Hawkeye is WAAAAY better than you thought

[Junkhead]

okay not way better I'm just ripping off SethTheProgrammer (look him up). I think what I want to debunk is more along the lines of his actual use and what he can do, rather than how he stacks on a tier list (which I've yet to fully go through, but safe to say he's consensed at Mid to even the Lower-Mid'ish regions of it). Gamepress lowered his score even further down the line at 4/10 (and 3/10 on support, for whatever it's worth).

The whole metagame pretty much revolves around being able to counter the person in front of you. With that said, there's a given value for characters that can counter characters that happen to lead the meta, like the likes of Hector, Reinhardt, Takumi, etc. Apparently there's a growing number in Blues. Of which, for one, Reinhardt is included (whom apparently isn't exactly a push-over to deal with). It's pretty much a given that Hawkeye will always be trashed by Reds (let alone swordies). As such, he ought to place his focus on the rest.

 

For the sake of consistency, I like to assume neutral IVs:

- Hawkeye with Axebreaker, Brave+, Deathblow, Moonbow and a +1 Atk (can be a Seal or whatever) is able to 1RKO Hector.

- Hawkeye with a Brave+ easily 1RKO's Takumi, and even does so without Deathblow and a Moonbow.

- Reinhardt with +Atk and Deathblow takes 5 shots to take down Hawkeye and doesn't even quadruple with +Spd (while using Dire Thunder, obviously). Hawkeye easily 1RKO's him and/or cleanly oneshots with Silver+.

- Similiarly, Linde with L&D 3, Hone Atk buff (+4) & +4 at 61 Atk hits him for 7x7 if he's packing Triangle Adept 3.

 

Ironically, for such a bulky character, his worst trait is that he gets doubled by virtually everyone. As such, you're going to want at least one of the Breakers. I can see how he can do really well with Triangle Adept to even further mitigate Blue Tomes (Blue Tomes in particular). G.Tomebreaker (as recommended in one of the Gamepress setups) actually works really well against, say, Nino and Cecilia (whom are fairly common, right?).

In short, I just want to debunk that he definitely fulfills a really handy role at controlling an important part of the triangle, and maybe more in the likes of colorless (whom he generally also 1RKO's with my setup). Not useless, by any means. Can you even say that about anyone in particular? He's definitely got the powerhouse, if you know where to look.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Soul~!

[XRay]

But everyone can be usable with that build.

For player phase in general, there is only one (sometimes a few) way(s) to build a character [+Atk/Spd, -HP/Spd/Def/Res, Brave/Blade/Raven/P. Dag./Flametongue/Legendary, MB/Luna/BF/IB, L&D/DB, and Breaker/Desp.].

For enemy phase, you can choose between Fury and Counter builds [+Atk, -HP/Spd/Def/Res, Killer/Blade/Raven/PD/FT/Lightning B./Wo Dao/Legendary, MB/Luna/BF/IB, QR].

Realistically, players who can afford those builds usually do not use neutral natures. Neutral characters sometimes have a very different optimal build compared with optimized characters, such as exchanging their legendary weapon for Braves and/or L&D for DB. That 3-4 difference in Atk/Spd between neutral and optimized characters can turn a decent unit into a stellar unit and vice versa.

Edited June 25, 2017 by XRay

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Hawkeye actually have a very good stats + color combination to run a good DC build. Its very expensive, but 45/28/30 is a very nice spread

 

For the proposed Brave build, Hawkeye suffers from "Aflonse syndrome" where he seems to have godlike skillset that make it sounds good, but its actually outclassed. Admitably Hawkeye's high Resistance kinda allows him to survive a round from some magics, but consider this:

-ATK Boon Hawkeye have 42 ATK after Deathblow

-Neutral Cherche with her basic skillset and +1 ATK Seal reach that level

If you do have Brave Axe+ Fodder, and want to build a slow Brave Axe nuke, Cherche is a better choice 24/7. Even outside her, Bartre also built in +3 ATK(Fury) and 36 Base ATK

This is even worse than Alfonse who is really only outclassed(as a Heavy Brave) because +ATK Chrom is 2 gud.

Edited June 25, 2017 by JSND

[MaskedAmpharos]

The problem with Hawkeye is that there is literally no set he does that is not done better by another unit. 

His Brave Axe set is completely obsolete compared to Cherche running the same set.

A T-Adept magekiller set is inferior to Titania, Camilla, and Anna running a similar set because they have similar res but far more speed. 

Hawkeye is considered bad not because he isn't capable of producing results (I still hold fast to the belief that literally any character in this game can be made usable) but because there is nothing he can do that someone else can't do better. He will always be obsolete. 

[Johann]

Was thinking about how I'd use Hawkeye. For a lighter investment, I'd just go with an Emerald Axe and Quick Riposte or Renewal, which would be enough to have him wall off any blue, including an all-out offensive build Reinhardt, without taking much damage, if any. He might not have the speed that those other greens have, but he's so much hardier than they are.

[Junkhead]

I don't disagree that other people can basically just do this better. But look at other axe users, a ton of them have pretty much non-existent Res. They can't force an approach the way he does, let alone against Blues (a MU that's becoming popular). Being better than a 1RKO is still a 1RKO. I even mentioned, I'm not exactly arguing against the way he stacks against others on a tier list, but the way people make it seem he may as well have little to no value. Being better to tank magic than most other axe users isn't sosmething to cast aside that easily.

[DehNutCase]

6 hours ago, Soul~! said:

I don't disagree that other people can basically just do this better. But look at other axe users, a ton of them have pretty much non-existent Res. They can't force an approach the way he does, let alone against Blues (a MU that's becoming popular). Being better than a 1RKO is still a 1RKO. I even mentioned, I'm not exactly arguing against the way he stacks against others on a tier list, but the way people make it seem he may as well have little to no value. Being better to tank magic than most other axe users isn't sosmething to cast aside that easily.

Magic tank axes run into the Askr trio problem, the same problem that makes certain my 3 Chroms will never see the light of day. (Anna has 41/28 versus Hawkeyes 45/30, and don't forget Anna never gets doubled.)

If an Askr starter does a set you can do, it'll be them doing the set and not you, because they're the bonus units and not you.

[Zeo]

3 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

Magic tank axes run into the Askr trio problem, the same problem that makes certain my 3 Chroms will never see the light of day. (Anna has 41/28 versus Hawkeyes 45/30, and don't forget Anna never gets doubled.)

If an Askr starter does a set you can do, it'll be them doing the set and not you, because they're the bonus units and not you.

You just invalidated Brave Sword Chrom just now, didn't you?

[Vaximillian]

32 minutes ago, Zeo said:

You just invalidated Brave Sword Chrom just now, didn't you?

Chrom invalidated Brave Sword Chrom.

[dragonlordsd]

On 6/24/2017 at 9:45 PM, Soul~! said:

okay not way better I'm just ripping off SethTheProgrammer (look him up). I think what I want to debunk is more along the lines of his actual use and what he can do, rather than how he stacks on a tier list (which I've yet to fully go through, but safe to say he's consensed at Mid to even the Lower-Mid'ish regions of it). Gamepress lowered his score even further down the line at 4/10 (and 3/10 on support, for whatever it's worth).

The whole metagame pretty much revolves around being able to counter the person in front of you. With that said, there's a given value for characters that can counter characters that happen to lead the meta, like the likes of Hector, Reinhardt, Takumi, etc. Apparently there's a growing number in Blues. Of which, for one, Reinhardt is included (whom apparently isn't exactly a push-over to deal with). It's pretty much a given that Hawkeye will always be trashed by Reds (let alone swordies). As such, he ought to place his focus on the rest.

 

For the sake of consistency, I like to assume neutral IVs:

- Hawkeye with Axebreaker, Brave+, Deathblow, Moonbow and a +1 Atk (can be a Seal or whatever) is able to 1RKO Hector.

- Hawkeye with a Brave+ easily 1RKO's Takumi, and even does so without Deathblow and a Moonbow.

- Reinhardt with +Atk and Deathblow takes 5 shots to take down Hawkeye and doesn't even quadruple with +Spd (while using Dire Thunder, obviously). Hawkeye easily 1RKO's him and/or cleanly oneshots with Silver+.

- Similiarly, Linde with L&D 3, Hone Atk buff (+4) & +4 at 61 Atk hits him for 7x7 if he's packing Triangle Adept 3.

 

Ironically, for such a bulky character, his worst trait is that he gets doubled by virtually everyone. As such, you're going to want at least one of the Breakers. I can see how he can do really well with Triangle Adept to even further mitigate Blue Tomes (Blue Tomes in particular). G.Tomebreaker (as recommended in one of the Gamepress setups) actually works really well against, say, Nino and Cecilia (whom are fairly common, right?).

In short, I just want to debunk that he definitely fulfills a really handy role at controlling an important part of the triangle, and maybe more in the likes of colorless (whom he generally also 1RKO's with my setup). Not useless, by any means. Can you even say that about anyone in particular? He's definitely got the powerhouse, if you know where to look.

The biggest problem with Hawkeye isn't how good he can be, but who he competes with for slots. Unfortunately for him, his biggest competition is Hector.

Think about it like this. You're setting up a four unit team. Who are you gonna pick? Hawkeye or Hector? Hector has superior stats, a divine weapon, and comes with a more complete kit, requiring less setup. At the same time, he can run an identical set up to the one you posted, if you want him to.

I mean, honestly, I can't think of a situation where I would pick Hawkeye over Hector. And that's really his problem. He doesn't have the stats to compete for that slot, and there really isn't another slot he can fill.

Axe users can basically be divided up into either Tanks or Offense, and with Legion having just released for free and requiring almost no set up, he'll never really be able to compete for offense either.

[Junkhead]

If we look at it that way, you may as well obselette every axe character ever, pretty much. Who's competing with Hector, to begin with? That's neither a fair or realistic asumption. In a perfect, ideal world in which we do have all characters, yeah.

[Arcanite]

18 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

Who's competing with Hector, to begin with?

Legion has a good spread as well as innate fury

Anna is a bonus unit and can warp around like a psycho with her Noatun.

To me those are the biggest "competitors" but when it comes down to the nitty gritty, Hector is PRETTY OP. He still gets lacerated by Red tomes but his SUPER high HP makes it a little troublesome to OHKO sometimes

[Tenzen12]

I am using Sol on Hector and while I am not exactly happy about it I still use him bait red tome users once in while and he usually murder them in same manner as everyone else.

Armads for life!

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

1 hour ago, Soul~! said:

If we look at it that way, you may as well obselette every axe character ever, pretty much. Who's competing with Hector, to begin with? That's neither a fair or realistic asumption. In a perfect, ideal world in which we do have all characters, yeah.

If i have all character no way in hell i would touch Hector if its purely from usability lol

 

Fuck 1 mov

Edited June 26, 2017 by JSND

[Junkhead]

You mean the tanky-ass dude who hits like a truck and can literally stack a B-skill on top of weapon that gives him innate Quick Riposte?

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

1 minute ago, Soul~! said:

You mean the tanky-ass dude who hits like a truck and can literally stack a B-skill on top of weapon that gives him innate Quick Riposte?

 

I mean he's pretty good(second highest from Top of the tier kind of good), but theres a lot of things that make him not the ultimate S+ Tier unit that everyone seems to think he is, like his low Res in a mage heavy meta, or 1 mov. His PP is also pretty trash

If i have every unit he's be like #5-8 in consideration

[Ice Dragon]

7 hours ago, Zeo said:

You just invalidated Brave Sword Chrom just now, didn't you?

Alfonse has 35 Atk and no access to merges. +Atk Chrom has 40 Atk and access to merges (and his first merge is always +1 Atk). And that's literally the only stat that matters for their Brave Sword builds.

[shadowofchaos]

2 hours ago, Soul~! said:

You mean the tanky-ass dude who hits like a truck and can literally stack a B-skill on top of weapon that gives him innate Quick Riposte?

There are ways around him. Particularly his abysmal res.

Including bruteforcing through the OP tempest trials one with Julia and Rein at Full HP.

You know... Rein. Who has a weapon triangle disadvantage.

Edit:

How would you compare Tempest Trials bonuses for Hector on Veronica's 7 map Lunatic vs merges, @Ice Dragon ?

Edited June 26, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Ice Dragon]

34 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

How would you compare Tempest Trials bonuses for Hector on Veronica's 7 map Lunatic vs merges, @Ice Dragon ?

There was a Hector among those bloodstains?

 

I honestly have no idea how Hector compared because I'd never used Lucina in any real capacity before the Tempest Trials, and I haven't used a physical red on my arena team since the one season with Sophia as a bonus unit (where she replaced Ryoma).

[shadowofchaos]

13 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

There was a Hector among those bloodstains?

 

I honestly have no idea how Hector compared because I'd never used Lucina in any real capacity before the Tempest Trials, and I haven't used a physical red on my arena team since the one season with Sophia as a bonus unit (where she replaced Ryoma).

I was just merely curious if you had any experience with it.

Because while I don't have the calculations, I'm making an educated guess that if a Neutral Atk Julia can desperation Hector into oblivion with a charged special from the Tempest trials, I'd assume it would also work for the Arena if he isn't on a def tile.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

I guess I can chime in on the Hectors here, since I usually keep an eye on his stats given that I often attack into him with Nino at full HP to activate Desperation, though do note that Tempest is all going to be by memory. He was often looking at somewhere between 55 and 59 Atk, which fits in with upper/max merges, the latter requiring +Atk to reach. His HP was also usually really high (like, 70-ish high), well beyond merges, such that, unlike Arena Hectors, I couldn't gib him with Moonbow +Atk Eirika if Nino needed to take something else out. All in all, I'd say anything that completely wrecks him in Arena wouldn't really care in Tempest (Nino was still often doing upwards of 90 damage between both hits), though borderline cases like my Eirika would (with Hone Atk, she overkills a typical Arena Hector by something like 9 with Moonbow, which in no way can power through that extra HP).

EDIT:

5 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

I was just merely curious if you had any experience with it.

Because while I don't have the calculations, I'm making an educated guess that if a Neutral Atk Julia can desperation Hector into oblivion with a charged special from the Tempest trials, I'd assume it would also work for the Arena if he isn't on a def tile.

Neutral Atk Julia and no Special versus neutral HP, +Res Hector will one-round Hector with 2 HP overkill, meaning that she can gib a merge up to +1 with no merges of her own. Note that she's also just 2 HP shy of killing a +0 neutral Res, neutral HP Hector if he's standing on a defense tile. Basically, if she has a Special, he's just dead, period, since no amount of merges—even when coupled with a defense tile—is going to save him from that +50% Atk when he was already borderline getting destroyed.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi

[shadowofchaos]

11 minutes ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:

EDIT:
 

Neutral Atk Julia and no Special versus neutral HP, +Res Hector will one-round Hector with 2 HP overkill, meaning that she can gib a merge up to +1 with no merges of her own. Note that she's also just 2 HP shy of killing a +0 neutral Res, neutral HP Hector if he's standing on a defense tile. Basically, if she has a Special, he's just dead, period, since no amount of merges—even when coupled with a defense tile—is going to save him from that +50% Atk when he was already borderline getting destroyed.

Thank you.

Because of Tempest Trials Hector's ridiculous HP she'd always die if I didn't have the special charged up.

Good to know that she can kill him on Arena if the need arises.

[Refa]

3 hours ago, JSND said:

If i have every unit he's be like #5-8 in consideration

Just curious, who'd be ahead?  How many of them are mages?  Not related but when are we going to get a green dancer?

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

1 minute ago, Refa said:

Just curious, who'd be ahead?  How many of them are mages?  Not related but when are we going to get a green dancer?

Almost all of them i guess lol

 

Julia, Cecilia, Nino, Spring Camilla, Titania

 

It is at this point where i realized thats the full list and even then Titania is a stretch, god damnit why is there so few greens so uhhhhh

Cherche and Frederick

 

 

 

[Hilda]

eh I have Hector and never use him. he is trash in my eyes because of his poor movement and his low res. He gets trashed by my Cecilia and Xander in every arena encounter (havent lost to any Hector so far). By the Time Hector reaches the battle squad, his Teammates are allready on the floor, leaving him last lol.
I have Hawkeye +4, and he would be awesome if he had Armads... but sadly he doesnt ._.. Hopeing for the day when they give us Inheritable Legendary Weapons via Tempest Trial or so.