What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Sir Gerwald of Vallora]

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'm not sure that I would consider this unpopular...

Good to hear. It is relatively unpopular amongst the people I know in person who are fans of the franchise. I'm glad the general consensus supports my side.

[Julian Solo]

Mad king archetype is very diverse in there motivation in goals and fun. Well the red emperors are just super serious roar humanity alpha fuck dragons lets conquer and commit Genocide. We have had three of them know can they be different next game please. Specially know that they have been trying to make them sympathetic since SoV.

[Troykv]

1 hour ago, Julian Solo said:

Mad king archetype is very diverse in there motivation in goals and fun. Well the red emperors are just super serious roar humanity alpha fuck dragons lets conquer and commit Genocide. We have had three of them know can they be different next game please. Specially know that they have been trying to make them sympathetic since SoV.

I think it's because the position of the Emperor is usually connected to the many traits associated with an Empire (the good and the bad), while a King is a lot more loose in what exactly it does, and you showed there are many variations of the Good and the Bad Kings thanks to a lot of early works in story.

Though, actually Hardin didn't wanted to destroy dragons, and Edelgard doesn't actually commit genocide... No, killing people in a War isn't genocide unless there is intent in killing; in the other hand the Tragedy of Duscur IS a genocide.

Quote

Genocide is intentional action to destroy a people (usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group) in whole or in part. The hybrid word "genocide" is a combination of the Greek word γένος ("race, people") and the Latin suffix -caedo ("act of killing").

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Troykv

[Icelerate]

If Kaga wrote Radiant Dawn, I think people would be saying just how great of a writer Kaga is. Want proof? Look at people praise Kaga for the writing of FE4. 

[Acacia Sgt]

If he were to not have the Blood Pact? Eh, maybe, I would've.

However, nothing will ever make me praise that part of RD's story, no matter who wrote it.

[Icelerate]

4 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

If he were to not have the Blood Pact? Eh, maybe, I would've.

However, nothing will ever make me praise that part of RD's story, no matter who wrote it.

The presence of blood pact doesn't make RD's story worse than FE4. 

[Acacia Sgt]

2 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

The presence of blood pact doesn't make RD's story worse than FE4. 

Still a stain on an otherwise good, or decent at least, story, in my opinion.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Acacia Sgt

[Icelerate]

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

Still a stain on an otherwise good story, in my opinion.

I don't disagree. 

[Julian Solo]

37 minutes ago, Troykv said:

I think it's because the position of the Emperor is usually connected to the many traits associated with an Empire (the good and the bad), while a King is a lot more loose in what exactly it does, and you showed there are many variations of the Good and the Bad Kings thanks to a lot of early works in story.

Though, actually Hardin didn't wanted to destroy dragons, and Edelgard doesn't actually commit genocide... No, killing people in a War isn't genocide unless there is intent in killing; in the other hand the Tragedy of Duscur IS a genocide.

 

That are you sure? “religious group” The ending to the route says she destroyed the church of Seiros which has two off branches as well.

[Troykv]

8 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

That are you sure? “religious group” The ending to the route says she destroyed the church of Seiros which has two off branches as well.

There is a difference between destroying an organization, and having the intent to kill the people of said organization.

Destroy an organization may or may not be bad, but that isn't genocide. And Edelgard only really made an enemy of Rhea and the Church specifically, she doesn't have anything against people that follow the faith.

 

There is an example of a organization destruction that was actually a genocide; the Sith's plan to bring Order 66 and the New Galactic Order. Darth Sidious (The Emperor) intent to destroy the Jedi Order, and he did; but he wasn't happy with just making them lose power and making them enemies of the Republic/Empire... he wants their complete annihilation, through assimilation (like the Inquisitorius) or outright killing every last one of them.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Troykv

[Jotari]

55 minutes ago, Troykv said:

I think it's because the position of the Emperor is usually connected to the many traits associated with an Empire (the good and the bad), while a King is a lot more loose in what exactly it does, and you showed there are many variations of the Good and the Bad Kings thanks to a lot of early works in story.

Though, actually Hardin didn't wanted to destroy dragons, and Edelgard doesn't actually commit genocide... No, killing people in a War isn't genocide unless there is intent in killing; in the other hand the Tragedy of Duscur IS a genocide.

 

Well she does intend to eradicate the Children of the Goddess and forcefully overthrow the entire culture of the old system. Categorically those things are genocide.

7 minutes ago, Troykv said:

There is a difference between destroying an organization, and having the intent to kill the people of said organization.

Destroy an organization may or may not be bad, but that isn't genocide. And Edelgard only really made an enemy of Rhea and the Church specifically, she doesn't have anything against people that follow the faith.

 

There is an example of a organization destruction that was actually a genocide; the Sith's plan to bring Order 66 and the New Galactic Order. Darth Sidious (The Emperor) intent to destroy the Jedi Order, and he did; but he wasn't happy with just making them lose power and making them enemies of the Republic/Empire... he wants their complete annihilation, through assimilation (like the Inquisitorius) or outright killing every last one of them.

There's really not though. Genocide doesn't mean evilly killing a load of people. It means destroying a people group. Forcing sterilisation can be genocide without killing anyone. As can the whole baby stealing "breed the savage out of the population" Stolen Generations shit that went on in Australia.

5 hours ago, Ottservia said:

It’s not that people aren’t elaborating. I just find issue with how the points are being elaborated. Like the crystal ball shattering is not contrived on it’s own because for one that’s a really small detail to get hung up about and two, that’s only a symptom of a much larger issue. Minor contrivances like that aren’t what make it terrible cause they’re inevitable. No that’s just a symptom of it. Saying a story is written to force a certain an outcome is not a good way to explain what contrived means because that’s what stories do. Certain plot points are built up to force a certain outcome. Again that’s just how cause and effect works. A better way to explain it is that the build up the story uses lacks nuance, depth, and flow. It doesn’t work because character A would never do this or there’s no reason given(explicit or implicit) for why the character took the actions that they did. Am I making sense here? 
 

like what about the story’s flow is interrupted? That’s the part that’s missing to me. Personally, I’m fine with a story going in any direction it wants just so long as it’s consistent and that it stays within the realm of believability in regards to what has already been established about the characters and world. Celica’s decision and chapter 15 do not fall under that criteria because when you break it down none of it really makes sense and isn’t believable because of the way things are established at that point.

I don't find the crystal ball shattering a minor issue. The entire plot of Conquest after its introduction hi he's on it. Once it's released introduced it is an element of the plot. It has potential and can influence things. That potential is majorly problematic for the planned endgame so the element has to be removed after its singular purpose is fulfilled to get to that ending. It's not removed because it makes for it to be removed, it's removed because it 'has' to be removed.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Jotari

[Julian Solo]

5 minutes ago, Troykv said:

There is a difference between destroying an organization, and having the intent to kill the people of said organization.

Destroy an organization may or may not be bad, but that isn't genocide. And Edelgard only really made an enemy of Rhea and the Church specifically, she doesn't have anything against people that follow the faith.

 

There is an example of a organization destruction that was actually a genocide; the Sith's plan to bring Order 66 and the New Galactic Order. Darth Sidious (The Emperor) intent to destroy the Jedi Order, and he did; but he wasn't happy with just making them lose power and making them enemies of the Republic/Empire... he wants their complete annihilation, through assimilation (like the Inquisitorius) or outright killing every last one of them.

That’s flowery meaningless words. You can believe in god and not be a member of a church. The church of Seiros is canonly destroyed. That group is gone. What ever religion comes after won’t be the same.

[Troykv]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well she does intend to eradicate the Children of the Goddess and forcefully overthrow the entire culture of the old system. Categorically those things are genocide.

Eradicate? Edelgard definitely doesn't have a good opinion of the CofG, but killing them is a last resort, not the expected outcome. 

Wait, we consider the overthrow of political systems... Genocide? I need to check my references.

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, Troykv said:

 

 

3 minutes ago, Troykv said:

Eradicate? Edelgard definitely doesn't have a good opinion of the CofG, but killing them is a last resort, not the expected outcome. 

Wait, we consider the overthrow of political systems... Genocide? I need to check my references.

Well it depends how you consider classification. A political system, no, but a cultural system, yes. And often the two things are very intertwined. Like if we went in and invaded India with the express intent of destroying their caste system I'd consider that (categorically) genocide. The noble and commoner system isn't entirely different.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Jotari

[Troykv]

10 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

That’s flowery meaningless words. You can believe in god and not be a member of a church. The church of Seiros is canonly destroyed. That group is gone. What ever religion comes after won’t be the same.

I used to believe in God, but things changed after I knew how the organizations work, maybe God is real, but the organization is a lie.

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well it depends how you consider classification. A political system, no, but a cultural system, yes. And often the two things are very intertwined. Like if we went in and invaded India with the express intent of destroying their caste system I'd consider that (categorically) genocide. The noble and commoner system isn't entirely different.

Hmm... I need to check it; thank you for bring this into question; it's a quite interesting idea to think about.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Troykv

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Troykv said:

I used to believe in God, but things changed after I knew how the organizations work.

Hmm... I need to think about it.

We're just talking semantics here (which happens a lot with genocide, look into the Irish famine sometime). Ultimately it shouldn't really matter as the content of the actions is more important than the definition of them. Like, every single playable character in the series who isn't a dancer can be called a "killer." That doesn't necessarily mean they're bad people because they're fighting wars for specific goals and reasons, they're all still categorically killers though. 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Jotari

[NinjaMonkey]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Still a stain on an otherwise good, or decent at least, story, in my opinion.

I'd like to see you come up with a believable way to get Micaiah and co. back into the story.

[Troykv]

26 minutes ago, Jotari said:

We're just talking semantics here (which happens a lot with genocide, look into the Irish famine sometime). Ultimately it shouldn't really matter as the content of the actions is more important than the definition of them. Like, every single playable character in the series who isn't a dancer can be called a "killer." That doesn't necessarily mean they're bad people because they're fighting wars for specific goals and reasons, they're all still categorically killers though. 

That is true, this people had to kill after all, and killing makes you a killer, there isn't way out of this.

 

Though, now answering the previous comment, I have a question to you... what about Rhea and the culture? ... is the world united around her only? If something happens to her Fodlan it's destroyed?

Spoiler

Though, probably Rhea herself believes this... because while the religion moves around "Sothis" in the practice is actually Seiros who serves as the ruler, judge, jury and executioner of Fodlan; and she believes the world is okay this way until the actual Sothis revives.

It's having a person in the top that wholeheartly believes only them (and well, the goddess in this case) can be at the top of religion and culture that moves the continent... is that right?... Removing them from their position is considered genocide because their decisions affected many?

 

[Etrurian emperor]

24 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

I'd like to see you come up with a believable way to get Micaiah and co. back into the story.

Its not like it couldn't be done. Daein is really racist after all and the Beorc as a whole are pretty fanatically racist. If even moderate Crimea would rather join with the Daein that's subjugating their country than protect a stray Laguz then the far more racist Daein might join the Begnion that oppressed them in order to fight the Laguz. That and Pelleas is kinda dumb so Lekain could manipulate him with less silly ways than the blood pact. 

[Acacia Sgt]

1 hour ago, NinjaMonkey said:

I'd like to see you come up with a believable way to get Micaiah and co. back into the story.

Some points were already brought; but the key of the matter is that:

Daein didn't had to be prodded too much to get dragged into the war. The game already shows us the people of Daein were still largely against Laguz; and believed the Begnion Senate when they accused Sanaki of being a False Apostle (which is true; but not the point).

The Blood Pact is such a meddling concept, it makes one forget that Daein at largely wanted to get involved. In fact, it could've been a good point to make: Micaiah and Pelleas have to deal with the fact what's best for the country isn't what the people of said country may like at first. Like, not get involved in a Beorc-Laguz war.

I have come up with a way, actually. It's in here. If the link doesn't bring up the exact post, no worries, it should be in the page, so no need to search for it for long.

[Julian Solo]

54 minutes ago, Troykv said:

That is true, this people had to kill after all, and killing makes you a killer, there isn't way out of this.

 

Though, now answering the previous comment, I have a question to you... what about Rhea and the culture? ... is the world united around her only? If something happens to her Fodlan it's destroyed?

  Hide contents

Though, probably Rhea herself believes this... because while the religion moves around "Sothis" in the practice is actually Seiros who serves as the ruler, judge, jury and executioner of Fodlan; and she believes the world is okay this way until the actual Sothis revives.

It's having a person in the top that wholeheartly believes only them (and well, the goddess in this case) can be at the top of religion and culture that moves the continent... is that right?... Removing them from their position is considered genocide because their decisions affected many?

 

Edelgard does more then remove Rhea from the church though. https://www.google.com/search?q=%231 https%3A%2F%2Fnanigma.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F187449339197%2Fcrimson-flower-ending-epilogue-japanese&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1-m 

The Church is straight up gone. That means the whole religion is gone it’s one nomination after all.

[NinjaMonkey]

11 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

it makes one forget that Daein at largely wanted to get involved.

There's absolutely no reason Daein would want to get involved in a conflict between Begnion and Gallia, especially at a time when they've only recently gotten control of their country back and are in the slow process of rebuilding said country.

[Acacia Sgt]

16 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

There's absolutely no reason Daein would want to get involved in a conflict between Begnion and Gallia, especially at a time when they've only recently gotten control of their country back and are in the slow process of rebuilding said country.

Tell that to chapter 3-6, which shows the people of Daein were all too eager.

Quote

Micaiah: Well, with a few exceptions, the soldiers are excited about hunting
    down the laguz... They've been promised a large bounty for each one they
    kill. It's certainly raised morale.

The idea of killing Laguz is one reason. Being paid for it is another. The Daein people see it as a win-win. They kill the Laguz they so hate; and get paid for it, which means they can help with the rebuilding of their country. After all, who issued those bounties? HAs to be Begnion, since Daein itself can't just hand over money they could use for reconstruction... which is moot if it's given to their own citizens, as there's no net gain for the country.

The bounty thing is one reason why I came up with the idea I linked in the post you quoted.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Acacia Sgt

[Troykv]

53 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

Edelgard does more then remove Rhea from the church though. https://www.google.com/search?q=%231 https%3A%2F%2Fnanigma.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F187449339197%2Fcrimson-flower-ending-epilogue-japanese&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1-m 

The Church is straight up gone. That means the whole religion is gone it’s one nomination after all.

Isn't that simple, the Church of Seiros is gone... it's former state. 

But the religion it still alive, even the church itself still lives after being rebuilded post-War, some endings actually mentioned it (like Manuela/Hanneman).

Edited December 20, 2019 by Troykv

[Julian Solo]

2 minutes ago, Troykv said:

Isn't that simple, the Church of Seiros is gone... it's former state. 

But the religion it still alive, even the church itself still lives after being rebuilded post-War, some endings actually mentioned it (like Manuela/Hanneman).

How do you know? That contradicts the whole plot and her saying she’s going to reopen it as an imperial Institution. The ending says the church of Seiros is gone none of the other routes say that after it’s reformed. She even emits she’s going to destroy the church in the Manuela support. Manuela says it’s fine because she’s know worships Edelgard. Even if that’s some how a church. It would not be the church of Seiros. As it’s just gone. It be this new church that directly controlled by the government. Which not a separation of church and state, but that is neither here nor there.