What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, DragonFlames said:

The whole "Claude is a third wheel" thing ties back into the (confirmed, as far as I know) theory that the basic premise of Three Houses was heavily inspired by the novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which is practically Koei's home turf when it comes to game stories.
The basic structure of what is depicted as the main conflict in both is "the ruthless, ambitious conqueror against the benevolent ruler", which, in Three Houses terms, is Edelgard vs. Dimitri. Claude is the third faction, the wild card, whose allegiance and aim in the conflict isn't clear to the other two, but it is seperate from them, making that third faction appear as a third wheel.

That would be great if Claude's allegiance actually wasn't completely on Dimitri's side in all scenarios. It's Romance of the Two Kingdoms against the slightly bigger Kingdom.

[ZeManaphy]

4 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

The whole "Claude is a third wheel" thing ties back into the (confirmed, as far as I know) theory that the basic premise of Three Houses was heavily inspired by the novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which is practically Koei's home turf when it comes to game stories.
The basic structure of what is depicted as the main conflict in both is "the ruthless, ambitious conqueror against the benevolent ruler", which, in Three Houses terms, is Edelgard vs. Dimitri. Claude is the third faction, the wild card, whose allegiance and aim in the conflict isn't clear to the other two, but it is seperate from them, making that third faction appear as a third wheel.

Didn’t IS confirm they made the story though?

[vanguard333]

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

I agree with this. Claude being so tacitly against Edelgard also kind of unbalances the story a bit. The thrust of the story is Edelgard vs Rhea, but the game kind of feels pretty Rhea heavy when Edelgard is the bad guy in three quarters of the routes. Honestly I think they had more plans for Claude but he got shafted by the over ambition of the project. I'd love to see a documentary on the making of Three Houses, because it was obviously not quite as finished as it intended to be, yet there's so many contrasting theories as to where the focus actually was between the routes.

I would love to see this as well. All the pieces are there in Three Houses for something truly incredible, yet, from what I've played so far, it does seem like IS and Koei Tecmo but off more than they could chew. Still a good game. 

One thing I think would make Claude more interesting would be if his "bringing in help from Almyra" gambit got played sooner out of necessity, and it backfires as Fodlan outside of Leicester justifiably mistake it for an Almyran invasion; not helped by Claude's heritage being exposed. Something like that could've worked in making Claude into more of a wild card rather than the fight being Edelgard vs Everyone else. I went into the Crimson Flower route of Three Houses expecting a three-way fight like advertised, not the Fire Emblem equivalent of playing as the Lannisters (as in the faction that almost everyone's against). 

[Ottservia]

20 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

I know that came off as overly negative, but I'm curious how you thought they added to Fates world outside of gameplay.

You already pointed out the class design but I would like to point out that the map design actually does kinda work for its world at least aesthetically. A lot of the levels that take place in hoshido have very bright lighting for one as these locations are constantly bathed in sunlight. The only map that doesn't follow that trend is the underground ninja hideout because well it's underground. Contrast that with a lot of maps that take place in nohr which is drenched in perpetual darkness. The nohrian fortress, the wolfskin level, Cheve, etc. Ironically the only map that doesn't really follow that pattern is the nohrian underground level in birthright. This goes to highlight the differences between the two nations and how they operate. 

Which leads me into my second point here, Fates's world building is very much constructed in a way to completely highlight the differences between Hoshido and Nohr. That's the one thing that's consistently emphasized in every aspect of it's world building. Fates is a narrative about forging trust between two divided kingdoms(or if you want get more specific it's more so about how you should believe in the trust you've forged with those closest to you) that much I am certain and the world building is in service to that overarching theme. The "light" of nohr(as in the bustling market place where the city truly comes alive) exists underground, beneath the surface as it were. And when you think about what happens in that chapter(y'know Ryoma coming to understand there's more to Nohr than just mindless violence), it's kind of a literal showcase that the Nohrian people are not what they appear to be on the surface. Underneath that cold and militant reputation exists a society full of regular happy people that just wanna live normal lives. When you take the time to look beyond the surface, new truths are revealed to you and you can begin to forge a bond of trust. That is essentially what Fates's story is about. Fates's world building may not be much but it does do what it needs to in order to craft the narrative it wants to tell. 

Likewise with three houses, that story's with all of it's rich history and lore is necessary to the story's themes and messages. Three Houses is a story about being truthful/open up to others and to oneself. Foldlan's world being the way it is is in service to that idea. The fact that nobles only look at a person for their crest rather than their strength as an individual, Rhea essentially rewriting history to obscure the truth which is why Edelgard wishes to see her overthrown, or the foldlan people refusing to open up it's borders to Almyra and engage in actual cultural exchange. All of it is in service to that core idea which is why it's there and why all of it is necessary. All of the world building present in three houses isn't necessary in fates. We don't need to know more about places like the ice tribe or the Kitsune or wolfskin in order to understand the greater messages that the story wants to tell. World building, like every other aspect of the narrative, should be in service to some kind of core central theme or message that the story wants to tell. Any more information is just not necessary. It's nice to have but yeah.

20 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

I do agree that the details that aren't readily necessary towards the story and can't be easily inserted without breaking the pace should be optional, which most games do. In hindsight, something like Three Houses library would have worked well in Awakening and especially Fates, and helped expand upon the details brought up or glossed over during the main story (Echoes could have had readable books and notes during the Visual Novel sections, although there I wonder if they were considering the idea but ended up scrapping it).

y'know for as much as I rag on SoV, I feel like it's one of the games that did world building the best with it's overworld and exploration system. You can actually visit and see these different villages. Each one has its own unique feel and atmosphere. You can talk to locals to get added world building and flavor text or even get their general opinions on current events within the story and world. It's really quite impressive.

[Benice]

There was more worldbuilding in Magvel during FE8 than there was to Elibe during FE7.

Basically all we learn about Elibe in FE7 is

• Humans randomly started a war with dragons, made special weapons and kicked them out
• Lyn is hot
• There is this place in the desert where humans and dragons coexist

 

Which also leads to my next point: Lyon/Fomortiis are far superior to Nergal. To learn ANYTHING at all about Nergal you have to play Hector's mode and kill some random magic-seal dude for no real reason. Not to mention that it's really hard to kill said dude. 

[Eurydice]

10 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

The whole "Claude is a third wheel" thing ties back into the (confirmed, as far as I know) theory that the basic premise of Three Houses was heavily inspired by the novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which is practically Koei's home turf when it comes to game stories.
The basic structure of what is depicted as the main conflict in both is "the ruthless, ambitious conqueror against the benevolent ruler", which, in Three Houses terms, is Edelgard vs. Dimitri. Claude is the third faction, the wild card, whose allegiance and aim in the conflict isn't clear to the other two, but it is seperate from them, making that third faction appear as a third wheel.

It feels like Edelgard invited Rhea, Claude and Dimitri around for some Mario Kart to try and prove that Rhea was cheating but it just turns into Edelgard and Dimitri having a heated argument over blue shell-ing each other and Claude just wants to go the frick home. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Eurydice

[AnonymousSpeed]

27 minutes ago, Benice said:

There was more worldbuilding in Magvel during FE8 than there was to Elibe during FE7.

I'll second this, actually. For as much as people call Magvel underdeveloped, we at least know it has temple flames that people pray at.

Even in FE6, the only true Elibe game, we don't learn anything about religious practices.

[Acacia Sgt]

Really? I would think something of the sort would be mentioned in, say, support conversations or so.

[Deathcon]

19 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Even in FE6, the only true Elibe game, we don't learn anything about religious practices.

*Looks at Dayan and Yoder's support*

Sure..

[Eltosian Kadath]

13 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I'll second this, actually. For as much as people call Magvel underdeveloped, we at least know it has temple flames that people pray at.

Even in FE6, the only true Elibe game, we don't learn anything about religious practices.

You should read through Yodel's supports then, as that is where most of FE6's discussions about Elibian religion lie.

[AvatarofDiscord]

Let’s see

-Hate Edelgard
-Love fates more than Three houses
-Think Corrin is more relatable than Alm
-Ike is overrated
-Three houses is starting to get overrated
-Claude isn’t the best honestly, his route seemed like what Church’s route should have been
-Lysithea, Felix are both a dislike in personalities
-Mark should be involved in FE7s story more tbh
-Kris wasn’t that bad tbh
-Priscilla is best FE7 girl, not Lyn
-I find Erk and Nino is a better ship than Erk and Jaffar tbh but not for the “Jaffar looks much older reason”
-Echoes was trash
-I think that FE6 & 7 should get remade into one game with a time skip like with FE4 but with the Mark being a playable unit, also any pairs from the first half will effect stats in the second half

And I can go on and one tbh

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

17 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

You should read through Yodel's supports then, as that is where most of FE6's discussions about Elibian religion lie.

Building off of this, we also know that the Church is referred to as "the Church of St. Elimine", after one of the Eight Heroes. The Church in Magvel... does it even have a name? Also, we know from FE7 that some regions, such as Sacae, have non-Elimine religious traditions (the background of the Mani Katti).

1 hour ago, Benice said:

Which also leads to my next point: Lyon/Fomortiis are far superior to Nergal. To learn ANYTHING at all about Nergal you have to play Hector's mode and kill some random magic-seal dude for no real reason. Not to mention that it's really hard to kill said dude. 

This much I agree with, the reqs to reach Chapter 19xx are stupidly esoteric. Also Nergal is a mess who, based on his displayed power, should easily be able to achieve his expressed goals. With Lyon, it's complicated by how he's not of a uniform mind, and fights back at his possession.

[Slumber]

I'll agree with Lyon being better than Nergal pre-possession, but afterward?

With Nergal, we at least we know that ancient magic, and tampering with it DEEPLY like Nergal does, does permanent damage to a person's soul and psyche in Elibe. Nergal's initially noble/sympathetic goals eventually end up getting corrupted to just "I want to break the barrier between the human and dragon worlds and wreck havoc". He got corrupted by the only method he knew to accomplish what he wanted.

But Fomortiis just sucks. Lyon literally gets possessed by Satan. There's no real explanation to this. Grado just makes the Dark Stone and boom, Satan. And Fomortiis is the Sataniest Satan that ever Sataned. He's evil, he's haughty, he thinks he's unstoppable. He's every evil Dragon in the series without the backstory. And FE8 does absolutely nothing with the revelations that fucking demons exist in that world besides this. It's the only game in the whole series with demons, and it's just a detail that's glanced over.

"Oh, Lyon is possessed by the Demon King. Yeah, that doesn't raise any questions within the context of this series."

It's emblematic of what frustrates me about FE8's writing as a whole. Ideas and concepts get tossed out there, and rarely ever get fleshed out. And as a Fire Emblem game, my expectations are really low in this regard.

Nergal's dumb as all hell, though. Really no excuse to not just obliterate the heroes whenever they meet beyond plot contrivances. Lyon's definitely much better at that, since he only fully loses himself to Fomortiis after the heroes have powered up enough to oppose the Demon King.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Slumber

[DragonFlames]

20 hours ago, Jotari said:

That would be great if Claude's allegiance actually wasn't completely on Dimitri's side in all scenarios. It's Romance of the Two Kingdoms against the slightly bigger Kingdom.

That's the case in the novel, too, though. The kingdoms of Shu and Wu (Dimitri and Claude) were allied against the kingdom of Wei (Edelgard) for most of the story. Granted, the alliance eventually falls, but so does the one between Dimitri and Claude as he takes off to Almyra after helping him/defeating him in Azure Moon and Crimson Flower respectively.
I think it's pretty clear that Claude is mostly in it for himself and his own goals, just as Wu was in the novel. Their goals are different, however: Wu's aim was self-preservation, while Claude's is ending nationalism and racism, basically.
Maybe I should have mentioned this in my original post.

17 hours ago, ZeManaphy said:

Didn’t IS confirm they made the story though?

I remember reading them saying that the story was inspired by Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
Even if I remember wrong, there are still strong parallels that point to that being the case.

11 hours ago, Eurydice said:

It feels like Edelgard invited Rhea, Claude and Dimitri around for some Mario Kart to try and prove that Rhea was cheating but it just turns into Edelgard and Dimitri having a heated argument over blue shell-ing each other and Claude just wants to go the frick home. 

This is canon now.

2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Nergal's dumb as all hell, though. Really no excuse to not just obliterate the heroes whenever they meet beyond plot contrivances.

Not to mention that he could have fulfilled his goals any dang time he wanted to but didn't for... reasons.

[Slumber]

22 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Not to mention that he could have fulfilled his goals any dang time he wanted to but didn't for... reasons.

I'd like it if, whenever FE7 gets remade, Nergal is far more unhinged to explain his lapses in judgement.

He seems too put together for a guy whose mind and soul are completely eroded, and for a guy who only decided to finish his plans AFTER the two most important people to his plan ran away.

[DragonFlames]

12 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I'd like it if, whenever FE7 gets remade, Nergal is far more unhinged to explain his lapses in judgement.

He seems too put together for a guy whose mind and soul are completely eroded, and for a guy who only decided to finish his plans AFTER the two most important people to his plan ran away.

Yup, agreed. The "he's insane" part doesn't come across too well in the original game.
I suspect changing the dialogue around a bit and giving him a voice actor who can do this type of character well will help matters a lot.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Yuri is what Claude should have been.

 

Hapi is best girl.

 

FE8 was better than FE7.

 

Celica is not a good or intelligently-written character.

 

Defense maps are the most fun.

 

The routine lack of dedicated lance infantry classes is unacceptable.

 

Pre-promotes are more fun to use than growth units and are often more interesting characters.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

That's the case in the novel, too, though. The kingdoms of Shu and Wu (Dimitri and Claude) were allied against the kingdom of Wei (Edelgard) for most of the story. Granted, the alliance eventually falls, but so does the one between Dimitri and Claude as he takes off to Almyra after helping him/defeating him in Azure Moon and Crimson Flower respectively.
I think it's pretty clear that Claude is mostly in it for himself and his own goals, just as Wu was in the novel. Their goals are different, however: Wu's aim was self-preservation, while Claude's is ending nationalism and racism, basically.
Maybe I should have mentioned this in my original post.

I remember reading them saying that the story was inspired by Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
Even if I remember wrong, there are still strong parallels that point to that being the case.

This is canon now.

Not to mention that he could have fulfilled his goals any dang time he wanted to but didn't for... reasons.

I haven't read the book, but I know it's a massively big story with a metric fuck tonne of characters, so I expect the idea of a wildcard nation has a lot more oppertunity to breath there. Because Claude's wildcard status never actually comes in to play. He vanishes from the story because of the one lord deployment limit, but there's never a real break down between the alliance and kingdom (and this is somehow despite the fact that they actively fight each other on Gronder!?).

Edited February 24, 2020 by Jotari

[Ottservia]

45 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Celica is not a good or intelligently-written character.

I’d actually argue that Celica is the best written character in SoV. Because not only does she really help perpetuate the themes of kindness and compassion that mila stands for but she’s also punished for taking those things too far. She actively grows from experiencing the flaws of her ideals and it works for the most part.

[vanguard333]

37 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I’d actually argue that Celica is the best written character in SoV. Because not only does she really help perpetuate the themes of kindness and compassion that mila stands for but she’s also punished for taking those things too far. She actively grows from experiencing the flaws of her ideals and it works for the most part.

She's certainly far better-written than Alm; that's for sure. 

 

1 hour ago, Etheus said:

The routine lack of dedicated lance infantry classes is unacceptable.

I think most people will agree with this one; a lot of people want to see soldier/halberdier/sentinel come back. Personally, I hope that, in the next FE game, there's a soldier promotion called Commander that specializes in lances and authority. 

[Shrimpica]

2 hours ago, Etheus said:

Yuri is what Claude should have been.

Yuri is what people wanted Claude to be, not what he should've been. People really had a weird image of Claude.

 

[Fabulously Olivier]

19 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Yuri is what people wanted Claude to be, not what he should've been. People really had a weird image of Claude.

 

I am not at all sure what aspects of Claude you are referring to when you imply that Claude should not be what Yuri is.

 

Claude was presented to us as a trickster, a scoundrel, an outsider, and a genius tactician. Yuri is all of these things (or at least the first three that we can prove), while Claude largely loses these qualities in part 2 to become a generic, albeit ethnically and mechanically distinct FE lord. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Etheus

[Shrimpica]

4 minutes ago, Etheus said:

while Claude largely loses these qualities in part 2 to become a generi

He 'loses these qualities' because he develops, and trusts more in his friends and finally has a place to belong. Yet even in Part 2 he isn't generic. He is still has his goals, he orders his friends to retreat when on losing side, and retreats himself, instead of fighitng to the death in non-VW routes.

He is stilll a trickster and a genius tactician. He wants to create a world where there are no outsiders, so of course the outsider thing isn't as relevant in Part 2.

Claude grew from a mistrusting outsider to someone who belongs that doesn't want anyone to be an outsider.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Shrimperor

[Alastor15243]

32 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

He 'loses these qualities' because he develops, and trusts more in his friends and finally has a place to belong. Yet even in Part 2 he isn't generic. He is still has his goals, he orders his friends to retreat when on losing side, and retreats himself, instead of fighitng to the death in non-VW routes.

He is stilll a trickster and a genius tactician. He wants to create a world where there are no outsiders, so of course the outsider thing isn't as relevant in Part 2.

Claude grew from a mistrusting outsider to someone who belongs that doesn't want anyone to be an outsider.

When exactly does he make this "growth"? Over the five years we don't see?

[Fabulously Olivier]

2 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

When exactly does he make this "growth"? Over the five years we don't see?

My reply is "yes, and that's the entire problem."