What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Ottservia]

14 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

What is this subjectivity shit. Cultural differences and available alternatives does negate the concept of value judgements.

All I’m saying is that you shouldn’t dissmiss something for being bad or not making sense without trying to understand it or the cultural influences behind it. Take Xander for example. People like to call him an idiot for siding with Garon in birthright or that if he knows Garon is bad then it doesn’t make sense for him to do nothing about it. The thing is Xander’s character makes more sense when you realize how important familial blood ties are in Japan. Japan is a very collectivist society and as such value family a lot. Also speaking out against family or your superiors is very much looked down on in Japan and to do so is actually really rude. So when you look it from that perspective, Xander’s character makes much more sense.

Or hell even the “Loli characters being fetishized” can work simply because a lot of Japanese women look really young for their age. The average height is only really about 5 feet. It’s because of that they fetishize sort of that younger looking appearance because it is in line with their cultural beauty standards. Is it right for us to say that sort of thing is wrong? I don’t think so cause again it’s a different culture and we should respect said culture.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Ottservia

[Shrimpica]

Ah Loli wars. Sure the most important thing for people to argue about. Where people discuss how characters look and not how they act and who they are. Surely we need to ban short people from FE.

And let's cover every piece of skin possible.

And minimum height for every character should be 2 meters.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Shrimperor

[Eltosian Kadath]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Take Xander for example. People like to call him an idiot for siding with Garon in birthright or that if he knows Garon is bad then it doesn’t make sense for him to do nothing about it. The thing is Xander’s character makes more sense when you realize how important familial blood ties are in Japan. Japan is a very collectivist society and as such value family a lot. Also speaking out against family or your superiors is very much looked down on in Japan and to do so is actually really rude. So when you look it from that perspective, Xander’s character makes much more sense.

Seeing as Xander is from Nohr, the vaguely European counter part to the clearly Japanese Hoshidans, it sounds like the Fates writers failed in their portrayal of Xander. If Xander were part of the Japanese inspired Hoshidan family than that portrayal would make sense, but as it stands the writers failure to understand cultures beyond their own, despite their ambitions to portray a foreign culture.

 

 

31 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Ah Loli wars. Sure the most important thing for people to argue about. Where people discuss how characters look and not how they act and who they are. Surely we need to ban short people from FE.

How these characters act is often a big part of peoples issues with them. If Nowi didn't act as childish as she looks the 1000 year old dragon defense would not be as derided as it is.

[Shrimpica]

1 minute ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

How these characters act is often a big part of peoples issues with them

Rarely, if ever happens. It's 99% of the time how they look

Edited September 30, 2020 by Shrimperor

[Eltosian Kadath]

Just now, Shrimperor said:

Rarely, if ever happens. It's 99% how they look

Do you have an example of a Fire Emblem Loli that gets derided but doesn't act childish?

[Shrimpica]

Just now, Eltosian Kadath said:

Do you have an example of a Fire Emblem Loli that gets derided but doesn't act childish?

The Fates Dark Mage, whatever her name was.

I don't like her myself, but she acts more like a grandma than anything.

Yet people hate on her for loli.

[Ottservia]

2 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Seeing as Xander is from Nohr, the vaguely European counter part to the clearly Japanese Hoshidans, it sounds like the Fates writers failed in their portrayal of Xander. If Xander were part of the Japanese inspired Hoshidan family than that portrayal would make sense, but as it stands the writers failure to understand cultures beyond their own, despite their ambitions to portray a foreign culture.

I still think it’s dissmissive of japanese culture to say Xander’s character doesn’t make sense. My point was more so was that Xander’s character makes more sense(and is thereby more relatable) to a Japanese audience because his struggles are indicative of their culture. If you want another example just look at Gilbert who’s struggles and conflicts are based in the bushido code of honor than our western understanding of chivalry which is why people criticize him for not making sense. His struggles make more sense to a Japanese audience than it does to a western one.

 

2 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Do you have an example of a Fire Emblem Loli that gets derided but doesn't act childish?

Nyx and Nowi actually when you think about it. Throw sothis and flayn in there as well.

[ping]

Criticism of a specific aspect of a piece of Japanese media =/= denigration of Japanese culture as a whole.

Heck, criticism of one aspect of Japanese cuture =/= denigration of Japanese culture as a whole.

Spoiler

Also, I'm German and smugly talking other countries down is an integral part of our political culture and it would be insensitive to criticize me for it.

 

[Samz707]

3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

For you maybe but it doesn’t bring down my experience cause personally I can look past it. If you wanna call it contrived or unrealistic fine but know that suspension of disbelief is completely subjective and that storytelling is inherently contrived and unrealistic as I expressed earlier in this thread. I mean if it bothers you whatever but to suggest that it’s bad simply because you don’t like it is a little disrespectful to the culture and developers this game was made from. Again it’s a little ethnocentric to suggest that they shouldn’t appeal to their Japanese audience this way.

I don't see how thinking "Hey this character who's supposed to be shy opens up to my terrible self-insert in less than 2 hours of gameplay, it's like they didn't even try to have her even somewhat open up." and feeling like the writer didn't try is related to Culture, I'd hate it if was a French, American, Russian or Polish game.

While it was a bit much, Florina and Hector's support in Fe7 took a while to build and they only started talking in their last one, Bernie should probably have only opened up at her B support and roughly half-way through the game with a player that's actively trying to raise her support.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Samz707

[Eltosian Kadath]

1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

The Fates Dark Mage, whatever her name was.

I don't like her myself, but she acts more like a grandma than anything.

Yet people hate on her for loli.

Presumably you mean Nyx, whom tends to get a lot less flack due to how she acts. To give this a bit of credence a did a quick look at the search results on the SF forum for Loli and Nyx, which has only 2 pages show up, and to go a bit further in 11 of 25 entries on the first page are about why the way she acts redeems her, comparing that to Nowi and Loli having 9 pages, and I didn't recognize any attempts to redeem her character listed on the first page. How these characters act has a significant impact on how much hate they receive for being a "loli".

 

58 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I still think it’s dissmissive of japanese culture to say Xander’s character doesn’t make sense. My point was more so was that Xander’s character makes more sense(and is thereby more relatable) to a Japanese audience because his struggles are indicative of their culture. If you want another example just look at Gilbert who’s struggles and conflicts are based in the bushido code of honor than our western understanding of chivalry which is why people criticize him for not making sense. His struggles make more sense to a Japanese audience than it does to a western one.

I thinks its more illustrative of ethnocentrism on the part of the Fates writer. They tried to portray a character from outside their ethogroup, made even more explicit due to having clear representations of their own ethnogroup to compare to, and failed so hard that only by looking through their own cultural lens can the character make sense. Hoshido is clearly set up to be culturally Japanese, and Xander is from an explicitly different cultural group, so having his struggle be indicative of the culture he is explicitly not a part of is a failure on the writers part.

Gilbert's case is very different, for one that there aren't blatant representation of fantasy Japanese around who are meant to have foreign, and conflicting cultural ideals to his own, plus the story he is in clearly takes inspiration from the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which introduces Chinese cultural influences and idea, implying more of a cultural mixing pot. Gilbert's case isn't a blatant failure like Xander's is, as Three houses isn't anywhere close to as culturally coded as Fates was, and as such has a lot more wiggle room for debate about what kind of honor code he would be dealing with.

 

58 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Nowi actually when you think about it.

...sigh I guess I spent too much time taking your comments seriously when you are clearly arguing in bad faith.

 

[Shrimpica]

7 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

How these characters act has a significant impact on how much hate they receive for being a "loli".

Doubt [x]

Even Nyx, which still has too much hate just for being loli, even if some people accept her.

There're also ones like Flayn and Sothis, who get hate for being 'loli'. If you can even call Flayn 'loli'

And the FE fanbase isn't just SF.

[Ottservia]

25 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

I don't see how thinking "Hey this character who's supposed to be shy opens up to my terrible self-insert in less than 2 hours of gameplay, it's like they didn't even try to have her even somewhat open up." and feeling like the writer didn't try is related to Culture, I'd hate it if was a French, American, Russian or Polish game.

Okay fine if you don’t like it whatever. But don’t say it’s bad writing because you don’t like it. That is simply close minded and arrogant if you ask me. 

 

26 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

While it was a bit much, Florina and Hector's support in Fe7 took a while to build and they only started talking in their last one, Bernie should probably have only opened up at her B support and roughly half-way through the game with a player that's actively trying to raise her support.

You see this is my fucking problem. STOP COMPARING SHIT LIKE THIS!!!! It is reductive and dismissive and close minded and it bothers me. Apologies for getting heated but wanna know why I hate comparison like this? Cause shocks of all shocks different stories are in fact different. Every story should not be held to the same standard. Not every story is the same nor should you expect them to be the same. To say otherwise is simply dismissive of the vast number of different ways stories can be told. You can’t apply universal rules to storytelling or just art in general. It’s fucking art. It’s a form of expression. Different people will create different art and we shouldn’t be dismissive of the different ways people choose to express their art and ideas. That is simply disrespectful. When you compare two things, it shouldn’t be X is worse than Y for not being Y. It should be X and Y are interesting for being X and Y. Because what if X had no intention of being Y. It’s like criticizing a fucking horror movie for not being funny like a comedy. A horror movie has no intention of being a comedy so the comparison makes no sense. There’s a difference between critical comparison and bad faith debate alright. I apologize for the rant but this kind of thing really grinds my gears.

 

46 minutes ago, ping said:

Criticism of a specific aspect of a piece of Japanese media =/= denigration of Japanese culture as a whole.

Heck, criticism of one aspect of Japanese cuture =/= denigration of Japanese culture as a whole.

  Reveal hidden contents

Also, I'm German and smugly talking other countries down is an integral part of our political culture and it would be insensitive to criticize me for it.

 

My point is that we shouldn’t dissmiss things for not making sense or not mattering when you could instead try to figure out why it makes sense or why it matters. 
 

45 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

As for the dev comment, so? even if they tried hard, that doesn't mean I'm obligated to act like it's good, The monestary has everyone in a bunch of stock standing still poses that don't fit half the time so they might as well be t-posing. (After all, we all go to the training grounds to just stand stock still, unmoving and not speaking to anyone right?) Am I not allowed to dislike the monestary because of the amount of time that went into it?

No you’re alowed to dislike things but there’s a difference between simply disliking something and bad faith debate.

5 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

sigh I guess I spent too much time taking your comments seriously when you are clearly arguing in bad faith.

 

Y’see this is what I mean about being dissmissive. Maybe instead of just writing Nowi off as baseless loli pandering you could maybe try to better understand her character and why she is written the way she is. You know instead of dismissing the character as lacking depth maybe it’s there but you’re just not seeing. 

[ping]

Every time I see a child character being called a "loli" I'm a little more convinced that Anime was, in fact, a horrible mistake.

[Samz707]

51 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

 

You see this is my fucking problem. STOP COMPARING SHIT LIKE THIS!!!! It is reductive and dismissive and close minded and it bothers me. Apologies for getting heated but wanna know why I hate comparison like this? Cause shocks of all shocks different stories are in fact different. Every story should not be held to the same standard. Not every story is the same nor should you expect them to be the same. To say otherwise is simply dismissive of the vast number of different ways stories can be told. You can’t apply universal rules to storytelling or just art in general. It’s fucking art. It’s a form of expression. Different people will create different art and we shouldn’t be dismissive of the different ways people choose to express their art and ideas. That is simply disrespectful. When you compare two things, it shouldn’t be X is worse than Y for not being Y. It should be X and Y are interesting for being X and Y. Because what if X had no intention of being Y. It’s like criticizing a fucking horror movie for not being funny like a comedy. A horror movie has no intention of being a comedy so the comparison makes no sense. There’s a difference between critical comparison and bad faith debate alright. I apologize for the rant but this kind of thing really grinds my gears.

Tone doesn't really matter here.

They're both relatively same tone fantasy games and frankly that is also irrelevant, one fiction has a shy character actually take time to get over her fear about interacting with another person (Just men in general instead of everything like Bernie) and while they fail kinda, they don't suddenly get over it while Bernie, with her presecution complex (Actually if it's so severe she apparently thinks Byleth will murder her if you prupose to her at the end, wouldn't she turn down food from Byleth? now that I'm thinking about it.) is practically ignored, sure she still runs off at the end but for a C support, which in my case was giving her food a bunch of times and suddenly she's more ok with me than other people, because I threw food at her a few times and literally nothing else, even as it's own thing, it's terrible to be frank and it doesn't come off like a "Vision," it comes off like a hack writer who just realized they don't actually have any good way to make Bernie open up to Byleth and is just going to have them suddenly open up and pray the player somehow doesn't notice. 

One character takes time to get over it while the other person got relatively over it as my literal first support in all of Three Houses, before my first battle where people could even die.

If X and Y are similar things, yes, you can bring them both up to compare how one fails and one doesn't, this idea that you cant compare anything because of "Art and ideas" isn't sensible frankly and comes across as highly pretentious., if an idea is bad and one of the ways to show it's bad is comparing how another idea didn't screw up, you can do that.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Samz707

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Y’see this is what I mean about being dissmissive. Maybe instead of just writing Nowi off as baseless loli pandering you could maybe try to better understand her character and why she is written the way she is. You know instead of dismissing the character as lacking depth maybe it’s there but you’re just not seeing. 

First off, I´m pretty sure that´s not what EK meant.

Secondly, let me try what you wrote - attempting to understand Nowi and why she´s written that way– keep in mind my Awakening support knowledge is limited.

Nowi is a ~1k year old Manakete. She tends to behave in a childish fashion.

Why does she act childish?

Looking at her interaction with other people and her environment she does this because… I actually don´t 100% understand. She seems to consider herself something akin to the class clown of the Sheperds, trying to better Morale, but at the same time she´s also just really afraid of being alone again when everybody is going to die, so she´s trying to have the maximum amount of fun before they leave permanently.

Why is she written that way?

I see 2 possible reasons:

-) She´s actually a metaphor for the struggle of humans with age – whether it be the elderly afraid of being left behind by their significant other and friends due to dying of age or just generally the passing of time being hella scary.

-) with a look at Nowis rather… carefree supports, the fact this scared attitude doesn´t come through all that often and the fact there seems to be a certain archetype for it that is well received – baseless loli pandering.

Did I miss something?

Edited September 30, 2020 by Imuabicus

[Ottservia]

3 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

Tone doesn't really matter here.

They're both relatively same tone fantasy games and frankly that is also irrelevant, one fiction has a shy character actually take time to get over her fear about interacting with another person (Just men in general instead of everything like Bernie) and while they fail kinda, they don't suddenly get over it while Bernie, with her presecution complex (Actually if it's so severe she apparently thinks Byleth will murder her if you prupose to her at the end, wouldn't she turn down food from Byleth? now that I'm thinking about it.) is practically ignored, sure she still runs off at the end but for a C support, which in my case was giving her food a bunch of times and suddenly she's more ok with me than other people, because I threw food at her a few times and literally nothing else, even as it's own thing, it's terrible to be frank and it doesn't come off like a "Vision," it comes off like a hack writer who just realized they don't actually have any good way to make Bernie open up to Byleth and is just going to have them suddenly open up and pray the player somehow doesn't notice. 

One character takes time to get over it while the other person got relatively over it as my literal first support in all of Three Houses.

If X and Y are similar things, yes, you can bring them both up to compare how one fails and one doesn't, this idea that you cant compare anything because of "Art and ideas" isn't sensible frankly, if an idea is bad and one of the ways to show it's bad is comparing how another idea didn't screw up, you can do that.

I don’t necessarily disagree with this notion but Bernie isn’t a worse character for not being handled just like Florina. Just because Bernadetta is handled in a way that’s different from the way you’ve seen it handled before. That doesn’t make it bad and that’s my point. Again they’re different characters. They share a base archetype but they are handled differently. If all shy characters were handled the exact same way that would be pretty fucking boring. I don’t think comparison in it of itself is bad but when you do compare things for the sake of strengthening your argument then you have to be careful because to compare two things like that is inherently disregarding the subtle nuances that make them different or the intent of why the characters were written in the ways that they were. You shouldn’t have to throw one thing under the bus to make something else look good. If something is good you shouldn’t really need the comparison to explain why it’s good. The same is kind of true the other way around. It’s fine to bring up examples of what it looks like when done well to help better define your argument but don’t say X is bad for not being Y. Like Bernadetta does not benefit from being written the exact same way as Florina. Bernadetta benefits from being written like Bernadetta.  

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, ping said:

Every time I see a child character being called a "loli" I'm a little more convinced that Anime was, in fact, a horrible mistake.

Can we condemn American adult cartoons to the "great errors of humanity" pile too? For whatever makes me eyeroll at anime, the Western stuff makes me want to puke.

[Ottservia]

20 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

First off, I´m pretty sure that´s not what EK meant.

Secondly, let me try what you wrote - attempting to understand Nowi and why she´s written that way– keep in mind my Awakening support knowledge is limited.

Nowi is a ~1k year old Manakete. She tends to behave in a childish fashion.

Why does she act childish?

Looking at her interaction with other people and her environment she does this because… I actually don´t 100% understand. She seems to consider herself something akin to the class clown of the Sheperds, trying to better Morale, but at the same time she´s also just really afraid of being alone again when everybody is going to die, so she´s trying to have the maximum amount of fun before they leave permanently.

Why is she written that way?

I see 2 possible reasons:

-) She´s actually a metaphor for the struggle of humans with age – whether it be the elderly afraid of being left behind by their significant other and friends due to dying of age or just generally the passing of time being hella scary.

-) with a look at Nowis rather… carefree supports, the fact this scared attitude doesn´t come through all that often and the fact there seems to be a certain archetype for it that is well received – baseless loli pandering.

Did I miss something?

I mean why not both. I never said Nowi wasn’t loli pandering just that there was more to her than just loli pandering. From my understanding of her character she acts upbeat and happy in order to cope with the crippling loneliness that comes with outliving all your friends. She’s just generally an upbeat and optimistic person. This is best shown in her support with Tharja where she learns of the harsh truth that her parents are probably dead. She doesn’t take it well at first but in the end decides to not let it keep her down and keep acting positive. Another great showcase of this is in her harvest scramble convo with Tiki. Tiki says she hates the stars because it reminds her of her own loneliness because she views those stars as depictions of her long parted friends she has outlived. Nowi, after hearing this, recontextualizes for her by saying if the stars are all her friends then she’s never truly alone because they’re all watching over her. Nowi is more mature then she lets on. She may act a little childish but overall she just wants to be a positive person. Like I’m just saying don’t dissmiss the character as one dimensional when you could actually dig into the character and find that depth. Like or dislike things on their own merits and what they offer but don’t dissmiss them for not mattering when you could instead aim to find out why they do

[NaotoUzumaki]

The problem isnt just the fetishizes in games. Japan is a very insular culture in a ALMOST racist way.the Xbox flopped in Japan cause they didn’t like a Americans console having better specs than PlayStation or Nintendo. Their aim for selling is Japan first then the rest of the world. Foreign Student a way more bullied in Japan then elsewhere. Tales of the World. 2&3 never released Worldwide or got rerelease in this day and age. They understand other cultures but don’t want to change it. Avatar are an example of this. Easier to make players feel important with their fetishizes than having a D&D or CYOA or JumpChain style one since its easier for money.Its Why you will never get a Naruto/DBZ game where you truly change history with actual consequences. Imagine having a Naruto story where you Are Isekaied into Naruto Uzumaki himself and change the story for the better and Destroy the Author Actual Story and its Sequel just cause you’re playthrough makes more sense story wise. There insularity is to the point that Japan allows rip off of DBZ into other Shonen as a Saying it’s Flattering.Naruto would use Ultra Instinct they gonna ´ be ok cool bro´ but if Harry Potter used it they trow a shit fit 

[Samz707]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

I don’t necessarily disagree with this notion but Bernie isn’t a worse character for not being handled just like Florina. Just because Bernadetta is handled in a way that’s different from the way you’ve seen it handled before. That doesn’t make it bad and that’s my point. Again they’re different characters. They share a base archetype but they are handled differently. If all shy characters were handled the exact same way that would be pretty fucking boring. I don’t think comparison in it of itself is bad but when you do compare things for the sake of strengthening your argument then you have to be careful because to compare two things like that is inherently disregarding the subtle nuances that make them different or the intent of why the characters were written in the ways that they were. You shouldn’t have to throw one thing under the bus to make something else look good. If something is good you shouldn’t really need the comparison to explain why it’s good. The same is kind of true the other way around. It’s fine to bring up examples of what it looks like when done well to help better define your argument but don’t say X is bad for not being Y. Like Bernadetta does not benefit from being written the exact same way as Florina. Bernadetta benefits from being written like Bernadetta.  

You were saying what I was saying earlier with "ethocentric" and I'm pointing out how another Japanese game, in the same series, did it better.

Infact I was literally saying Florina's wasn't great either and said how Bernie's supports should have been different from both Florina and what we actually got.

The "Subtle Nuance" of Three House with Bernie is the devs didn't care (Like in general with the monestary to be blunt) in my opinion, Bernie allegedly always hid in class apparently, we see this once, in a CG cutscene, before Byleth starts teaching because why bother adding unique animations? she's totally gotten over it from the very first time we actually get control of Byleth after being a teacher and we have to be poorly told this, by Bernie, in her C support, which is some frankly next-level terrible "Tell, don't show." in my experience. (Because why add unique animations when clumsily poor exposition does the job totally just as well? what do you mean it creates a major disconnect when we have to be informed of something our protagonist would have personally seen for weeks?)

It's not "her shyness isn't done good" it's "They didn't even try beyond the bare minimum." (Having to talk to her through her door and I argue that's not even enough to qualify for bare-minimum.)

Does she eventually leave her room maybe if she gets enough supports with other characters to feel comfortable in the exploration stages? Nah it's plot-driven, in one route from what I heard. (probably Crimson Flower and more them forgetting to have her eventually leave the room in the other routes.)

Since she's paranoid about other people trying to harm her, does she say, Reject your gifts thinking they're traps of some kind initially? does she actually refuse to eat if you give her food, thinking it's poisoned? nah don't be silly, unique interactions for a character? why bother with that?

Does even the arguable absolute bare-minimum, that other games in the series have done for characters who either A: Don't want to interact with others (Florina) or B: Have a personality that doesn't make others want to interact with them (Serra) where their supports either A: Don't have them like other characters on the C support or B: take considerably longer to happen than other supports? Nah, why bother actually making it take longer so she's actually, you know, shy? that'd conflict with having Byleth being so cool and everyone liking them!

It doesn't come off in Three Houses like Bernie is actually shy in any meaningful way,  it comes off like the game claiming she's shy but then completely failing to actually include it in any meaningful way in the monetary to the point where she opens up to Byleth (who I seriously doubt has a friendly personality, being an emotionless mercenary killer.) before I've done my first perma-death battle in a Fire Emblem game.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Samz707

[Eltosian Kadath]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Y’see this is what I mean about being dissmissive. Maybe instead of just writing Nowi off as baseless loli pandering you could maybe try to better understand her character and why she is written the way she is. You know instead of dismissing the character as lacking depth maybe it’s there but you’re just not seeing. 

Fine I will humor this silliness. You posited that Nowi was an

3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

example of a Fire Emblem Loli that gets derided but doesn't act childish

with the objective statement

3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Nowi actually when you think about it.

without any evidence or explanation to backup such a contentious claim.

Now to do a quick test that shows whether or not she does act childish, I will now randomly select 5 supports conversations using a random number generator, as a way of sampling how she behaves.

Random  support 1:

Libra B support

The context is a bit strange, but Nowi is not particularly portrayed as childish .

 

Random support 2:

Ricken A support

While it started off fine it ends off with a very childish promise.

 

Random support 3:

Freidrick S support

The confession is literally I LIKE YOU like you, which is an extremely child-like way of expressing your love

 

Random support 4:

Robin (f) C support

Nowi displays an extremely child-like wonder at Robin's ability to throw a stone, asking Robin to teach her how to throw a stone, even literally uses a childish nonsense word of WOWZERS, the whole thing comes across as incredibly childish.

 

Random support 5:

Freidrick B support

The way she describes Freidricks hair, and laughing at her own comment comes across a rather childish, and the phrasing of how she tries to project her loneliness onto him does as well.

 

It isn't the only character trait she has, but with 4/5 showing her acting childish, I thinks it is fairly clear that it is a notable one. Nowi acting childish is both very noticeable, and a rather consistent character trait, and acting like it isn't comes across as ludicrous, especially when you do not even pretend to back up a claim that is so easily proven incorrect.

 

1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

Doubt [x]

Even Nyx, which still has too much hate just for being loli, even if some people accept her.

[...]

And the FE fanbase isn't just SF.

You are entirely free to try your own hand at some similar analysis, perhaps in other parts of the Fire Emblem fandom. I think you will be surprised by the results.

 

1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

 

There're also ones like Flayn and Sothis, who get hate for being 'loli'. If you can even call Flayn 'loli'

How recent Three houses has come out is clearly skewing things a bit with the kind of analysis I was using before, I was expecting this, although comparing the two together reveals some interesting results. Sothis has 2 pages already, while Flayn has under a page of results.

Now I was a bit surprised to see Flayn described as a Loli, and the limited results shows through a bit here. I will note that her "brother" does treat her like a child, but she comes across as roughly the same age as the other youths of the academy.

As for Sothis mere minutes into the game she is shown getting extremely defense about being perceived as childish entirely unprompted, and as C.S. Lewis so eloquently put it "To be concerned about being grownup, to admire the grownup because it is grownup, to blush at the suspicion of being childish, these things are the mark of childhood and adolescence, and in adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms.". One of the first impressions she gives in the game is of having child-like concern over appearing childish, and the way her voice acting comes across similar to a bratty kid doesn't help either, but it is less blatant than Nowi was.

[Ottservia]

12 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

It isn't the only character trait she has, but with 4/5 showing her acting childish, I thinks it is fairly clear that it is a notable one. Nowi acting childish is both very noticeable, and a rather consistent character trait, and acting like it isn't comes across as ludicrous, especially when you do not even pretend to back up a claim that is so easily proven incorrect.

I’m not saying Nowi doesn’t act childish cause she does as you pointed out but she’s more mature than she let’s on. There are a couple of supports that showcase this. Like I’m not disagreeing with your analysis here but I’m just saying to dissmiss her as just loli pandering is a little disingenuous. Cause she’s more than that and I feel like we should appreciate the things the character has to offer.

40 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

You were saying what I was saying earlier with "ethocentric" and I'm pointing out how another Japanese game, in the same series, did it better.

 

Because what you were saying earlier was a bit ethnocentric. Japanese game’s not pandering to western sensibilities is not a bad thing. Just because something Japanese culture does is something you don’t like doesn’t make it bad inherently. It’s just a part of their culture. You don’t like it fine but Japanese art is not worse for not appealing to your personal moral and cultural standards. 
 

 

45 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

It doesn't come off in Three Houses like Bernie is actually shy in any meaningful way,  it comes off like the game claiming she's shy but then completely failing to actually include it in any meaningful way in the monetary to the point where she opens up to Byleth (who I seriously doubt has a friendly personality, being an emotionless mercenary killer.) before I've done my first perma-death battle in a Fire Emblem game.

Y’see there’s something I can actually somewhat agree with. I don’t agree with your entire analysis cause it just kinda feels like you’re not even trying to understand the story and why it’s written the way it is but here it does seem like you are trying to understand the narrative. That’s all I really ask for in terms of narrative discussion and analysis. Try to understand the story without personal bias. Again, at least make an effort to understand what the story is trying to say with its individual components. I’m not forcing you to make that effort but if you’re going make legitimate criticisms against a story then I feel you should make that effort. Cause when you criticize a story you’re having a discussion with the author and you should show them basic respect. I don’t like the criticism of “the writer didn’t try” because they more than likely did and I feel it’s disrespectful to assume things like that. Again try to understand the story and meet it on its own terms. Judge by its own rules and not the rules you set for it.

[omegaxis1]

2 hours ago, Samz707 said:

You were saying what I was saying earlier with "ethocentric" and I'm pointing out how another Japanese game, in the same series, did it better.

Infact I was literally saying Florina's wasn't great either and said how Bernie's supports should have been different from both Florina and what we actually got.

The "Subtle Nuance" of Three House with Bernie is the devs didn't care (Like in general with the monestary to be blunt) in my opinion, Bernie allegedly always hid in class apparently, we see this once, in a CG cutscene, before Byleth starts teaching because why bother adding unique animations? she's totally gotten over it from the very first time we actually get control of Byleth after being a teacher and we have to be poorly told this, by Bernie, in her C support, which is some frankly next-level terrible "Tell, don't show." in my experience. (Because why add unique animations when clumsily poor exposition does the job totally just as well? what do you mean it creates a major disconnect when we have to be informed of something our protagonist would have personally seen for weeks?)

It's not "her shyness isn't done good" it's "They didn't even try beyond the bare minimum." (Having to talk to her through her door and I argue that's not even enough to qualify for bare-minimum.)

Does she eventually leave her room maybe if she gets enough supports with other characters to feel comfortable in the exploration stages? Nah it's plot-driven, in one route from what I heard. (probably Crimson Flower and more them forgetting to have her eventually leave the room in the other routes.)

Since she's paranoid about other people trying to harm her, does she say, Reject your gifts thinking they're traps of some kind initially? does she actually refuse to eat if you give her food, thinking it's poisoned? nah don't be silly, unique interactions for a character? why bother with that?

Does even the arguable absolute bare-minimum, that other games in the series have done for characters who either A: Don't want to interact with others (Florina) or B: Have a personality that doesn't make others want to interact with them (Serra) where their supports either A: Don't have them like other characters on the C support or B: take considerably longer to happen than other supports? Nah, why bother actually making it take longer so she's actually, you know, shy? that'd conflict with having Byleth being so cool and everyone liking them!

It doesn't come off in Three Houses like Bernie is actually shy in any meaningful way,  it comes off like the game claiming she's shy but then completely failing to actually include it in any meaningful way in the monetary to the point where she opens up to Byleth (who I seriously doubt has a friendly personality, being an emotionless mercenary killer.) before I've done my first perma-death battle in a Fire Emblem game.

Bernie is a case of how the writers played a case of someone that suffers severe anxiety as a joke.

Everything you hear from Bernie, every way that she acts, these are things that many people that suffers anxiety problems think in their heads. But they wrote her to voice it all out in the loudest way possible. 

However, even people with severe anxiety and trauma, even if they usually stay cooped up in their room, that doesn't mean that they never come out. They do and have to come out in various points. Bernie being shown to come out of the room at times is a case of when she has to, like in class. But the game DOES very much show that she will hide out in her room very much often, as proven in the Explore missions, when it's a free day and there are no classes. 

Only time that she's SHOWN to leave her room is in CF, when she is actually shown to be building up more confidence, but in non-CF routes, she will show to actually still stay in her room, because she didn't develop the confidence to truly leave her room. 

I think you're focusing on the "show don't tell" thing in all the wrong ways. Because this game DOES show Bernie's anxiety problems in the game itself, but you're treating it like they are telling us, rather than showing us. And that simply isn't true. 

[Samz707]

16 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Bernie is a case of how the writers played a case of someone that suffers severe anxiety as a joke.

Everything you hear from Bernie, every way that she acts, these are things that many people that suffers anxiety problems think in their heads. But they wrote her to voice it all out in the loudest way possible. 

However, even people with severe anxiety and trauma, even if they usually stay cooped up in their room, that doesn't mean that they never come out. They do and have to come out in various points. Bernie being shown to come out of the room at times is a case of when she has to, like in class. But the game DOES very much show that she will hide out in her room very much often, as proven in the Explore missions, when it's a free day and there are no classes. 

Only time that she's SHOWN to leave her room is in CF, when she is actually shown to be building up more confidence, but in non-CF routes, she will show to actually still stay in her room, because she didn't develop the confidence to truly leave her room. 

I think you're focusing on the "show don't tell" thing in all the wrong ways. Because this game DOES show Bernie's anxiety problems in the game itself, but you're treating it like they are telling us, rather than showing us. And that simply isn't true. 

Again, they never actually show her being uncomfortable in class aside from one time and have to very awkwardly tell us nor does her supports actually grow slower. (And like I said, she opened up to Byleth super early-game for getting her lunch twice and gardening with her exactly once shouldn't suddenly make her open up to the walking plank of wood.)

So her magically suddenly opening up to the crappy self-insert I feel does actually make no sense and undercuts her, since if she's so anxious and afraid of others, why does she trust the literal blank slate mercenary? Byleth doesn't strike me as someone with any personality traits that would make anyone afraid of others like them. 

In her Sylvian C support, it's him approaching her and she doesn't suddenly trust this one random person but she does randomly trust Byleth in their C-support, which is way too early for it to feel anything other than contrived avatar-worship. 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Samz707

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Samz707 said:

Again, they never actually show her being uncomfortable in class aside from one time and have to very awkwardly tell us nor does her supports actually grow slower. (And like I said, she opened up to Byleth super early-game for, getting her lunch twice and gardening with her exactly once shouldn't suddenly make her open up to the walking plank of wood.)

 

In other words, it's the game mechanics with the cafeteria and such where Bernie can be involved in. 

Also, EVERYONE gets close to Byleth almost immediately. And lorewise, it makes sense. Byleth is basically god.