What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Acacia Sgt]

2 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Sorry; I misread your statement at first.

At first, I thought you meant a literal blood pact (as in the human character drinking the blood of the dragon character for power, like in Genealogy), and I was trying (very poorly, I'll admit) to say that Slayde's statement implies that the Zofian royal family weren't given blood by Mila, but are of her actual bloodline. Of course, his words could still mean the typical blood thing, but now I understand that that's not what you were talking about. 

I probably need to recheck that whole "drank actual blood from the dragon" bit; but there's no indication the process can be done differently. So what Mila did to Zofia is no different from waht Naga, Forseti, Salamander, and the others did with the Darna Crusaders.

[CH0D]

6 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

What? 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but that last part is objectively wrong: we get plenty of information about all the characters in Path of Radiance, whether they’re important to the story or not, and we learn lots about them through multiple means; the two biggest ones being support conversations and base conversations.

The only characters we don’t learn too much of are the side characters exclusive to Radiant Dawn due to the support conversations bring pretty much nothing. Even then, there’s still some stuff to learn from their base conversations.

To be fair I did play the game a while ago so I could be remembering differently, but I don't really remember the support convos at all. Like I couldn't tell you about to many characters, other than Makalov, who's my favorite.

The designs are just really weird and not the best tbh, and that's all my opinion, but it still exists for me. I specifically strongly dislike a good amount of characters from Tellius too. Jill, Soren, Titania, Lucia, Naesala, and Elincia all really get on my nerves. 

I'll give the supports and character information the benefit of the doubt, but even then it still has a lot going against it imo.

PoR isn't a big offender tbh, it's a solid game, but its sequel is a completely different story....

[vanguard333]

27 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Unrequited love isn't the same thing as castration.

True, but it is yet another reason why someone probably wouldn't sleep with their brother's wife; the other being that it's their brother's wife. 

 

27 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Jill isnt important. She just seems like she is because she's a very, very well done unimportant character.

Very true. 

 

20 minutes ago, CH0D said:

To be fair I did play the game a while ago so I could be remembering differently, but I don't really remember the support convos at all. Like I couldn't tell you about to many characters, other than Makalov, who's my favorite.

The designs are just really weird and not the best tbh, and that's all my opinion, but it still exists for me. I specifically strongly dislike a good amount of characters from Tellius too. Jill, Soren, Titania, Lucia, Naesala, and Elincia all really get on my nerves. 

I'll give the supports and character information the benefit of the doubt, but even then it still has a lot going against it imo.

PoR isn't a big offender tbh, it's a solid game, but its sequel is a completely different story....

What's wrong with the designs? Honestly, compared to quite a few FE games cough Awakening, Fates and SoV cough I'd say that they're quite tame and overall pretty good. Seriously; can you give any specifics on what's wrong with them?

Why does Elincia get on your nerves? Is it the fact that she marries Geoffrey instead of Ike? 

[Eltosian Kadath]

41 minutes ago, CH0D said:

To be fair I did play the game a while ago so I could be remembering differently, but I don't really remember the support convos at all. Like I couldn't tell you about to many characters, other than Makalov, who's my favorite.

Radiant Dawn didn't really have supports, there were the mechanical effect of supports and characters would have a generic single line of "dialogue" with their support partner, but that isn't a real support conversation. Path of Radiance on the other hand had a fully functional support system. Radiant Dawn had a lot of issues, but they tried something different with it, and I find it hard to hate the game for it. If the Fire Emblem games weren't willing to take risks on wild experiments like Radiant Dawn we wouldn't have a master pieces like Thracia 776.

[AnonymousSpeed]

8 hours ago, CH0D said:

characters who aren't extremely important or just clearly emphasized for whatever reason. (Jill, Soren, Titania, etc.)

I actually can see where you're coming from with this. I think it would be hard to argue what the game doesn't give some degree of preferential treatment to Jill.

1 hour ago, CH0D said:

Makalov, who's my favorite.

Solid taste, my friend.

[Reality]

Genealogy Gen 2  is a let down compared to Gen 1 and not just in Rising Action > Denoument way ----

For me it has always had a terrible tone problem. Calling Julius himself a Sautrday Morning Cartoon villian is an exaggeration but also kind of fair... We are given alternate presentations of him as A: evil for evil's sake and B: weirdly childlike and disconnected from reality - with the examples of the latter being the scenes with his Ishtar in both Genalogy and Thracia - in the one where they decide to play a "game" instead of leading their armies, and in Thracia the "let's walk in the garden > let's go shopping scene" … Honestly although he's been placed into power by the Lopytr cult he doesn't really seem interested in actually being an emperor or anything.

Gen 2 also kicks off Lewyn as god of exposition - he  literally has half of the lines for the entire generation, and it's suually delieverd in semi-monologues with very little narration - Lead retainers like Jeigan/Marcus/Seth/Frederick have traditionally had the most non-lord dialog, but not to this extreme of a degree.

I think that the idea of this being the dark future and an apocalpyic landscape doesn't come through properly - I feel like you fight profiteering generals more so than "pawns of the new darklord" kind of thing langobolt and leptor were more interesting villians than most in gen 1, but how are their houses rewarded when they didn't fully go along with lopytr in the first place, and examples of misrule through text mentions of child hunts are too sudden and extreme to be emotionally believable. 6-7 =profiteers kind of low stakes  8-9 Thracia which is admittedly the highlight 10-Final where child hunts are mentioned most often and therefore the dumbest chapters. 

I mean I get annoyed in general that people will weight story>gameplay enough to say it makes up for it... but it's only Gen1 so when people say the love it enough to overlook the gameplay... do they just love that first half of it ? Enough that every other FE story is bad by comparison? Really?

[Slumber]

21 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The way Elice acts like Marth is the only one who could possibly wield the Falchion makes me think no one was paying attention to female descendants of Anri at the time, so there may be more out there from female branches that have changed family names through marriage. Plus the idea of rulers being able to trace (or at least claim) lines of descent back to more ancients rulers even out to 2,000 years and beyond is not unheard of, the issue is with how difficult it is to rely on historical records from so long ago (not to mention covering so long of a time), and the myths surrounding ancient rulers. As three examples of very ancient claims of descent, the Queen of England claim descent back out 1,500 back to the possibly legendary Cerdric first Saxon king of Wessex, the Japanese emperors trace back to over 2,500 years to a descendant of the Sun Goddess Amaterasu (although it is hard to verify the reigns of the emperors older than 1,481 years ago) and numerous Chinese ruling families have claimed descent from the likely mythical Yellow Emperor even almost 4,000 years after his supposed reign. That Marth is considered mythical feels very appropriate, and everyone had at least two ancestors (probably and hopefully more) from 2,000 years ago, so it doesn't seem massively unreasonable.

But the opening of FE1 doesn't say Cornelius is the "sole heir", which could imply that there were family branches out there that just don't get any recognition due to gender or what have you. It says "sole descendant", as in, Cornelius is literally the only person(Besides Cornelius's own offspring) left of the family line.

And it's not necessarily that Marth still has a bloodline that feels fanservice-y. It's that Marth's family has been been directly ruling for 2000 years, and that 2000 years later, they're still the big heroes of the continent. Maybe there's been some periods where that lineage wasn't in power, can't say for certain on that one, but Marth's family was effectively running Altea in the past, and it now running its modern incarnation 2000 years later. And regardless of whether that's entirely the case, Marth's progeny are still the ones that need to save the day, even though Robin ultimately takes the glory at the last moment.

It's still less fanservice-y than one of Ike's descendant just showing up in a completely different world and joining the party, but still feels like it was thrown in because "Hey, Awakening's going to be our big send-off game because this game totally won't sell gangbusters, so let's just use the lord that everyone(That matters(aka Japan at the time of Awakening's release)) loves and have the game follow their descendant so they can use the sword that's everyone(cough cough Japan again)'s favorite weapon to fight a dark dragon again".

Also taken together, Ike's descendant and Marth's descendants teaming up is a pure fanservice move.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Slumber

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Slumber said:

It's still less fanservice-y than one of Ike's descendant just showing up in a completely different world and joining the party, but still feels like it was thrown in because "Hey, Awakening's going to be our big send-off game because this game totally won't sell gangbusters, so let's just use the lord that everyone(That matters(aka Japan at the time of Awakening's release)) loves and have the game follow their descendant so they can use the sword that's everyone(cough cough Japan again)'s favorite weapon to fight a dark dragon again".

"Okay, buy can I still redesign the sword?"

"Sure. What are you thinking."

"Oh nice. Well I'm going to make it much bigger, and put a giant hole in it!"

"What? Why?"

"Because it's cool!"

"But...how will people know it's in any way the same sword."

"We'll give it the same name!"

"But...how will we justify it in universe that it's the same weapon?"

"Oh just say they reforged it or something."

"It's a magical unbreakable sword..."

[Deathcon]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

"Okay, buy can I still redesign the sword?"

"Sure. What are you thinking."

"Oh nice. Well I'm going to make it much bigger, and put a giant hole in it!"

"What? Why?"

"Because it's cool!"

"But...how will people know it's in any way the same sword."

"We'll give it the same name!"

"But...how will we justify it in universe that it's the same weapon?"

"Oh just say they reforged it or something."

"It's a magical unbreakable sword..."

Tbf the sword is unbreakable, the hilt isn't.

[vanguard333]

10 minutes ago, Deathcon said:

Tbf the sword is unbreakable, the hilt isn't.

Exactly. The blade didn't get altered; the hilt did. 

The design is still rather weird. There's no guard, and the hole in it is a bit impractical. 

[Jotari]

32 minutes ago, Deathcon said:

Tbf the sword is unbreakable, the hilt isn't.

Yeah, I know one of Lucina's support convos say that, but just look at them.

The whole thing must be hilt then. Because those dimensions do not look the same to me.

[Etrurian emperor]

11 hours ago, Reality said:

Honestly although he's been placed into power by the Lopytr cult he doesn't really seem interested in actually being an emperor or anything.

I think that's kinda the point. He's a lazy, bratty teenager who'd probably prefers spending his time on Ishtar and ''games'' then on all that pesky paperwork required of an emperor. That's kinda his charm I think. There's room for him both being a spoiled brat and evil for evil's sake. The brat is who Julius really is and being incredibly evil is due to him having Satan living in his body. 

But I would agree that the second gen is a step down from the first. That's kinda inevitable. The first gen is the deconstruction of the lord archetye which inherently makes it more interesting than the second gen where Seliph plays it straight. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, I know one of Lucina's support convos say that, but just look at them.

The whole thing must be hilt then. Because those dimensions do not look the same to me.

I have no source, but maybe I remember hearing it's just a design update for the players, and Falchion always looked the same canonically. Nevermind crossovers where the two designs are on display side by side. This was the excuse they used for Mega Man Zero's version of Zero and Omega the evil robot with Zero's original body, not looking at all like Mega Man X's version of Zero.

 

But, I'd prefer an explanation that something like the Falchion has to be realigned to deal with different threats. Grima, although Awakening itself gave us no idea what it was, it's understandable to me that what would work on Earth/Shadow Dragons, wouldn't necessarily be effective on Grima. Naga needed to change the alter the chemical-magical composition Dracodentium Alloy 1.8 into Dracodentium Alloy 3.5 for it to penetrate the flesh of Grima very effectively. Dracodentium Alloy will regardless of the specific formula slice into your grandma's wyvern with deadly ease, but for the very biggest of threats, you may need to adjust it. A common multipurpose antibiotic for a common strain of bacteria, a very specific drug for a very deadly bacterium.

 

6 hours ago, Slumber said:

but Marth's family was effectively running Altea in the past, and it now running its modern incarnation 2000 years later.

I recall seeing a politically colored map of FE13's eastern continent that I can't find right now. But, Altea is actually part of Plegia now, Chapter 11 takes place in the former Altea- Gangrel's final battle. Marth's dynasty seems to have kept the Kingdom of Archanea Nyna gave him at the end of the War of Heroes, but somewhere down the line lost the ancestral home. Not that they probably cared too much after centuries of being enthroned in Archanea.

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I have no source, but maybe I remember hearing it's just a design update for the players, and Falchion always looked the same canonically. Nevermind crossovers where the two designs are on display side by side. This was the excuse they used for Mega Man Zero's version of Zero and Omega the evil robot with Zero's original body, not looking at all like Mega Man X's version of Zero.

Hence my imaginary conversation about redesigning it.

3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

But, I'd prefer an explanation that something like the Falchion has to be realigned to deal with different threats. Grima, although Awakening itself gave us no idea what it was, it's understandable to me that what would work on Earth/Shadow Dragons, wouldn't necessarily be effective on Grima. Naga needed to change the alter the chemical-magical composition Dracodentium Alloy 1.8 into Dracodentium Alloy 3.5 for it to penetrate the flesh of Grima very effectively. Dracodentium Alloy will regardless of the specific formula slice into your grandma's wyvern with deadly ease, but for the very biggest of threats, you may need to adjust it. A common multipurpose antibiotic for a common strain of bacteria, a very specific drug for a very deadly bacterium.

For what it's worth Marth's amiibo appearance in Shadows of Valentia and his Hero King variation in Heroes both list his weapon as Exalted Falchion, like Chrom's final form Falchion. To me at least that suggests the Exalted Falchion is the original power of the weapon and that Naga was simply recharging its batteries to its original strength.

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

But I would agree that the second gen is a step down from the first. That's kinda inevitable. The first gen is the deconstruction of the lord archetye which inherently makes it more interesting than the second gen where Seliph plays it straight. 

I think the trick then to making the second gen more interesting (if it ever gets a remake) would be for Seliph to be a reconstruction of the lord archetype rather than just playing it straight. The dad deconstructs it, and the son reconstructs it. 

[CH0D]

14 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

What's wrong with the designs? Honestly, compared to quite a few FE games cough Awakening, Fates and SoV cough I'd say that they're quite tame and overall pretty good. Seriously; can you give any specifics on what's wrong with them?

Why does Elincia get on your nerves? Is it the fact that she marries Geoffrey instead of Ike? 

This isn't necessarily a critique of the game, just a personal issue. I think the designs are just really akward, and the only ones that really stand out to me are the realy unique ones like Makalov and Stephen. The red and green cavaliers are a staple of the franchise that I want to exist forever, but I thin Oscar and Keiran are the least standout of the bunch, at least in terms of design. They're the only simply red and green colored one since Cain and Abel, every other group was at least a bit different including the closest ones (Alec and Lance) had just enough weird coloration to make them stand out. Also I personally really like SoV's designs, and I think Awakening has some gems, like the armor is weird but at least it's consistent among it's characters, and the faces and hair stood out, whereas in PoR I doubt I could name the entire cast. It's supposed to be a ragtag bunch of people, but oddly enough I feel a good majority are kinda barely not interesting enough. This part is entirely my opinion though so I don't hold it agaisnt the game, just a preference.

I could care less about if she got with Ike or not, he's one of my least favorite lords in the franchise. I'm more annoyed by how she's just such a basc character. Just another peace loving female written by IS sadly. And those never really turn out well. Celica is just a better done version of her imo, showing her naivety and poor decision making skills in an understandable way, rather than how Elincia is just kinda, "ruled poorly offscreen lol, rebellion time."

14 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Radiant Dawn didn't really have supports, there were the mechanical effect of supports and characters would have a generic single line of "dialogue" with their support partner, but that isn't a real support conversation. Path of Radiance on the other hand had a fully functional support system. Radiant Dawn had a lot of issues, but they tried something different with it, and I find it hard to hate the game for it. If the Fire Emblem games weren't willing to take risks on wild experiments like Radiant Dawn we wouldn't have a master pieces like Thracia 776.

Yeah Radiant Dawn has a lot of issues in my opinion. Lack of supports and reliance on PoR to give you information is a pretty big issue. I get it's a sequel, but years have passed, so there is plenty of material there.

It has the balls to try something new, but the new things just aren't very good, fundementally. In an rpg about exp management and strategy, having a major concept being skipping around between multiple groups with varying levels of strength and practically constant unit variation is a pretty big issue. If you were playing the game for the first time you could put a lot of investment into a character, particularly one of the new ones because they are new and not just one of the many many many same characters, just to have them turn out unviable because the game doesn't allow for them to be is really frustrating. Plus the story is pretty bad in my opinion. The only new mechanic that I find positive is the inclusion of third tier classes, because it's always nice to see units get better, even if this game doesn't really encourage growth.

[Icelerate]

16 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Radiant Dawn didn't really have supports, there were the mechanical effect of supports and characters would have a generic single line of "dialogue" with their support partner, but that isn't a real support conversation. Path of Radiance on the other hand had a fully functional support system. Radiant Dawn had a lot of issues, but they tried something different with it, and I find it hard to hate the game for it. If the Fire Emblem games weren't willing to take risks on wild experiments like Radiant Dawn we wouldn't have a master pieces like Thracia 776.

I'm currently on chapter 10 of Thracia 776 but I highly doubt it gets so much better to become a masterpiece. There are very few games I'd call masterpieces and so far none of the FE games I've played (4,6,7,8,9,10) strike me as such. What does Thracia do later on to become worthy of becoming a masterpiece IYO?

[CH0D]

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

I'm currently on chapter 10 of Thracia 776 but I highly doubt it gets so much better to become a masterpiece. There are very few games I'd call masterpieces and so far none of the FE games I've played (4,6,7,8,9,10) strike me as such. What does Thracia do later on to become worthy of becoming a masterpiece IYO?

It's one of the few FE games that I feel allows for real unique problem solving and planning. The two routes allow for different characters each playthrough, and crusader scrolls allow for you to customize units in a way that doesn't really feel cheap. PCC adds a new layer of strength to units, and build as a stat with a growth and the capture mechanic allows for otherwise "useless" units to be useful as well as completey new strategies and playstyles. Each character is viable and the game is fairly balanced, sure, some units are better than others, and some chapters are a little annoying, but if you want you can use really unique strategies to complete them. Warp staffs are the most abundant they've been in the series which allows for unique positioning and really fun ideas. Plus, though the story isn't much, for what it is it's really good. Every playthrough you find out a new way to play, and it's easily one of the most replayable games in the franchise, with its large cast that can all be used and extreme amount of possibilities.

 

(Also movement and leadership stars are muey bueno, and it has the best execution of thieves in the franchise IMO.)

[vanguard333]

5 hours ago, CH0D said:

I could care less about if she got with Ike or not, he's one of my least favorite lords in the franchise. I'm more annoyed by how she's just such a basc character. Just another peace loving female written by IS sadly. And those never really turn out well. Celica is just a better done version of her imo, showing her naivety and poor decision making skills in an understandable way, rather than how Elincia is just kinda, "ruled poorly offscreen lol, rebellion time."

I was making a joke about the Ike and Elinicia thing; I thought the fact that I put a strikethrough through it made it obvious that I was joking. 

And... wow; that's a really reductive view of Elincia. I respect your opinion, but misrepresentation and reductivism are two things I take issue with. ( @Anacybele Can you help me out with this?)

Path of Radiance Elincia is a good character with a great character arc. She was never meant to rule: she was born after her uncle was named the king's successor, so she was sent to a villa and raised in secret. She may start off sheltered like other FE princesses, but she grows out of it. Over the course of the game, she grows as a character; taking a more active role in retaking Crimea and even taking to the battlefield. She is not basic. 

Then, for Radiant Dawn, "just kinda ruled poorly offscreen lol, rebellion time" is so reductive and misrepresentative that I hardly know where to begin. By all accounts in Radiant Dawn, she was doing a great job leading Crimea during its recovery; inviting the Laguz to help rebuild, making little reforms here and there, etc. She's still plagued by insecurity over whether or not she's worthy of being Queen, but that's something she's been struggling with since Path of Radiance and is completely understandable given everything we know about her. The thing that frankly makes her a great character is that, despite how much that weighs on her, she still leads to the best of her abilities. Celica, by contrast, panics from her insecurities over Alm and decides to trust Evil Smurf Jedah. 

Ludveck's rebellion is not from Elincia ruling poorly; it is entirely from him being a self-centered a****** who believes that a ruler who isn't ruthless is a terrible ruler. He is the equivalent of a politician getting people angry at the current leader over stuff caused by the previous leader (the previous leader in this case being Daein). Elincia is not peace-loving; what she is, is a ruler that recognizes that Crimea is still recovering from King Ashnard's war and cannot afford to plunge into civil war or go to war with another nation. So, naturally, she wanted to resolve the unrest in Crimea as peacefully as possible. But when push came to shove, she did not hesitate to show backbone. 

Then, in part 3, she declares neutrality because her people nearly went through civil war on top of still recovering from the Mad King's war. Of course she declares neutrality. But, when Begnion decides to march through Crimea anyway and pillage whatever they want along the way, she sends the Crimean Knights. When the Laguz Alliance and the Begnion Army are about to fight, she flies between them and demands they leave Crimea and take their fight elsewhere; a move so audacious that everyone except Valtome respects it and is about to leave until they realize Valtome isn't leaving. 

"Celica is just a better done version of her" I hardly understand how the two are even comparable frankly. Elincia's insecurities are over whether or not she can be the ruler her people need her to be since she wasn't raised for it, Celica's insecurities are over a boy (cough more evidence Alm is a Mary Sue cough). Elincia shows reason, diplomacy, and levelheadedness. Celica displays no such traits. Elincia is made playable late-game as a reflection of how far her character has come; that she's now ready to fight alongside the Greil Mercenaries and be part of the fight for Crimea's Liberation. Celica is playable right from the beginning of Part 2 as she journeys to talk to Mila to find a way to keep Alm from getting killed. …Yay?

Elincia is a fantastic character with plenty of depth and a lot to enjoy about her. Celica would've been better off in a game without Alm in it. 

[Anacybele]

33 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

And... wow; that's a really reductive view of Elincia. I respect your opinion, but misrepresentation and reductivism are two things I take issue with. ( @Anacybele Can you help me out with this?)

Path of Radiance Elincia is a good character with a great character arc. She was never meant to rule: she was born after her uncle was named the king's successor, so she was sent to a villa and raised in secret. She may start off sheltered like other FE princesses, but she grows out of it. Over the course of the game, she grows as a character; taking a more active role in retaking Crimea and even taking to the battlefield. She is not basic. 

Then, for Radiant Dawn, "just kinda ruled poorly offscreen lol, rebellion time" is so reductive and misrepresentative that I hardly know where to begin. By all accounts in Radiant Dawn, she was doing a great job leading Crimea during its recovery; inviting the Laguz to help rebuild, making little reforms here and there, etc. She's still plagued by insecurity over whether or not she's worthy of being Queen, but that's something she's been struggling with since Path of Radiance and is completely understandable given everything we know about her. The thing that frankly makes her a great character is that, despite how much that weighs on her, she still leads to the best of her abilities. Celica, by contrast, panics from her insecurities over Alm and decides to trust Evil Smurf Jedah. 

Ludveck's rebellion is not from Elincia ruling poorly; it is entirely from him being a self-centered a****** who believes that a ruler who isn't ruthless is a terrible ruler. He is the equivalent of a politician getting people angry at the current leader over stuff caused by the previous leader (the previous leader in this case being Daein). Elincia is not peace-loving; what she is, is a ruler that recognizes that Crimea is still recovering from King Ashnard's war and cannot afford to plunge into civil war or go to war with another nation. So, naturally, she wanted to resolve the unrest in Crimea as peacefully as possible. But when push came to shove, she did not hesitate to show backbone. 

Then, in part 3, she declares neutrality because her people nearly went through civil war on top of still recovering from the Mad King's war. Of course she declares neutrality. But, when Begnion decides to march through Crimea anyway and pillage whatever they want along the way, she sends the Crimean Knights. When the Laguz Alliance and the Begnion Army are about to fight, she flies between them and demands they leave Crimea and take their fight elsewhere; a move so audacious that everyone except Valtome respects it and is about to leave until they realize Valtome isn't leaving. 

"Celica is just a better done version of her" I hardly understand how the two are even comparable frankly. Elincia's insecurities are over whether or not she can be the ruler her people need her to be since she wasn't raised for it, Celica's insecurities are over a boy (cough more evidence Alm is a Mary Sue cough). Elincia shows reason, diplomacy, and levelheadedness. Celica displays no such traits. Elincia is made playable late-game as a reflection of how far her character has come; that she's now ready to fight alongside the Greil Mercenaries and be part of the fight for Crimea's Liberation. Celica is playable right from the beginning of Part 2 as she journeys to talk to Mila to find a way to keep Alm from getting killed. …Yay?

Elincia is a fantastic character with plenty of depth and a lot to enjoy about her. Celica would've been better off in a game without Alm in it. 

Hmm, I'm not sure what I could say here that you didn't already. You explained perfectly why Elincia is so amazing. But one thing I do want to add is that Elincia did all she had to in RD when she hated being queen in the first place. She literally says to Leanne that she never wanted to be queen. Putting effort into something you want is one thing, but to be able to do that just as well for something you DON'T want but have to? That's much more impressive.

[vanguard333]

2 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Hmm, I'm not sure what I could say here that you didn't already. You explained perfectly why Elincia is so amazing. But one thing I do want to add is that Elincia did all she had to in RD when she hated being queen in the first place. She literally says to Leanne that she never wanted to be queen. Putting effort into something you want is one thing, but to be able to do that just as well for something you DON'T want but have to? That's much more impressive.

Thank you very much. That helps a lot. 

@CH0D As Anacybele said, she also does all this when not only was she never trained for the position, but she had never really wanted it. That's all the more impressive. 

[Jotari]

I like Elincia, but I can see why someone could say she's very basic in Path of Radiance. A lot of the time she's just not there and only pops up for a line or two to basically say "Remember the princess who's the reason we're here?". It's great that she fights and I can see where they're going with the whole parallel of her and Ike suddenly being thrust into responsibility, but in execution I think she can be a bit flat.

She's great in Radiant Dawn though.

[Shrimpica]

6 hours ago, Icelerate said:

I'm currently on chapter 10 of Thracia 776 but I highly doubt it gets so much better to become a masterpiece. There are very few games I'd call masterpieces and so far none of the FE games I've played (4,6,7,8,9,10) strike me as such. What does Thracia do later on to become worthy of becoming a masterpiece IYO?

Imo, you already played Thracia at it's peak, which is the Manster Arc.

Why people love Thracia so much (including me) usually comes down to it's unique mechanics, some which still define the series to this day and some which never came back. Despite it's mechanics, the game still has alot of what i would call ''Kaga bs surprises''. I am not a fan of them, Die Hard Thracia fans usually love them though.

[CH0D]

19 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I was making a joke about the Ike and Elinicia thing; I thought the fact that I put a strikethrough through it made it obvious that I was joking. 

And... wow; that's a really reductive view of Elincia. I respect your opinion, but misrepresentation and reductivism are two things I take issue with. ( @Anacybele Can you help me out with this?)

Path of Radiance Elincia is a good character with a great character arc. She was never meant to rule: she was born after her uncle was named the king's successor, so she was sent to a villa and raised in secret. She may start off sheltered like other FE princesses, but she grows out of it. Over the course of the game, she grows as a character; taking a more active role in retaking Crimea and even taking to the battlefield. She is not basic. 

Then, for Radiant Dawn, "just kinda ruled poorly offscreen lol, rebellion time" is so reductive and misrepresentative that I hardly know where to begin. By all accounts in Radiant Dawn, she was doing a great job leading Crimea during its recovery; inviting the Laguz to help rebuild, making little reforms here and there, etc. She's still plagued by insecurity over whether or not she's worthy of being Queen, but that's something she's been struggling with since Path of Radiance and is completely understandable given everything we know about her. The thing that frankly makes her a great character is that, despite how much that weighs on her, she still leads to the best of her abilities. Celica, by contrast, panics from her insecurities over Alm and decides to trust Evil Smurf Jedah. 

Ludveck's rebellion is not from Elincia ruling poorly; it is entirely from him being a self-centered a****** who believes that a ruler who isn't ruthless is a terrible ruler. He is the equivalent of a politician getting people angry at the current leader over stuff caused by the previous leader (the previous leader in this case being Daein). Elincia is not peace-loving; what she is, is a ruler that recognizes that Crimea is still recovering from King Ashnard's war and cannot afford to plunge into civil war or go to war with another nation. So, naturally, she wanted to resolve the unrest in Crimea as peacefully as possible. But when push came to shove, she did not hesitate to show backbone. 

Then, in part 3, she declares neutrality because her people nearly went through civil war on top of still recovering from the Mad King's war. Of course she declares neutrality. But, when Begnion decides to march through Crimea anyway and pillage whatever they want along the way, she sends the Crimean Knights. When the Laguz Alliance and the Begnion Army are about to fight, she flies between them and demands they leave Crimea and take their fight elsewhere; a move so audacious that everyone except Valtome respects it and is about to leave until they realize Valtome isn't leaving. 

"Celica is just a better done version of her" I hardly understand how the two are even comparable frankly. Elincia's insecurities are over whether or not she can be the ruler her people need her to be since she wasn't raised for it, Celica's insecurities are over a boy (cough more evidence Alm is a Mary Sue cough). Elincia shows reason, diplomacy, and levelheadedness. Celica displays no such traits. Elincia is made playable late-game as a reflection of how far her character has come; that she's now ready to fight alongside the Greil Mercenaries and be part of the fight for Crimea's Liberation. Celica is playable right from the beginning of Part 2 as she journeys to talk to Mila to find a way to keep Alm from getting killed. …Yay?

Elincia is a fantastic character with plenty of depth and a lot to enjoy about her. Celica would've been better off in a game without Alm in it. 

Thank you of informing me of all of this, I was not aware of most of this information. 

However I do think some of my points still stand

19 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Path of Radiance Elincia is a good character with a great character arc. She was never meant to rule: she was born after her uncle was named the king's successor, so she was sent to a villa and raised in secret. She may start off sheltered like other FE princesses, but she grows out of it. Over the course of the game, she grows as a character; taking a more active role in retaking Crimea and even taking to the battlefield. She is not basic. 

Maybe I'm hearing this incorrectly, but to me these things happen to Celica as well, so saying they aren't at least repeated traits between them is a bit of a stretch.

 

19 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

The thing that frankly makes her a great character is that, despite how much that weighs on her, she still leads to the best of her abilities. Celica, by contrast, panics from her insecurities over Alm and decides to trust Evil Smurf Jedah. 

I left out the first part because I have nothing to say to it. That was a very good point.

The first part isn't true at all. you make the mistake of saying that makes her a good character. What you mean is that it makes her a good person. What makes a god character is much more subjective, but I think it comes down to three main things, preference, impression, and expectation. So while I agree she's a good person who has grown, that doesn't really qualify as an enjoyabe character in my eyes. Rather, your second sentence explains perfectly why I like Celica. She has flaws. And she is  able to overcome them, something I find much more enjoyable to read and think about because it's a much more realistic possibility. Also she sees two options, die, or die, but for something maybe, so I don't personally think her decision was horrible.

19 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

"Celica is just a better done version of her" I hardly understand how the two are even comparable frankly. Elincia's insecurities are over whether or not she can be the ruler her people need her to be since she wasn't raised for it, Celica's insecurities are over a boy (cough more evidence Alm is a Mary Sue cough). Elincia shows reason, diplomacy, and levelheadedness. Celica displays no such traits. Elincia is made playable late-game as a reflection of how far her character has come; that she's now ready to fight alongside the Greil Mercenaries and be part of the fight for Crimea's Liberation. Celica is playable right from the beginning of Part 2 as she journeys to talk to Mila to find a way to keep Alm from getting killed. …Yay?

Elincia is a fantastic character with plenty of depth and a lot to enjoy about her. Celica would've been better off in a game without Alm in it. 

I feel this just kind of lines up with what I said previously. Also, maybe I'm just not understanding, but if she doesn't want to rule, and doesn't think she can, then why does she? I get it, the whole daughter of the king thing, but it just seems irresponsible to put her on the throne fundamentally. Also, Celica is also seeking out Mila to save pretty much everybody, because no one can grow any crops, at all, so Alm is just a side objective for her. Celica starting right off the bat isn't a bad thing. Elincia joining later shows growth and fits her character kinda, but Celica being reckless and fighting immediatly fits her in her own way. Just like Alm she's reckless in her own goals, hers are driven more towards peace, however she's just as reckless. Which is why they're both necessary. Their recklessness is their connecting bond as characters. Alm charges into war, whereas Celica charges into her own individual conflicts. 

I feel at the end of the day it comes down to preference here. I don't like Elincia because of how successful she is against all of her odds, because some of them just shouldn't be surpassable. I actually would have prefered it if she sucked at ruling, but how she ends up being fine at it just doesn't really fit my tastes. On the other hand Celica messes up. A lot. And so does Alm. Though not as much, which I will agree with is an issue, however I think if you get Mathilda killed it vastly increases the games quality of story and makes a lot more sense. (Sorry Mathilda.)

The whole growth thing is reall good, I do like characters who grow over the story to become better versions of themselves, however I prefer when its done through failure rather than success. Leif gets captured, almost rendering his efforts useless, and gets one of his closest allies killed. 

At the end of the day it's opinion, and while I still dislike Elincia, I am glad you informed me about her character more.

Edited February 7, 2020 by CH0D

[CH0D]

16 hours ago, Shrimperor said:

Imo, you already played Thracia at it's peak, which is the Manster Arc.

Why people love Thracia so much (including me) usually comes down to it's unique mechanics, some which still define the series to this day and some which never came back. Despite it's mechanics, the game still has alot of what i would call ''Kaga bs surprises''. I am not a fan of them, Die Hard Thracia fans usually love them though.

I wouldn't say the manster arc is the best part it's one of the better parts, but I think the game get's really fun when you get to experiment with different strategies, i.e. warp/rewarp staves.

Also I don't entirely remember the Kaga BS surprises thing, I think a lot of people need to remember that this game, like the rest, was not intended to be played perfectly. A lot of mechanics and story elements fit this perfectly. While I can see why that deters some people, due to the developed fear of unit death and mistakes, I think Thracia handles it in a really good way. The BS surprises aren't to make you fail, rather keep you on your toes and remind you that sometimes you cant always be successful. However, this is all a matter of opinion.