any characteristic that they all have in common? If not, then it's possible that this is some kind of glitch or oversight.

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