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What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?


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4 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

Wait, what? I must have missed that one while trying to find out why a Ninja suddenly decided to climb onto a(probably really loud) puppet thing, and why we even HAVE Rinkah in the game.

Because without Rinkah we wouldn't have any base Axe users in Birthright.

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8 hours ago, Armagon said:

Except Genealogy was shit from a gameplay standpoint.

 

genealogy was one of the most unique games in the series though and definitely had a lot of good ideas and mechanics. i really enjoyed the massive maps where you'd take all the castles and all that. idk if i'd like that back in a new game but it was certainly nice for that game. i can see some flaws with the game but i don't really see how it was shit from a gameplay standpoint at all

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5 hours ago, Azz said:

I don't really agree with this personally.

I love FE5 however, you know there is something wrong with a game where you need a guide to playthrough it. Maybe it's just me and the fact I'm not the best at FE but still.

As for FE4, its story is decent in Gen1 but Gen 2 really goes down hill as it becomes your bog standard FE plot. Also the gameplay is some of the worst in the series alongside FE2/FE15 and FE13. I get what they were doing with the 'Giant maps to portray the giant conflict' but it didn't work.

I know its mainly down to personal preference, but to say they were the best games in the series is a far cry.

i really liked the giants maps to portray the giant conflict thing and i think it worked pretty damn well for that game. it would be possible to do it better by giving players more options throughout the map but i wouldn't say it didn't work at all. fe5 probably could have dropped more hints as to what kinds of things were accessible or how to recruit units so that you wouldn't need a strategy guide to play it but overall it was a great game. i also don't think the gameplay in fe2/15 was really that bad either. i certainly wouldn't want it for more games but again, it worked pretty well for that game. also another reason why i think fe4/5 were some of the best is because they had the best stories by far and actually made me really care about the story and characters. fe4 gen 2 still had some standout villains that really helped the plot so i really don't think that plot is that bad.

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22 minutes ago, edgelordweeaboo said:

genealogy was one of the most unique games in the series though

Unique ≠ good.

23 minutes ago, edgelordweeaboo said:

definitely had a lot of good ideas and mechanics.

That were implemented poorly. Just because you have a good idea on paper doesn't mean it would be good in practice.

23 minutes ago, edgelordweeaboo said:

i can see some flaws with the game but i don't really see how it was shit from a gameplay standpoint at all

Well, let's see.

  • Game balance is completely thrown out the window. You thought Revelation's unit balance was bad? A unit that has either a mount, Holy Blood, or Pursuit (or all three) is automatically better than units who don't. Heck, just by having a mount, you become one of the best units in the game. Other FE games do suffer from Horse Emblem superiority as well (FE6) but it's at it's worse in FE4
  • The giant maps, while good on a narrative standpoint, make the game an absolute slog to play through. The maps tend to be empty and some even force backtracking (Ch.2). Oh, and it also contributes to Horse Emblem superiority.
  • The Pawn Shop was one of the worst things in the game. You basically have to pay to trade weapons. Every other game in the series let's you trade normally. Don't fix what ain't broke.
  • Villages tend to be hard to save. Ch.2 comes to mind where you basically have to rush the first castle just to get access to the villages but by the time you do, the bandits have already started burning them down.
  • The Love System is one of the less flawed things in the game but it's still cryptic, because you never know how much you need to get two units to marry.
  • Speaking of crypticness, some items are just too hidden to the point that you need a guide. Look, i get it, it was the SNES era. SNES games tended to have them. That doesn't excuse it. How the fuck is anyone supposed to know that in Ch.1, if you place Lex on this very specific tile near the lake, he gets a Brave Axe?

When i played FE4, it felt like the game was sacrificing gameplay for the sake of the story and that's a big no in my book. The Jugdral series is the worst FE series in my opinion. FE4's gameplay was abysmal and FE5 basically required a guide. Kaga's best game was FE3. Good gameplay with decent story.

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19 minutes ago, Armagon said:

The Love System is one of the less flawed things in the game but it's still cryptic, because you never know how much you need to get two units to marry.

I think units become lovers if they gain 500 Love Points.  The real issues with the Love System are the difficulty of tracking Love Points between units precisely and the significantly higher risk of creating unwanted pairings by accident.

19 minutes ago, Armagon said:

How the fuck is anyone supposed to know that in Ch.1, if you place Lex on this very specific tile near the lake, he gets a Brave Axe?

Or, for that matter, that Arden gets a Follow-Up Ring if you drag his slow butt all the way to a similarly unspecified tile?  When he's better off guarding the castle?  It's all dreadfully counter-intuitive.

Edited by Von Ithipathachai
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8 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I think units become lovers if they gain 500 Love Points.  The real issues with the Love System are the difficulty of tracking Love Points between units precisely and the significantly higher risk of creating unwanted pairings by accident.

That's what i meant. I know it's 500 Love Points, it's just the game never tells you how much any unit has aside from some vague messages. Having units marry automatically upon reaching 500 Love Points is also an issue. I'd assume a remake would notify and ask you if you wanted to let two units marry like in the 3DS games.

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9 hours ago, Slumber said:

Oni Chieftain.

Ah, that explains why I never knew about it, because Rinkah is garbage and nobody else gets that Tree unless I want me to do that. Guess I know what to do with my Oni Chieftain Bond Unit now, though.

6 hours ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Because without Rinkah we wouldn't have any base Axe users in Birthright.

Oh, no, not Axe users! How am I supposed to play the game without - wait. You said Bows take the same place as Axes in the Weapon Triangle? Welp, never mind, I'm good.

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18 hours ago, Armagon said:

Except Genealogy was shit from a gameplay standpoint.

 

If you're going to bash at FE4 for its gameplay, do it right.

I guess now will be another quarrel of us debating the badness of FE4 I assume?

Anyways, I agree with OP. Kaga-san has made the best franchise there is and FE4 is the best in terms of gameplay. 

EDIT: Saw you're reasons for FE4 so I'll counter those.

8 hours ago, Armagon said:

Game balance is completely thrown out the window. You thought Revelation's unit balance was bad? A unit that has either a mount, Holy Blood, or Pursuit (or all three) is automatically better than units who don't. Heck, just by having a mount, you become one of the best units in the game. Other FE games do suffer from Horse Emblem superiority as well (FE6) but it's at it's worse in FE4

 

Not necessarily true. Alec and Noish are kinda bad to just mediocre no matter what you throw at them. Alec is not that great as a parent but Noish is on the other hand.  

Horses are always good because of move and this IS the reason why they are good even if stat wise, they are bad. You're exaggerating on how horses are mandatory in this game when in reality, they are not needed most of the time. 

As for Holy blood, not really. Deimne is better than Lester despite Lester having holy blood for some reason and funny thing is, Deimne doesn't even have holy blood either.

FE4 has broken units like pretty much how every FE game has. To say that the game can be beaten with just units that have holy blood is implying that the game has units that are overpowered. If you think that the holy blood units are overpowered, then don't bother using them since its an option to use them although I'm not exactly sure if the substitutes are good enough to kill off Ishtar.

8 hours ago, Armagon said:
8 hours ago, Armagon said:

The giant maps, while good on a narrative standpoint, make the game an absolute slog to play through. The maps tend to be empty and some even force backtracking (Ch.2). Oh, and it also contributes to Horse Emblem superiority.

They are nearly open ended maps, how can you expect them to be good in design? Also, considering the limits that the SNES had, this is a good accomplishment in itself. 

The idea of those maps being big is because every situation in each chapter is different telling a story in between while still resuming in gameplay, something which FE has not done right the entire time as its always the cutscene first and then the game starts. Chapter 2 is a good example of this. You see bandits from that far off of distance but there is noway you will make it there in time. Suddenly, you get Lewyn and Syliva to take care of them.

This makes sense when you think about it because this is a game that is more on the story and less on the gameplay and this is exactly what SoV kinda does too.

8 hours ago, Armagon said:

Villages tend to be hard to save. Ch.2 comes to mind where you basically have to rush the first castle just to get access to the villages but by the time you do, the bandits have already started burning them down.

Its still possible to save those villages regardless. The game was not designed for you to save them downright before the bandits start attacking the villages in the first place. Infact, I don't even think its even possible to do such a thing in pretty much all the chapters where the bandits will attack the villages. That's why you get about like 8 chances to save it. Most FE games will only give you one chance to save them which in FE4's case is actually kinda generous when you think about it.

 

8 hours ago, Armagon said:

The Love System is one of the less flawed things in the game but it's still cryptic, because you never know how much you need to get two units to marry.

Funny because when I mentioned once that marriage isn't fully explained to you, you pretty much said that it was self explanatory at best.

Anyways, whether or not you know it or not, its not required to get them. Even though I said earlier that I'm not certain that sub units can be good enough against Ishtar, I'm pretty sure that there is some solution to that. If at all you notice it, then good. Now do a second playthrough and try doing  to enjoy the game better.

8 hours ago, Armagon said:

Speaking of crypticness, some items are just too hidden to the point that you need a guide. Look, i get it, it was the SNES era. SNES games tended to have them. That doesn't excuse it. How the fuck is anyone supposed to know that in Ch.1, if you place Lex on this very specific tile near the lake, he gets a Brave Axe?

Again, you don't need to? I missed a lot of hidden items on my first playthrough of the game and i beated the game just fine. Maybe better luck on your second playthrough?

8 hours ago, Armagon said:

When i played FE4, it felt like the game was sacrificing gameplay for the sake of the story and that's a big no in my book. The Jugdral series is the worst FE series in my opinion. FE4's gameplay was abysmal and FE5 basically required a guide. Kaga's best game was FE3. Good gameplay with decent story.

 

Then by your logic, pretty much every game that is story based sacrifices gameplay in favour of good story. People often complain that Nintendo games don't often focus on good story telling despite games like Zelda and Metroid doing the complete opposite. FE4 just turns out to be one of the best story written games that Nintendo/IS have ever written and many of us are taking it granted that Nintendo will never think of another good story like this. 

Quite frankly, you're kinda being hypocritical when stating that because your favourite FE game happens to have a shallow gameplay but solid presentation as far as I can tell. I enjoyed the gameplay of it personally but others don't see it the way we both do.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Harvey
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6 hours ago, Harvey said:

FE4 is the best in terms of gameplay. 

Hahaha no

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

Not necessarily true. Alec and Noish are kinda bad to just mediocre no matter what you throw at them. Alec is not that great as a parent but Noish is on the other hand.  

The parenting side is whatever. Alec and Noish are still better than Arden and most foot units. I'd argue Ayra is better though because she happens to have Holy Blood and also Astra.

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

As for Holy blood, not really. Deimne is better than Lester despite Lester having holy blood for some reason and funny thing is, Deimne doesn't even have holy blood either.

That depends on who Lester's father is though. Deimne gets points for being one of the better substitutes and he can actually be better than Lester, assuming Lester didn't have a terrible father.

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

FE4 has broken units like pretty much how every FE game has.

Ok how is this a counter?

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

To say that the game can be beaten with just units that have holy blood is implying that the game has units that are overpowered.

Holy Weapons are overpowered as hell. Also, most 2nd Gen units will have Holy Blood so this supposed counter kinda falls flat.

Also, there are plenty of FE4 units that many deem overpowered. Sigurd, for example.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

If you think that the holy blood units are overpowered, then don't bother using them since its an option to use them

What? Again, that's like, most of 2nd Gen.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

They are nearly open ended maps, how can you expect them to be good in design?

By not making them empty.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Also, considering the limits that the SNES had, this is a good accomplishment in itself. 

From a technical standpoint, i agree, but that doesn't make the game good.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

You see bandits from that far off of distance but there is noway you will make it there in time. Suddenly, you get Lewyn and Syliva to take care of them.

Ah yes, two units to take care of 6 bandits, separated by forest tiles which hinder movement, once of which hits like a wet noodle. Even with Dance, one village is bound to get hit.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

The game was not designed for you to save them downright before the bandits start attacking the villages in the first place.

Then that's bad game design because you actually will get the best reward if you save them fully intact. Even if it's just gold, you don't have a best reward only to make it so the player isn't supposed to get it.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Funny because when I mentioned once that marriage isn't fully explained to you, you pretty much said that it was self explanatory at best.

I'm going to need context because if i said that, it's probably because you were saying something stupid.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Now do a second playthrough and try doing  to enjoy the game better.

Oh i tried to give the game a second chance. But going through the slog again just wasn't worth it.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Again, you don't need to? I missed a lot of hidden items on my first playthrough of the game and i beated the game just fine.

Oh i did too but i probably would've had a better time if i did get those obscure items. Lex is only decent until he gets his Brave Axe, in which he becomes one of the best units in the game. But that's dependent on whether or not you know where to send Lex next to the lake.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Then by your logic, pretty much every game that is story based sacrifices gameplay in favour of good story.

....No. Not at all. Where the hell are you getting this notion from?

I mean, you're right in some cases but to say that "pretty much every story-based game sacrifices gameplay in favor of story" is just wrong.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

FE4 just turns out to be one of the best story written games that Nintendo/IS have ever written and many of us are taking it granted that Nintendo will never think of another good story like this. 

Pretty much everyone i've seen agrees that FE stories are only average at best. Even when FE4 is considered to have the best FE story (and some would argue PoR has the best story), it's still on the whole, average. You can't tell me that FE4 is the best story Nintendo has ever produced when the Xenoblade series exists.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Quite frankly, you're kinda being hypocritical when stating that because your favourite FE game happens to have a shallow gameplay but solid presentation as far as I can tell.

SoV's gameplay is shallow but it's at least mostly balanced. And none of the maps are the slogs that are FE4 maps. I'd much rather play through SoV's desert maps again than play any map in FE4.

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2 hours ago, Armagon said:

Hahaha no

You know, its not nice to actually mock over people like that. Even I know my limits.

2 hours ago, Armagon said:

The parenting side is whatever. Alec and Noish are still better than Arden and most foot units. I'd argue Ayra is better though because she happens to have Holy Blood and also Astra.

So you say parenting side is whatever when that is the actual feature of the game to begin with? wow.

Generals are never considered to be used outside the castles in the first place. Heck, you don't even need one to guard the castle. Why is this a thing if its redundant to begin with? 

2 hours ago, Armagon said:

That depends on who Lester's father is though. Deimne gets points for being one of the better substitutes and he can actually be better than Lester, assuming Lester didn't have a terrible father.

The point of Deimne's existence is that if Lester DOESN'T exist. If players just don't want to get Lester, then they are fine with Deimne because he's a good unit and not someone whom you can bench off easily. For those who want to use him, just look up for the best father, its that simple.

2 hours ago, Armagon said:

Ok how is this a counter?

9 hours ago, Harvey said:

Because you're complaining how broken the units are in this game and you're not getting the fact that this is apparent throughout FE's history? Like broken units exist for a reason to make the game easier. You don't need to use Rutger in FE6 to beat it but why not use him if he's good in the long run?

Infact I can just say that broken units are the most fun to watch because they are more enjoyable and you like them better because of them being broken. The only exception to this rule is Ryoma because he's broken for wrong reasons and just makes the rest of the cast nearly redundant in the first place but he's still fun to use though.

2 hours ago, Armagon said:

Holy Weapons are overpowered as hell. Also, most 2nd Gen units will have Holy Blood so this supposed counter kinda falls flat.

Also, there are plenty of FE4 units that many deem overpowered. Sigurd, for example.

Again so what? It helps to make the game fun and just makes players like the characters better and I wish FE6 had more broken units like Rutger.

As for Sigurd....he exists in the prologue till chapter 5 which is supposed to like range from things going easy at first to things getting a steep difficulty. From chapter 6 onwards, you get a main lord who is unpromoted and difficult to start with and that's when the game starts its challenge. 

Plot wise, it wouldn't make sense for Sigurd to stay unpromoted because he was in a noble position at the time and his bases reflect on that. So what do you expect?

If you're implying that the game doesn't need the rest of the cast and that Sigurd can solo the maps easily, well that's doable but it requires a lot of skill and patience and would you want to deal with that kind of patience considering this game's long maps that you hate so much?

2 hours ago, Armagon said:

What? Again, that's like, most of 2nd Gen.

10 hours ago, Harvey said:

And again, don't bother using them.

2 hours ago, Armagon said:

By not making them empty.

10 hours ago, Harvey said:

What do you mean by this emptiness? Please elaborate because the game constantly has things that are situational all of a sudden.

2 hours ago, Armagon said:

From a technical standpoint, i agree, but that doesn't make the game good.

10 hours ago, Harvey said:

Thing is the game is good. Its just that you for some reason found it a chore. Even I can say that FE6 is a good game despite my mixed feelings towards it.

2 hours ago, Armagon said:

Then that's bad game design because you actually will get the best reward if you save them fully intact. Even if it's just gold, you don't have a best reward only to make it so the player isn't supposed to get it.

10 hours ago, Harvey said:

No its not because you're not suppose to get the full reward because the game kinda teaches you a sense of reality that soldiers themselves have to get there to save villages in the first place. Its not realistic if its possible to get the full reward and it only makes the game easier because you get more money which means you don't need to use the arena at all.

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

I'm going to need context because if i said that, it's probably because you were saying something stupid.

10 hours ago, Harvey said:

I once stated that FE needs to give better tutorials to explain their stuff a bit more. When I said that it doesn't explain marriage properly, you stated that Cuan and Ethlin have their lover names labled which implies that is how you get the idea that marriage is a thing in this game. Now you're saying that even that isn't done right.

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

Oh i tried to give the game a second chance. But going through the slog again just wasn't worth it.

10 hours ago, Harvey said:

Then don't play it and troll others about it. Its just that simple.

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

Oh i did too but i probably would've had a better time if i did get those obscure items. Lex is only decent until he gets his Brave Axe, in which he becomes one of the best units in the game. But that's dependent on whether or not you know where to send Lex next to the lake.

10 hours ago, Harvey said:

Again..you don't need to.

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

....No. Not at all. Where the hell are you getting this notion from?

I mean, you're right in some cases but to say that "pretty much every story-based game sacrifices gameplay in favor of story" is just wrong.

Eh...I've played too many games to even bother counting. Point and click games pretty much on plot and less on gameplay, visual novels like Pheonix wright are pretty much more on plot, Undertale pretty much is a plot based game and not much on gameplay, etc etc etc.

The idea is your logic that sacrificing gameplay in favour of plot is a bad thing to you, then you're only narrowing your options of what types of games you're interested in and in this case, you have absolute 0 interest in FE4.

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

Pretty much everyone i've seen agrees that FE stories are only average at best. Even when FE4 is considered to have the best FE story (and some would argue PoR has the best story), it's still on the whole, average. You can't tell me that FE4 is the best story Nintendo has ever produced when the Xenoblade series exists.

10 hours ago, Harvey said:

If you're going to compare FE to other RPG series, then yes, FE plot is average at best as third parties have made their games better and more deep in characterization that Nintendo will not always get it right.

However, if you're just like me who only sticks with Nintendo most of their time, then FE in the world of Nintendo IPs is one of the series that has the best plots written atleast in terms of Nintendo games alone because 95% of their games have no story that involves character dialogue or dramas as much as FE. Xenoblade is also like FE as well no doubt in that but its only started in smaller levels than FE.

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

SoV's gameplay is shallow but it's at least mostly balanced. And none of the maps are the slogs that are FE4 maps. I'd much rather play through SoV's desert maps again than play any map in FE4.

Sadly, its not. Archers are overpowered in this game, fatigue system is redundant, ambush reinforcements are the worst of them all constantly spawning every single time, lack of strategy added, questionable changes in terms of promotion and reclassing and limited gold coins that block you from getting better items unless DLC is in mind.

In terms of maps, I personally didn't enjoy the desert maps because of low move and lack of depth put into them.

But does that mean that I hate SoV? No. I enjoy the game as much as you do because of the things that it does that no other FE game(except FE7,9 and 10 I guess) has accomplished which is its fantastic presentation. This game alone makes me wish that future FE games should look more like FE15 for good reasons.

If you still disagree with a lot of this, then how about just letting it go and move on elsewhere instead of bashing the same thing over again. Its clear at this point that people know that you don't like FE4 at all. Why bash at someone who thinks of it otherwise?

 

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  • FE1 is my least favorite game in the series
  • Boey > Mae in stats in FE2 (In Echoes I feel, it's the other way around.)
  • Xane is the most unique unit in the series
  • FE4 is my second least favorite game
  • I don't think Arden is a bad unit (aside from his move)
  • Tinny is my favorite unit in gen 2 
  • FE5 isn't the hardest game in the series, the game is just really rng dependent.
  • Cecilia is a good unit
  • Eliwood is my favorite lord in FE7
  • (despite her being stupidly naive) Eirika is my second favorite lord in the series, first being Marth.
  • FE11 wasn't a bad game and I prefer it over FE1.
  • FE15 was an alright game but because of the fact they reused Gaiden's maps, I have a hard time enjoying the maps and only really play for the story.
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FE4 just turns out to be one of the best story written games that Nintendo/IS have ever written and many of us are taking it granted that Nintendo will never think of another good story like this. 

If FE4 is the best IS can do, then i don't want any story from them, since FE4 turns medicore once gen 2 hits.

 

Just generic FE plot once Seliph comes to Screen and the story gets ruined by Alphanankos LoLoptyr.

Tellius > FE4 by a mile, and is the only FE Story i can consider good.

 

 

Edited by Shrimperor
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1 hour ago, Harvey said:

You know, its not nice to actually mock over people like that. Even I know my limits.

I mean, it's not like you do it to.....oh wait

 

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

So you say parenting side is whatever when that is the actual feature of the game to begin with? wow.

I know it's an actual feature of the game. It's just that some units can be good but still be bad parents.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Because you're complaining how broken the units are in this game and you're not getting the fact that this is apparent throughout FE's history?

At least most FE games try to have some sense of balance. FE4 barely has any.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Then don't play it and troll others about it.

Alright, every time you complain about FE6, i'm just gonna quote this.

 

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Again so what? It helps to make the game fun and just makes players like the characters better and I wish FE6 had more broken units like Rutger.

Listen, there's no such thing as a perfectly balanced game. Also, whether or not being broken makes the game fun is subjective. It can be fun......within reason. But when a characters viability is dependent on whether it has x, y, or z, then it's just bad balancing.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Point and click games pretty much on plot and less on gameplay, visual novels like Pheonix wright are pretty much more on plot, Undertale pretty much is a plot based game and not much on gameplay, etc etc etc.

>Compares Fire Emblem gameplay to Ace Attorney and Undertale gameplay

flat,800x800,070,f.jpg

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

The idea is your logic that sacrificing gameplay in favour of plot is a bad thing to you

When it's done in excess, yes, it is a bad thing. It also depends on what type of game it is and how it's implemented.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Again..you don't need to

>You don't need to have an easier time

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

When I said that it doesn't explain marriage properly, you stated that Cuan and Ethlin have their lover names labled which implies that is how you get the idea that marriage is a thing in this game. Now you're saying that even that isn't done right.

I know what thread you're talking about. It's the one over at the FE Switch section and you made a thread asking how the tutorials should be implemented. I went through that thread and literally could not find the part where i said that Quan and Ethelin have their lover names labeled. Harvey, are you making shit up now?

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

And again, don't bother using them.

>Don't bother using most of the 2nd Gen cast

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

What do you mean by this emptiness? Please elaborate because the game constantly has things that are situational all of a sudden.

Ch.2 was really empty after conquering the second castle, since it was backtracking. In fact, a lot of chapters require like two-three turns (for the mounts) to even get to an enemy.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Thing is the game is good. Its just that you for some reason found it a chore.

I've gone in depth as to why i've found it a chore. It wasn't for "some reason".

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Even I can say that FE6 is a good game despite my mixed feelings towards it.

You sure have a lot of people fooled then.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Nintendo games alone because 95% of their games have no story that involves character dialogue or dramas as much as FE.

That's a lie. Paper Mario, Mario&Luigi, Metroid Prime, Xenoblade, Golden Sun, Kid Icarus: Uprising, EarthBound, StarFox all have that. Hell, even some Zelda games such as Majora's Mask and Wind Waker have that. To say that "95% of Nintendo game don't have stories that involve character dialogue or dramas as much as FE" is false.

Also, you can have a lot of character dialogue and drama and still be an average written story. Xenoblade stories nuke Fire Emblem stories out of the water.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Archers are overpowered in this game

With Killer Bows, they are. But without them, they're only decent. And Python was never really a good unit for me anyway.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

fatigue system is redundant

This i will agree on

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

ambush reinforcements are the worst of them all constantly spawning every single time

Only if there is a Cantor and the Whitewings trivialize their summons.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

lack of strategy added,

True, there isn't a whole lot of strategy in SoV but the gameplay overall is still more balanced than FE4 ever will be.

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

questionable changes in terms of promotion

Not really. Regarding SoV's structure, it works well.

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

If you still disagree with a lot of this, then how about just letting it go and move on elsewhere instead of bashing the same thing over again.

I can say the same to you regarding FE6.

Also, i don't constantly bash FE4. It's been the first time in months. 

 

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Off-topic, but how do you get quotes to not eat each other on this system?

21 hours ago, Armagon said:

 

Well, let's see.

  • Game balance is completely thrown out the window. You thought Revelation's unit balance was bad? A unit that has either a mount, Holy Blood, or Pursuit (or all three) is automatically better than units who don't. Heck, just by having a mount, you become one of the best units in the game. Other FE games do suffer from Horse Emblem superiority as well (FE6) but it's at it's worse in FE4

 

This is a line used by a lot of people, but it often doesn't hold up. A couple of quick examples; it's generally agreed Noishe's other skills make him better than Alec despite lacking Pursuit. Dew has none of those, but has crazy good utility, and even combat if you know how to use him.

Quote
  • The giant maps, while good on a narrative standpoint, make the game an absolute slog to play through. The maps tend to be empty and some even force backtracking (Ch.2). Oh, and it also contributes to Horse Emblem superiority.

If you're comparing chapters alone, FE4 has only 12. It's better to compare castles to chapters in other game.

Chapter 2's backtracking actually helps make it less Horse Emblem. While your mounts go northwest and help the villages, your infantry can prepare to march east.

 
  • The Pawn Shop was one of the worst things in the game. You basically have to pay to trade weapons. Every other game in the series let's you trade normally. Don't fix what ain't broke.

Lacking or having less features doesn't make a game automatically worse. Case in point; repairing weapons and the weapon kill system. Unique doesn't mean bad, either.

 
  • Villages tend to be hard to save. Ch.2 comes to mind where you basically have to rush the first castle just to get access to the villages but by the time you do, the bandits have already started burning them down.

Alternatively, they're easier to save since they take 10 turns to destroy completely. FE4 is far from the only game that requires you to rush to save sub-objectives.

 
  • The Love System is one of the less flawed things in the game but it's still cryptic, because you never know how much you need to get two units to marry.

You always have a ballpark figure by going to the fortune teller.

 
  • Speaking of crypticness, some items are just too hidden to the point that you need a guide. Look, i get it, it was the SNES era. SNES games tended to have them. That doesn't excuse it. How the fuck is anyone supposed to know that in Ch.1, if you place Lex on this very specific tile near the lake, he gets a Brave Axe?

By looking up the hidden events on serenesforest.net

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7 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Off-topic, but how do you get quotes to not eat each other on this system?

Just.....quote them normally?

8 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

If you're comparing chapters alone, FE4 has only 12. It's better to compare castles to chapters in other game.

That's one way to look at it but it still doesn't stop FE4 from being a slog.

8 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Case in point; repairing weapons and the weapon kill system.

See, those were one of the few good things that FE4's gameplay did. I'd love to repair weapons through means other than a Hammerene.

11 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Alternatively, they're easier to save since they take 10 turns to destroy completely.

Yeah but it's really hard to save them fully intact. That's my issue with the villages.

11 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

You always have a ballpark figure by going to the fortune teller.

I'd rather know how much i have specifically as opposed to a vague message.

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23 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Just.....quote them normally?

I do, but my method breaks something. I guess they're readable anyway.

Quote

Yeah but it's really hard to save them fully intact. That's my issue with the villages.

It's impossible in many cases. Honestly, that sounds more like a pet peeve than anything else

 

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9 hours ago, Armagon said:

At least most FE games try to have some sense of balance. FE4 barely has any.

11 hours ago, Harvey said:

Eh. Pretty much every FE game does this.

Can't say for FE 9,10 and 11, 3 and 12 but for others...

FE1: Marth is broken, nothing much to say.

FE2/15: Alm, Celica, Mycen and any unit that promotes to a dread fighter are just downright broken.

FE4: Well you just stated holy blood units are broken anyways...

FE5: Othlin starts with the Pugi axe. Staff bots in this game are broken since they start with good ranks. Pretty much every fighting unit you get can be broken since this game's stats cap at 20.

FE6: Rutger is downright broken even on normal mode. He's not invincible but too often he will dodge and crit like crazy.

FE7: Well....the fact that you can use any one unit to solo the final chapter is itself proving just how broken each unit can be. Also Marcus says hi.

FE8: Haven't played it but I'm sure as hell that Seth sounds like he's broken.

FE13: Chrom and Robin combined are broken

FE14: Ryoma, Camilla and potentially Odin if done right are absolutely broken.

And no. Pretty much every FE game will have balance issues one way or another. 

9 hours ago, Armagon said:

Alright, every time you complain about FE6, i'm just gonna quote this.

 

I never complained about FE6. All I ever did was just expressed my frustrations with it and how some of the gameplay has some balance issues in terms of unit and weapons alone. And of course, Roy's scripted promotion and a bunch of annoying fetch quests. Other than that, its fine for what it does although I guess support conversations can also be an issue as well....

9 hours ago, Armagon said:

Ch.2 was really empty after conquering the second castle, since it was backtracking. In fact, a lot of chapters require like two-three turns (for the mounts) to even get to an enemy.

Ok so then the issue is with move and not the actual maps then? When you clear enemies, you have to seize the thrones. FE4 has 12 chapters and all of them are equivalent to that of your typical 25 chapter FIre emblem game.

Again, what does it have to do with empty maps?

9 hours ago, Armagon said:

You sure have a lot of people fooled then.

11 hours ago, Harvey said:

I always keep saying that I never stated that I hated FE6. All I ever did was just criticizing the game's main hero and some major balance issues, that's that. If people still think I hate it, well tough luck.

9 hours ago, Armagon said:

I've gone in depth as to why i've found it a chore. It wasn't for "some reason".

11 hours ago, Harvey said:

So far from what I read, it sounds like some reason to me.

9 hours ago, Armagon said:

That's a lie. Paper Mario, Mario&Luigi, Metroid Prime, Xenoblade, Golden Sun, Kid Icarus: Uprising, EarthBound, StarFox all have that. Hell, even some Zelda games such as Majora's Mask and Wind Waker have that. To say that "95% of Nintendo game don't have stories that involve character dialogue or dramas as much as FE" is false.

 

Which is why I said 95%. The other 5% are games that you have mentioned. You're not going to see Nintendo often doing storytelling games with depth on par with games like Owlboy, Undertale etc. Its just so few and far between. Believe me, I've played a lot of games from Nintendo and strong story is extremely rare in their resume.

And Xenoblade? Ok so it has better plot and characterization as FE but FE is older than Xenoblade though and still, you're not going to see Nintendo do so much more RPGs like those two and they aren't even written by Nintendo either. Anyways, what does this have to do with FE4's plot being average?

9 hours ago, Armagon said:

With Killer Bows, they are. But without them, they're only decent. And Python was never really a good unit for me anyway.

11 hours ago, Harvey said:

That's like saying Ryoma is not broken without his Rajinto. Why would you not use Killer bows on archers if you have the opportunity to do so? Atlas can be of use with it to be honest.

9 hours ago, Armagon said:

Only if there is a Cantor and the Whitewings trivialize their summons.

11 hours ago, Harvey said:

Yeah, only if there is a cantor and there are quite a lot of them.

9 hours ago, Armagon said:

True, there isn't a whole lot of strategy in SoV but the gameplay overall is still more balanced than FE4 ever will be.

11 hours ago, Harvey said:

And I already stated that it also has balance issues like FE4.

9 hours ago, Armagon said:

Not really. Regarding SoV's structure, it works well.

11 hours ago, Harvey said:

Don't want to tick you but only specific classes can reclass themselves back to change their classes. For a lot of units to reclass and promote based on that class, you need DLC.

9 hours ago, Armagon said:

I can say the same to you regarding FE6.

 

Ok so do it then. Atleast some of my arguments in FE6 are valid that others can also agree upon.

9 hours ago, Armagon said:

Also, i don't constantly bash FE4. It's been the first time in months. 

 

Buddy, trust me when I say this that you do bash at it time to time like how I bash at FE6 time to time. Get real.

EDIT: Also

>Compares Fire Emblem gameplay to Ace Attorney and Undertale gameplay

 

 

Where are you getting at this? Are you asking me to list SRPGs that have both good plot and gameplay or are just asking me about games that don't sacrifice gameplay and plot?

 

Edited by Harvey
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My seemingly unpopular FE opinion is that every FE game (that I've played, which is 6-12) is a good game at worst, in terms of both story and gameplay.

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48 minutes ago, ping said:

My seemingly unpopular FE opinion is that every FE game (that I've played, which is 6-12) is a good game at worst, in terms of both story and gameplay.

There's not a single FE game that I can think of that is so horribly done that it performed poorly and is reviewed poorly. Even birthright is a solid game of its own despite its main drawbacks.

But I guess that's IS for you. 

 

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7 hours ago, Harvey said:

I never complained about FE6.  All I ever did was just expressed my frustrations with it and how some of the gameplay has some balance issues in terms of unit and weapons alone.

Is that not a form of complaining?

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6 hours ago, Harvey said:

Eh. Pretty much every FE game does this.

Can't say for FE 9,10 and 11, 3 and 12 but for others...

FE1: Marth is broken, nothing much to say.

FE2/15: Alm, Celica, Mycen and any unit that promotes to a dread fighter are just downright broken.

FE4: Well you just stated holy blood units are broken anyways...

FE5: Othlin starts with the Pugi axe. Staff bots in this game are broken since they start with good ranks. Pretty much every fighting unit you get can be broken since this game's stats cap at 20.

FE6: Rutger is downright broken even on normal mode. He's not invincible but too often he will dodge and crit like crazy.

FE7: Well....the fact that you can use any one unit to solo the final chapter is itself proving just how broken each unit can be. Also Marcus says hi.

FE8: Haven't played it but I'm sure as hell that Seth sounds like he's broken.

FE13: Chrom and Robin combined are broken

FE14: Ryoma, Camilla and potentially Odin if done right are absolutely broken.

And no. Pretty much every FE game will have balance issues one way or another. 

>Odin

>Broken

Odin is flat out the worst unit in the game in Rev, and he takes a lot of work in Conquest.  Odin's my favorite Fates character and all, but he sure isn't broken.

Anyway, having a few broken units is pretty different from how in FE4, magic plot blood, magic plot weapons, and ponies pretty much define unit balance.  30 might legendaries that give +30 stats locked to certain people isn't even trying to balance.

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

I never complained about FE6. All I ever did was just expressed my frustrations with it and how some of the gameplay has some balance issues in terms of unit and weapons alone. And of course, Roy's scripted promotion and a bunch of annoying fetch quests. Other than that, its fine for what it does although I guess support conversations can also be an issue as well....

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

I always keep saying that I never stated that I hated FE6. All I ever did was just criticizing the game's main hero and some major balance issues, that's that. If people still think I hate it, well tough luck.

It sounded a lot like repeatedly complaining to me!   If you honestly don't hate it, you need to be better at framing your opinions.  Because you come across as someone who unreasonably bashes FE6 all the time.

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

Ok so then the issue is with move and not the actual maps then? When you clear enemies, you have to seize the thrones. FE4 has 12 chapters and all of them are equivalent to that of your typical 25 chapter FIre emblem game.

Again, what does it have to do with empty maps?

He literally just said you have to waste turns just travelling and not fighting, which is basically the definition of empty.  

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

So far from what I read, it sounds like some reason to me.

Literally just dismissing everything Armagon said isn't an argument.

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

Which is why I said 95%. The other 5% are games that you have mentioned. You're not going to see Nintendo often doing storytelling games with depth on par with games like Owlboy, Undertale etc. Its just so few and far between. Believe me, I've played a lot of games from Nintendo and strong story is extremely rare in their resume.

And Xenoblade? Ok so it has better plot and characterization as FE but FE is older than Xenoblade though and still, you're not going to see Nintendo do so much more RPGs like those two and they aren't even written by Nintendo either. Anyways, what does this have to do with FE4's plot being average?

That's definitely not only 5% of Nintendo's large projects these days.

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

That's like saying Ryoma is not broken without his Rajinto. Why would you not use Killer bows on archers if you have the opportunity to do so? Atlas can be of use with it to be honest.

Because Ryouma isn't broken without Raijinto???? It's basically strong infinite 1-2 in a rout heavy game.  

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Yeah, only if there is a cantor and there are quite a lot of them.

Which is also a clear warning that reinforcements are coming, and Armagon already pointed out that the Whitewings mitigate this issue.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

And I already stated that it also has balance issues like FE4.

Just because it has some balance issues doesn't mean they're automatically as bad as 4's "Pony Emblem: Magic Plot Inheritance"

Balance issues are a spectrum.  Just because both game have balance issues, doesn't mean those issues are inherently equal.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Don't want to tick you but only specific classes can reclass themselves back to change their classes. For a lot of units to reclass and promote based on that class, you need DLC.

The only characters who can't dreadfighter loop are girls and Alm, everyone else can use a villager fork to change to Merc and infinitely level that way.  And the girls besides Celica can still use villager fork, but not dread fighter loop.

Overclasses are completely optional, and everyone gets one.  You really don't need them to beat the game.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Ok so do it then. Atleast some of my arguments in FE6 are valid that others can also agree upon.

They're exaggerated and often incorrect.  If they weren't, people (myself included) wouldn't argue with them so frequently.  

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Buddy, trust me when I say this that you do bash at it time to time like how I bash at FE6 time to time. Get real.

I see people arguing with you over 6 far more than I see Armagon arguing over 4.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Where are you getting at this? Are you asking me to list SRPGs that have both good plot and gameplay or are just asking me about games that don't sacrifice gameplay and plot?

He's saying that your argument bringing up Ace Attorney and Undertale is completely irrelevant to discussion of FE4.  Fire Emblem is not a VN like Ace Attorney is, nor is it a bullet hell RPG mixture thingie like Undertale is.  The gameplay/genre is completely different, so using them as an example of story over gameplay just doesn't hold.

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7 hours ago, Harvey said:

FE2/15: Alm, Celica, Mycen and any unit that promotes to a dread fighter are just downright broken.

Celica and Mycen are not broken. Celica suffers from 4 Mov and Mycen joins very late into the game. Also, Mathilda is a much better Gold Knight than Mycen.

That's for FE15 though. Don't know how it was in FE2 but i'd imagine it was similar.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Well....the fact that you can use any one unit to solo the final chapter is itself proving just how broken each unit can be.

Oh man, one chapter, you sure got me there.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

FE8: Haven't played it but I'm sure as hell that Seth sounds like he's broken.

The game is often referred to as Seth Emblem, and for good reason. However, the game also let's you freely grind, so once that's thrown into the mix, it distorts things. That said, in a no-grind run, Seth is still the best unit in the game, but other units are able to keep up.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

FE13: Chrom and Robin combined are broken

  1. That's just Pair-Up being broken
  2. See FE8
7 hours ago, Harvey said:

FE14: Ryoma, Camilla and potentially Odin if done right are absolutely broken.

One of these are not like the others.

Odin requires grinding to even be good but Conquest doesn't let him do that and he suffers from Revelation's horrible unit balance.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

And no. Pretty much every FE game will have balance issues one way or another. 

16 hours ago, Armagon said:

there's no such thing as a perfectly balanced game.

 

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

I never complained about FE6.

You've complained several times about FE6. A lot of it is just you bitching about "how Roy is the worst unit in the game because he's useless throughout the entire game" even though you've been proven wrong time and time again.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Ok so then the issue is with move and not the actual maps then?

The move does contribute to FE4's emptyness but even with higher move, there'd still be portions of the game where there's nothing (again, Ch.2). FE7 Hector's Tale showed how you could do the "seize multiple castles" thing without the need for giant maps.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Again, what does it have to do with empty maps?

The fact that there's just empty space between one castle and the next set of enemies.

".

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

The other 5% are games that you have mentioned.

That's not 5%.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Anyways, what does this have to do with FE4's plot being average?

You said

On 12/17/2017 at 2:20 AM, Harvey said:

FE4 just turns out to be one of the best story written games that Nintendo/IS have ever written and many of us are taking it granted that Nintendo will never think of another good story like this. 

 

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

but FE is older than Xenoblade though

Irrelevant.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

That's like saying Ryoma is not broken without his Rajinto. Why would you not use Killer bows on archers if you have the opportunity to do so?

Difference between Rajinto and Killer Bows is that Ryoma comes with the Rajinto by default whereas Killer Bows need to be forged and without the DLC, you'd only have enough gold to forge one.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Yeah, only if there is a cantor and there are quite a lot of them.

Cantors still aren't that hard to deal with because the Whitewings exist.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

And I already stated that it also has balance issues like FE4.

Never said it didn't but it's overall more balanced than FE4.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

but only specific classes can reclass themselves back to change their classes.

Most games don't let you reclass period.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Atleast some of my arguments in FE6 are valid that others can also agree upon.

That's cute. If they actually were valid, most people wouldn't be calling you out on them. Compared to my FE4 complaints which actually do tend to be valid (though i will admit, i'm the only one who seems to have a problem with the villages, apparently). 

Now, this poll is outdated and it obviously doesn't have the opinions of every SF member. However, it is still of some use to us. According to this poll, Gaiden is considered to have the worst gameplay, followed by Genealogy, with 3rd place being a tie between Revelation and Awakening.

I'm bringing this up to show that, aside from the villages, people who don't like FE4 share mostly the same views.

 

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1 hour ago, Glaceon Mage said:

>Odin

>Broken

Odin is flat out the worst unit in the game in Rev, and he takes a lot of work in Conquest.  Odin's my favorite Fates character and all, but he sure isn't broken.

He is broken if you give him the effort and time. As you said, he's not worth training for it but it is doable since he's one of the only conquest units that can get samurai which has useful skills in mind.

1 hour ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Anyway, having a few broken units is pretty different from how in FE4, magic plot blood, magic plot weapons, and ponies pretty much define unit balance.  30 might legendaries that give +30 stats locked to certain people isn't even trying to balance.

And that's for a good reason because if you end up with substitutes, Ares and Shanan are going to be needed for you in the long run.

Just how many broken units are there in FE4 besides Sigurd, Ced, Ares, Shannan, Ayra and her kids?

1 hour ago, Glaceon Mage said:

He literally just said you have to waste turns just travelling and not fighting, which is basically the definition of empty.  

8 hours ago, Harvey said:

Again, its about move and seeing how big the maps are here, you can't have too many things happening in maps like that. FE4 is suppose to reflect facing an actual real battle where soldiers move from far distances for combat. What do you expect them to do there?

Infact, its the main reason why you don't see a lot of reinforcements happening because the maps are designed like that and the game is trying to make it look real.

1 hour ago, Glaceon Mage said:

That's definitely not only 5% of Nintendo's large projects these days.

8 hours ago, Harvey said:

Well I could be wrong here but from 1980's-2015 period, you won't see so many Nintendo games that did story as good as gameplay. nor do it on par with Square Enix or indie devs. 

 

1 hour ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Because Ryouma isn't broken without Raijinto???? It's basically strong infinite 1-2 in a rout heavy game.  

8 hours ago, Harvey said:

Again, unless for doing bragging rights, why not do it?

1 hour ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Just because it has some balance issues doesn't mean they're automatically as bad as 4's "Pony Emblem: Magic Plot Inheritance"

Balance issues are a spectrum.  Just because both game have balance issues, doesn't mean those issues are inherently equal.

So you're fine with OP trolling about FE4 all night then?

1 hour ago, Glaceon Mage said:

The only characters who can't dreadfighter loop are girls and Alm, everyone else can use a villager fork to change to Merc and infinitely level that way.  And the girls besides Celica can still use villager fork, but not dread fighter loop.

Overclasses are completely optional, and everyone gets one.  You really don't need them to beat the game.

I was referring to how inorder to change their classes for some of the units, you need DLC and the game isn't quite fair in that aspect. Its optional but why is it DLC locked?

1 hour ago, Glaceon Mage said:

They're exaggerated and often incorrect.  If they weren't, people (myself included) wouldn't argue with them so frequently.  

9 hours ago, Harvey said:

So Roy's late promotion, Weapon balance and unit growth balance aren't valid points?

1 hour ago, Glaceon Mage said:

I see people arguing with you over 6 far more than I see Armagon arguing over 4.

9 hours ago, Harvey said:

Still doesn't change the fact that he argues with 4 though and still trolling those who love 4 especially me. I'll shut up about FE6 bashing if you want me to but don't say that I'm worse then him because he trolls less than me because trolling is trolling nonetheless.

1 hour ago, Glaceon Mage said:

He's saying that your argument bringing up Ace Attorney and Undertale is completely irrelevant to discussion of FE4.  Fire Emblem is not a VN like Ace Attorney is, nor is it a bullet hell RPG mixture thingie like Undertale is.  The gameplay/genre is completely different, so using them as an example of story over gameplay just doesn't hold.

Well then in that case, that's a different story. Still, not every game needs to focus on both side of things because games are art as well.

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

You've complained several times about FE6. A lot of it is just you bitching about "how Roy is the worst unit in the game because he's useless throughout the entire game" even though you've been proven wrong time and time again.

If you want me to say that he's not that bad, then I'll say it. But he does suffer from a lot of things regardless of what you think about them.

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Difference between Rajinto and Killer Bows is that Ryoma comes with the Rajinto by default whereas Killer Bows need to be forged and without the DLC, you'd only have enough gold to forge one.

You still have the option to do one though so its not like you should avoid it just to make the game harder. If anything, its only more helpful to face the final dungeon.

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

That's cute. If they actually were valid, most people wouldn't be calling you out on them. Compared to my FE4 complaints which actually do tend to be valid (though i will admit, i'm the only one who seems to have a problem with the villages, apparently). 

A lot of my complaints are kinda the same of what reddit thinks here. And to be honest, I value their points right. Being swordlocked in a game that has swords being good doesn't necessarily make Roy all of a sudden a decent unit. I would personally like Roy to use javelins for example?

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Most games don't let you reclass period.

9 hours ago, Harvey said:

Only games that don't are from 1-8. I think its from 10 onwards that brings in reclassing.

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Now, this poll is outdated and it obviously doesn't have the opinions of every SF member. However, it is still of some use to us. According to this poll, Gaiden is considered to have the worst gameplay, followed by Genealogy, with 3rd place being a tie between Revelation and Awakening.

I'm bringing this up to show that, aside from the villages, people who don't like FE4 share mostly the same views.

So then how about you keep posting that link instead of flat out saying that FE4 has shit gameplay?

 

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36 minutes ago, Harvey said:

He is broken if you give him the effort and time. As you said, he's not worth training for it but it is doable since he's one of the only conquest units that can get samurai which has useful skills in mind.

If you need an excessive amount of effort, resources, or time, it's not broken.  By the logic you're using, Nino is broken.  But we all know that's not the case.

36 minutes ago, Harvey said:

And that's for a good reason because if you end up with substitutes, Ares and Shanan are going to be needed for you in the long run.

Just how many broken units are there in FE4 besides Sigurd, Ced, Ares, Shannan, Ayra and her kids?

You completely missed the point.  What stands above and makes you much better than others in FE4 is rigidly defined, and the gap is huge.  

36 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Again, its about move and seeing how big the maps are here, you can't have too many things happening in maps like that. FE4 is suppose to reflect facing an actual real battle where soldiers move from far distances for combat. What do you expect them to do there?

Infact, its the main reason why you don't see a lot of reinforcements happening because the maps are designed like that and the game is trying to make it look real.

Put more stuff to do in those big empty gaps where you do nothing but move?  Add enemies?  

Armagon's point was that not enough actual fighting happens in the big maps to make them interesting.  

36 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Well I could be wrong here but from 1980's-2015 period, you won't see so many Nintendo games that did story as good as gameplay. nor do it on par with Square Enix or indie devs. 

That is a very long period and the industry has shifted quite a bit in that period.  

36 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Again, unless for doing bragging rights, why not do it?

What's your point here?  Are you disputing that Raijinto is a big reason why Ryouma's good?

36 minutes ago, Harvey said:

So you're fine with OP trolling about FE4 all night then?

36 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Still doesn't change the fact that he argues with 4 though and still trolling those who love 4 especially me. I'll shut up about FE6 bashing if you want me to but don't say that I'm worse then him because he trolls less than me because trolling is trolling nonetheless.

He's actually making valid points and not trolling, as far as I can tell.  

36 minutes ago, Harvey said:

I was referring to how inorder to change their classes for some of the units, you need DLC and the game isn't quite fair in that aspect. Its optional but why is it DLC locked?

By which I assume you mean overclassing, which I have stated is something everyone gets one of (so no one has new relative advantages from overclassing, since everyone else is buffed as well) and is not necessary to beat the game, as it's kinda overkill.  It's perfectly fair.

36 minutes ago, Harvey said:

So Roy's late promotion, Weapon balance and unit growth balance aren't valid points?

The problem is you exaggerate the problems these cause immensely.  Yes, Roy promotes late and that sucks for him.  But that doesn't make him entirely useless, which you seem so keen to say oftentimes.  Yes, there are some oddities in the weapon balance, but axes and lances are not without their own merits. 

Unit growth isn't really a problem, though, it's unit bases that tend to cause trouble in FE6 balancing.  Most of the units who are considered "bad" in FE6 are units whose low bases give them a lot of trouble getting started, like Sophia and Wendy.  

36 minutes ago, Harvey said:

A lot of my complaints are kinda the same of what reddit thinks here. And to be honest, I value their points right. Being swordlocked in a game that has swords being good doesn't necessarily make Roy all of a sudden a decent unit. I would personally like Roy to use javelins for example?

The difference is these people on reddit are not exaggerating, and are presenting their opinions in a calm, reasonable manner, though there are some exceptions I would dispute if I was able.  

36 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Only games that don't are from 1-8. I think its from 10 onwards that brings in reclassing.

9 and 10 don't have reclassing, only 11 on do.  What's even the point here?  

Edited by Glaceon Mage
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I don't really like to butt into something like this but FE4 has a lot of game play problems.

Whether the mounted units and infantry units are broken are not broken isn't anywhere near to being the biggest problem.  The real problem is how any given battle plays out, regardless of which set of units that you pick..

The bulk of enemies move in 3x3 clumps, which yes, makes them look like formations in actual armies, but gameplaywise, it means that their is very little incentive to try to split them up. (this would take 10+turns to "wait on the edge of their range"  even for a STANDARD enemy group. and require you to use your full move-1 to retreat away from them every turn in the process. 

Instead you are fully expected to have units capable of surviving 5-10 enemies in a single enemy phase. And this is not something that is exclusive to cavalry units. - Even the sword masters in Genealogy can literally tank an average of 6 (when its not more) hits from Silver weapons . Not even "dodge" - I'm talking about the raw Def/HP of a swordmaster in this game.  The most fragile characters (mages/archers/troubadours) can also absorb three physical hits from on-level enemies.  The game actually changes very little between Chapter 1 and The Final Holy War in this regard - An enemy groups of Paladins and an enemy group of brigands play out nearly identically. Only bosses and mages have any worth to them as enemies. 

The only exception to this extreme player bulkiness and the highlight of the gameplay  is the unpromoted part of gen 2 ... but chapter 6 A: deliberately splits the enemies into smaller groups for the only time in the game for easier experience gain. B: Is loaded with sub 35 hit Axe users. C: You get TWO healers. D: Exposes enemy unit leaders by putting them in front so you can get rid of leadership stars and make the axe user's stats even worse E: You can park on castles to further reduce enemy hit to 0 if you are still having problems. By Chapter 7 your Holy weapon users start to trickle in and you will have gotten enough money to fight in the arena at the castle reducing the gameplay back to its first gen state.

So while you can "limit yourself as a player" by using the infantry or the replacement gen 2 units, the way you use them in COMBAT does not actualy change except in special cases. It is only truly the lack of movement and Canto that matters for 90% of why they are inferior to the OP units. (They replacement units can also struggle against  enemy holy weapon bosses but that's like 1-2 times per chapter in gen2.... ) 

The game is totally barbaric and enemy phase focused - Strategy boils down only to finding the most efficient way to convince enemies to suicide on your units. Their is no real risk assessment with doing this objective first or that. In the end you can simply work toward all of them with little worry that your A group or B group won't be strong enough. ALL OF your teams will be more than strong enough, despite splitting up/etc.  The game never moves beyond a binary "get in enemies range".  Having units this bulky is just giving you a gigantic buffer to make multiple mistakes and take Weapon Triangle Disadvantage fights. .. or worse .. to play "quickly" by running past enemies in an attempt to avoid the gameplay.

Most of the first 9 FE games are "bait friendly" but Genealogy takes it to the ugliest level - it is a virtual requirement for how you play the game, regardless of which units you use, and  you do it against much larger enemy groups than in other games. Sending someone alone into a clump of 8 and expecting them to beat them all seems like it would be a bad thing, even with weapon triangle advantage, but for some reason Genealogy rewards you for doing this. Sometimes it even rewards you for doing it with weapon triangle neutrality or in the case of Holy Weapons users even disadvantage.

The game is almost anti-strategy in that any single turn has very little importance (it's very hard to get units killed without making mistakes unless you keep making them over  3~ turns) not to mention that you can't really kill as many units on player phase as on enemy phase even if you wanted too  and the many blank turns with no fighting. The way that enemy positioning has less role than in any other game also contributes to this.

The game's lack of enemy unit stats means that all the "gameplay" there is to genealogy is whether you attempt the objectives or not- If you do attempt them, then you are done- the stats carry you through.  It's pretty telling that this game lacks Thracia's simple enemy AI of  "If I do literal 0 damage, I won't attack" Which would cause positing problems as they could creep up in range of your other units and find someone soft to hit and given their numbers, you couldn't easily  pick them off on player phase during this maneuver. 

Other problems with the game are echoed by people, but unit balance or the clunkiness of castles/trading is not really a big deal compared to not having to use strategy in a game.marketed on adding strategy elements to  the rpg genre.

Some player units being better than other player units is a better problem to have than ALL player units being better than ALL enemy units.

Can I forgive the map design due to FE4's age? Not really considering that Front Mission and even FE3  were already released  on the same console a year earlier. 

 

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