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tirnanog

Seliph's Usability

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I pulled a Def+/HP- 5* Seliph a while back. He's really not that worth it, at least to me. Many special sword units can reach his Damage output or close to it and easily surpass his speed. Mine is Lvl 40 but I pretty much benched him because I have other good Swordies. I'd keep Eldigan because 3 mov.

If you want to use him, do the defiant def 3 along with Bonfire since Ignis is less likely to happen.

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I'm no expert, but if you really like the unit, you should play it.

I like the idea of defiant defense to make him a crazy wall. If you can avoid magic damage, he should survive most anything that isn't blue, and some things that are. Enough defense and getting doubled isn't that big a deal. Add in Bonfire and after surviving opponent phase you'll have 15+ extra damage when you attack. This build also synergizes well with his brash assault meaning he'll double on attack phase even with his low speed. Since he is being built as an opponent-turn unit he can make good use of threaten attack or defense. The only downside is that for this build, +spd is actually the worst IV. +def or +atk would be optimal. He'll always be situational, but unconventional build and units can also be a lot of fun and very rewarding.

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Brash Assault means he can at least double attack opposing melee units once he's at low health.

Defiant Def 3 gives him a total of 41 Def, meaning axe users need to have at least 53 Atk to scratch him, but if you're using Brash Assault, you might also want to consider Armored Blow (or even Sturdy Blow), which gives 1 less Def and doesn't work on enemy phase, but works at high HP.

No idea how good this build actually is, though.

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Seliph can try and run a Brave Sword+ build but Chrom, Laslow, and even Alfonse can play that role better. And +Spd is not very conducive to most Brave weapon builds.

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With +spd I find that you can pretty easily get Seliph to a point where his speed doesn't ruin him and with buffs gets him out of doubling range for a lot of other units, threaten speed helps too. 

This is what I've done with my +spd/-res Seliph he has served me very well. 

untitled_by_darklordivy-dba2r0g.png

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I'm personally of the opinion that Seliph works best by ditching Brash Assault for Quick Riposte and making him an enemy-phase tank. 

The build would more or less be what @DarkLordIvy runs up top with the B slot being the primary difference. 

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12 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

I'm personally of the opinion that Seliph works best by ditching Brash Assault for Quick Riposte and making him an enemy-phase tank. 

The build would more or less be what @DarkLordIvy runs up top with the B slot being the primary difference. 

Ooo I think I want to try out that build! 

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3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Brash Assault means he can at least double attack opposing melee units once he's at low health.

And any ranged unit with Close Counter or a melee unit with Distant Counter if you're running Brash Assault on a ranged unit for some reason. Brash Assault states a unit can make a follow-up attack when at whatever HP threshold depending on what level of BA you have and attacking a foe that can counter. Close Counter lets ranged units counter attack against melee units. For example: Takumi. Well, that's what KageroChart says is happening and Brash Assault's description is implying.

I don't have Seliph, but personally I'd keep Brash Assault since it's less expensive and less effort than going the route of Quick Ripose Seliph. The issue I see with running Quick Riposte is that most units would want a Killer weapon so they can activate Bonfire or Iceberg depending on the unit to activate it every round of combat. Well, if they can keep their HP high to do that. With axe and sword units, the presence of units with a legendary Killer weapon kind of makes it rough on them except for Sheena since all-armor teams running all Ward Armors can boost their damage output by a lot from Bonfire activating or even Iceberg with a +Res Sheena since she'd have 36 defense and resistance. Anyway, it still works, but Eldigan, Michalis, and even Minerva get more results because of their +5 attack lead from Mystletainn and Hauteclere. Swords unit have Wo Dao+ and Moonbow as an option, but Wo Dao is still a rare weapon to get.

Checking KageroChart,

Spoiler

On enemy phase, a +Spd Seliph with Fury 3 and Quick Riposte 3 gets 47 wins, 10 losses, and 83 draws. If you gave him Bonfire, he would be able to get 49 wins, 10 losses, and 81 draws since it apparently was able to activate against 2 more units. If you gave him a Quickened Pulse seal, he'd be up to 61 wins, 10 losses, and 69 draws. With Killing Edge, the loss in 5 attack drops him to 58 wins, 10 losses, and 72 draws compared to keeping Tyrfing, but giving him a Quickened Pulse seal which on works for the start of turn 1 compared to Killing Edge's static -1 to special cooldown. Anyway, if you kept Tyrfing and gave him Moonbow which would probably activate every round, he'd sit at 58 wins, 10 losses, and 72 draws, the same numerical results with Killing Edge and Moonbow.

If you were able to get Seliph a Wo Dao+ and Moonbow, he'd get 60 wins, 10 losses, and 70 draws. Wo Dao+, Bonfire, and a Quickened Pulse seal would put him at 62 wins, 10 losses, and 68 draws. Considering he has a serviceable legendary weapon that like all legendary weapons, have higher MT than regular weapons, I'd rather give Wo Dao+ to someone else who doesn't like Caeda, Fir, Lon'qu, Selena, Stahl, etc. Fir should have had a Wo Dao in the first place, but whatever.

On player phase, +Spd Seliph at 23 HP, half HP, with Defiant Def 3 and Brash Assault gets 45 wins, 20 losses, and 75 draws. With Moonbow, he'd be to 60 wins, 17 losses, and 63 draws, but considering he'd at half HP, let's assume that Bonfire is partially charged at 2 cooldown. If so, he'd be up to 68 wins, 14 losses, and 58 draws. The closer he is to full charge, the higher his wins goes up. And of course with both options, you could give him Ignis instead.

The problem with both builds is sustainability. Can you keep Seliph in the range for Brash Assault or Quick Riposte to work? Can you get Seliph in Brash Assault's range safely? Brash Assault can be more risky since you need to be at <= 50% HP which for Seliph is doable when with Tyrfing's effect, Defiant Def 3, and especially with defensive tiles around. Also, doable for Alfonse and Lyn too. Alfonse comes with Sol so he can recover HP if he can activate it, especially the first hit to get the most HP back not to mention Folkvanger's +5 to attack at <= 50% HP and his default Death Blow 3 giving him a massive attack meaning with Brash Assault, he can double while doing a lot of damage and Lyn's Sol Katti's innate Desperation 2 means if she attacks and she's faster, she can double immediately, but Brash Assault removes the speed requirement for so long as she's fighting someone who can counter back. Quick Riposte is safer since you just need to be at high HP, but it has much stricter HP range, so you might not get much use out of it unless you could mitigate the damage somehow like if you had a gem weapon or T-Adept, but means you have to give up something else.

Another thing is circumstances like in arena, things might go quickly enough that Brash Assault never gets used or in something like the trials, Seliph might only be able to get 1 round's use of Quick Riposte. If you gave Noontime or Sol to Seliph, he'd probably be able to sustain himself, especially if there's also a healer on board, but that sacrifices damage which might work or might not for you. Healers are more useful in trials, but some people prefer to just blaze through everything or maybe you just end up meeting enemies where it just doesn't work.

 

Edited by Kaden

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On 6/21/2017 at 7:46 PM, MaskedAmpharos said:

I'm personally of the opinion that Seliph works best by ditching Brash Assault for Quick Riposte and making him an enemy-phase tank. 

The build would more or less be what @DarkLordIvy runs up top with the B slot being the primary difference. 

I've found Brash Assualt really hard to work with in general, since unlike Desperation, you're always leaving yourself open to counterattacks, and already being at low health, the amount of units you can safely come out alive against isn't that great.  It would be nice if it worked against units that couldn't counter-attack, like mages or archers.

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19 hours ago, Rezzy said:

I've found Brash Assualt really hard to work with in general, since unlike Desperation, you're always leaving yourself open to counterattacks, and already being at low health, the amount of units you can safely come out alive against isn't that great.  It would be nice if it worked against units that couldn't counter-attack, like mages or archers.

I think what Brash assault needs is the added effect "If Unit SPD < Enemy Spd" then only one counter attack occurs while your unit still doubles due to brash assault. This will reduce the chance a bit by being KOd below 50% health when using Brash assault and would bring the Passiv up on par potency wise with desperation Vantage and Quick Riposte.
This way Slow but very Bulky units like Eliph, Chrom, Armor-Units etc can make better use of Brash Assault because below 50% they only will eat 1 attack as a counter.

Edited by Hilda

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1 minute ago, Hilda said:

I think what Brash assault needs is the added of fact of "If Unit SPD < Enemy Spd" then only one counter attack occurs while your unit still doubles due to brash assault. This will reduce the chance a bit by being KOd below 50% health when using Brash assault and would bring the Passiv up on par potency wise with desperation Vantage and Quick Riposte.
This way Slow but very Bulky units like Eliph, Chrom etc can make better use of Brash Assault because below 50% they only will eat 1 attack as a counter.

The point of Brash Assault, though, is to kill the opponent with your two hits because Brash Assault frees up your weapon slot to use the most powerful weapon you can get your hands on instead of a weak Brave weapon. Whether or not the opponent double attacks is irrelevant because they're supposed to be dead.

The main problem with Brash Assault is the fact that the opponent has that opportunity to hit you in between your two attacks, and with your unit already below half HP, the chance that you'll be able to take the counterattack without dying outright is shaky. This is mostly the reason why Lyn is the only character that actually gets recommended to use Brash Assault instead of the more reliable Weaponbreakers: Lyn has Desperation on her weapon, allowing her to not have to take the counterattack at all.

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9 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

The point of Brash Assault, though, is to kill the opponent with your two hits because Brash Assault frees up your weapon slot to use the most powerful weapon you can get your hands on instead of a weak Brave weapon. Whether or not the opponent double attacks is irrelevant because they're supposed to be dead.

The main problem with Brash Assault is the fact that the opponent has that opportunity to hit you in between your two attacks, and with your unit already below half HP, the chance that you'll be able to take the counterattack without dying outright is shaky. This is mostly the reason why Lyn is the only character that actually gets recommended to use Brash Assault instead of the more reliable Weaponbreakers: Lyn has Desperation on her weapon, allowing her to not have to take the counterattack at all.

I get that point, hence why i said to restrict the counter-attack to 1 so it has a bit more use then before on very tanky units with low SPD. Obviously the best solution would be to make it work like Lyn below 50% but that would make Lyns weapon/built obsolete.

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8 hours ago, Hilda said:

I get that point, hence why i said to restrict the counter-attack to 1 so it has a bit more use then before on very tanky units with low SPD.

But whether or not your opponent has only one counterattack doesn't really do anything. The opponent never gets that second counterattack because either you're dead or they're dead. Due to how stat spreads are laid out in this game (Atk between 50 and 60, Def between 30 and 40 for tanks, HP between 40 and 50), it's extremely difficult even for tanky characters to take less than 30% damage from a single hit (because being brought down to exactly 50% HP to trigger Brash Assault is not the norm) meaning that first counterattack is what's making or breaking that round of combat.

What would make Brash Assault work is an effect like Pavise where the first counterattack has its damage reduced by 50%. The problem with just using Pavise straight up (like Hinata's vanilla build) is that it isn't reliable. Pavise charges on your first round of combat, then activates on player phase when you initiate combat with Brash Assault. That's all well and good, but now you're screwed for the next round of combat because you have 2 actions before Pavise activates again and only 1 action before the opponent's next counterattack. Escutcheon would be charged in time, but its damage mitigation is too low for this job (and it would have activated on the first round of combat if the opponent can double attack, meaning you might not have it ready on the round of combat that you initiate).

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