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What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?


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47 minutes ago, OdysseyNeptune said:

Even before promoting, Roy is still a surprisingly potent unit.

I mean...

On average, Roy has 12.6 strength,  14.6 speed and 9.75 defense at level 20. That's not too great, and his meh bases don't really compensate. In addition to that, even if he reached level 20 really quickly, he's staying there for a really long time. Even then, his promotion is really bad and his con will always be pretty low. In comparison, Lance, another unit who joins in chapter 1, has a horse and if he promotes at level ten in chapter seven, (when Roy's probably still eight-nine at the highest,) has 10.6 strength, 14.5 speed, and 10.8 defense.  Not to mention that his base speed allows him to be potent and double right off the bat whereas Roy needs a speed level up in the first chapter to double much of anything- And Lance isn't even one of the best units in the game.

Although in Normal Mode, Roy can be passable. In HM, he has a fair chance to be OHKO'd or ORKO'd by enemy wyverns or nomadic troopers.

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11 minutes ago, Benice said:

I mean...

On average, Roy has 12.6 strength,  14.6 speed and 9.75 defense at level 20. That's not too great, and his meh bases don't really compensate. In addition to that, even if he reached level 20 really quickly, he's staying there for a really long time. Even then, his promotion is really bad and his con will always be pretty low. In comparison, Lance, another unit who joins in chapter 1, has a horse and if he promotes at level ten in chapter seven, (when Roy's probably still eight-nine at the highest,) has 10.6 strength, 14.5 speed, and 10.8 defense.  Not to mention that his base speed allows him to be potent and double right off the bat whereas Roy needs a speed level up in the first chapter to double much of anything- And Lance isn't even one of the best units in the game.

Although in Normal Mode, Roy can be passable. In HM, he has a fair chance to be OHKO'd or ORKO'd by enemy wyverns or nomadic troopers.

I don't think Roy's promotion is all that terrible. +4 strength and +5 resistance is nothing to sneeze at, espcially when you factor in the +5 def and res he now gets from the Binding Blade. And he does get enough Con to use the Binding Blade without speed loss. He won't be making a killing with Durrandal (like father like son), but that's about the only sword he's slowed down by, he doesn't need massive con for the lightest weapon type. Throw a Silver Sword, a Wyrmslayer and a Killing Edge to balance out the Binding Blade's low durability as player phase side arms and he's more than capable of taking on Binding Blade's rather easy final maps.

The real thing his promotion sucks at is giving him a new sprite outside of the Binding Blade.

Edited by Jotari
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1 minute ago, Benice said:

I mean...

On average, Roy has 12.6 strength,  14.6 speed and 9.75 defense at level 20. That's not too great, and his meh bases don't really compensate. In addition to that, even if he reached level 20 really quickly, he's staying there for a really long time. Even then, his promotion is really bad and his con will always be pretty low. In comparison, Lance, another unit who joins in chapter 1, has a horse and if he promotes at level ten in chapter seven, (when Roy's probably still eight-nine at the highest,) has 10.6 strength, 14.5 speed, and 10.8 defense.  Not to mention that his base speed allows him to be potent and double right off the bat whereas Roy needs a speed level up in the first chapter to double much of anything- And Lance isn't even one of the best units in the game.

Although in Normal Mode, Roy can be passable. In HM, he has a fair chance to be OHKO'd or ORKO'd by enemy wyverns or nomadic troopers.

I completed FE6 in Normal Mode. Sure, Roy was much weaker than my other units because I almost didn't use him at all before promoting (although I got him to lvl 20 in like 3 chapters). But what I'm saying is that Roy is much stronger than people usually say. He's often thought of a weak unit, but he's not weak. Sure, he can't destroy every enemy, but he can hold his own.

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1 hour ago, OdysseyNeptune said:

I completed FE6 in Normal Mode. Sure, Roy was much weaker than my other units because I almost didn't use him at all before promoting (although I got him to lvl 20 in like 3 chapters). But what I'm saying is that Roy is much stronger than people usually say. He's often thought of a weak unit, but he's not weak. Sure, he can't destroy every enemy, but he can hold his own.

He can certainly survive just fine in normal- He will really struggle to do so in hard mode. Keeping him near the front lines isn't a very good idea and he probably won't survive more than two rounds of combat from quite a few enemies. Heck, he may even be one-shot by wyvern knights and particularly in Sacae is really bad due to his passable speed not cutting it for the zippy nomads and swordmasters.

Believe me, when I did normal, I thought Roy's problems were vastly overblown. I was really surprised by how large the difficulty jump was from Normal to hard-Marcus is essential for clearing the first map and you'd risk death to do it without him. Roy really suffers from HM in particular as his level 20 stats won't be able to carry him until his promotion.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

The real thing his promotion sucks at is giving him a new sprite outside of the Binding Blade.

Accurate.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I don't think Roy's promotion is all that terrible. +4 strength and +5 resistance is nothing to sneeze at, espcially when you factor in the +5 def and res he now gets from the Binding Blade.

Doesn't he only get a +2 to strength?

Then again, I am using the pitfall wiki.

Regardless, my main point about his weak promotion is that he's still a swordlocked, footlocked unit who will be vastly under leveled compared to the rest of your army. Aside from raw stats, he doesn't get much.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

And he does get enough Con to use the Binding Blade without speed loss. He won't be making a killing with Durrandal (like father like son), but that's about the only sword he's slowed down by, he doesn't need massive con for the lightest weapon type.

Eight con does get him slowed down by quite a few, doesn't it? IIRC Steel and silver swords will do so, as well as the armorslayer and Blades. Not that he'd be using steel or blades, though.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Throw a Silver Sword, a Wyrmslayer and a Killing Edge to balance out the Binding Blade's low durability as player phase side arms and he's more than capable of taking on Binding Blade's rather easy final maps.

I presume you mean the good ending exclusive maps, in which he can certainly do well. However, I don't really think that it's fair to solely assess a unit's performance in endgame-Getting to that point is often more where you see a unit's strengths and weaknesses.

Edited by Benice
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33 minutes ago, Benice said:

He can certainly survive just fine in normal- He will really struggle to do so in hard mode. Keeping him near the front lines isn't a very good idea and he probably won't survive more than two rounds of combat from quite a few enemies. Heck, he may even be one-shot by wyvern knights and particularly in Sacae is really bad due to his passable speed not cutting it for the zippy nomads and swordmasters.

Believe me, when I did normal, I thought Roy's problems were vastly overblown. I was really surprised by how large the difficulty jump was from Normal to hard-Marcus is essential for clearing the first map and you'd risk death to do it without him. Roy really suffers from HM in particular as his level 20 stats won't be able to carry him until his promotion

I went Ilia, so I can't really say about that. (Fuck Sue and Shin, Wolt is the best bow user imo, and I used Shanna quite a lot)

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2 hours ago, Benice said:

Doesn't he only get a +2 to strength?

Ah yes, it is 2 strength. I was going by the Fire Emblem wiki which I guess isn't a good idea.

Then again, I am using the pitfall wiki.

Regardless, my main point about his weak promotion is that he's still a swordlocked, footlocked unit who will be vastly under leveled compared to the rest of your army. Aside from raw stats, he doesn't get much.

No, but the stat bonuses are rather higher than normal for promotion, especially that res. He doesn't get a crit bonus, a horse or an extra weapon, but that doesn't make his promotion useless as those stats (combined with the Binding Blade) do make a difference in pushing him back into usable territory.

Eight con does get him slowed down by quite a few, doesn't it? IIRC Steel and silver swords will do so, as well as the armorslayer and Blades. Not that he'd be using steel or blades, though.

You really have absolutely no reason to be using Steel Swords on him and this point and no, Silver Swords don't slow him down. They're 8 weight, just like his con. Armourslayers will lose him 3 points of speed, but considering you'll only want to use them against enemy generals (are there even any enemy generals after his promotion? Maybe one or two in The Never Ending Dream) Roy will still double them. 8 con isn't terrible at all for a sword wielder unless you want them using the Brave Sword or Durrandel. He does lose one point of speed on the Lancereaver which you might want to give him though.

I presume you mean the good ending exclusive maps, in which he can certainly do well. However, I don't really think that it's fair to solely assess a unit's performance in endgame-Getting to that point is often more where you see a unit's strengths and weaknesses.

I'm not assessing his usefulness as a unit overall. I'm assessing the usefulness of his promotion, which given how late it is, can only be discussed in the context of how it helps him fair in the final few maps.

 

Edited by Jotari
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I think this might be unpopular (Since Awakening is the popular one everyone recommends.) but luck-based levels are kinda terrible in strategy games.

FE Awakening has it the extreme (since pretty much everyone is terrible at the start and you're swamped by enemy units.) but in general, I dislike enemy crits and other mechanics where you can do everything right but still lose because that one dude got a 2 percent crit chance on Robin, in the very first level. (Which happened to me twice.), sure have boss enemies have crits sure but regular enemies should not be capable of instantly killing you nor should a battle plan ever have to rely on hoping your units can constantly dodge enemy attacks around 50 percent chance.

Same goes for any Netural NPCs who need to survive/are guarding villages, they should either have really high stats and good weapons or not be done at all since then again, it's RNG to actually do it right.

There's no actual strategy when unavoidable 50-chance to hit attacks can get someone killed through no fault of your own because the current map has over 10 enemies and they all rush you at once.

Edited by Samz707
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1 hour ago, Samz707 said:

I think this might be unpopular (Since Awakening is the popular one everyone recommends.) but luck-based levels are kinda terrible in strategy games.

If you are talking about what a joke Lunatic is, I agree with you. I even say that Awakening is not even a strategy game on any difficulty setting, but a JRPG on a grid. I enjoy it for reasons other than “strategy.”


 

1 hour ago, Samz707 said:

but in general, I dislike enemy crits and other mechanics where you can do everything right but still lose because that one dude got a 2 percent crit chance on Robin, in the very first level. (Which happened to me twice.)

I disagree with you in this example, however. This is not “luck-based” at all. You were informed that you had a 2 % chance of dying and you still took the risk and lost the bet. Twice! How is the game responsible for this?! It clearly warned you about what could happen, you just ignored it and tested your chances. Your decision relied on luck, the game did not. It happened exactly what could have happened.

I for one love that chance is represented on every move. Just like in real life, there are things beyond your control.

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2 hours ago, Samz707 said:

I think this might be unpopular (Since Awakening is the popular one everyone recommends.) but luck-based levels are kinda terrible in strategy games.

FE Awakening has it the extreme (since pretty much everyone is terrible at the start and you're swamped by enemy units.) but in general, I dislike enemy crits and other mechanics where you can do everything right but still lose because that one dude got a 2 percent crit chance on Robin, in the very first level. (Which happened to me twice.), sure have boss enemies have crits sure but regular enemies should not be capable of instantly killing you nor should a battle plan ever have to rely on hoping your units can constantly dodge enemy attacks around 50 percent chance.

Same goes for any Netural NPCs who need to survive/are guarding villages, they should either have really high stats and good weapons or not be done at all since then again, it's RNG to actually do it right.

There's no actual strategy when unavoidable 50-chance to hit attacks can get someone killed through no fault of your own because the current map has over 10 enemies and they all rush you at once.

I think on the crit issue there it's less that crits happen and more how devestating they are. I've been calling for awhile now for crit damage to be nerfed from times three to times two (with skills available to increase it to times three for units like swordmasters who rely on them).

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I think on the crit issue there it's less that crits happen and more how devestating they are. I've been calling for awhile now for crit damage to be nerfed from times three to times two (with skills available to increase it to times three for units like swordmasters who rely on them).

 

 

But then the imbalance is just laid bare, isn't it? Speed would grant a guaranteed doubling of damage, while skill would just offer a chance at it. It's already ridiculous, but that would just make it more so.

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21 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

But then the imbalance is just laid bare, isn't it? Speed would grant a guaranteed doubling of damage, while skill would just offer a chance at it. It's already ridiculous, but that would just make it more so.

I don't know what you're getting at here, one is based solely on statistical comparison while the other is a luck-based mechanic.

In a strategy game.

It's already ridiculous how powerful the latter is, and I'd go farther than Jotari with changing it. Only double damage with lower crit rates overall, but larger boosts for the tools meant to fish for them, is what I'd call for.

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14 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

I don't know what you're getting at here, one is based solely on statistical comparison while the other is a luck-based mechanic.

My point is that if this change were implemented, then the secondary effects of these stats would be even more imbalanced. Under this change, if you specialize in speed, your reward is doubled damage, while if you specialize in skill, your reward is a chance of doubled damage. At least under the current system, a crit rate will sometimes give you more damage output than doubling. Skill was already worse, but this would just make it objectively worse, with pretty much no advantages in damage output over speed at all.

Edited by Alastor15243
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30 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

I don't know what you're getting at here, one is based solely on statistical comparison while the other is a luck-based mechanic.

In a strategy game.

Where the performance of your units depends - 0%-growth runs aside - on %-based growths in combination with fixed stat weapons.

30 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

It's already ridiculous how powerful the latter is, and I'd go farther than Jotari with changing it. Only double damage with lower crit rates overall, but larger boosts for the tools meant to fish for them, is what I'd call for.

How many units are valued for their ability to double the enemy and which units are valued for their ability to 1HKO-crit the enemy? For the latter I can only - not having played the games or used these specific builds - think of Rutger I believe (who also doubles no?) and some Vantage + 100% crit + infinite range gambit setups.  The latter looks like a decent amount of work to get going, I have not played Rutgers game so no comment, while Doubling simply requires a unit to surpass a specific threshold.

How is the occasional kill (occasional relative to 100% critrate) stronger than the potentially guaranteed 2HKO? 

Unless the problem is enemies critting your units (which @Samz707 and  @Jotari implied), in which case all that’s needed in my eyes would actually be removing the LCK and probably the Skill Rally too and replace them with individual Rallys that strongly affect HIT/CRIT and their Avoid counterparts, as well as Aura Skills such as Manuela (I believe she´s the one with CritAvo, though why not make it part of a support class kit to offer CritAvoid) and potentially weaponry with similar effects as shown with Bronze weapons in Fates.

 

Edited by Imuabicus
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12 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

Unless the problem is enemies critting your units, in which case all that’s needed in my eyes would actually be removing the LCK and probably the Skill Rally too and replace them with individual Rallys that strongly affect HIT/CRIT and their Avoid counterparts, as well as Aura Skills such as Manuela (I believe she´s the one with CritAvo, though why not make it part of a support class kit to offer CritAvoid) and potentially weaponry with similar effects as shown with Bronze weapons in Fates.

Yeah, crits aren't a problem in Fates for exactly this reason. There are so many ways to mitigate this issue with crit avoid buffs from various different sources.

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Queen Mikoto is not sympathetic at all.  Her magic mind-control barrier that suppresses the free will of Nohrians is existentially horrifying, and her utter lack of remorse for using it is thoroughly heinous.

Sure, I get that Nohrians are the aggressors in an utterly pointless war but that doesn't make it any less creepy.  Kinda makes you wonder if it really does just affect Nohrians or if Hoshido has been using this sort of thing to forcibly maintain peace for generations by keeping would-be insurgents docile...

Edited by Samven
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24 minutes ago, Samven said:

Queen Mikoto is not sympathetic at all.  Her magic mind-control barrier that suppresses the free will of Nohrians is existentially horrifying, and her utter lack of remorse for using it is thoroughly heinous.

Sure, I get that Nohrians are the aggressors in an utterly pointless war but that doesn't make it any less creepy.  Kinda makes you wonder if it really does just affect Nohrians or if Hoshido has been using this sort of thing to forcibly maintain peace for generations by keeping would-be insurgents docile...

Back when I was doing a sort of improv "abridged series" of my first playthrough of Fates, I actually had my avatar take this knowledge (along with the fact that she looks way too young to be a teenager's mother and doesn't look like him at all) and assume that Mikoto was completely insane and had brainwashed a bunch of unrelated people into thinking they were her children despite looking nothing like her, and was trying to do the same to him.

Edited by Alastor15243
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19 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Back when I was doing a sort of improv "abridged series" of my first playthrough of Fates, I actually had my avatar take this knowledge (along with the fact that she looks way too young to be a teenager's mother and doesn't look like him at all) and assume that Mikoto was completely insane and had brainwashed a bunch of unrelated people into thinking they were her children despite looking nothing like her, and was trying to do the same to him.

That would legitimately make way too much sense.

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If I recall correctly, there's such a disparity between both nations when it comes to things like the weather, living conditions, crop-suitability, and other stuff, it actually makes the existence of the barrier even worse. So most of Nohr struggles while Hoshido seems to sit idly, as it seems the hostilities between both nations are in part that Norh wants some of the bountiful share Hoshido has, but the latter refuses, or something like that. The whole Garon-Sumeragi meeting in Cheve was supposedly to finally reach a negotiation on the matter... but we know how that ended out. So the barriers give Hoshido a way lopsided position to bargain with.

Which also quite tells how Garon needed to pull that stunt to kidnap Corrin, while Hodisho could simply send someone to Nohr to kidnap Azura in retaliation. Which is also a bit terrifying. Just imagine, Hoshido could easily kidnap Nohrians, and then any rescue attempt would fail or be extremely hard due to the barrier as the would be rescuers couldn't resort to violence. Same for the kidnapped as that's also not an option if attempting to escape. Which is telling about Corrin's stay in Hoshido and what it took for Nohr to be able to do something about it. Now make the kidnapped children, easily capable of being swayed and indoctrinated, and...

All in all... yeah, I totally agree on the... implications about the barrier... *shudder*

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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2 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

My point is that if this change were implemented, then the secondary effects of these stats would be even more imbalanced. Under this change, if you specialize in speed, your reward is doubled damage, while if you specialize in skill, your reward is a chance of doubled damage. At least under the current system, a crit rate will sometimes give you more damage output than doubling. Skill was already worse, but this would just make it objectively worse, with pretty much no advantages in damage output over speed at all.

There are more productive ways to reduce the disparity between Speed and Skill, like giving the latter an objective function that isn't dependent on RNG. Or dropping the Skill stat altogether and redistribute its functions elsewhere, since they've already been doing that and stat-based Hit/Avo/etc. has been falling out of favor since the DS games.

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5 hours ago, starburst said:

If you are talking about what a joke Lunatic is, I agree with you. I even say that Awakening is not even a strategy game on any difficulty setting, but a JRPG on a grid. I enjoy it for reasons other than “strategy.”


 

I disagree with you in this example, however. This is not “luck-based” at all. You were informed that you had a 2 % chance of dying and you still took the risk and lost the bet. Twice! How is the game responsible for this?! It clearly warned you about what could happen, you just ignored it and tested your chances. Your decision relied on luck, the game did not. It happened exactly what could have happened.

I for one love that chance is represented on every move. Just like in real life, there are things beyond your control.

It's the very first level of the game, you really don't have that many options and I think we can all agree that an enemy who can instant-kill you on the very first level is kinda terrible game design.

And again, it keeps happening, Awakening loves having dudes with ranged weapons and crit-chances so there's pretty much no way to deal with them that doesn't risk someone getting instant killed (Such as Cavaliers with Javalins in the map battles.) so it reachs the point where you just use Frederick all the time with a powerful lance.

And this presents it's own problem in that I end up dealing with every boss the exact same way because RNG critical hits means that using anyone that isn't Frederick is a dumb idea, so the bosses get tedious since I'm not wearing them down with multiple units, all working together to bring this dude down. (Such as With guy's on thrones that you hit with magic and a dude infront of them to engage them in direct combat.), I just send my overpowered units in to solo them, which isn't fun when my strategy game with tons of units just boils down to using the overpowered guy constantly.

 

Edited by Samz707
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8 hours ago, starburst said:

I disagree with you in this example, however. This is not “luck-based” at all. You were informed that you had a 2 % chance of dying and you still took the risk and lost the bet. Twice! How is the game responsible for this?! It clearly warned you about what could happen, you just ignored it and tested your chances. Your decision relied on luck, the game did not. It happened exactly what could have happened.

I for one love that chance is represented on every move. Just like in real life, there are things beyond your control.

For me, chance/luck/RNG is interesting when it leads to contingency planning. I like having to think about what I do when something doesn't go to plan. For instance, if I form a strategy for a turn but it relies on some unit hitting an 80% hit, then I'm going to want to perform that attack first in my turn and have an alternate plan in mind for if it misses. Maybe if it misses I need to pull the unit back with rescue and then turtle up for a turn, rather than advancing as I had been planning, for instance. I enjoy this type of planning and controlled risk taking.

On the other hand, enemy crits can often be inherently impossible to recover from. If a unit dies, then they are lost forever (casual mode in newer titles excepted). If a main character dies, then it's game over. There's no contingency plan for this, nothing you can do to mitigate the bad luck if it happens, no interesting decisions. The only available options are to never attack anything that has even a 1% chance of a lethal crit on a unit you're unable or unwilling to lose, or to go ahead and do it anyway and be willing to reset if things go wrong. The former leads to very cautious gameplay that relies on using the same overpowered units or strategies repeaetedly, while the latter just comes down to luck. I find neither option fun or interesting.

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5 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

If I recall correctly, there's such a disparity between both nations when it comes to things like the weather, living conditions, crop-suitability, and other stuff, it actually makes the existence of the barrier even worse. So most of Nohr struggles while Hoshido seems to sit idly, as it seems the hostilities between both nations are in part that Norh wants some of the bountiful share Hoshido has, but the latter refuses, or something like that. The whole Garon-Sumeragi meeting in Cheve was supposedly to finally reach a negotiation on the matter... but we know how that ended out. So the barriers give Hoshido a way lopsided position to bargain with.

Which also quite tells how Garon needed to pull that stunt to kidnap Corrin, while Hodisho could simply send someone to Nohr to kidnap Azura in retaliation. Which is also a bit terrifying. Just imagine, Hoshido could easily kidnap Nohrians, and then any rescue attempt would fail or be extremely hard due to the barrier as the would be rescuers couldn't resort to violence. Same for the kidnapped as that's also not an option if attempting to escape. Which is telling about Corrin's stay in Hoshido and what it took for Nohr to be able to do something about it. Now make the kidnapped children, easily capable of being swayed and indoctrinated, and...

All in all... yeah, I totally agree on the... implications about the barrier... *shudder*

Fates is secretly propaganda for Free Trade.

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11 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

My point is that if this change were implemented, then the secondary effects of these stats would be even more imbalanced. Under this change, if you specialize in speed, your reward is doubled damage, while if you specialize in skill, your reward is a chance of doubled damage. At least under the current system, a crit rate will sometimes give you more damage output than doubling. Skill was already worse, but this would just make it objectively worse, with pretty much no advantages in damage output over speed at all.

Skill also has effects on accuracy and skill activation (in some games) too. It's not a great 1:1 comparison. Especially given units frequently specialize in both those stats simultaneously.

Edited by Jotari
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Playing without pair-up is the best and most balanced way to play Awakening. Pair-up unquestionably makes even mediocre units OP and trivializes what would normally be more challenging maps and enemies. Not using it makes the player more thoughtful about unit placement (as much as possible given Awakening's decision to mostly use open field maps). It's still a fairly easy game, but it helps even things out instead of pretty much curbstomping the entire game with a broken mechanic.

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30 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

Playing without pair-up is the best and most balanced way to play Awakening. Pair-up unquestionably makes even mediocre units OP and trivializes what would normally be more challenging maps and enemies. Not using it makes the player more thoughtful about unit placement (as much as possible given Awakening's decision to mostly use open field maps). It's still a fairly easy game, but it helps even things out instead of pretty much curbstomping the entire game with a broken mechanic.

While I can agree with this statement, i'm not so sure it's unpopular.

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