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henrymidfields

What are your reasons for (not) favouring 2RN for hit percentage?

Do you prefer 1RN or 2RN for hit rates?  

33 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you prefer 1RN or 2RN for hit rates?

    • 1RN
      15
    • 2RN
      10
    • Fates-style 1.5RN
      4
    • Do not care
      4


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At least over at GameFAQs, I've noticed some people do not like the 2RN that has been the staple of the series since FE6, or most of the game that saw international releases. And to be honest, I am at a loss at why some people do not like them. I'd like to ask the question to everyone here (who I think would have a better understanding) for why do you (not) favour 2RN.

I generally favour the 2RN as they would make units that focuses of dodging more viable. Unlike defense-oriented units where their defense stats are generally what they are, dodging still requires some risk no matter what, so some form of modification that makes the percentage gamble less of a luck-based mission is a good idea.

FE6 was the most fitting example, which featured the likes of Rutger, Sue, and Clarine who would absolutely dodge everything like no one else's business. On the other hand, this also had the defense-oriented units at their worst, where their defense stats were not as useful due to how doubling enemy units were everywhere. Of course, this would be greatly detrimental for balance, but I think this can all be fixed with good skills, higher WTA bonuses (like the one in Fates), and effective weapons seen in later entries. I think, in the case for Binding Blade Echoes, we can rebalance Armour Knights can do with better defense, and skills like Wary Fighter. Lances and Axes can have better hit rates in general, and Axes in particular have hit modification bonuses as WTA. For the overpowered Swordmasters, bring in Swordslayer-carrying units in, and bring more of them (and other effective weapon-carrying units) in Hard/Lunatic.

I can understand the 1.5RN used in Fates, as 2RN in Birthright can make some of the allied Hoshidan units (especially Ryoma) too game-breaking. (I'm under the impression that the Hoshidan units focus more on Speed/Skill and the like. Correct me if I am wrong.) But in other settings, I just find it a case of unnecessary meddling when a) we survived over a decade of 2RNGs without the games being unplayable; and b) we could fix through other means.

Anyway, what is everyone's opinion?

Edited by henrymidfields

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I much prefer 1RN because what you see is what you get. Having the hit rate not be the rate that's displayed is kind of ridiculous to me. I understand why they did it even if I don't prefer it but why hide it on the display? It's also kind of dumb that a hit rate like a 95 will actually hit nearly all the time rather than, you know, 95% of the time.

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Gonna agree with Darros here, as much as I like dodgetanks, I feel like 30% should be 30%, not something else. I understand it mitigates RNG screw, which is good, but it's just weird that chances are not actually what they're displayed as, as it complicates doing calculations.

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Just now, Glaceon Sage said:

I generally prefer 2 RN simply because I like being able to better predict the outcome of fights.

How does numbers not being shown correctly ease your predictions?

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1 minute ago, athena_57 said:

How does numbers not being shown correctly ease your predictions?

Because the liklier outcome is always made more likely by the 2RN system.  Plus I know where to find the site's hit converter, so I know the actual hit rates as well.

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I think it's more in Bernoulli space - lower numbers hit less and higher numbers hit more. So you can kind of predict "hit/not hit" better based off years of experience by getting used to the skewed numbers. I get the same way with 2RN too. I know that 95 will hit practically all the time and that a 5 will practically never hit (and that its different with crit). I still don't prefer it though.

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2 minutes ago, Glaceon Sage said:

Because the liklier outcome is always made more likely by the 2RN system.  Plus I know where to find the site's hit converter, so I know the actual hit rates as well.

Fair enough I guess

My main problem is that because it's 2RN in some games, 1RN in others, it tends to screw up my intuition. I guess I wouldn't mind it as much if it had been there from the start, but it's quite annoying if you play say FE4 and FE8 in succession and have to "calibrate" every time you start a new playthrough.

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Can someone please explain this 1.5RN thing to me? I was away from the forums for the majority of Fates lifetime and I have purposefully avoided the Fates sub-forum because I have still yet to finish my playthrough of Conquest. And then Revelation too I guess...

I checked the Main site but the Calculations page isn't done yet.

 

I guess I would prefer a 1RN system, but being able to take advantage of the 2RN system is always nice.

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5 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

Can someone please explain this 1.5RN thing to me? I was away from the forums for the majority of Fates lifetime and I have purposefully avoided the Fates sub-forum because I have still yet to finish my playthrough of Conquest. And then Revelation too I guess...

I checked the Main site but the Calculations page isn't done yet.

 

I guess I would prefer a 1RN system, but being able to take advantage of the 2RN system is always nice.

https://fire-emblem-strategy.tumblr.com/post/143452625727/how-fates-handles-hit-rates

Here you go, I don't recall anything ever denying this.

Edited by Glaceon Sage

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10 minutes ago, Glaceon Sage said:

Here you go.

Thank you.

Well that is interesting. The true hits are basically the same as the 2RN system except for when it is below 50. I don't really see the point of why they would make a whole new hitrate system. Especially when they could have just used 1RN for hitrates below 50 and 2RNs for hirates above 50, if they really wanted to change something.

2RNs are so much more frustrating when you miss displayed hits of like 98% and you scream at your game because you know that it was actually 99.9. Like "FUCK YOU GAME! YOU'RE CHEATING!!"

Whereas with 1RN you can actually expect to miss 98% once in a while.

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With 1RN and competent enemy stats dodgetanking isn't as easy, although SoV makes it possible via crazy powerful terrain vs. physical units. My Kliff had a like a 4% chance of being hit by Berkut 2 via Forest + Coral Cover.

On the other hand, once you drop enemy hit to ~30 or below in 2RN, dodging becomes way too easy.

Mayhap IS could make it so SMs and like dodgy classes get 2RN when enemy hit rates are below 50% Hit, while everyone else operates under 1 RN at all times.

As for hitting, I hate missing as anyone else with high hit rates, but at the same time I don't think every hit rate above like 75% should be a virtually guaranteed hit as in 2RN. 1RN does lend a little more value to low Might high Hit weapons and the Skill stat.

And needless it be said, 1RN doesn't lie to players who don't know the truth- aka anyone not on SF or other gaming sites.

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I don't really care. On one hand, I do like the "what you see is what you get" aspect of the 1RN system, but on the other, I also like how the 2RN system is easier to predict, so either is fine by me.

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I just don't like the numbers lying to me. The designers think I'm no good with percentages. And being human, they're absolutely correct. But hidden game mechanics always draw my ire. It's also annoying with each new release when we argue over whether the game is 1 or 2 RN based on our subjective experiences until somebody can hack the game and confirm an answer.

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15 hours ago, Darros said:

I much prefer 1RN because what you see is what you get. Having the hit rate not be the rate that's displayed is kind of ridiculous to me. I understand why they did it even if I don't prefer it but why hide it on the display? It's also kind of dumb that a hit rate like a 95 will actually hit nearly all the time rather than, you know, 95% of the time.

All of this.

1.5 RN favoring hits on WTA and misses on WTD would be neat though.

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So it looks like the biggest point is whether we have/need an honest percentage or otherwise.

As an update my original point, I don't care too much about whether the percentages are honest of otherwise. When I first played FE (Binding Blade), I had no idea about the RNG mechanism, and it wasn't really something that I could care either. It was only until when I started playing Awakening that I found out that 2RN was such a thing. If it works in actual practice - which I think it mostly did, again considering how long that lasted - then I question whether the percentage honesty really matters at all.

The other problem I just thought of now is, dodge-oriented units in 1RN/honest percentage would have to have a resultant 0-10/15% chance of being hit by the enemy, to have the same dodgetank viability as 2RN games. I think, from a game programmer's perspective, that's a smaller margin of window for in making such units reasonably viable (and balanced), and it will require more fine-tuning by the game programmers in relevant stats (Speed, Luck, Skill etc) for both player and enemy units and their weapons. Actually, do anyone know how useful Swordmasters are in Thracia 776?

Edited by henrymidfields

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8 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

So it looks like the biggest point is whether we have/need an honest percentage or otherwise.

As an update my original point, I don't care too much about whether the percentages are honest of otherwise. When I first played FE (Binding Blade), I had no idea about the RNG mechanism, and it wasn't really something that I could care either. It was only until when I started playing Awakening that I found out that 2RN was such a thing. If it works in actual practice - which I think it mostly did, again considering how long that lasted - then I question whether the percentage honesty really matters at all.

The other problem I just thought of now is, dodge-oriented units in 1RN/honest percentage would have to have a resultant 0-10/15% chance of being hit by the enemy, to have the same dodgetank viability as 2RN games. If I am correct, that's a smaller margin of window for such viability, and it will require much more fine-tuning in relevant stats (Speed, Luck, Skill etc) for both player and enemy units and their weapons. Actually, do anyone know how useful Swordmasters are in Thracia 776?

Well, you get 5 swordmasters, two of which start in the class. Of said 2, Eyvel is useful when you have her, but is kinda deadweight once you get her back in chapter 24x, while the other, Shannam, is a joke character whose only use is buying things at a discount with his bargain skill. Shiva is probably the best of them, having the best availability, a PCC of 4, Sol, and oddly high Str and Def growths for his class(45% and 30% respectively), and while his speed growth is pretty low for a myrm(35%), it's offset by his high base(12) and Thracia's low caps. Mareeta is very good as well, despite joining kinda underleveled, she has very good offensive growths(though her defense is pretty bad), luna and eventually astra, a PCC of 5, and a personal weapon that has a brave effect, 20% crit, and the nihil skill. Troude is okay, but very unremarkable compared to Shiva and Mareeta.

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I like Fates' take on RNG the most. It helps pad out the high hit rates to reward more "reliable" strategies while the lower end doesn't punish inaccurate attacks that don't need it. Dodge-tanking is not supposed to be a reliable means of defense.

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