Jump to content

What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?


Recommended Posts

37 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Tell that to chapter 3-6, which shows the people of Daein were all too eager.

The idea of killing Laguz is one reason. Being paid for it is another. The Daein people see it as a win-win. They kill the Laguz they so hate; and get paid for it, which means they can help with the rebuilding of their country. After all, who issued those bounties? HAs to be Begnion, since Daein itself can't just hand over money they could use for reconstruction... which is moot if it's given to their own citizens, as there's no net gain for the country.

Correct me if I'm worng, but logically Daein's military should be incredibly poor. They got absolutely Clapped three years before RD, losing several of their four riders and got entirely conquered. Since they used most of their important and significant  troops in the Mad King's war, they wouldn't have many good leaders with experience. Evidently, Daein isn't exactly at a high point in its history, but rebuilding would eventually be possible. Painting a target on your back by going back to war against the Laguz is a very bad idea in many ways. Using Germany as an example, three years after WWI they did not go to try to attack other nations. It's a bit different since there was already conflict occuring in RD, but Daein still doesn't gain much by joining said conflict. Either way, Daein should lack the resources to be even a minor player in the war; it took germany twenty years to regain their military prestige; several were spent with them preparing for war. Daein wouldn't be able to scrap together much after three years under the Oppressive Begnion occupational army.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 9.6k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

4 minutes ago, Benice said:

Correct me if I'm worng, but logically Daein's military should be incredibly poor. They got absolutely Clapped three years before RD, losing several of their four riders and got entirely conquered. Since they used most of their important and significant  troops in the Mad King's war, they wouldn't have many good leaders with experience. Evidently, Daein isn't exactly at a high point in its history, but rebuilding would eventually be possible. Painting a target on your back by going back to war against the Laguz is a very bad idea in many ways. Using Germany as an example, three years after WWI they did not go to try to attack other nations. It's a bit different since there was already conflict occuring in RD, but Daein still doesn't gain much by joining said conflict. Either way, Daein should lack the resources to be even a minor player in the war; it took germany twenty years to regain their military prestige; several were spent with them preparing for war. Daein wouldn't be able to scrap together much after three years under the Oppressive Begnion occupational army.

Being a bad idea doesn't mean it won't be followed on. That's the point. The game itself showed Daein quite eager to jump in even if it wasn't in their best interest. However, it also shoves the Blood Pact too much on you to make you notice that.

Well, the game itself showed Daein still giving the Alliance a hard time, despite the state they should be. On the other hand, being Begnion's ally, it's not out of reason to think Begnion were helping them, resources wise. Which, again, is why I came up with an alternate BloodPact-less take that focuses more on Begnion paying reparations to Daein, then using it as a carrot-and-stick approach on Daein when the war begins.

Also, it's not quite of a fair comparison. Daein isn't Germany. Tellius's situation post-MKW isn't like Europe post-WWI to think Daein had to need as much time as Germany to recover.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well she does intend to eradicate the Children of the Goddess and forcefully overthrow the entire culture of the old system. Categorically those things are genocide.

Not really. She literally actually states in a classroom question of what she should do if Rhea surrenders, and the option she likes is to simply strip her of her power. And even in the other routes, when she oughta be at her worst, she still spares Rhea and doesn't kill her.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

There's really not though. Genocide doesn't mean evilly killing a load of people. It means destroying a people group. Forcing sterilisation can be genocide without killing anyone. As can the whole baby stealing "breed the savage out of the population" Stolen Generations shit that went on in Australia.

Exactly what does anything you just described be genocide with the Children of the Goddess? Edelgard simply doesn't want them in power anymore after how they've caused so much problems for humanity in their incompetent ruling in the past 1200 years.

3 hours ago, Julian Solo said:

That’s flowery meaningless words. You can believe in god and not be a member of a church. The church of Seiros is canonly destroyed. That group is gone. What ever religion comes after won’t be the same.

And the Empire rebuilds in in various endings in Crimson Flower. 

Hell, if you get Ferdinand and Mercedes's C support in Part 2 of Crimson Flower, Ferdinand states that even Edelgard, who is against the Church, has no problems with people still clinging to their religion itself. 

Simply put, as Mercedes and Marianne have done in Crimson Flower, they simply separate the religion from the institution.

Edited by omegaxis1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

How do you know? That contradicts the whole plot and her saying she’s going to reopen it as an imperial Institution. The ending says the church of Seiros is gone none of the other routes say that after it’s reformed. She even emits she’s going to destroy the church in the Manuela support. Manuela says it’s fine because she’s know worships Edelgard. Even if that’s some how a church. It would not be the church of Seiros. As it’s just gone. It be this new church that directly controlled by the government. Which not a separation of church and state, but that is neither here nor there.

Because I ask about it to people that know japanese, and it actually knew about the translation you gave, in context the ending actually imply the end of their story (the Church as we knew it before ended, and reformed into a new one), not that they outright disappeared from history.

You can ask him in Reddit if you want, I can give you a link to his profile.

Wait what... Did you actually read the supports? No no, there is something very wrong here. Why you believe Manuela worships Edelgard?

Edited by Troykv
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

I'd like to see you come up with a believable way to get Micaiah and co. back into the story.

How about...

Following the expulsion of the Begnion Occupational Army from Daein, Empress Sanaki commits to providing monetary reparations for the country's recovery.

This causes the Senators further anger, as part of the funding comes from their fortunes - particularly those of Duke Numida. Thus driving them to commit the secret coup against Sanaki.

With the Apostle out of the way, Lekain informs now-king Pelleas that he'll be disbursing the funds from now on. He's happy to continue the funding - but first, he'd like Pelleas to do them a favor (sorry, I couldn't resist).

The continuation of funding is now contingent on Daein joining the war on the side of the Begnion Senate. If he turns them down, his still-recovering country will be unable to keep rebuilding, and some will likely starve.

Pelleas chooses to kowtow to Lekain's requests, believing it is the only way for his people to survive. And Micaiah, as the Daein Army's general is forced back into the fray.

There we go. Same general story beats, no blood-pact nonsense, and we finally escape from the question of "wait, why was Izuka in cahoots with the Senate anyway?"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

How about...

Following the expulsion of the Begnion Occupational Army from Daein, Empress Sanaki commits to providing monetary reparations for the country's recovery.

This causes the Senators further anger, as part of the funding comes from their fortunes - particularly those of Duke Numida. Thus driving them to commit the secret coup against Sanaki.

With the Apostle out of the way, Lekain informs now-king Pelleas that he'll be disbursing the funds from now on. He's happy to continue the funding - but first, he'd like Pelleas to do them a favor (sorry, I couldn't resist).

The continuation of funding is now contingent on Daein joining the war on the side of the Begnion Senate. If he turns them down, his still-recovering country will be unable to keep rebuilding, and some will likely starve.

Pelleas chooses to kowtow to Lekain's requests, believing it is the only way for his people to survive. And Micaiah, as the Daein Army's general is forced back into the fray.

There we go. Same general story beats, no blood-pact nonsense, and we finally escape from the question of "wait, why was Izuka in cahoots with the Senate anyway?"

Another way to spin this would be the Begnion Senate threatening Daein with a second invasion that would end with their total annihilation if they don't help fight the Laguz. Daein was only able to barely defeat an occupation army, and vs the full army of Begnion, they wouldn't stand a chance.  With their sovereignty on the line and the nation already very pro-human in the conflict, Micaiah is forced to swallow the poison and accept that this is the only way for Daein to have a future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Troykv said:

Because I ask about it to people that know japanese, and it actually knew about the translation you gave, in context the ending actually imply the end of their story (the Church as we knew it before ended, and reformed into a new one), not that they outright disappeared from history.

You can ask him in Reddit if you want, I can give you a link to his profile.

Wait what... Did you actually read the supports? No no, there is something very wrong here. Why you believe Manuela worships Edelgard?

That doesn’t mean the church wasn’t destroyed. Or changed into completely new religion. Again your mistaken religion for faith. That’s not the same thing at all. Edelgard literally confesses to destroying her emotional and spiritual support in the church of Seiros. Then Manuela says she doesn’t need the goddess anymore she has Edelgard. The new “church” if it even is one is controlled by the government which is the emperor anyway Edelgards not going to let people worship Seiros after her whole thing is getting rid of the children of the goddess.

Edited by Julian Solo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:
 

Not really. She literally actually states in a classroom question of what she should do if Rhea surrenders, and the option she likes is to simply strip her of her power. And even in the other routes, when she oughta be at her worst, she still spares Rhea and doesn't kill her.

Exactly what does anything you just described be genocide with the Children of the Goddess? Edelgard simply doesn't want them in power anymore after how they've caused so much problems for humanity in their incompetent ruling in the past 1200 years.

And the Empire rebuilds in in various endings in Crimson Flower. 

Hell, if you get Ferdinand and Mercedes's C support in Part 2 of Crimson Flower, Ferdinand states that even Edelgard, who is against the Church, has no problems with people still clinging to their religion itself. 

Simply put, as Mercedes and Marianne have done in Crimson Flower, they simply separate the religion from the institution.

No they didn’t the new church is stated to be directly under government control what are you talking about. Again religion and faith or not the same thing. Why she keeps Rhea alive in other routes is unknown it’s never explained but since Nemesis smelled her blood to awaken and they need dragon blood for demonic beasts. Her being alive is a benefit to both Edelgard and Thales. Because they can use her blood. She literally says before the final battle the children of the goddess need to be destroyed. Then five minutes later she pretends to offer her to surrender to see what she do. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

That doesn’t mean the church wasn’t destroyed. Or changed into completely new religion. Again your mistaken religion for faith. That’s not the same thing at all. Edelgard literally confesses to destroying her emotional and spiritual support in the church of Seiros. Then Manuela says she doesn’t need the goddess anymore she has Edelgard.

I'm sorry, but at this point, it sounds like you're making up headcanons. Or maybe you actually believe what Dimitri says to Edelgard when he accuses her of wishing to become the goddess? 

Read what Manuela actually says:

Quote

Manuela: Don't worry yourself about that, Edelgard. People are always weaker than you think, but never as weak as you expect. The goddess is our silent foundation. She watches over our every step, but never gets directly involved. You, on the other hand, want to support us with your own flesh and blood. To push us forward toward a better future.

She isn't comparing Edelgard to the goddess at all. She is contrasting how the goddess is the metaphysical aspect that helps people spiritually, while Edelgard is the actual physical human that helps them through the real world.

If anything, she is explicitly stating that Edelgard is a human, not a goddess.

And rebuilding the Church does not in any way mean that it's now some imperialistic thing. If anything, the Church is restored, and people have their religion, but she got rid of the political and military aspect, basically making the Church be just a religious institute, and not a political one as it has been for ages now. 

Not to mention, Ferdinand explicitly states in his C support with Mercedes post-TS in CF that Edelgard lets people still follow their religion, despite being against the Church.

That's cause Edelgard was never against the religion, only the institution. Because religion = church.

Hence why characters like Mercedes and Marianne, devout believers, can follow Edelgard. They still keep their faith, but they believe the Church is wrong. 

11 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

No they didn’t the new church is stated to be directly under government control what are you talking about. Again religion and faith or not the same thing. Why she keeps Rhea alive in other routes is unknown it’s never explained but since Nemesis smelled her blood to awaken and they need dragon blood for demonic beasts. Her being alive is a benefit to both Edelgard and Thales. Because they can use her blood. She literally says before the final battle the children of the goddess need to be destroyed. Then five minutes later she pretends to offer her to surrender to see what she do. 

Under the supervision of the Empire, yes. It was indicated that. But where does that mean that she changed the entire religion to something else? Like, really, where does anything indicate that? 

Nemesis smelled her blood to awaken? What? Dude, I'm getting really confused by what you're saying now. Hell, nothing shows that Edelgard used Rhea for experiments. Not to mention, the Agarthans would have killed Rhea, given that they heavily indicate that she is their more hated enemy. And once again, she doesn't care to actually kill all the Children of the Goddess. She literally asks Byleth what to do with Rhea if she surrenders and she prefers to simply strip her of her power. Not to mention, she's fine with Seteth and Flayn being spared after saying to Byleth that they will leave. 

And at the end of CF, Edelgard gives Rhea a chance to surrender, and Rhea responds by setting Fhirdiad on fire. 

Edited by omegaxis1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/17/2019 at 6:16 PM, Kain the mediocre knight said:

I didn't type (snipe)... Did I?

 

Anyway. Ehhhh, it's just an opinion. If you think that's edgy then you haven't seen parts of reddit.

I don't have a glowing opinion of reddit.  Thanks for illustrating why.

Edited by eclipse
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I'm sorry, but at this point, it sounds like you're making up headcanons. Or maybe you actually believe what Dimitri says to Edelgard when he accuses her of wishing to become the goddess? 

Read what Manuela actually says:

She isn't comparing Edelgard to the goddess at all. She is comparing how the goddess is the metaphysical aspect that helps people spiritually, while Edelgard is the actual physical human that helps them through the real world.

If anything, she is explicitly stating that Edelgard is a human, not a goddess.

And rebuilding the Church does not in any way mean that it's now some imperialistic thing. If anything, the Church is restored, and people have their religion, but she got rid of the political and military aspect, basically making the Church be just a religious institute, and not a political one as it has been for ages now. 

Not to mention, Ferdinand explicitly states in his C support with Mercedes post-TS in CF that Edelgard lets people still follow their religion, despite being against the Church.

That's cause Edelgard was never against the religion, only the institution. Because religion = church.

Hence why characters like Mercedes and Marianne, devout believers, can follow Edelgard. They still keep their faith, but they believe the Church is wrong. 

Under the supervision of the Empire, yes. It was indicated that. But where does that mean that she changed the entire religion to something else? Like, really, where does anything indicate that? 

Nemesis smelled her blood to awaken? What? Dude, I'm getting really confused by what you're saying now. Hell, nothing shows that Edelgard used Rhea for experiments. Not to mention, the Agarthans would have killed Rhea, given that they heavily indicate that she is their more hated enemy. And once again, she doesn't care to actually kill all the Children of the Goddess. She literally asks Byleth what to do with Rhea if she surrenders and she prefers to simply strip her of her power. Not to mention, she's fine with Seteth and Flayn being spared after saying to Byleth that they will leave. 

And at the end of CF, Edelgard gives Rhea a chance to surrender, and Rhea responds by setting Fhirdiad on fire. 

Seteth also says Edelgard wants to be goddess. Her ending Mural has her looking like a goddess. You do know the Caesar’s where defied right and the Japanese emperors? She clearly doesn’t want to be goddess but people literally start seeing her as a guiding figure. So your cherry picking quotes from the support and ignoring the points where it Edelgard says herself she’s going to destroy the church cool. Also your completely wrong the fact Edelgard has the new church with out Rhea or the saints under government control means 100% didn’t separate church and state. Again know how church’s and religions works. Faith is not religion Ferdinand is not Edelgard. Edelgard is secretive just like Rhea.

Edited by Julian Solo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

Seteth also says Edelgard wants to be goddess. Her ending Mural has her looking like a goddess. You do know the Caesar’s where defied right and the Japanese emperors? She clearly doesn’t want to be goddess but people literally start seeing her as a guiding figure. So your cherry picking quotes from the support and ignoring the points where it Edelgard says herself she’s going to destroy the church cool. Also your completely wrong the fact Edelgard has the new church with out Rhea or the saints under government control means 100% didn’t separate church and state. 

Seteth accuses this. These are "demonizing" tactics. Things used to simply make the other party look bad. But Seteth also accuses Edelgard of basically usurping her father from the throne, and anyone that knows the coronation scene knows that's a load of BS. In other words, Seteth is just lying. Straight up lying. Like he has been in every aspect of the religion.

Dude, you wanna see how many murals portrays people like that IRL? 

You're accusing me of cherrypicking quotes, but here you are doing literally just that? Cherrypicking Seteth's demonizing language and lies, and a mural that depicts her in a stance that is not as "godlike" as you try and think? Actually, look BEHIND Edelgard. Is that not an Angel I see there? If anything, it seems almost like Edelgard isn't the goddess, but is "blessed" by the goddess in her goals. Good way to interpret how Byleth, the "Wings of the Hegemon", being the one that helped her. 

Edelgard wants to destroy the Church. The institution. Like, how are you ignoring this? Are you really this insistent on ignoring how Edelgard told Rhea to her face that she had made an enemy of the "Church, not the faith"? Like, come on, man. It's right there.

The Church no longer has a military. No longer has any political power. It's ultimately now just a religious institution. So... yes. She DID separate the Church from the state. Like how we did IRL, because we learned that religion should not actually get involved with politics.

I think you need to learn what the definition of religion is. Religion, by definition, requires belief. Meaning faith. Institution is not the faith. And funny how now you try to insist that Ferdinand's words mean nothing. So now you are insistent on ignoring direct dialogue from the game from a character that has stood with Edelgard and actually got to see her side, but would believe characters like Dimitri and Seteth who make outright false accusations without ever coming to know or understand Edelgard? Really?

Edited by omegaxis1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Seteth accuses this. These are "demonizing" tactics. Things used to simply make the other party look bad. But Seteth also accuses Edelgard of basically usurping her father from the throne, and anyone that knows the coronation scene knows that's a load of BS. In other words, Seteth is just lying. Straight up lying. Like he has been in every aspect of the religion.

Dude, you wanna see how many murals portrays people like that IRL? 

You're accusing me of cherrypicking quotes, but here you are doing literally just that? Cherrypicking Seteth's demonizing language and lies, and a mural that depicts her in a stance that is not as "godlike" as you try and think? Actually, look BEHIND Edelgard. Is that not an Angel I see there? If anything, it seems almost like Edelgard isn't the goddess, but is "blessed" by the goddess in her goals. Good way to interpret how Byleth, the "Wings of Hagemon", being the one that helped her. 

Edelgard wants to destroy the Church. The institution. Like, how are you ignoring this? Are you really this insistent on ignoring how Edelgard told Rhea to her face that she had made an enemy of the "Church, not the faith"? Like, come on, man. It's right there.

The Church no longer has a military. No longer has any political power. It's ultimately now just a religious institution. So... yes. She DID separate the Church from the state. Like how we did IRL, because we learned that religion should not actually get involved with politics.

Seteth wasn’t lying Seteth was wrong because he just got attacked and betrayed. No one from the church was at the ceremony and the former emperor dies. Byleth doesn’t say anything. Saying that’s a lie is a complete joke and indigenous. You have no point. So you emit she destroyed the only church and religion Fodlan good. Do you know how Protestantism was formed? The king fought the pope.  

She 100% did not separate church and state lol.  

“Manuela and Hanneman (Crimson Flower)

After the war, Hanneman and Manuela held a grand wedding ceremony, to which all of their many students were invited. Later, after the church was transformed and rehabilitated under the super vision of the Empire, the Officers Academy finally reopened, with a renewed focus on accepting students regardless of status and offering classes on a wider variety of practical subjects. Hanneman and Manuela returned to work as teachers, almost as if nothing had changed, and filled the halls with their banter in the way only married couples can.”
 

“Linhardt and Bernadetta (Crimson Flower)

Linhardt and Bernadetta caused quite the stir after the war when they abandoned their inherited titles and eloped to Garreg Mach. Returning to the monastery, where they were always most comfortable, the couple lived peaceful lives away from the hassle of politics. When the Empire's efforts to restore the church were complete, the Officers Academy reopened, and two eccentric individuals took up professorships there. One was perpetually asleep, or absorbed in absentminded study; the other refused to show herself at all unless it was time to give a lecture.”
 
The government controlling the church is the polar opposite of separating church and state. The other routes version of Bernie and Linhardt don’t mention a government involvement at all.
Edited by Julian Solo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Julian Solo said:

Seteth wasn’t lie Seteth was wrong because he just got attacked and betrayed. Saying that’s a lie is a complete joke and indigenous. You have no point. So you emit she destroyed the only church and religion Fodlan good. Do you know how Protestantism was formed? The king fought the pope.  

Seteth accused Edelgard of wanting to become a goddess and said that Edelgard stole the throne from her father. Both of which are downright false. Says this even in Silver Snow even if Byleth went to the coronation. You acted like his words were actually true in your earlier comment, acting as if it is proof cause Dimitri claims it in another route. Neither of these two knew Edelgard or the type of person she was. 

Hell, Seteth even admits that he might have been wrong about Edelgard in Silver Snow. 

1 minute ago, Julian Solo said:
The government controlling the church is the polar opposite of separating church and state. The other routes version of Bernie and Linhardt don’t mention a government involvement at all.

Dude, maybe cause the other routes don't have the Chruch be defeated and needing to be restored. The Church had abused its authority and power for countless years. 

The Church is NOT the religion. I don't know why you cannot seem to comprehend that, despite how many times it's been pointed out to you. Do you know what I even mean when I say "separated the Church from the state"? I mean that a religious institution no longer has political or military power. The Church has had it and does still have if in Part 1 and every non-CF route ending. In CF endings, those are gone. 

Manuela shows belief in the goddess. Marianne shows belief in the goddess. Mercedes shows belief in the goddess. Legit nothing in those endings actually says that the Empire REPLACED the religion at all. It simply restored the institution that practices the religion, but simply no longer allowed to have political authority like it did in the past. 

Like, seriously, more than half your accusations are missing a LOT of context or just making up headcanons to fill your own beliefs, despite how I bring about actual evidence that prove otherwise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Seteth accused Edelgard of wanting to become a goddess and said that Edelgard stole the throne from her father. Both of which are downright false. Says this even in Silver Snow even if Byleth went to the coronation. You acted like his words were actually true in your earlier comment, acting as if it is proof cause Dimitri claims it in another route. Neither of these two knew Edelgard or the type of person she was. 

Hell, Seteth even admits that he might have been wrong about Edelgard in Silver Snow. 

Dude, maybe cause the other routes don't have the Chruch be defeated and needing to be restored. The Church had abused its authority and power for countless years. 

The Church is NOT the religion. I don't know why you cannot seem to comprehend that, despite how many times it's been pointed out to you. Do you know what I even mean when I say "separated the Church from the state"? I mean that a religious institution no longer has political or military power. The Church has had it and does still have if in Part 1 and every non-CF route ending. In CF endings, those are gone. 

Manuela shows belief in the goddess. Marianne shows belief in the goddess. Mercedes shows belief in the goddess. Legit nothing in those endings actually says that the Empire REPLACED the religion at all. It simply restored the institution that practices the religion, but simply no longer allowed to have political authority like it did in the past. 

Like, seriously, more than half your accusations are missing a LOT of context or just making up headcanons to fill your own beliefs, despite how I bring about actual evidence that prove otherwise.

Again your mistaken the belief in god as the believe in a religion. That is what faith is the believe in a god. That’s what I even just said dude Seteth was wrong and Byleth didn’t correct him. That’s not lying. You have not brought up any evidence you directly lied about the Manuela supports and all the times in CF she says the church of Seiros must be destroyed. Also look up the definition of separation of church and state lol. It means the government and church have nothing to do with each other. Look up what a church is. In context when the game and Edelgard says she wants to destroy the church of Seiros she means the religion of Seiros which is 100% did in CF lol. Protestantism is a separate church and culture from Catholicism for example. So what Edelgard did falls under genocide. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

I don't find the crystal ball shattering a minor issue. The entire plot of Conquest after its introduction hi he's on it. Once it's released introduced it is an element of the plot. It has potential and can influence things. That potential is majorly problematic for the planned endgame so the element has to be removed after its singular purpose is fulfilled to get to that ending. It's not removed because it makes for it to be removed, it's removed because it 'has' to be removed.

Once again you’re phrasing is too broad. Also you just seem so hyper fixated on this singular tree that you can’t see the forest. I won’t deny that the crystal ball itself is a contrived because it comes out of no where with little explanation on what it is or where it came from. The fact that it breaks is not a contrivance simply because it’s just basic cause and effect. Stories should be structured in a way that between every plot point there is a ‘but’ or a ‘therefore’ and the crystal ball breaking after a single use fits that criteria. A crystal ball that reveals the truth but after a single use it breaks. That on its own is not contrived. There are plenty of other stories that use similar tropes for the exact same purpose. The fact that the ball breaks is not the issue. The fact that it exists in the first place with zero explanation is. 
 

To say the fact that it breaks is contrived is like saying that a character not being able to use a specific move because the author deemed it to OP so they gave it serious drawbacks is contrived. No it isn’t. It’s basic cause and effect which is how stories work. Saying anything like that is contrived is trying to argue a point that hinges on suspension of disbelief which is an invalid argument because that is 100% subjective. You’re trying to say that because in a meta sense the author made a plot point to get the story to go a certain way, then it is contrived. No, I cannot agree with that cause you can say that about literally any plot point in all of fiction. Crystal balls can break so in that sense it breaking like that is believable to me. Now if the plot point had been more like “Crystal ball then random assassin attack then it breaks” in that sense yeah I could view that as contrived cause the assassin attack comes out of nowhere. Like again I don’t know how else to explain my point here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Troykv said:

Isn't that simple, the Church of Seiros is gone... it's former state. 

But the religion it still alive, even the church itself still lives after being rebuilded post-War, some endings actually mentioned it (like Manuela/Hanneman).

That's the equivalent of destroying the catholic church and saying Christianity still exists.

4 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Another way to spin this would be the Begnion Senate threatening Daein with a second invasion that would end with their total annihilation if they don't help fight the Laguz. Daein was only able to barely defeat an occupation army, and vs the full army of Begnion, they wouldn't stand a chance.  With their sovereignty on the line and the nation already very pro-human in the conflict, Micaiah is forced to swallow the poison and accept that this is the only way for Daein to have a future.

That's how I would have went about it. Although, less a second invasion and more never getting true independence in the first place. Begnion let's Pelleas sit on the throne, but most of the institutions are still run by Begnion personal and Pelleas has treaty vowing he will assist Begnion in future wars. Basically instead of World War II Germany, turn it into World War I Canada. In this scenario we could also highlight Pelleas as a weak king, as a stronger one would be able to give the finger to Begnion.

2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Once again you’re phrasing is too broad. Also you just seem so hyper fixated on this singular tree that you can’t see the forest. I won’t deny that the crystal ball itself is a contrived because it comes out of no where with little explanation on what it is or where it came from. The fact that it breaks is not a contrivance simply because it’s just basic cause and effect. Stories should be structured in a way that between every plot point there is a ‘but’ or a ‘therefore’ and the crystal ball breaking after a single use fits that criteria. A crystal ball that reveals the truth but after a single use it breaks. That on its own is not contrived. There are plenty of other stories that use similar tropes for the exact same purpose. The fact that the ball breaks is not the issue. The fact that it exists in the first place with zero explanation is. 

I see it as the opposite. If it didn't break then it wouldn't be a contrivance at all (well, depending on how it's handled). It'd simply be an element of the plot. Something that exists and can be used in future scenarios. A piece on the board. The fact that it gets zero explanation as to what it is is crappy world building, but not exactly a contrivance. The orb can work, it just needs to be worked into the story. The orb breaking, simply can't, as the only reason it breaks is to stop the Nohr siblings from finding anything out (unless it has already been worked into the narrative significantly earlier in the story).

Now if the orb came out of nowhere with zero explanation at a crucial moment in time when a character is in a jam and has no conceivable way out and then suddenly this magic device comes out of nowhere and provides an out for them, then that's contrived. But so far as I remember that's not the case. Going to Valla just happens at, basically, a random point. If it had been shifted ahead or back a few chapters there'd be little consequence. 

2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

To say the fact that it breaks is contrived is like saying that a character not being able to use a specific move because the author deemed it to OP so they gave it serious drawbacks is contrived. No it isn’t. It’s basic cause and effect which is how stories work. Saying anything like that is contrived is trying to argue a point that hinges on suspension of disbelief which is an invalid argument because that is 100% subjective. You’re trying to say that because in a meta sense the author made a plot point to get the story to go a certain way, then it is contrived. No, I cannot agree with that cause you can say that about literally any plot point in all of fiction. Crystal balls can break so in that sense it breaking like that is believable to me. Now if the plot point had been more like “Crystal ball then random assassin attack then it breaks” in that sense yeah I could view that as contrived cause the assassin attack comes out of nowhere. Like again I don’t know how else to explain my point here.

It's no more a universal truth to say crystal balls can break than it is to say ninjas can break crystal balls. I see zero difference between assassins coming out of nowhere and breaking the ball and the ball just breaking on its own for no reason. The result on the narrative is identical. If anything the assassins breaking it is less (though not not) contrived as there's actual character agency at work.

Edited by Jotari
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Ottservia said:

It’s not that people aren’t elaborating. I just find issue with how the points are being elaborated. Like the crystal ball shattering is not contrived on it’s own because for one that’s a really small detail to get hung up about and two, that’s only a symptom of a much larger issue. Minor contrivances like that aren’t what make it terrible cause they’re inevitable. No that’s just a symptom of it. Saying a story is written to force a certain an outcome is not a good way to explain what contrived means because that’s what stories do. Certain plot points are built up to force a certain outcome. Again that’s just how cause and effect works. A better way to explain it is that the build up the story uses lacks nuance, depth, and flow. It doesn’t work because character A would never do this or there’s no reason given(explicit or implicit) for why the character took the actions that they did. Am I making sense here? 
 

like what about the story’s flow is interrupted? That’s the part that’s missing to me. Personally, I’m fine with a story going in any direction it wants just so long as it’s consistent and that it stays within the realm of believability in regards to what has already been established about the characters and world. Celica’s decision and chapter 15 do not fall under that criteria because when you break it down none of it really makes sense and isn’t believable because of the way things are established at that point.

Okay, let's talk about some things in relation to the crystal ball. In Conquest chapter 15, Azura and Corrin return from Valla, and Azura convinced of Corrin's good intentions decides to tell him the secret behind Garon. She tells him this with the intention of stopping Garon and for that, she'll need more than just Corrin's power. Azura understands how the crystal ball works, detailing who can use it and she isn't surprised at all when it breaks. If crystal balls shattering is one of their properties, that's just how the story is written, but how do we explain the behavior of the characters?

Invading Hoshido is a morally abhorrent action so Corrin should be doing everything in his power to find a more peaceful solution. Why doesn't he ask Azura about providing another crystal ball? Why does he immediately accept the Throne Ploy? If Azura knew the crystal ball would shatter, why didn't she wait until the Nohr siblings were all gathered to use it? The only answer I can offer is that Corrin is an idiot who goes along with anything he's told and that Azura wanted the invasion to happen, because she didn't take the obvious steps to avoid what should be their last resort. The whole scenario is contrived and the crystal ball conveniently shattering is just the tip of the iceberg for how forced the invasion is. 

Edited by NekoKnight
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Julian Solo said:

Again your mistaken the belief in god as the believe in a religion. That is what faith is the believe in a god. That’s what I even just said dude Seteth was wrong and Byleth didn’t correct him. That’s not lying. You have not brought up any evidence you directly lied about the Manuela supports and all the times in CF she says the church of Seiros must be destroyed. Also look up the definition of separation of church and state lol. It means the government and church have nothing to do with each other. Look up what a church is. In context when the game and Edelgard says she wants to destroy the church of Seiros she means the religion of Seiros which is 100% did in CF lol. Protestantism is a separate church and culture from Catholicism for example. So what Edelgard did falls under genocide. 

How did I directly lie? You state that Manuela worshipped Edelgard, which is downright false. If anything, the liar here is you. Manuela stated that the goddess is the silent watcher that supports people spiritually. Edelgard is not some silent watcher. Edelgard is a human being, of flesh and blood, who supports people directly. 

Also, there's you, once again trying to think that the institution is the religion itself. Which again, no it isn't. She directly stated to Rhea that she made an enemy of the church, not the faith. The faith is the religion, the belief in the goddess. No one is forced to leave their religion. Mercedes is still a devout believer of the religion, but she believes the Church is doing the wrong thing when she sides with Edelgard. Does she claim that Edelgard is the goddess? Does Marianne? Nope. 

The Empire rebuilding the Church is not imposing some imperialistic new religious doctrine. That is an outright lie and you know it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Okay, let's talk about some things in relation to the crystal ball. In Conquest chapter 15, Azura and Corrin return from Valla, and Azura convinced of Corrin's good intentions decides to tell him the secret behind Garon. She tells him this with the intention of stopping Garon and for that, she'll need more than just Corrin's power. Azura understands how the crystal ball works, detailing who can use it and she isn't surprised at all when it breaks. If crystal balls shattering is one of their properties, that's just how the story is written, but how do we explain the behavior of the characters?

Invading Hoshido is a morally abhorrent action so Corrin should be doing everything in his power to find a more peaceful solution. Why doesn't he ask Azura about providing another crystal ball? Why does he immediately accept the Throne Ploy? If Azura knew the crystal ball would shatter, why didn't she wait until the Nohr siblings were all gathered to use it? The only answer I can offer is that Corrin is an idiot who goes along with anything he's told and that Azura wanted the invasion to happen, because she didn't take the obvious steps to avoid what should be their last resort. The whole scenario is contrived and the crystal ball conveniently shattering is just the tip of the iceberg for how forced the invasion is. 

I did say the Crystal ball itself is a massive contrivance right? It’s also a huge plot hole as it reveals inconsistencies in Azura and Corrin’s character. I’m not defending that plot point. I’m just saying the fact that it breaks is not a problem. The fact that it exists in the first place with little to no explanation or fanfare is a problem though and a major one at that.

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Now if the orb came out of nowhere with zero explanation at a crucial moment in time when a character is in a jam and has no conceivable way out and then suddenly this magic device comes out of nowhere and provides an out for them, then that's contrived. But so far as I remember that's not the case. Going to Valla just happens at, basically, a random point. If it had been shifted ahead or back a few chapters there'd be little consequence. 

Well if that’s contrived then pretty much every battle shounen like MHA, Naruto, One Piece, and Bleach are stories entirely built on contrivance because that’s one of the biggest corner stones of those stories. The mid-battle power up where a character unlocks a new power in response to being beaten down by the villain and under going character growth. Those stories hinge on those kinds of moments to develop their characters and hit on their emotional beats. I honestly would not say that’s contrived so long as there’s at least a thematic reason behind it. If an explanation exists even retroactively then I don’t really see much of an issue. 

It’s also like saying Celica’s revival by the hands of Mila through Falchion is contrived because it’s a magical ability that gives her an out when there was no other out besides death and we can’t have that. Thing is though I find that moment to be the least contrived thing in that story and frankly there are bigger problems to complain about.

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

see it as the opposite. If it didn't break then it wouldn't be a contrivance at all (well, depending on how it's handled). It'd simply be an element of the plot. Something that exists and can be used in future scenarios. A piece on the board. The fact that it gets zero explanation as to what it is is crappy world building, but not exactly a contrivance. The orb can work, it just needs to be worked into the story. The orb breaking, simply can't, as the only reason it breaks is to stop the Nohr siblings from finding anything out (unless it has already been worked into the narrative significantly earlier in the story).

To be somewhat fair the crystal ball is actually brought up in birthright where she does give it to Leo after they defeat him. He uses it to see the truth. What happens to it after is up for debate. I feel like the only reason she brought Leo up in conquest was because of that moment. The thing about it not breaking though is that what happens after that? There needs to be a “but” in there somewhere after all. The only reason it’s contrived is because it’s a plot element that’s randomly thrown into the plot to force it in a direction it didn’t need to go in otherwise. The story could’ve taken an entirely different turn had Azura not randomly decided to withhold information and that is a contrivance.

Again to say that it’s contrived for the meta reason you gave is like saying All Might giving his powers to Deku only after having him train his body is contrived because otherwise he would just be OP out of nowhere without having to work for it so the author came up with an explanation so he ‘had’ to work for it. And I doubt most people are going to complain about that moment as a contrivance. I’m not denying the crystal ball is contrived but the reasons you keep giving seem a little weak to me. 

Edited by Ottservia
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

How did I directly lie? You state that Manuela worshipped Edelgard, which is downright false. If anything, the liar here is you. Manuela stated that the goddess is the silent watcher that supports people spiritually. Edelgard is not some silent watcher. Edelgard is a human being, of flesh and blood, who supports people directly. 

Also, there's you, once again trying to think that the institution is the religion itself. Which again, no it isn't. She directly stated to Rhea that she made an enemy of the church, not the faith. The faith is the religion, the belief in the goddess. No one is forced to leave their religion. Mercedes is still a devout believer of the religion, but she believes the Church is doing the wrong thing when she sides with Edelgard. Does she claim that Edelgard is the goddess? Does Marianne? Nope. 

The Empire rebuilding the Church is not imposing some imperialistic new religious doctrine. That is an outright lie and you know it. 

Again faith=/= don’t equal religion. Believe in a god does not equal a religion. You are very confused. Also Edelgard is the proven most unreliable narrator in the entire game anyway. Here whole history lesson was false. Rhea controlling the continent is also false as the empire kicked out the church 100 years ago. The empires regent doesn’t even donate anymore. Like I said being against the church of Seiros which was even stated to be destroyed in the main epilogue. Is not the same as being against people believing in god. Edelgard through out the CF even warned the people of Fodlan that the saints where evil dragons remember? In her letters. The church in those paired endings is stated to be controlled by the government. You’re missing context and trying water down what Edelgard actually did to the religion even though the epilogue directly says she destroyed it and then restored a new one under the governments direct control.

 

 5 minutes is the support and Edelgard repeats multiple times how she’s going to “crush the church of Seiros completely”. Manuela at the end even says Edelgard gives her emotional support just like the goddess. The ending mural adds to this seeing how the people see her as a goddess. Plus all the parallels to her and saint Seiros. Once again am not saying she actually wanted this or she did become a goddess an saying people start to see her as one. That’s how Emperors work anyway.

Edited by Julian Solo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

Again faith=/= don’t equal religion. Believe in a god does not equal a religion. You are very confused. Also Edelgard is the proven most unreliable narrator in the entire game anyway. Here whole history lesson was false. Rhea controlling the continent is also false as the empire kicked out the church 100 years ago. The empires regent doesn’t even donate anymore. Like I said being against the church of Seiros which was even stated to be destroyed in the main epilogue. Is not the same as being against people believing in god. Edelgard through out the CF even warned the people of Fodlan that the saints where evil dragons remember? In her letters. The church in those paired endings is stated to be controlled by the government. You’re missing context and trying water down what Edelgard actually did to the religion even though the epilogue directly says she destroyed it and then restored a new one under the governments direct control.

...

I'm sorry, what?

Faith and belief is NOT religion?

Read the literal definition!

Quote

religion (noun): the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

Dude, if anyone is confused here, it's you. 

The Empire did NOT kick out the Church 100 years ago. You're referring to the Southern Church insurrection yes? That event led the Empire to retain relations to the Central Church, albeit strained.

Quote

You must know about the Western Church in the Kingdom, and the Eastern Church in the Alliance. But you probably don't know about the Southern Church. It used to exist a long time ago, in Enbarr. About 120 years ago, they had a massive insurrection. The bishop of the Southern Church who participated was exiled by the furious emperor. After that, the Empire reconciled with the Central Church, but relations continued to be strained. That history has probably laid the groundwork for the current antagonism among the Empire's citizens.

The Empire still had relations to the Church. Arundel literally send huge sums of donations to the Church yearly before he was replaced by Thales (so that already debunks your claim that the Empire kicked the Church itself out 100 years ago). As someone that played Blue Lions, how did you NOT know that since that was the route where you learn that little information? 

It's stated in Edelgard's route that the war against the Church caused a lot of issues in the people that were believers:

Quote

Soldier: By making an enemy of the church, disorder is running rampant among the populace. It's quieted down over the last five years though. The well-being of Her Majesty is steadily improving.

So there were plenty of believers in the Empire. 

Also, you need to know what the term "restore" means as well.

Quote

restore (verb): bring back (a previous right, practice, custom, or situation); reinstate.

It's the Church being restored in the endings by the Empire, transforming it into strictly a religious institute, not a military or political force like in the other routes. 

Letters? You mean the manifestos? The manifestos reveals the dark side of the Church and the foul practices of the Kingdom and Alliance. Overall, she is trying to remove Rhea from the power of the Church, since Rhea leading Fodlan is the primary source of why so many things went to hell. 

Seriously, at this point, you are just wanting to take the absolute worst interpretations to the point of making up lies by claiming that Edelgard wants to be worshipped or that Manuela does worship her, both of which are false. 

It's even worse when you actually admitted to BELIEVING Dimitri's accusation that Edelgard wants to be the goddess and think that Seteth's words means it's actually true, using two characters that actually don't know a damn thing about Edelgard. 

You wanna argue without making up lies? Use proper evidence. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

...

I'm sorry, what?

Faith and belief is NOT religion?

Read the literal definition!

Dude, if anyone is confused here, it's you. 

The Empire did NOT kick out the Church 100 years ago. You're referring to the Southern Church insurrection yes? That event led the Empire to retain relations to the Central Church, albeit strained.

The Empire still had relations to the Church. Arundel literally send huge sums of donations to the Church yearly before he was replaced by Thales (so that already debunks your claim that the Empire kicked the Church itself out 100 years ago). As someone that played Blue Lions, how did you NOT know that since that was the route where you learn that little information? 

It's stated in Edelgard's route that the war against the Church caused a lot of issues in the people that were believers:

So there were plenty of believers in the Empire. 

Also, you need to know what the term "restore" means as well.

It's the Church being restored in the endings by the Empire, transforming it into strictly a religious institute, not a military or political force like in the other routes. 

Letters? You mean the manifestos? The manifestos reveals the dark side of the Church and the foul practices of the Kingdom and Alliance. Overall, she is trying to remove Rhea from the power of the Church, since Rhea leading Fodlan is the primary source of why so many things went to hell. 

Seriously, at this point, you are just wanting to take the absolute worst interpretations to the point of making up lies by claiming that Edelgard wants to be worshipped or that Manuela does worship her, both of which are false. 

It's even worse when you actually admitted to BELIEVING Dimitri's accusation that Edelgard wants to be the goddess and think that Seteth's words means it's actually true, using two characters that actually don't know a damn thing about Edelgard. 

You wanna argue without making up lies? Use proper evidence. 

You wanna learn to read that’s not what I said at all I even said Seteth is wrong and only you bring up Dimitri. Also ask anyone in real life who believes in god if it’s the same as following an organized religious culture they will flat out tell you no. You literally cherry picked Manuela support with no context and ignored the rest and the epilogues of the bloody game. But great so you emit she directly rebuild the religion? The Church of Seiros is the religion. In case you didn’t know. It’s saints we’re literally demonized by imperial propaganda. Thanks for emitting that. She restored it under government control that’s not separation of church and state. Getting rid of the churches army who all die in the route anyway is not separating church and state. You have zero evidence and reading comprehension skills. Maybe don’t excuse others of lying when you’re only evidence I proved false by showing the actual epilogues and Edelgards words in the Manuel support plus the ending to the support. Also yeah you emit the empire and church relationship is weaker if not out right gone by the start of the game then good.

Edited by Julian Solo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Julian Solo said:

You wanna learn to read that’s not what I said all I even said Seteth is wrong and only you bring up Dimitri. Also ask anyone in real life who believes in god if it’s the same as following an organized religious culture they will flat out tell you no. You literally cherry picked Manuela support with no context and ignored the rest and the epilogues of the bloody game. But great so you emit she directly rebuild the religion? The Church of Seiros is the religion. In case you didn’t know. It’s saints we’re literally demonized by imperial propaganda. Thanks for emitting that. She restored it under government control that’s not separation of church and state. Getting rid of the churches army who all die in the route anyway is not separating church and state. You have zero evidence reading comprehension skills. Maybe don’t excuse others of lying when you’re only evidence I proved false by showing the actual epilogues and Edelgards words in the Manuel support plus the ending to the support. Also yeah you emit the empire and church relationship is weaker if not out right gone by the start of the game then good.

Dude, you are denying the literal definition of what religion is. Religion is NOT an institution. It is the faith. The belief. If you don't have belief, you are not of the religion at all. An institution is just an institution. The Church is just an institution to practice the religion. The Church of Seiros is just an institution. 

Read Mercedes's quote:

Quote

Mercedes: Surely, this is what the goddess willed, isn't it? I feel she would not have wanted the Church of Seiros to become what it has...

Look at that. Mercedes, a very religious girl, siding with Edelgard once recruited, and instead learns that the institution is wrong and have misused its powers, but here she is, still remaining faithful. And Marianne still goes around praying at the chapel in Crimson Flower. Once again, proving that she is still a devout believer of the religion, despite fighting against the institution. 

Where does it state in Crimson Flower that Edelgard demonized the Saints at all? Where does it state anything that actually proves without refute that what you say it true? Answer, you don't.

I literally provide several contexts and evidence that prove that Edelgard is not actually destroying the religion and replacing it with her as the goddess. She doesn't do that. She actually is fine with people still believing in the goddess. 

Also, Edelgard never destroyed the Church's entire army. What logic are you drawing that from? The last chapter map is just killing Rhea, meaning that you can actually avoid killing the entire many Church soldiers. Hell, Catherine, Cyril, Gilbert, and any other characters can be avoided as well. I've had several pieces of evidence to actually back up my arguments. You twist endings to insist on faulty logic. 

So please, stop lying. Own up that you don't actually know what you're saying and stop trying to convince people that your lies are the truth.

Anyways, I'm done with this discussion. I've got to go and I won't be having any internet for the next few days, so don't expect me to reply. Least not for the next few days, but even then, I likely won't. I've said my peace, and now its up to you whether you wish to remain stubborn and cling to your headcanons and lies, or accept when you're wrong like a grown up. 

Good day, people.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Dude, you are denying the literal definition of what religion is. Religion is NOT an institution. It is the faith. The belief. If you don't have belief, you are not of the religion at all. An institution is just an institution. The Church is just an institution to practice the religion. The Church of Seiros is just an institution. 

Read Mercedes's quote:

Look at that. Mercedes, a very religious girl, siding with Edelgard once recruited, and instead learns that the institution is wrong and have misused its powers, but here she is, still remaining faithful. And Marianne still goes around praying at the chapel in Crimson Flower. Once again, proving that she is still a devout believer of the religion, despite fighting against the institution. 

Where does it state in Crimson Flower that Edelgard demonized the Saints at all? Where does it state anything that actually proves without refute that what you say it true? Answer, you don't.

I literally provide several contexts and evidence that prove that Edelgard is not actually destroying the religion and replacing it with her as the goddess. She doesn't do that. She actually is fine with people still believing in the goddess. 

Also, Edelgard never destroyed the Church's entire army. What logic are you drawing that from? The last chapter map is just killing Rhea, meaning that you can actually avoid killing the entire many Church soldiers. Hell, Catherine, Cyril, Gilbert, and any other characters can be avoided as well. I've had several pieces of evidence to actually back up my arguments. You twist endings to insist on faulty logic. 

So please, stop lying. Own up that you don't actually know what you're saying and stop trying to convince people that your lies are the truth.

Anyways, I'm done with this discussion. I've got to go and I won't be having any internet for the next few days, so don't expect me to reply. Least not for the next few days, but even then, I likely won't. I've said my peace, and now its up to you whether you wish to remain stubborn and cling to your headcanons and lies, or accept when you're wrong like a grown up. 

Good day, people.

 

What Mercedes thinks is irrelevant anyway as Byleth is god. She’s also not Edelgard or has any political or military say lol. You clearly have never talked to anyone in real life who believe in god but not religion have you? How do you know the church army survived? There’s no spar option for them and they wouldn’t surrender at that point after they murdered Dimitri lol. You have zero arguments or facts, so you resulted to character attack’s first. The only head cannoning child here is you dude. This is my last response to you ever on this forum because you clearly are not sincere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...