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What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?


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9 hours ago, Ottservia said:

By the definition of nuanced posed in which we were discussing yes it is provable. It’s objective fact that Camilla’s bust is designed to make her look sexy. Cause it is a fact that people are attracted to big boobs. It’s meant to appeal to that attraction. If you don’t have that attraction then it’s not gonna work for you. That is subjective opinion and preference. What isn’t subjective is the fact that she designed to be sexy. I mean why else would she be designed with big boobs and visible panties with an entire cutscene dedicated to panning shots of her ass and tits. There’s a clear intent being made there and every aspect of the character’s design is meant to convey that. That fact can’t be denied but whether or not it’s attractive to you personally is up to your personal taste.

I have no doubt that Camilla is designed to look sexy. Other characters I do question if they're actually designed to look sexy even when they're drawn with big showy boobs, like the characters from Kill La Kill. But that's neither here nor there, because even if we take it as a given that Camilla is designed to look sexy as an objective fact, that doesn't mean she is sexy as an objective fact. Just like if a character is deisgned to be funny, it doesn't make them objectively funny, and if a character is designed to be nuanced, it doesn't make them objectively nuanced.

9 hours ago, eclipse said:

This is the "Unpopular FE opinion thread" not "what is the definition of nuance".

Hasty response above. I'll say no more no the matter. But I'm open in taking this conversation to a general thread.

6 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

Except that Awakenings supports don't work that way? I understand if you were being theoretical, but again, very few conversations in Awakening actually focus on the characters gimmicks.

Yes, I was being theoretical. My point, probably better expressed at the end of your post, is that Awakening leans into the gimmicks way harder than any other entry and that can make them feel one note and cliche. Whether they are or not isn't really the point as by that point as a player to whom it doesn't work has already given up caring if they are.

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7 hours ago, eclipse said:

This is a "nature vs. nurture" argument, but alas, it's well beyond the scope of this thread.  Eliwood and Hector illustrate this in their C support, where Hector falls asleep in class and Eliwood teases him about it.  Such things aren't brought about by any sort of event in their life, that's just the way they are.

even disregarding the whole Nature vs Nurture conflict, The best way to showcase a character's personality is how they interact with other characters and the world around them. You can gleam a lot from the subtle details in how a character acts and reacts to different situations which what helps define their personality

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36 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

even disregarding the whole Nature vs Nurture conflict, The best way to showcase a character's personality is how they interact with other characters and the world around them. You can gleam a lot from the subtle details in how a character acts and reacts to different situations which what helps define their personality

Remember that the curtains may very well be blue because the author thought it was pretty.  Same goes for any other media, especially video games.

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9 hours ago, eclipse said:

Enemy-only witches were not fun to deal with, which is why I haven't bothered starting another SoV run.

I had no idea anyone actually thought that BS they pulled was "strategy", in the first place!

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24 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Remember that the curtains may very well be blue because the author thought it was pretty.  Same goes for any other media, especially video games.

I don’t see what’s so productive about downplaying an author’s work on the basis that they are “too stupid” to think of it but whatever. Any interpretation of a text is valid so long as you can provide sufficient evidence from the text to back up your claim. I’m just saying a character’s personality is usually shown through how they act and react to things. A kind and sweet cinnamon bun character is going to have a different demeanor and way of speech than one who is loud and abrasive. There’s a reason Robin refers to himself with “Boku” in Japanese while Grima uses “Ware”. One is more soft and kind while the other is more mysterious and can also mean “we” which could be a reference to how Grima is a reflection or a part of Robin. This is based on my very limited knowledge on Japanese pronouns mind you so keep that in mind.

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5 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I don’t see what’s so productive about downplaying an author’s work on the basis that they are “too stupid” to think of it but whatever. Any interpretation of a text is valid so long as you can provide sufficient evidence from the text to back up your claim. I’m just saying a character’s personality is usually shown through how they act and react to things. A kind and sweet cinnamon bun character is going to have a different demeanor and way of speech than one who is loud and abrasive. There’s a reason Robin refers to himself with “Boku” in Japanese while Grima uses “Ware”. One is more soft and kind while the other is more mysterious and can also mean “we” which could be a reference to how Grima is a reflection or a part of Robin. This is based on my very limited knowledge on Japanese pronouns mind you so keep that in mind.

. . .okay, you missed the point.

You can talk yourself into whatever symbolism you want.  It's going to be your interpretation.  If the author is silent on it, then you're free to have that opinion, and others may very will disagree with it, and that's how the world is.  If the author says "the curtains are blue because I said so", then the author's word > your interpretation.

When you tell people that your interpretation is the reason why it's good, and they disagree, that's when continuing to insist that it's good based on your interpretation is a bad thing.  Which is kinda what you're doing at this point.

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2 minutes ago, eclipse said:

. . .okay, you missed the point.

You can talk yourself into whatever symbolism you want.  It's going to be your interpretation.  If the author is silent on it, then you're free to have that opinion, and others may very will disagree with it, and that's how the world is.  If the author says "the curtains are blue because I said so", then the author's word > your interpretation.

When you tell people that your interpretation is the reason why it's good, and they disagree, that's when continuing to insist that it's good based on your interpretation is a bad thing.  Which is kinda what you're doing at this point.

On that I can agree. You can lay out the facts as much as you want. Doesn’t mean anyone is gonna agree with you on how you perceive something. What makes something “good” or “bad” is mostly a subjective point. I just want to lay out the facts and discuss what those things mean in the greater context. What’s fact is that an idea is being presented. What isn’t is whether or not that makes it “good” on that I think we can agree. For as surprising as it is, I do not believe in death of the author to a point anyway

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2 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

On that I can agree. You can lay out the facts as much as you want. Doesn’t mean anyone is gonna agree with you on how you perceive something. What makes something “good” or “bad” is mostly a subjective point. I just want to lay out the facts and discuss what those things mean in the greater context. What’s fact is that an idea is being presented. What isn’t is whether or not that makes it “good” on that I think we can agree. For as surprising as it is, I do not believe in death of the author to a point anyway

This is the kind of thing you need to show, not tell.

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5 minutes ago, eclipse said:

This is the kind of thing you need to show, not tell.

Perhaps I’m not that self-aware enough then. I think the problem here in regards to the argument with @Jotari earlier is equating the terms Nuance and “good”. When looking at it objectively nuance isn’t necessarily a good thing when taken as something objective. It’s not a bad thing either just something that exists. If you view it as a good thing then fine but you don’t have to as that point is subjective. Anyway, that’s all I’ll say on that for now. No need to continue the dead conversation any further.
 

As for another unpopular opinion I hold. I generally prefer fates to 3H even the story and characters. Fates just feels more complete as a narrative to me. 3H’s story just feels unfinished and unsatisfying which is a feeling I never got with fits but that’s just me

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1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

I generally prefer fates to 3H even the story and characters. Fates just feels more complete as a narrative to me. 3H’s story just feels unfinished and unsatisfying which is a feeling I never got with fits but that’s just me.

This is a perfectly valid opinion, actually. I love Three Houses to death, but it just felt way too straight and without any obvious moral choices. It's just "pick a side, everyone else is the badguys." Plus, so many maps were re-used, some even three times in a single playthrough. Fates, however, only used each map once per playthrough, and your choice of side actually felt impactful. You could side with a family that you've never met, but are clearly opposing the biggest threat to the continent, but you'd be betraying the people who have loved you for your entire life. On the other hand, siding with your false family means betraying your homeland, and teaming up with a tyrant to take over your own home country. (Or you could just grab your pole-dancing cousin and jump in a hole, but we don't talk about that one.)

"Choice" is something Fire Emblem usually fails to write well, but while I won't deny that Fates was a bit of a crapshow, it at least managed to make each side feel like a complete, seperate narrative. Three Houses literally has the exact same story during the first half of the game, and even in part 2 it feels kinda samey. As for the characters, I feel like the problem with 3H's cast is that they were too generic. Like, half the cast is boring and the other half has a straight-up interesting character. Hm, who would I be more likely to use, the peaceful, friendly Mercedes or the reserved, troubled, and shy Marianne? An edgy swordsman like Felix, or a devoted one like Catherine? (Hint: the answers are Marianne and Felix.)

This doesn't mean Fates has no boring characters; I mean, Hana's in this cast, and I don't think I can remember a single notable personality trait about her that isn't that she likes to train. It's just that more of the cast has a personality in this game than the more recent entry. The Conquest path literally gives you a bombastic, over-the-top dark magician, a yandere sister, a werewolf, and a flat-out serial killer, and I love all of them to death. Meanwhile Birthright has such gems as a tsundere tribalist, a fashion designer, the king of nihlists, and the best archer this series has ever produced as far as I'm concerned. None of these units are perfect, of course; Camilla and ESPECIALLY Peri have their fair share of haters, Rinkah is overall just glossed over at times, and Takumi is among Fire Emblem's most controversial characters of all time. But I wouldn't trade them for a class of kids my age any day, especially since Fates' roster is way more solid than the story is- and we just established that the story is kinda better than that of 3H.

So in a nutshell: I agree with you wholeheartedly.

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3 hours ago, Jotari said:

I have no doubt that Camilla is designed to look sexy. Other characters I do question if they're actually designed to look sexy even when they're drawn with big showy boobs, like the characters from Kill La Kill. But that's neither here nor there, because even if we take it as a given that Camilla is designed to look sexy as an objective fact, that doesn't mean she is sexy as an objective fact. Just like if a character is deisgned to be funny, it doesn't make them objectively funny, and if a character is designed to be nuanced, it doesn't make them objectively nuanced.

 

I'd argue that whether someone finds Camilla sexy would be an objective fact but the question whether she actually is isn't even subjective but meaningless if we are being philosophically consistent but that's being pedantic.  Micaiah is more sexier than Camilla fight me. It is meaningless because it obviously depends on the person. The same would apply to which FE game is the best or whatever. It can never be an objective fact that one game is better than another although it can be objectively true that one game is more popular and well liked than another.  

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2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I think the problem here in regards to the argument with @Jotari earlier is equating the terms Nuance and “good”. 

I know I said no more and this topic, but can I just make it clear that I wasn't saying that in the slightest and outright literally said that wasn't my argument. I don't want to reopen the whole can of worms again. But just, like, for posterity.

On 5/27/2020 at 3:31 PM, Jotari said:

I am not equating nuance to enjoyment quality. That's not a battle you need to fight. Finding something both nuanced and boring is something I readily believe is possible. It's my opinion on basically every movie Hollywood churns out.

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58 minutes ago, Icelerate said:
Micaiah is more sexier than Camilla

I agree.

Does that count as an unpopular opinion? I'm not sure.
Come to think of it, neither Camilla nor Charlotte nor Tharja is attractive to me. There's something about their faces that just bothers me to no end.

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25 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Worse than Deen vs Sonia?

You didn't have to buy two versions of SoV just so that you could choose between Deen and Sonia!

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51 minutes ago, eclipse said:

You didn't have to buy two versions of SoV just so that you could choose between Deen and Sonia!

So are we just ignoring the existence of Revalations then?

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1 hour ago, eclipse said:

You didn't have to buy two versions of SoV just so that you could choose between Deen and Sonia!

Echoes is hardly one to get a free pass for shitty business practices. 20 bucks for an entire separate game is a bargain. Meanwhile Echoes' DLC is so overpriced you have to spend 15 bucks just to unlock all the final promoted classes.

Also, more to the point, Rise of the Deliverance costs 65% of the cost of getting the other (good) Fates story route while only being 4 chapters long.

Edited by Alastor15243
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3 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

I agree.

Does that count as an unpopular opinion? I'm not sure.
Come to think of it, neither Camilla nor Charlotte nor Tharja is attractive to me. There's something about their faces that just bothers me to no end.

While she's not my type I can at least appreciate why Camilla could be attractive.

But Tharja just looks awful to me. She's supposed to be complete eye candy but the way her sprite clutches her book, her paleness and her expression gives me more the impression of a nervous, nerdy,  neurotic coffee addict then any sort of eye candy.

Quote

This doesn't mean Fates has no boring characters; I mean, Hana's in this cast, and I don't think I can remember a single notable personality trait about her that isn't that she likes to train.

I can name another trait of her. She likes to demonize kidnap victims and considers them to be horrible people. She doesn't seem very good at emphasizing with anyone other then Sakura. I guess that's a character trait, even if its a terrible one. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor
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18 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I can name another trait of her. She likes to demonize kidnap victims and considers them to be horrible people. She doesn't seem very good at emphasizing with anyone other then Sakura. I guess that's a character trait, even if its a terrible one. 

Empathizing, you mean? Yeah, that support was... utterly infuriating.

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12 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

I had no idea anyone actually thought that BS they pulled was "strategy", in the first place!

Any enemy that can teleport to any point on the map and attack immediately after is not fair game design, if you ask me, unless the player has the same ability. Siege tomes have always been a challenge to avoid, but there are strategic ways of dealing with them, and the enemies using them can't move to any place on the map that they want to.

9 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Micaiah is more sexier than Camilla fight me.

There are dozens of female FE characters I could list as being far more attractive than Camilla, Tharja, Charlotte, or any of the fanservice characters (starting with the two in my sig). Fanservice isn't attractive to me personally. If anything, I think it's offensive and is a cheap way of trying to draw in fans to buy a game.

Edited by twilitfalchion
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4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Echoes is hardly one to get a free pass for shitty business practices. 20 bucks for an entire separate game is a bargain. Meanwhile Echoes' DLC is so overpriced you have to spend 15 bucks just to unlock all the final promoted classes.

Also, more to the point, Rise of the Deliverance costs 65% of the cost of getting the other (good) Fates story route while only being 4 chapters long.

Echoes dlc prices always seemed damn right extortionate, yet I had never seen anyone complain about it nearly as much as the Fates paths. Whilst Fates was certainly scummy with having to buy multiple paths, I always felt it was at least more worth it for the price compared to what you got from the Echoes dlc.

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12 minutes ago, Frenzify said:

Echoes dlc prices always seemed damn right extortionate, yet I had never seen anyone complain about it nearly as much as the Fates paths. Whilst Fates was certainly scummy with having to buy multiple paths, I always felt it was at least more worth it for the price compared to what you got from the Echoes dlc.

Honestly, I question the premise that Fates is scummy at all. Yes, it's annoying that they paywall a route split and expect you to choose a side before you've even played the game, but from a financial perspective?

Seriously, are the games worth 40 bucks or are they not?

I maintain that Birthright and Conquest both very much are. They're each full games in their own right, with full campaigns. Getting two Fire Emblem games for the price of a game and a half is a bargain, not a scummy business practice. Hell, even if you add in Revelation and dub it completely devoid of any value whatsoever, that's still two games for the price of two games.

Edited by Alastor15243
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7 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

I agree.

Does that count as an unpopular opinion? I'm not sure.
Come to think of it, neither Camilla nor Charlotte nor Tharja is attractive to me. There's something about their faces that just bothers me to no end.

for me it's when they try to highlight a characters  ''fanserviceness'' too much it turns me off.

Yeah, i get it, you are hot. Anything else to you?

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Oh fuck. Camilla's and Charlotte's fanservice in Fates Conquest proper was really out of place. Attractive? Yes. Appropriate? Not really in artistic/design aspects. At least DLCs are optional. At leasr Heroes is...well, meant to be "fanservice-for-veterans-and-garner-interest-for-newcomers" type of game. And at least the fanservices in Tokyo Mirage Sessions at least made better sense with the setting than Fates did.

Pretty popular opinion, admittedly: Come to think about it, the fanservice and story in Fates Conquest is just atrocious. By the looks of the forum, not only did the story not made sense, I'm also having this impression that it didn't exactly break new ground by the looks of some of the posts here. Not as popular: At least TMSFE's story was generally fun, and was generally servicable.

Edited by henrymidfields
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