What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Jotari]

10 hours ago, TheChoZenOne said:

I think Edelgard is a fantastic character. A lot of people dislike her but I feel she is incredibly well written and a great 

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antagonist

I remember I lost my mind when I found out the twist of

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Her being the Flame Emperor

when I first played the game on Golden Deer. It was so unexpected. And her war speech following right after gave me goosebumps and I still remember just being in awe and at shock through out the entirety of it while watching that scene. It was such a well done twist and she lived up to being such a well done antagonist. My favorite in the series by far. Let me know what you guys think about Edelgard!!

I saw the twist coming a mile away because I played on Black Eagles which has a tonne of "Huh, I wonder where Edelgard is right now, oh look the Flame Emperor" moments. I'll never be able to play the other routes blind, but I feel the opposite problem would occur there where the twist is so completely out of the left field because Edelgard has basically no screen time in the other routes. One scene with Claude and a picture of the Enlightened one (why wasn't this in Black Eagles? The routes where you actually fight the Enlightened One?) and a couple of distant shots in Blue Lions where Dimitri's all "Should I talk to her? Nah." They did an atrocious job of integrating the other lords into White Clouds imo. And then they expect the emotional pay off later to connect when they die when in reality they're complete strangers to Byleth and a first time player.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

I saw the twist coming a mile away because I played on Black Eagles which has a tonne of "Huh, I wonder where Edelgard is right now, oh look the Flame Emperor" moments. I'll never be able to play the other routes blind, but I feel the opposite problem would occur there where the twist is so completely out of the left field because Edelgard has basically no screen time in the other routes. One scene with Claude and a picture of the Enlightened one (why wasn't this in Black Eagles? The routes where you actually fight the Enlightened One?) and a couple of distant shots in Blue Lions where Dimitri's all "Should I talk to her? Nah." They did an atrocious job of integrating the other lords into White Clouds imo. And then they expect the emotional pay off later to connect when they die when in reality they're complete strangers to Byleth and a first time player.

My first playthrough was Golden Deer, and I liked that the receal came out of nowhere. Black Eagles and Blue Lions both gave very strong hints, to say the least.

Re: bolded portion, I assume you mean "The Immaculate One"? "Enlightened One" is Byleth's exclusive promotion.

Yeah, Dimitri and Edelgard have a history, but only the former remembers it. And Claude is a stranger to them, due to his background as an outsider. The only time they're together is at the start of the game, which, um... did they ever bother to explain why all three Lords were traveling together?

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 7/27/2020 at 4:47 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

"General support quality is independent of the number of supports available."

The GBA games have a lot of poor supports, that people seem to forget about (like Wil-Raven and Dorcas-Vaida). And Echoes, while it has the fewest support conversations in the series, has some really weak ones (Tobin-Kliff and Faye-Silque come to mind).

Meanwhile, as much as there are cringey and bad supports in Fates, there are lots of good ones, too (Oboro-Takumi, Jakob-Mozu, Corrin-Reina, Ryoma-Xander, to name a few). And Three Houses, despite coming just behind Fateswakening in number of supports, has some of my favorites in the series (Dimitri-Marianne, Annette-Gilbert, Seteth-Ingrid, Hubert-Ferdinand all come to mind).

I agree with this incredibly strongly.

I recently went back and replayed Binding Blade. With the disclaimer that I did not see nearly all of them and with apologies to fans of the game's writing, I saw many supports that were just mind-numbingly bad. Shanna has multiple supports that consist of other characters telling her "you're a pegasus knight, you should watch out for arrows!" and Alan/Lance is so boring that I can't remember it despite getting every single playthrough because it rocks for gameplay. I think some people underestimate how much the average quality of support writing has increased over time.

There's a lot you could criticize about 3H but its support game is just amazing IMO, and I think that's a big part of how warm its reception has been.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

My first playthrough was Golden Deer, and I liked that the receal came out of nowhere. Black Eagles and Blue Lions both gave very strong hints, to say the least.

Re: bolded portion, I assume you mean "The Immaculate One"? "Enlightened One" is Byleth's exclusive promotion.

Yeah, Dimitri and Edelgard have a history, but only the former remembers it. And Claude is a stranger to them, due to his background as an outsider. The only time they're together is at the start of the game, which, um... did they ever bother to explain why all three Lords were traveling together?

All three of them are meant to be friends despite being from different houses. Look at how Claude and Dimitri talk when you save Claude in Azure Moon. This just doesn't come through at all in White Clouds. The reason it comes out of nowhere isn't because it's clever, it's because Edelgard doesn't even exist as a character up until that point. Even in Blue Lions you barely get to see her speak.

And uh yeah. Immaculate One. Silly me.

[Alastor15243]

The series should go back to having cute sprites representing the characters in map view, like in the 3DS games. Keep the 3D models to fight scenes and cutscenes.

Also, stupid, petty demand: make the loops of their idle animations sync with the beat of the music, so it looks like they're doing a cute little dance.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Alastor15243

[NinjaMonkey]

There hasn't been a good FE since Radiant Dawn.

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

7 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

There hasn't been a good FE since Radiant Dawn.

Legitimately this made me giggle. I think the 3DS games have their good parts but I wouldn't call any game since RD as good as RD either. I do find them fun to play through though... so long as I ignore their stories.

[Mars of Aritia]

I loved the red door blue door trick. made me feel like a genius when I figured it out on the first try lol. (and unlike most of the game, it makes sense if you think about it logically).

[Ottservia]

2 hours ago, DukeBox said:

I loved the red door blue door trick. made me feel like a genius when I figured it out on the first try lol. (and unlike most of the game, it makes sense if you think about it logically).

I personally really like that part from a thematic perspective as it really plays with those ideas of trust that Fates’s story leans into. Cause Mikoto safely guides you through the first two doors which makes you trust her but she betrays you during the last one. If you listen to her you’re punished for it because you just blindly trusted her without questioning it first which is wrong. If you don’t trust her and rely on your own judgement then you’re rewarded for it and are able to pass through relatively safely. You chose to rely on your own judgement and trust in yourself rather than just blindly following someone else which is what revelation is really. Corrin being able to trust themselves and not just blindly follow what others say like they do in BR and CQ. They’ve learned to doubt what people tell them and look gor the truth by themselves. It’s sn interesting chapter I find.

[GlitchWarrior]

On 8/5/2020 at 2:11 PM, Alastor15243 said:

The series should go back to having cute sprites representing the characters in map view, like in the 3DS games. Keep the 3D models to fight scenes and cutscenes.

Also, stupid, petty demand: make the loops of their idle animations sync with the beat of the music, so it looks like they're doing a cute little dance.

You know what? I agree. Actually, with more than just that, I'd like for the MAPS to be more colorful too, like on the GBA. I know there are people who stand against the cartoony aesthetics of GBAFE but I honestly prefer it to everything before or after. Maybe it's the way the sprites were designed. Actually... f--- it! Let's just make EVERYTHING GBA-like cartoony, the 3D angle is neat but personally I feel like Fire Emblem works best when the units you're using don't look as realistic.

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, GlitchWarrior said:

You know what? I agree. Actually, with more than just that, I'd like for the MAPS to be more colorful too, like on the GBA. I know there are people who stand against the cartoony aesthetics of GBAFE but I honestly prefer it to everything before or after. Maybe it's the way the sprites were designed. Actually... f--- it! Let's just make EVERYTHING GBA-like cartoony, the 3D angle is neat but personally I feel like Fire Emblem works best when the units you're using don't look as realistic.

I would love to see a modern attempt at purely 2D sprite graphics, GBA style. I've heard sprites can be more expensive than 3D models in some cases though, not less, but yeah, that would be so fun to have for at least one game so we can see if it's as good as we're imagining. Because christ, those GBA animations still hold up to this day.

[GlitchWarrior]

they could remaster (not remake, if they remake it they redo everything) FE7 in this day and age and people would eat that s--- up because despite its many flaws FE7 is still such a beloved game

[Samven]

FE7's story is good and I legitimately don't understand why people enjoy poking holes in it.

Also: Chrom and Sumia are perfectly fine as a couple, mates: Any guy who shows that much enthusiasm for eating pie is probably going to have a very happy marriage.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Samven

[Carter]

On 8/5/2020 at 3:11 PM, Alastor15243 said:

The series should go back to having cute sprites representing the characters in map view, like in the 3DS games. Keep the 3D models to fight scenes and cutscenes.

100% agree with this! I loved how Awakening/Fates/Echoes had map sprites and then transitioned into 3D models. I wasn't really a fan of how Three Houses had 3D models on the map (I didn't play PoR or RD but I think they also had this?), but I do think it's cool how you can zoom in and walk around with the character and their battallion.

Also, from what I see on social media and somewhat on this forum, I can tell there is a lot of love shown for the Three Houses lords, although people tend to dislike Edelgard more often. I honestly really love Edelgard and agree with her viewpoints and her decision to go against the church. On the other hand, I am not a huge fan of Dimitri and I find him kinda annoying. His post time-skip appearance is really ugly and I dislike the sound of his voice. I don't think he's a poorly written or bad character; I just don't like him.

[Benice]

9 hours ago, Samven said:

FE7's story is good and I legitimately don't understand why people enjoy poking holes in it.

Generally, I'd say people complain because:

1. It ignores or overrules things FE6 said, and there were plenty of missed plot points, such as Hector having a half bother who is absent in FE7

2. The plot is very much a copypasta of TearRing Saga

3. Nergal's backstory is locked behind absurd and weird requirements, and even then, they mistranslated his true ending death quote.

4. The game is also filled with translation errors and oversights, as well as a few notably bad one-off bosses; Pascal is simply terrible and the black Fang often feels like a large plothole in itself.

5. Mark.

I'm not saying you can't like the plot, but there are tons of huge holes in it.

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, Benice said:

The plot is very much a copypasta of TearRing Saga

3. Nergal's backstory is locked behind absurd and weird requirements, and even then, they mistranslated his true ending death quote.

4. The game is also filled with translation errors and oversights, as well as a few notably bad one-off bosses; Pascal is simply terrible and the black Fang often feels like a large plothole in itself.

5. Mark.

...How many people have played TRS though? Barely any. I don't think thats a major reason for criticizing it. Also, only Gwenchaos and Carla are like FE7, nothing else really is in TRS.

And how can Mark be bad when Mark is barely a thing? Skip Lyn Mode and they don't exist at all. They're no Kris/Robin/Corrin/Byleth.

Nergal I'd pin as being the real reason to dislike FE7's plot for those who do. He is insanely irrational, makes sense given he is a husk of a human being consumed by the darkness he foolishly pursued. But that same irrationality means he misses chance after chance after chance to win it all, and thats bothersome.

Although, I would agree that the Black Fang as one very crappy league of assassins is another major reason to dislike FE7.

[Icelerate]

3 hours ago, Benice said:

4. The game is also filled with translation errors and oversights, as well as a few notably bad one-off bosses; Pascal is simply terrible and the black Fang often feels like a large plothole in itself.

 

The game states that he was so evil that even King Desmund was going to punish him for murdering innocents yet the Black Fang took him in despite the Black Fang being a group that kills those types of people. One of the dumbest plot points in any FE game. At least it is minor. 

[Benice]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

..How many people have played TRS though? Barely any. I don't think thats a major reason for criticizing it. Also, only Gwenchaos and Carla are like FE7, nothing else really is in TRS.

Ahaha, sorry, forgot about that being a Saint Rubenio-LP meme. It was an invalid point.

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And how can Mark be bad when Mark is barely a thing? Skip Lyn Mode and they don't exist at all. They're no Kris/Robin/Corrin/Byleth.

I've seen people get mad at Mark for being the first avatar in the series, which led to some inferior incarnations of them-plus the fact that he barely exists and feels kinda shoehorned. I don't think he's as bad as Corrin or Kris, but I have heard people complain about Mark for various reasons, so I figured I should have mentioned it. Some people would consider him a strike against the game's writing.

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Although, I would agree that the Black Fang as one very crappy league of assassins is another major reason to dislike FE7.

I like how half of the one-offs you face were formerly one of the four fangs. I don't know why, but every time I see one of the four fangs, I laugh.

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

The game states that he was so evil that even King Desmund was going to punish him for murdering innocents yet the Black Fang took him in despite the Black Fang being a group that kills those types of people. One of the dumbest plot points in any FE game. At least it is minor. 

And he even became one of the four fangs. Fantastic.

Speaking of which, the oversights I was referring to were Bauker, Noble Lady of Caelin's boss, who is apparentky a legendary warrior, (even though he's unpromoted...) and is very gentle, but also issues the command to kill Florina instead of capturing her. He's kinda confused as a character.

And the next boss being the Knight Commander of Bern. That was a small oversight too.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Benice
High quality grammar right here

[Samven]

16 hours ago, Benice said:

Generally, I'd say people complain because:

1. It ignores or overrules things FE6 said, and there were plenty of missed plot points, such as Hector having a half bother who is absent in FE7

2. The plot is very much a copypasta of TearRing Saga

3. Nergal's backstory is locked behind absurd and weird requirements, and even then, they mistranslated his true ending death quote.

4. The game is also filled with translation errors and oversights, as well as a few notably bad one-off bosses; Pascal is simply terrible and the black Fang often feels like a large plothole in itself.

5. Mark.

I'm not saying you can't like the plot, but there are tons of huge holes in it.

 

Hmm.  "Moments of iffiness", perhaps, but "holes"?  Hardly.  The thing about Hector's half-brother, sure, that's an oversight - but I'd hardly call it a "huge hole" because none of it really breaks the story's internal consistency to me: it just constitutes a minor goof.  As far as a narrative goes, FE7 still makes sense from A to B.  Hero A wants to find Person B, goes to Island C to rescue him only to discover Conspiracy D led by Villain E, so he embarks on a journey to retrieve MacGuffin F to prevent Apocalypse G.  I'd say there was a plot hole if there was a massive gaping wound in the story that doesn't make any sense, like, say... to use a completely random example... "The protagonist's brother is a samurai who owns a vast network of ninja who are apparently capable of breaking into a pocket dimension but somehow have no idea why the neighbouring kingdom is invading unless some turncoat schlub spells it out for him in the other version of the game."  That, to me, would constitute a rather glaring oversight but FE7's missteps that you've listed so far seem to be relatively minor things.  You say that the Black Fang is a plot hole but... why?  Is it because we never heard about them in FE6?  I don't think that's such a big deal.  It's been 20 years, that's more than enough time for people to start moving on with their lives and for society to begin moving forward after the busting of a vigilante group.

Sure, there's a few things in translation, like the name of Nergal's wife, that are incorrect but again that doesn't really break the story.  It's just a minor mistake.  You can still comprehend 99% of what's happening in FE7.

And, if we're gonna talk boss quality... well, I say this as someone who loves FE4 but even His Holiness Pope Shouzou of Kaga ain't exactly what you'd call infallible when it comes to boss design.  Case in point: Do you remember Jacoban?  Probably not.  Dude exists for... what, two or three lines tops?

So, yeah.  Sure, I get it not being everyone's favourite FE - it's not even my fave - but I still can't really say that I understand why a few minor goofs mean people thinks its plot is terrible.

Edit: Just to throw another hat into the ring, my other controversial FE opinion is that Tokyo Mirage Sessions is an adequate game and I genuinely don't see why certain corners of the internet were so agitated about "censorship" just because someone's, if you'll all forgive my memery, quote-unquote "v a g i n a b o n e s" were removed.  I'd be more willing to call "censorship" if there had been some significant artistic or political statement that had been bowdlerised but, three and a bit chapters in, methinks that is not what happened to this game.  It seems so far to be a pretty standard, "High school dorks with superpowers" romp.  And, as such a game, it's, well, fine.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Samven
Adding TMS opinion.

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Samven said:

 

Hmm.  "Moments of iffiness", perhaps, but "holes"?  Hardly.  The thing about Hector's half-brother, sure, that's an oversight - but I'd hardly call it a "huge hole" because none of it really breaks the story's internal consistency to me: it just constitutes a minor goof.  As far as a narrative goes, FE7 still makes sense from A to B.  Hero A wants to find Person B, goes to Island C to rescue him only to discover Conspiracy D led by Villain E, so he embarks on a journey to retrieve MacGuffin F to prevent Apocalypse G.  I'd say there was a plot hole if there was a massive gaping wound in the story that doesn't make any sense, like, say... to use a completely random example... "The protagonist's brother is a samurai who owns a vast network of ninja who are apparently capable of breaking into a pocket dimension but somehow have no idea why the neighbouring kingdom is invading unless some turncoat schlub spells it out for him in the other version of the game."  That, to me, would constitute a rather glaring oversight but FE7's missteps that you've listed so far seem to be relatively minor things.  You say that the Black Fang is a plot hole but... why?  Is it because we never heard about them in FE6?  I don't think that's such a big deal.  It's been 20 years, that's more than enough time for people to start moving on with their lives and for society to begin moving forward after the busting of a vigilante group.

Sure, there's a few things in translation, like the name of Nergal's wife, that are incorrect but again that doesn't really break the story.  It's just a minor mistake.  You can still comprehend 99% of what's happening in FE7.

And, if we're gonna talk boss quality... well, I say this as someone who loves FE4 but even His Holiness Pope Shouzou of Kaga ain't exactly what you'd call infallible when it comes to boss design.  Case in point: Do you remember Jacoban?  Probably not.  Dude exists for... what, two or three lines tops?

So, yeah.  Sure, I get it not being everyone's favourite FE - it's not even my fave - but I still can't really say that I understand why a few minor goofs mean people thinks its plot is terrible.

Edit: Just to throw another hat into the ring, my other controversial FE opinion is that Tokyo Mirage Sessions is an adequate game and I genuinely don't see why certain corners of the internet were so agitated about "censorship" just because someone's, if you'll all forgive my memery, quote-unquote "v a g i n a b o n e s" were removed.  I'd be more willing to call "censorship" if there had been some significant artistic or political statement that had been bowdlerised but, three and a bit chapters in, methinks that is not what happened to this game.  It seems so far to be a pretty standard, "High school dorks with superpowers" romp.  And, as such a game, it's, well, fine.

The coup plot point drives right off a cliff at some point. We never actually even find out if Elbert actually was in on it, or if he was faking being in on it, or if he had no relation to it whatsoever. It just stops being relevant entirely the moment you start heading towards the Dreaded Isle. People also take a lot of issue with how Nergal warps around the place taunting the party and showing how uber powerful he is, yet he doesn't actually kill any of the protagonists, just warps away. Athos also says the single Fire Dragon at the end of the game could destroy huanity in a month. Which I find so completely and blatantly false. For one it should be suffering from the environmental effects that caused Nils and Nian to have to take human form. And for another humanity managed to fight armies of dragons during the scouring, before they made the legendary weapons. Wyrmslayers and magic exist, the Fire Dragon will cause a lot of trouble for sure, but nowhere near enough to wipe out human society on Elibe and certainly not in such ridiculously short time frame (unless Elibe is the size of Fodlan where it's small enough to casually travel anywhere in a weekend). Only explanation I can find for that comment is that Athos is blatantly lying or wrong because he has a somewhat racist view of dragons (hmm, Fae is the only real dragon left in Arcadia, right? I wonder why...). The Fire Dragon also should be a fully intelligent being with motivations and opinions of its own yet it's treated like a rampaging monster with no explanation.

[Samven]

Mkay, so there's a lot to unpack there so I'm gonna take that point-by-point.

Quote

The coup plot point drives right off a cliff at some point. We never actually even find out if Elbert actually was in on it, or if he was faking being in on it, or if he had no relation to it whatsoever. It just stops being relevant entirely the moment you start heading towards the Dreaded Isle.

Yeah, see, that strikes me as a fair criticism.  I like FE7 just fine and even I would rather like to know what the story behind Eliwood's old man being there was.

That being said, it isn't a story-breaker.  Whether or not Elbert was indeed a conspirator, it's clear enough that he is not for Nergal attempting to bring dragons through the Dragon's Gate and destroy the world.  Again, it's a mistake but it's not a story-breaking plothole.

 

Quote

People also take a lot of issue with how Nergal warps around the place taunting the party and showing how uber powerful he is, yet he doesn't actually kill any of the protagonists, just warps away.

That's... basically how 90% of all JRPG villains are TBH.  I grant that it's annoying, it's just not a plothole.

 

Quote

Athos also says the single Fire Dragon at the end of the game could destroy huanity in a month. Which I find so completely and blatantly false. For one it should be suffering from the environmental effects that caused Nils and Nian to have to take human form. And for another humanity managed to fight armies of dragons during the scouring, before they made the legendary weapons. Wyrmslayers and magic exist, the Fire Dragon will cause a lot of trouble for sure, but nowhere near enough to wipe out human society on Elibe and certainly not in such ridiculously short time frame (unless Elibe is the size of Fodlan where it's small enough to casually travel anywhere in a weekend).

Au contraire:

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Athos: “What a calamity! If dragons return to this world… The continent will be ash in less than a month!!”

Dragons.  Plural.  Athos says that, "If dragons return" (meaning, the entirety of the species) "[T]he continent will be ash in less than a month!!"

Which it most probably would be.  Yes, magic and wyrmslayers and the Divine Weapons exist but the DWs have lost most of their power, as we hear in FE6; which means that in their current state they're basically just stronger wyrmslayers.  Wyrmslayers are certainly potent against draconic entities but they're not kryptonite.  You can't just wave one around and every dragon in a five-mile radius immediately drops dead.  They're weapons that are effective, yes, but they aren't necessarily one-hit-kills.

With the DWs effectively nerfed by the Ending Winter, humanity has lost its biggest trump card.  What's more, we don't necessarily know that wyrmslayers and the like could be mass-produced in-time for humanity to rout the dragons.  This is currently a time of (relative) peace: most schlubs have not got wyrmslayers to-hand ready for the day dragons come back, because they haven't had cause to in over 980 years.  By the time the armies of Elibe mobilise, it's highly likely that most people will be dead.  Medieval European governments couldn't even cope with the Black Death until it was far, far too late to do anything about it, what makes you think a similarly-developed setting will fare any better against sentient fire-breathing dragons who were kicked out of their home and may, depending on the dragons, very well harbour a grudge towards those who booted them out?  Sure, Nils and Ninian didn't but do they speak for the entirety of their race?  We don't see enough dragons in the Elibe duology to really tell how dragons as a whole feel about humanity.  Maybe they're past it, maybe they're still mostly narked off.  We just don't know.

But, either way, considering that humanity started the war, I'd be willing to bet that whether they want it or not won't matter.  The moment people see dragons come back, they'll probably do something stupid to aggravate them and the whole Scouring will start all over again.

 

Quote

Only explanation I can find for that comment is that Athos is blatantly lying or wrong because he has a somewhat racist view of dragons (hmm, Fae is the only real dragon left in Arcadia, right? I wonder why...)

 

Methinks this is trying significantly too hard to find fault with a line that, in all honesty, the devs probably just used for dramatic exaggeration.  This is not a Cerebus Retcon.

 

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The Fire Dragon also should be a fully intelligent being with motivations and opinions of its own yet it's treated like a rampaging monster with no explanation.

Yeah, okay, that's a valid criticism but, again, it's a goof: not a plot hole.  A mistake to be sure but not one that breaks the game.  Presumably the writers just didn't have time to give the Fire Dragon a complex motive and a backstory.  It happens all the time in game dev.  So, yeah, a bit of a disappointment but it's not a plot-breaker.

This is kind of what I mean when I say that I don't really get why FE7's plot catches so much flak.  It makes mistakes, sure, what story doesn't?  But compared to other narratives I've seen, its mistakes are relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.  Nothing really stops the story from making any sense.  That doesn't mean you have to objectively like it and it's the best thing ever, of course not, I just don't really see why pretty small little errors can sincerely be held up as massive gaping plot holes.

[Jotari]

27 minutes ago, Samven said:

 

Au contraire:

Dragons.  Plural.  Athos says that, "If dragons return" (meaning, the entirety of the species) "[T]he continent will be ash in less than a month!!"

Which it most probably would be.  Yes, magic and wyrmslayers and the Divine Weapons exist but the DWs have lost most of their power, as we hear in FE6; which means that in their current state they're basically just stronger wyrmslayers.  Wyrmslayers are certainly potent against draconic entities but they're not kryptonite.  You can't just wave one around and every dragon in a five-mile radius immediately drops dead.  They're weapons that are effective, yes, but they aren't necessarily one-hit-kills.

With the DWs effectively nerfed by the Ending Winter, humanity has lost its biggest trump card.  What's more, we don't necessarily know that wyrmslayers and the like could be mass-produced in-time for humanity to rout the dragons.  This is currently a time of (relative) peace: most schlubs have not got wyrmslayers to-hand ready for the day dragons come back, because they haven't had cause to in over 980 years.  By the time the armies of Elibe mobilise, it's highly likely that most people will be dead.  Medieval European governments couldn't even cope with the Black Death until it was far, far too late to do anything about it, what makes you think a similarly-developed setting will fare any better against sentient fire-breathing dragons who were kicked out of their home and may, depending on the dragons, very well harbour a grudge towards those who booted them out?  Sure, Nils and Ninian didn't but do they speak for the entirety of their race?  We don't see enough dragons in the Elibe duology to really tell how dragons as a whole feel about humanity.  Maybe they're past it, maybe they're still mostly narked off.  We just don't know.

 

You know even if we take it to mean every single dragon beyond the gate is coming back, that 1, doesn't solve the issue that they literally can't exist in Elibe's atmosphere without converting into manaketes like Nils and Ninian (and Yahn and Idoun), which does genuinely seem like a plot hole. And 2, yeah, I still completely dispute the fact that they could wipe out Elibe in less than a month still seems highly unlikely. Humanity managed to fair well enough against the dragons the first time around that the humans birth rate gave them an edge. That was before the legendary weapons were created. So that suggests a conflict that happened over a period of decades without one side wiping out the other, significantly longer than less than a month. Really the reason for this line is the same reason the Fire Dragon has so much more impressive a sprite than little old Yahn. They just wanted an excuse for a big hyped up final boss since Nergal isn't a big powerful monster. The story however didn't really prop this final battle up.

27 minutes ago, Samven said:

Me thiks this is trying significantly too hard to find fault with a line that, in all honesty, the devs probably just used for dramatic exaggeration.  This is not a Cerebus Retcon.

Yeah, that was me making a joke. Athos is clearly not meant to be depicted as a racist.

[Whisky]

50 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You know even if we take it to mean every single dragon beyond the gate is coming back, that 1, doesn't solve the issue that they literally can't exist in Elibe's atmosphere without converting into manaketes like Nils and Ninian (and Yahn and Idoun), which does genuinely seem like a plot hole.

I agree. I really think everything about that Fire Dragon is a giant inconsistency.

FE7 has a lot of problems with the plot, I’d recommend watching the Plinkett Emblem critique of it to see what they are. They might not all bother you and you might not consider them all to be big issues, but their are some pretty big problems and a lot of smaller ones. I still enjoy the game but there are plot holes in it.

[Samven]

 

23 hours ago, Jotari said:

You know even if we take it to mean every single dragon beyond the gate is coming back, that 1, doesn't solve the issue that they literally can't exist in Elibe's atmosphere without converting into manaketes like Nils and Ninian (and Yahn and Idoun), which does genuinely seem like a plot hole. And 2, yeah, I still completely dispute the fact that they could wipe out Elibe in less than a month still seems highly unlikely. Humanity managed to fair well enough against the dragons the first time around that the humans birth rate gave them an edge. That was before the legendary weapons were created. So that suggests a conflict that happened over a period of decades without one side wiping out the other, significantly longer than less than a month. Really the reason for this line is the same reason the Fire Dragon has so much more impressive a sprite than little old Yahn. They just wanted an excuse for a big hyped up final boss since Nergal isn't a big powerful monster. The story however didn't really prop this final battle up.

Yeah, that was me making a joke. Athos is clearly not meant to be depicted as a racist.

Oh, I certainly agree on the Fire Dragon getting very hyped up for somewhat-arbitrary reasons.  I'm certainly not saying that I think that was the game's best idea.

I do, however, think that it's still very possible for dragons to take over.  Just because they need to use dragonstones does not mean that they aren't still powerful.  Powerful in bursts, perhaps, but a good strategist could work around that rather easily.  You could use wave attacks; sending in one squad to attack with their stones while another recoups and regains their strength or something.  Sort of like what Oda Nobunaga did with rifles, only with dragons.  That's just the most obvious example that I can think of on the top of my head.

There's also the fact that humans are far more divided now than they seem to have been during the war.  The current nations were founded after the Scouring, which to me at least implies that humanity was much more unified in the past.  Now, though, the bonds of brotherhood that once united the species just aren't there in the same way.  A big part of The Binding Blade's story is that it didn't take a whole lot of effort for Bern to divide and conquer the other countries because a large portion of them were thinking about themselves rather than their countries.  If Roy hadn't stepped up to lead the resistance, Bern would have won that war.

Even then, recognising that, "the continent could be reduced to ash" doesn't necessarily mean that humans are going to win.  Pyrrhic victories are also possible: humans could win, but all their infighting and squabbling during the opening months/years could give the dragons so much of a head-start that success comes at an incredible cost.  I'd argue that we have a pretty good model for that in real life to compare the situation to.  The planet is as close to being literally on fire as it can be without the sun imploding, thanks to climate change, and yet so many powerful leaders and governments are still doing the square root of nothing about it.  Not without first asking the question of, "But what do we get out of it?"  Even if we do manage to turn the tide of this particular fight, at this point it's not going to come without cost.
 

23 hours ago, Whisky said:

I agree. I really think everything about that Fire Dragon is a giant inconsistency.

FE7 has a lot of problems with the plot, I’d recommend watching the Plinkett Emblem critique of it to see what they are. They might not all bother you and you might not consider them all to be big issues, but their are some pretty big problems and a lot of smaller ones. I still enjoy the game but there are plot holes in it.

Oh, I certainly don't doubt that it has faults.  Like I said, it's not my fave and I certainly don't consider it the best-written story in the series.  It's just that, after hearing so many people, including some rather prominent FEtubers say things like, "This game is the worst game ever and literally killed my son and also it's bad" I was kind of expecting that maybe there was some big massive gaping logic wound that I'd overlooked.  Something on the level of the Blood Pact or Ryoma having spies who can break into Corrin's castle in a parallel universe but not determine why Garon has started the war in the first place.

I certainly recognise when mistakes are made and I don't have any real defence for the localisation staff just making up stuff.  However, when I hear that a game's story is bad-bad, I expect it to be... well... bad.  This one just strikes me as being flawed.  Neither are perfectly, certainly, but the one does not inherently imply the other.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Samven

[Etrurian emperor]

On 8/10/2020 at 3:45 AM, Jotari said:

People also take a lot of issue with how Nergal warps around the place taunting the party and showing how uber powerful he is, yet he doesn't actually kill any of the protagonists, just warps away.

I think this one is usually blown a bit out of proportion. Going from memory Eliwood and co meet Nergal three times before the final battle. 

-One of them is the Dragon Gate where Nergal can't kill the party because he's got a knife sticking out of his back. 
-The second one is where Nergal comes to nab Ninian or Nils. At the end he does accomplish that and takes off with Ninian. She surrenders himself on the explicit condition he leaves the others alone which Nergal considers a fine enough arrangement. Now Nergal double crossing that deal and Athos really putting a stop to that would probably be more interesting but its fine as is. 
-The third time is when Nergal comes to gloat about Ninian's death. When Athos engages him he claims to spare the group because Athos is his old buddy and out of respect for that past friendship he'll spare them. Not the greatest reason in the world but its a reason. 

So the criticism that Nergal just repeatedly leaves his enemies alive for the lulz does lack a bit of nuance. The three times he spares the party there are at least reasons for why he might have done so. 

Just letting the Heroes wander around while you could have killed them is a time honored Fire Emblem tradition anyway. Gharnef could have easily snuffed out Marth in Khadein but he didn't, and unlike Nergal he didn't have a reason for letting Marth of the hook. In fact it resulted in Mart taking his personal fiefdom, the one so important to Gharnef that not being given dominion of it is what caused him to become crazy in the first place. We also have Julius repeatedly warping on the battlefield at a time where Seliph has neither Tyrfring nor Naga. He could have easily destroyed the rebels after saving Ishtar or Arion. In Binding Blade Zephiel had no particular reason to just leave the battlefield after defeating Cecillia and Narcian of course repeatedly can't be bothered to fight Roy. The Black Knight even makes it a point to keep Ike alive precisely so he can fight him for the lulz when Ike has grown strong enough. 

Fire Emblem is a series where the main villains are often all powerful and able to teleport right in front of the heroes if they desired. Its a bit selective to hold it against Nergal in particular. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Etrurian emperor